BS: Gary Glitter Punishment Poll

Subject: RE: BS: Gary Glitter Punishment Poll
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Nov 05 - 08:26 AM

I agree janine. But the trouble with GG is that he chose not to get help. He chose to travel to the child sex hot spots of the world. He doesn't deserve sympathy. I would rather save it for those who have been abused and had no choices.

Subject: RE: BS: Gary Glitter Punishment Poll
From: GUEST,Janine
Date: 30 Nov 05 - 08:18 AM

No Guest, I'm afraid I'm hypocritical enough to say I wouldn't like one to live next door and eye up the children. I wish I were brave and understanding enough to invite him (or her) to tea; but I'm not. Unfortunately some people are born that way or made that way and have desires which are unacceptable but that doesn't mean to say they are necessarily going to act on them, that is not all will become rapists. Help is needed not a firing squad, please. What help is beyond me to say.

Janine

Glad you're not a Sun reader!

Subject: RE: BS: Gary Glitter Punishment Poll
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Nov 05 - 07:46 AM

Guest, Why are paedophiles always male, always rapists and usually killers as well; according to The Sun anyway.

Janine not being a sun reader I can not comment. They are not opinions I hold.

So how about answering my question.?

Subject: RE: BS: Gary Glitter Punishment Poll
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 30 Nov 05 - 06:28 AM

The great Garys' of course!

Subject: RE: BS: Gary Glitter Punishment Poll
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 30 Nov 05 - 06:27 AM

Ted/Janine,

Whose CDs are we talking about?

Subject: RE: BS: Gary Glitter Punishment Poll
From: GUEST,Janine
Date: 30 Nov 05 - 06:24 AM

flamenco ted. They certainly were a few years ago; have a look at the Phil Ochs thread above

Janine

Subject: RE: BS: Gary Glitter Punishment Poll
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 30 Nov 05 - 06:07 AM

Are his CD's still available? I am thinking of sending them to people as Christmas presents. Well, it's a bit different from the usual tat I send!

Subject: RE: BS: Gary Glitter Punishment Poll
From: GUEST,Janine
Date: 30 Nov 05 - 06:01 AM

I think everyone deserves compassion, Chris B, even those we may not like or who disgust us, hard though it may be. And everyone counts. I'm not making special excuses for Garry Glitter or what he is alledged to have done.
I don't know what Phil Ochs would have thought in this particular case but listen to his song about the reformed killer Paul Crump which gives some idea about that very hard thing compassion.

Guest, Why are paedophiles always male, always rapists and usually killers as well; according to The Sun anyway.

Janine

Subject: RE: BS: Gary Glitter Punishment Poll
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 30 Nov 05 - 05:14 AM

Janine,

I prefer to reserve my compassion for the children that Gadd is accused of abusing. Or don't they count because they're Vietnamese? What would Phil Ochs have thought of that?

Subject: RE: BS: Gary Glitter Punishment Poll
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Nov 05 - 05:02 AM

Would the apologists on this thread be quite so understanding if a released paedophile was housed next door to them? Would you worry that he was staring at your children through the nets as they played in the garden? Would you be inviting him in for tea?

Subject: RE: BS: Gary Glitter Punishment Poll
From: GUEST,Janine
Date: 30 Nov 05 - 04:59 AM

weelittledrummer,

It was Basil Fawtly I think.

I'm glad Mudcatters show more compassion than Sunreaders.

I've just been looking at the Phil Ochs thread. 'There But for Fortune' he wrote.

Janine

Subject: RE: BS: Gary Glitter Punishment Poll
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 30 Nov 05 - 04:06 AM

El Greko,

I don't think the 'system' could have forced Gadd to seek help. The provisions of the Mental Health Act are primarily concerned (in the first instance at least) with the physical safety of people suffering from mental illnesses or personality disorders. People detained under the act are normally detained because they pose an acute risk to themselves or others at the time that they are taken into detention. The act provides for them to be compelled to submit to certain forms of treatment (the administration of drugs, for example) but cannot compel people to look at their own behaviour and to take responsibility for it. Mental health workers can help patients do so but only if they are willing to try to do so in the first place. So no, I don't think you can blame the system.

Subject: RE: BS: Gary Glitter Punishment Poll
From: Paul Burke
Date: 30 Nov 05 - 03:52 AM

I thought Paedophilia was Stae capital of Pennsylvania until I discovered Sm....

Subject: RE: BS: Gary Glitter Punishment Poll
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 29 Nov 05 - 04:57 PM

to paraphrase Tony Hancock - paedophile...that's feet, isn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Gary Glitter Punishment Poll
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 29 Nov 05 - 03:58 PM

No conscious effort on my part to miss your point, Chris B, it happened naturally - call me a pedant. I agree that GG could (and should) have sought help; but the fact that he did not do so, makes him simply a potential re-offender (at least until proven guilty of the more recent offence). And so, I would not advocate his punishment; not until proven guilty. I would shun him, of course, but that is my personal decision, no more than that.

I totally agree with you that as he chose to visit that country he must be held to account under its laws. And like you, I would not automatically assume (not without solid proof, anyway) that a far eastern country would have a less fair justice system - such assumptions are dangerous and smack of chauvinism.

If GG is at large and a potential re-offender is mostly his own fault; but the UK system of justice could have forced him to seek appropriate help - and it didn't. I would pin some of the blame on the system too, then; not to take such blame away from GG, but in the interests of protecting future victims of other paedophiles at large. And they are many, more than most of us imagine. While I disagree with David Hannam's view that there is an "epidemic" (come on DH, do please consider the different attitudes to reporting such crimes across the years), I have it from an ex-social worker friend that "wherever you are in the UK, there is a paedophile within half a mile of you". Scary, but he assures me it is true.

Subject: RE: BS: Gary Glitter Punishment Poll
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 29 Nov 05 - 03:33 PM

Tim,

I'm gratified by your response. However, I still think you've missed the point I made about the issue of powerlessness on the part of the subjects of pornographic images.

El Greko,

You have also missed the point. In your case you appear to have made a conscious effort to do so. It's not just a question of urges or impulses. It's a question of choices. Paul Gadd could have reacted to his last conviction in the UK by seeking help. He appears instead to have chosen to go abroad and resume the same patterns of behaviour.

Weelittledrummer makes a very good point about how hard it is for someone to give up a destructive pattern of behaviour. This is especially the case when the behaviour is linked to mental illness, personality disorder (not the same thing) or learning difficulties. But that doesn't mean that no help is available and there are many people in the NHS who work extremely hard to help and treat people who have committed the most appalling acts.

Many of those health workers are themselves parents and it is not easy for them to divorce their own personal repugnance for an act from their professional commitment to care for their patient. But they do it. Gadd could have sought the help of such people. As a known offender, he would probably have been 'fast-tracked' to receive it if he wanted it. But he chose not to.

As it happens, I find the poll that was mentioned at the beginning of this thread to be a tasteless stunt on someone's part and no, I haven't voted in it. But there appears to be an assumption on the part of some people who have contributed that Gadd cannot expect a fair trial or justice in a far eastern country. All I can say to that is that if you do not wish to be held to account under another country's laws, perhaps you should not visit that country.

Subject: RE: BS: Gary Glitter Punishment Poll
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 29 Nov 05 - 02:45 PM

Well said Greg

Subject: RE: BS: Gary Glitter Punishment Poll
From: greg stephens
Date: 29 Nov 05 - 02:43 PM

The equating of looking at pictures with rape is a very common argument. I remember after the last war there was a very popular book called "Scourge of the Swastika", very widely read, which detailes the activities of the nazis, torturing etc. Reading that book, I can assure everyone, is very different from actually torturing someone. Not everyone who read that book progressed to actually torturing people; and not everyone who has read Agatha Christie, or looked at the pictures in true-life crime books, progresses to murder.
If Gary Glitter has passed beyond an indecent obsession with an unsavoury subject to actually practising the activity: well, let him be tried and dealt with. But not with the kind of witch-hunting that some people are trying to organise. Remember the mob that tried to beat up the pediatrician.

Subject: RE: BS: Gary Glitter Punishment Poll
From: GUEST,Tim
Date: 29 Nov 05 - 02:40 PM

Hear, hear, mack/misophist

Chris, in answer to your question, no I don't view child pornography.

I do find your view that looking at a picture is as heinous as raping someone, slightly odd.

Subject: RE: BS: Gary Glitter Punishment Poll
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 29 Nov 05 - 02:37 PM

Chris B, your question/request for an explanation was from your 12:06PM post: "... I wait to be advised by some of our outspoken libertarians in this thread of the moral distinction between posession of such images and the hands-on sexual abuse of a child. I look forward to having that explained to me. "

My point, as I already stated above, was: "The potential for a crime is not the crime itself. It is still serious, and needs to be addressed - but not with the same severity as the crime itself".

Which part of the above is unclear? And you still haven't answered my query as to what prompted your request for an explanation - though your tetchy response leads to any one of three possibilities:

a) you were trying to score a point against/put down the "outspoken libertarians" (whoever they may be, your words), or
b) you are playing devil's advocate (fair enough), or
c) you are playing silly buggers

And before you ask me in the same bad-mannered and offensive way that you asked Tim (tetchy again): No - I don't view child pornography, I never have, I have no interest in it, neither would I make friends with anyone who did.

Subject: RE: BS: Gary Glitter Punishment Poll
From: mack/misophist
Date: 29 Nov 05 - 02:14 PM

Until every court in the world is able to reliably guarantee the accuracy of it's findings, the death penalty is a bad idea. No matter how attractive it may seem.

Subject: RE: BS: Gary Glitter Punishment Poll
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 29 Nov 05 - 01:56 PM

except the man who took the photograph of a car wasn't violating the car, in the way that someone who takes a pornographic image of a child is. and thus the person who trades in this image is complicit in violating a child.

Make no mistake, they knew he was walking time bomb when they released him. My Dad who was a nurse in a mental hospital at the time Thatcher was doing her 'couldn't give a shit in the community ' initiative and closing all the mental hospitals down told me , 'you'd be surprised how many time boms are walking past you every day on the street'.

I feel sorry for the GG, poor sod - going through life with these sort of thoughts obssessing his mind.

as for the folks who say he should have given up, worn a hair shirt, etc. Haven't they ever tried to give up some form of addictive behaviour...smoking, drinking, over eating, obsessive nagging, etc. We are all very frail vessels and we should show a little compassion towards one another.

if we rich countries can't behave in a morally upright way when dealing with society's screw ups. then we give a licence to poor countries to behave badly.

Presumably that's how China sees it when they organise a firing squad for ten year old shoplifters. Oh we just have a different cut off point - we can't afford to be as squeamish as you rich folk in the west.

Subject: RE: BS: Gary Glitter Punishment Poll
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 29 Nov 05 - 01:47 PM

El Greko,

I didn't ask a question. I will now. What's your point?

Subject: RE: BS: Gary Glitter Punishment Poll
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 29 Nov 05 - 01:41 PM

'Should every adult that has ever looked at any pornographical material be charged with rape?'

If it can be demonstrated that the subjects of the images were forced into acts against their will through their own powerlessness (be it the result of being children, through poverty or the threat of violence), then yes.

If pornographic images feature children then the assumption must always be that they have been compelled to submit to abuse for the purpose of the production of such images. Therefore the consumer of the image is in every sense as culpable as the producer of the image.

Do you view child pornography, Tim?

Subject: RE: BS: Gary Glitter Punishment Poll
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 29 Nov 05 - 01:35 PM

Chris B, have you ever coveted someone else's wife but - properly - never acted on that desire? Have you loved a particular car model and kept photos of it but never stole one? Have you passionately dislike someone but never hit him/her or killed him/her?

That's the difference. The potential for a crime is not the crime itself. It is still serious, and needs to be addressed - but not with the same severity as the crime itself.

Nothing to do with being a "libertarian", whatever that is nowadays (I have at one time or another voted for right- and left-wing parties in my home country, and belong to no party, choosing to cast my vote according to the current sircumstances and options available, rather than blindly follow a doctrine). So don't pigeonhole me.

Now, hand on heart - was your question really prompted by lack of understanding, or just the wish to somehow score a point? It's OK to admit the latter, we are all human and we can all get hot under the collar. Let's just use common sense (and please let's not start another discussion on what that is), and move on.

Subject: RE: BS: Gary Glitter Punishment Poll
From: GUEST,Tim
Date: 29 Nov 05 - 01:17 PM

I wait to be advised by some of our outspoken libertarians in this thread of the moral distinction between posession of such images and the hands-on sexual abuse of a child.

Should every adult that has ever looked at any pornographical material be charged with rape?

Because that's the logical conclusion of your arguement...

Subject: RE: BS: Gary Glitter Punishment Poll
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 29 Nov 05 - 12:06 PM

He's a paedophile. He went to a country where there are certain penalties for certain sex offences. He now stands accused of committing such offences. If he wasn't prepared to face the penalties then one assumes he would have taken care not to commit the offences. Perhaps he's guilty and perhaps he's not. If he is then no-one has any reason to feel any sympathy for him over the penalty he may have to face, whatever that may be. If you can't do the time, don't do the crime.

Yes, he was convicted of posession obscene images in children in the UK. I wait to be advised by some of our outspoken libertarians in this thread of the moral distinction between posession of such images and the hands-on sexual abuse of a child. I look forward to having that explained to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Gary Glitter Punishment Poll
From: alanabit
Date: 29 Nov 05 - 11:53 AM

This should give you some idea of what judcial caning is all about. I don't feel particularly smug about our justice systems in the Western world, but I am glad that we have dispensed with this particular charming institution.

Subject: RE: BS: Gary Glitter Punishment Poll
From: *daylia*
Date: 29 Nov 05 - 11:05 AM

Oops, sorry, we'll have to pass on the caning. He's 61, and people over 50 cannot be caned according to the link above. How very disappointing!

Subject: RE: BS: Gary Glitter Punishment Poll
From: *daylia*
Date: 29 Nov 05 - 11:01 AM

Caning oughta do him a lot of good.

And after that how about tarring, feathering, drawing, quartering, decapitating, then impaling his head on a big stake beside the Tower of London?

Just for ole time's sake.

;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Gary Glitter Punishment Poll
From: el_punkoid_nouveau
Date: 29 Nov 05 - 08:56 AM

Correction to the above - in England, he was found guilty of possessing indecent photographs. There was no suggestion of any indecent act with a child - had he been charged with that and found guilty, he would have got a damn sight more than four months.

epn

Subject: RE: BS: Gary Glitter Punishment Poll
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Nov 05 - 07:41 AM

So what makes you yes voters different from a Muslim Fundamentalist who decides to fly into the twin towers?

Villan I assumed this was directed at this thread. Not at the poll on another website.

Subject: RE: BS: Gary Glitter Punishment Poll
From: Paul Burke
Date: 29 Nov 05 - 06:35 AM

I thought the Christians had a thingy called Gospels, where this Jesus chap said something about throwing the first stone.

But then, I'm not religious, so I could be wrong.

Have you got to show off, Mother?

Subject: RE: BS: Gary Glitter Punishment Poll
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 29 Nov 05 - 06:34 AM

Lenny Bruce said about the Eichman trial, they were shaving his leg before the jury was sworn in.......

Subject: RE: BS: Gary Glitter Punishment Poll
From: Rasener
Date: 29 Nov 05 - 04:44 AM

Well I just had a look and theer was 120 voters with 97% saying yes.

Subject: RE: BS: Gary Glitter Punishment Poll
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Nov 05 - 07:17 PM

I can only see one yes voter in this poll. Stop getting hysterical.

Subject: RE: BS: Gary Glitter Punishment Poll
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Nov 05 - 06:34 PM

So what makes you yes voters different from a Muslim Fundamentalist who decides to fly into the twin towers? You're all obsessed with death and your own righteousness. And I'll bet some of you claim to be Christians! Go read your Messiah.

Subject: RE: BS: Gary Glitter Punishment Poll
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Nov 05 - 06:23 PM

I say the kangaroo did it ....... that's why he was court.........

Subject: RE: BS: Gary Glitter Punishment Poll
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 Nov 05 - 04:13 PM

given up on that thread, there are deep sea moluscs with more insight into the human condition.

Subject: RE: BS: Gary Glitter Punishment Poll
From: Cluin
Date: 28 Nov 05 - 02:29 PM

Nothing like getting all puffed up with righteous anger and working some demons out of your own system.

The kind of thinking that brought us blacklisting, witch burning and the Inquisition. Must fight the Boogeyman. He's everywhere, you know.

VIGILANCE!

Subject: RE: BS: Gary Glitter Punishment Poll
From: alanabit
Date: 28 Nov 05 - 02:10 PM

There is something peculiarly sick about those, who would drag a defenceless human out of a cell and put them to death. I think the action has moral parity with, perhaps, child molesting.

Subject: RE: BS: Gary Glitter Punishment Poll
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 28 Nov 05 - 02:04 PM

Correct on the English verdict, however there has yet to be a trial regarding these Far Eastern allegations.
G.

Subject: RE: BS: Gary Glitter Punishment Poll
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Nov 05 - 01:26 PM

Agrred. He could have thrown himself into rehabilitation in UK and devoted his life to volunteering to help worthy causes. Instead he went to the child sex hot spots of the world. Go figure giok.

Subject: RE: BS: Gary Glitter Punishment Poll
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 28 Nov 05 - 01:06 PM

He was proven guilty in England. That's why he went to the Far East.

Subject: RE: BS: Gary Glitter Punishment Poll
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 28 Nov 05 - 12:06 PM

That is disgusting, whatever happened to innocent until proven guilty?
G.

Subject: RE: BS: Gary Glitter Punishment Poll
From: zelger
Date: 28 Nov 05 - 11:57 AM

i voted yes

Subject: BS: Gary Glitter Punishment Poll
From: zelger
Date: 28 Nov 05 - 11:49 AM

further to the heated debate on Glitter by Peter K, David Hannam, dianavan and others, here is a poll just started for your vote.

This way we can end the issue with a poll!

Get voting everyone...just follow the blue link.

http://www.fastcompany.com/poll/?x=2047