BS: For those who love liberty

Subject: RE: BS: For those who love liberty
From: Big Mick
Date: 07 Nov 04 - 09:40 PM

Once again, you use falsehood much the same as the right. You figure that if you say a lie enough times, it will become true. Many sick folks that seek control use the same tactic. They also have a martyr complex, just as you do. The simple fact is that it is you that has been carrying the torch for separation from everyone else. Now that it is over, you are trying to act like it is others, who have consistently indicated the need for unity, that are being disengenous. But folks here ain't stupid, Maw. They see right through you.

The fact of the matter is that anyone who is left of center has only ever been able to win when they came together and found some common ground. The left is the sum of its parts, always has been and always will be. That is why Nader, the megalomaniac and union buster, has been a joke. He has been a pawn of the right, as he proved when he let the Republicans collect signatures and spend money to get him on the ballot.

The average working family will go center left, because it is a pocket book issue. It is only when we let the radical left be in charge of the agenda, hence alienating folks that otherwise want to vote with us, that we get in this mess. Read the numbers, idiot. The polls showed that folks agreed with our positions more than not.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: For those who love liberty
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Nov 04 - 04:13 PM

Frank, you and Mick are really sleazy and disingenuous, talking the talking now that your boy lost. You reactionary center-right Democrats will now stand alone. Why? Because of statements like this:

"We gotta' consolidate our base".

Your base WAS consolidated during this election cycle. But you spit in their faces.

"We need to preach to our choir, get them active and just as important, offer support to each other in our struggle to reclaim our country."

Oh please, don't make me laugh. You sold out your choir to Morgan Stanley.

And your pathetic terminology just dates you badly as tragically Old Left. Slinging around words like "the struggle" and "In brotherhood and sisterhood"? Sure. You've really got the pulse of the progressive left out here in the heartland, there Frank.

Subject: RE: BS: For those who love liberty
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 07 Nov 04 - 03:32 PM

This is great! I'm collecting all of these quotes for inspiration to remember what the Founding Fathers really were like.

Mick, I agree with you about consensus building so much! It's the only chance we have. We gotta' consolidate our base. We need to bring together those with different Left, Liberal or Socialist agendas and work together as they have on the Right. The Reactionary Right may have factionalism and shouting matches too but they get it together enough to whip our butts. We need to preach to our choir, get them active and just as important, offer support to each other in our struggle to reclaim our country. This means that Deaniacs, Naderites, Liberal Democrats, Environmental Greens, Unionists, Working people who want a decent wage, Business entrepeneurs who see the future of America as more important than the bottom line, Young people who are imbued with the idealism of what makes our country great and those others who oppose the rigid authorian, bigotted, pseudo-religous wide-eyed evangelists, hegemonic corporate-state monopolists and war-mongering Reactionary Right-wingers. In union there is strength.

In Brotherhood and Sisterhood,

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: For those who love liberty
From: Metchosin
Date: 07 Nov 04 - 02:50 PM

and if one truly believes that the truth will set you free.........

"Among the calamities of war may be jointly numbered the diminution of the love of truth, by the falsehoods which interest dictates and credulity encourages." (Samuel Johnson from The Idler, 1758)

Subject: RE: BS: For those who love liberty
From: GUEST,Patrick Henry
Date: 07 Nov 04 - 01:34 PM

Three from my good friend John Adams:


"Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people."
 




"Be not intimidated... nor suffer yourselves to be wheedled out of your liberties by any pretense of politeness, delicacy, or decency. These, as they are often used, are but three different names for hypocrisy, chicanery and cowardice."
 

"The jaws of power are always open to devour, and her arm is always stretched out, if possible, to destroy the freedom of thinking, speaking, and writing."

Patrick

Subject: RE: BS: For those who love liberty
From: GUEST,Clint Kelle
Date: 07 Nov 04 - 12:55 PM

dianavan: I'm sorry about that. I should've considered the source instead of assuming it was Ann Coulter.

Losing my sense of humor, I guess. Or gaining the gift of gullibility.

clint

Subject: RE: BS: For those who love liberty
From: Big Mick
Date: 07 Nov 04 - 12:44 PM

See, GUEST, this is just more of your sick trying to twist the truth. The simple fact is that it was you, and has been you, that has consistently called for being separate from the Dems. It has been you, in course and crude terms, who has vilified the concept of consensus building. You are a weak minded and poor excuse for an intellectual. Your bitterness guides you, and the only time you are decent is when others agree with you. Besides that, your manners stink. In one thread you indicated you were a teacher. I cringe to think of the implications of that.

Democrats, liberals, and progressives need to remember where their strength lies. It is in bringing the disadvantaged, the average person, the labor folks, the environmentalists, bring them all together in an effective voting bloc. To do this requires finding common ground among often competing philosophies. But it can be done, and must be done, or these folks will keep kicking our asses. The rich will get richer, and the poor will get more desperate. That is a sure recipe for war in the streets. But I believe that is what you think you want. I can't wait for it to happen to you. It would be interesting to see your reaction.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: For those who love liberty
From: dianavan
Date: 07 Nov 04 - 03:38 AM

Clint - I was joking! Should have put a smiley.

d

Subject: RE: BS: For those who love liberty
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 07 Nov 04 - 01:24 AM

"I think a benevolent autocrat might work well."

There's no such animal.

"Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely" That's Lord Acton, I believe. I've seen nothing to make me disagree.

Years ago I read an editorial that Acton was wrong, that in fact power often ennobles. He was talking about Richard Nixon, who had just been elected. He thought being president would make Nixon a better man, but the joke was on him, and all the rest of us, too.

clint

Subject: RE: BS: For those who love liberty
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Nov 04 - 12:46 AM

Like I said, the Democratic party needs progressives a whole lot more than progressives need the Democratic party.

Sure, you boys are all for a united front now that your guy lost.

You weren't talking united front two weeks ago, though. Then it was Death to the anti-Kerry progressives.

Soooooooo...don't think I'm ready to pay quite that high a price for the united front with the Clinton/Kerry Democrats, thank you very much.

Subject: RE: BS: For those who love liberty
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 07 Nov 04 - 12:27 AM

Good quotes, Frank. Thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: For those who love liberty
From: dianavan
Date: 06 Nov 04 - 08:39 PM

I think a benevolent autocrat might work well.

d

Subject: RE: BS: For those who love liberty
From: mack/misophist
Date: 06 Nov 04 - 07:48 PM

Liberty is a yoke as heavy as that of any tyrant. Which is why so many spurn it.

I said that.

Subject: RE: BS: For those who love liberty
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Nov 04 - 07:11 PM

Unfortunately Frank the progressive left is often stifled by the greed and corruption of the "democratic" centre..Ake

Subject: RE: BS: For those who love liberty
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 06 Nov 04 - 06:48 PM

Words of wisdom Mick.

Ake what the Reactionary NeoCons fear more than ever is an impatient and iimpassioned unified Liberal/Democrat base. We will be their worst nightmare.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: For those who love liberty
From: dianavan
Date: 06 Nov 04 - 06:48 PM

I agree that if everyone united in their desire to overcome right-wing reactionaries, liberty might have a chance. The latest election was a perfect example of divide and conquer.

d

Subject: RE: BS: For those who love liberty
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Nov 04 - 06:40 PM

What the conservative right love more than their mothers...A patient socialist....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: For those who love liberty
From: Big Mick
Date: 06 Nov 04 - 06:39 PM

Great stuff, Frank. I agree with you. That is the only problem I have with this GUEST. S/he advocates splitting at the time when we need unity. What folks always miss in this debate is that the progressive/liberal/Democrats are always the sum of their parts. It is only when we look for what we have in common that we can advance a more progressive agenda. Inevitably when the balance and intolerance get out of proportion, we always get beat. The good news is that the conservative element always wants to go back to the good old days, and that never works. The yearning for change will eventually cause folks to look for other solutions.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: For those who love liberty
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 06 Nov 04 - 06:36 PM

Thanks all. I am a Liberal and a Progressive, Guest. I believe it's time to
present a united front and oppose the Reactionary Right-wing. Let's not shoot ourselves in the foot again by in-fighting. We can make it if we stick together.

More from that great Liberal, Thomas Jefferson:


"A little patience, and we shall see the reign of witches pass over, their spells dissolve, and the people, recovering their true sight, restore their government to it's true principles. It is true that in the meantime we are suffering deeply in spirit, and incurring the horrors of a war and long oppressions of enormous public debt.....If the game runs sometimes against
us at home we must have patience till luck turns, and then we shall have an opportunity of winning back the principles we have lost, for this is a game where principles are at stake."

     --Thomas Jefferson, 1798, after the passage of the Sedition Act.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: For those who love liberty
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 06 Nov 04 - 03:31 PM

Liberty is one thing you can never be free of!!!!
Best wishes.

Subject: RE: BS: For those who love liberty
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Nov 04 - 03:30 PM

Thank you, Frank.

Subject: RE: BS: For those who love liberty
From: Big Mick
Date: 06 Nov 04 - 02:30 PM

Because he was a progressive while you were still trying to figure out what that is. And isn't it interesting that now you court him, when in the very recent past you were castigating him in the worse terms?

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: For those who love liberty
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Nov 04 - 02:27 PM

Hey frank, why not join the progressives instead of hanging with the loser Democrats?

Subject: RE: BS: For those who love liberty
From: Janie
Date: 06 Nov 04 - 02:24 PM

Thanks for posting that, Frank.

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: For those who love liberty
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 06 Nov 04 - 02:09 PM

Can't remember who said it, this struck a chord with me...

"those who are willing to sacrifice freedom for security, deserve neither freedom nor security"

Subject: BS: For those who love liberty
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 06 Nov 04 - 02:05 PM

This for those who love liberty and refuse to be bought out, controlled by fear-mongers and would-be dictators....here's what one of the Founding Fathers had to say.

To you who listen to the fearmongers, and prefer your
work and your "safety" to your freedom and democracy,
I give you the words of Samuel Adams, who wrote in
1776:

If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility
of servitude better than the animating contest of
freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your
counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which
feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and
may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen.

But in any case, the claims to protect us will be
betrayed by their brutality against us, and the wealth
is all theirs in the end. We refuse to hear them and
heed the call to abjure our rights. All who have
courage will stand up, walk out, and refuse to listen
to them, refuse their media, refuse their consolation
prizes, refuse their guilt, refuse their lies, refuse
their tyranny, and refuse their fake government!