BS: Ceramic Heaters

Subject: RE: BS: Ceramic Heaters
From: open mike
Date: 21 Oct 05 - 02:35 AM

the image brought to mind is one from a lodge where the gas burners
on the cooking stove have large inverted flower pots (ceramic) to radiate the heat given off..
this is sometimes done to heat rooms in places where the propane
supply in large enought to allow it. I wonder if there are any
fumes to worry about with this method?

sometimes a brick heated in or on a fireplace or woodstove
can be wrapped in layers of paper and or cloth and placed
under the covers to warm the feet of the bed. or a hot
water bottle or even a tightly sealed qt. or gallon juice bottle.

there are antique bed warmers that use cherry pits to hold the warmth
and long-handled pans that are rubbed between the blankets to take the chill off of the bed. should this be in the getting ready for winter thread?

Subject: RE: BS: Ceramic Heaters
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 20 Oct 05 - 10:45 PM

Our fans were purchased at different times, but they all have tip switches and multi-speed fans. One has a thermostat so once it reaches a level it turns off until it is needed to bring the room back to that level. Were I shopping for another ceramic heater, I'd pick up one of those.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Ceramic Heaters
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 20 Oct 05 - 06:28 PM

so, why do the refineries still do flare-off? (Rapaire)

I know you know really, but the flares are there for saftey. A pipe registers a big pressure drop, you shut it down and route it to the flare. If it's a false alarm, it's cost the comapny a bit of money. If it really has developed a leak, you've probably just prevented a huge leak, and stopped the plant blowing up. This generally a bad thing. repaet this for lots of scenarios...

You try very hard not to keep big tanks of intermediate products, so don't tend to have the capacity to store them. It's safer, and cheaper.Big tanks for feed stocks, and end products are another matter.*

BTW, I was studying Chemical engineering. Does it show?







* If you really care why, its simple. Products at either end of a process are often delivered/collected in bulk, so you need big tanks, which can be a safe distance from the main plant. Intermedite products occur in the middle of the process, so sticking a huge tank in the middle of the plant takes up valuable space, costs more money to maintain, and is at more risk from an accident than isolated tanks.

Subject: RE: BS: Ceramic Heaters
From: Rapparee
Date: 20 Oct 05 - 06:02 PM

I sent out a memo saying that the users had to use good sense. And that the units had to be both unplugged AND turned off when they were unattended.

I got rid of all the old units last year and bought new.

Subject: RE: BS: Ceramic Heaters
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 20 Oct 05 - 05:15 PM

SRS -

The rule they should enforce is to make sure that any personal heaters are equipped with overheat sensors and "tip switches," so they shut off at a safe temp if someone kicks their "snack bag" where it blocks the heat output, or if they're accidentally tipped over.

The simple phrase "space heater" spoken softly in a quiet barroom will immediately identify all the firepersons present, by the spilled drinks and nervous fidgeting that ensues.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Ceramic Heaters
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 20 Oct 05 - 05:13 PM

Thanks SRS. Argos over here is probably as good as I will do. With elsctrical goods, changing the sign to/from dollars/pounds is often a reasonable currency conversion.

We use an oil fired (no gas here) boiler here and it does most of the job pretty well. I'ts just nice to be able to get that little bit of extra heat once in a while. So I wouldn't be running it for hours on end at a time day in day out.

Subject: RE: BS: Ceramic Heaters
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 20 Oct 05 - 05:09 PM

Rap,

There are several folk in my library office who will soon be getting out their little heaters. They tuck very nicely down under your desk and keep a zone around your feet and legs nice and comfortable. Someone sent out a memo a while back that we weren't supposed to bring our own heaters, and that was met with a great deal of grumbling. I haven't noticed anyone trying to enforce that rule.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Ceramic Heaters
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 20 Oct 05 - 05:09 PM

There have been some really significant improvements in small "space heaters," as these are called; but since the advertising department where they make crap can use the same words as the guys who build the good stuff, it can be really difficult to find the differences.

The point can be stretched to say that whatever (electrical) power goes into a device and is "used" eventually comes out as heat. This allows the ad guys associated with the lesser units to say "they're all the same capacity."

Your problem is NOT just to "heat the room." What you really want to do is make the room comfortable for people who are in it (and maybe to keep a few things from freezing up).

Any unit with a fan is attempting to heat the air in the room. This may be a necessary part of making things comfy, but it's actually more efficient to use a unit that produces a significant part of its output as "long-wave radiant" output. This heats the objects in the room - including people - directly, so the objects/people are warmed without the intermediate heating up of all the air. The air will eventually pick up heat from whatever is warmed directly, but in the meantime you'll feel comfortable at a lower air temp.

If you only heat the air, the air has to be warmer than objects in the room to pass any heat to the furniture (and the people). If you heat the furniture and the people, the air can remain at a lower temp and you're still comfortable.

If you intend to heat the area continuously, and always maintain the same temperature, it doesn't make a lot of difference what heating method you use, since once the temperature is established the amount of additional heat you need is determined entirely by how much "leaks out." If you only turn on the heat when you enter, and shut it off when you leave, a "radiant heater" of some sort is likely to be less expensive to operate. Most good "ceramic heaters" are intended to produce lots of infrared output, but cheaper ones just have a "ceramic element that gets hot." Whether or not it has a fan probably won't make a lot of difference.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Ceramic Heaters
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 20 Oct 05 - 05:05 PM

Yup. But you should be able to get one for a lower price. Here in the U.S. if you visit your local Home Depot or other high volume outlet you can find them around $15 - $20.

These are small and heat small spaces well, which is the beauty of them, but if you have enough of them running for long enough, you WILL see your electric bill creep up.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Ceramic Heaters
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 20 Oct 05 - 04:52 PM

Thanks for the info. I do use a small heater on top of the radiator some nights when it gets cold. As luck would have it, my last heater broke just as it was getting warmer but I'll be wanting another one sooon. Is this the type of small one you mean? If so I'll get that one.

Subject: RE: BS: Ceramic Heaters
From: Rapparee
Date: 20 Oct 05 - 04:46 PM

We use ceramic heaters here at work. Started last winter, and I'm cutting the heat down further this year. Cost of gas is going through the roof (so, why do the refineries still do flare-off? he asked) and my budget is taking a beating.

I prefer quartz heaters, myself. They don't heat the air, just you. And don't ask my how they work, but work they do!

Subject: RE: BS: Ceramic Heaters
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 20 Oct 05 - 04:44 PM

Hic!

Great thought, John!

For Jon's inquiry about what feature of electric ceramic heaters makes them good, it's the lack of fumes (from petrochemical fuels) or red hot exposed electircal wires that can start fires. They seem to be the safest type in most situations. Is that what you were asking? Otherwise, a heater is a heater is a heater. Many ceramic heaters (of the bathroom-heating variety) also have a level switch and if the heater goes lopsided or tips over it will shut itself off.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Ceramic Heaters
From: John Hardly
Date: 20 Oct 05 - 04:32 PM

BWL,

You saw my shop...

At one time I was trying to figure out a way to have make a manifold of copper tubing that would circulate water through the outer (wool) insluation of my kiln while it was firing.

Rather that use that radiant water heat immediately, thereby losing MOST of the heat loss to no effect, I wanted to try to have the circulating water come from a buried tank, the mass of which could actually retain the heat for longer term use to heat my shop.

Thing was though, my shop is incredibly efficient -- we use pet groomer's hair dryers to dry glaze on pots whose walls are thrown too thin to absorb the excess moisture. Those hair dryers can actually warm this shop -- it's that well insulated.

And the cost and effort of trying to capture the kiln's wasted heat would probably cost more in time, and the gamble that it'd be worth it, than the yearly expense of heating the shop. Plus, I try not to fire too much in the winter when the local utilities have raised the natural gas prices. Thus, I'm not really firing the kiln when it would be needed to heat the shop.

still......

(hey....speaking of "still".......all that copper tubing....and that heat.......and the cornfield across the street....

...I'll be right back....

Subject: RE: BS: Ceramic Heaters
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 20 Oct 05 - 04:21 PM

Damn! I looked at the title of this thread and saw this tremendous opportunity to say something like "Ceramic heaters are great! I've got a couple that'll heat ceramics to 2300 degrees Fahrenheit!" And then I see that the thread was started by someone that already has that kind of ceramic heater.

Subject: RE: BS: Ceramic Heaters
From: John Hardly
Date: 20 Oct 05 - 04:15 PM

That was my thought exactly, Jon.

When I started looking for ceramic heaters the first thing I noticed was that, unlike any other kind of heater (kerosene, propane, etc), the manufacturers were very canny about not listing the one thing that mattered...

BTUs

But as I noticed that EVERY single heater, big or small, listed the "1500 watts" on their packaging, I started to dig a little deeper. Hence the reason for this thread -- it isn't readily evident that all the heaters BTU output is the same.

I don't think it's any grand conspiracy or anything. No evil intent, except maybe to be canny where it comes to selling the more expensive (bigger) heaters.

It might even be argued that, as the other (bigger, more expensive) heaters actually have other components that, themselves, use some wattage, however little, they might actually have less of the allowable 1500 watts (top by area codes) availible to use toward the heating element, as it is running bigger or occilating fans.

It's not a big deal. Just an observation. With propane or kerosene heaters it is very obvious that you buy by the BTUs. I just thought it sort of misleading that the manufacturers of these (otherwise wonderful little energy saving devices) would purposely choose not to mention that they all had the same (or very nearly the same) BTU output.

Subject: RE: BS: Ceramic Heaters
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 20 Oct 05 - 03:58 PM

What is the advantage of a ceramic heater. Wattage only tells me how much (input) electricity an appliance may use, not how effieciently it may use the electricity.

Subject: RE: BS: Ceramic Heaters
From: Auggie
Date: 20 Oct 05 - 01:02 PM

Thanks John
At the risk of sounding like Andy Rooney, Did you ever wonder why...

they can't put something like that in an automobile, so you don't have to drive 2 or 3 miles before your car's usual heater begins to throw out hot air?

Subject: RE: BS: Ceramic Heaters
From: Jeri
Date: 20 Oct 05 - 12:37 PM

I bought one of the little buggers (1500 w) last year in Canada for about $5 (US). It's great to heat the bathroom right before a shower, but I think I should get others. The cost of heating oil is rumored to possibly go up to three times last year, and it was up last year.

Good info, John. This little box I have is primarily made up of fan. Perhaps the bigger units just have a bigger fan.

Subject: RE: BS: Ceramic Heaters
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 20 Oct 05 - 12:35 PM

Do you think the load would be hard on an electric timer?

Not if you get the right kind, SRS. I have a number of heaters here*, all on electric timers. Plus, all they are is a clock and a relay, so they're quite hard to overload.

*Some idiot built this place without gas, so I only have electric heating. Oddly enough I tend not to use it, rather put on more clothes. At least one of them is rated for 2000 W, which is alot more thab you'll need for a bathroom, at least in Texas.

Subject: RE: BS: Ceramic Heaters
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 20 Oct 05 - 12:26 PM

Thanks for the information, John!

Same here, Sorcha--ours are used in the bathrooms to take the chill off without having the crank up the heater to warm the whole house. Once you're showered and dressed in your sweater you don't need the rooms to be so warm.

My bathroom has one of those exposed element ceiling units that I'm always afraid could cause a fire someday if it was left on, so I went ahead and removed the regular switch and put a timer on it. The benefits are that it isn't turned on by accident when groping for the ceiling light, and it goes off by itself if forgotten. I may go ahead and see about putting those little ceramic heaters on timers. We generally don't forget to turn them off, but it might be nice to find the bathroom already warm. Do you think the load would be hard on an electric timer?

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Ceramic Heaters
From: Sorcha
Date: 20 Oct 05 - 12:04 PM

We have 3 of the little box ones.....the one in the bathroom gets used the most, the other 2 are for the spare bedrooms. Love the things!

Subject: RE: BS: Ceramic Heaters
From: wysiwyg
Date: 20 Oct 05 - 11:29 AM

Good tip, JH.

~S~

Subject: BS: Ceramic Heaters
From: John Hardly
Date: 20 Oct 05 - 11:28 AM

Just a helpful heads-up...

I live in an area of the country where it is going to be advantageous (for the first time that I can ever remember) to supplement natural gas heat with electric space heaters. Usually gas is so much less expensive that anything electric costs more, but this year I will be seeing a 70% price increase from summer gas prices and a 125% increase from last year (lets not talk about my kilns!).

For that reason, and prompted by information from Popular Science (as told me by my brother), about the new economical ceramic heaters, I began searching around town for what was available in ceramic heaters.

So, to cut to the chase, and not that you all aren't quick enough to pick up on this all on your own...

...all the ceramic heaters I found, whether big (25"X30" wall units), or made to stand free and look like old radiators, or complete with fancy occilating fans or combined air filters, or tiny-no-bigger-than-a-lunchbox...

...all produce the same maximum BTUs.

Yup. Whether you are spending nearly $100 for a bigger, more imposing looking heating unit, or a little two-speeder the size of a lunchbox that costs less than $20 -- they all supply the same amount of heat.

The electrical code in most areas wouldn't allow for any more wattage to be plugged into a standard 110 plug. 1500 watts/5112 BTUs is the max and they are all thus equipped.