Accordion vs Melodian

Subject: Accordion vs Melodian
From: Barry Finn
Date: 22 May 07 - 07:35 PM

I just got my hands on a 3 row button accordion or melodian, not sure which is which. The push pull is like an anglo concertina, there's a different note for each action. It's in the keys of ADG & scales seem to run vertical. Is this an accordion or melodian? Not that it makes much difference, casue I'm gonna give it a hell of a go anyway but it would help now that I'm looking for a "how to play" book. Leave out the jokes thanks

Thanks
Barry

Subject: RE: Accordion vs Melodian
From: Rowan
Date: 22 May 07 - 07:50 PM

Barry, I gather there are regional differences about the name. In Oz, what you've got is called a button accordion. When I was in UK 30 years ago they were called button accordions there too. From various comments on Mudcat, I gather people in UK now call them melodeons but, in Oz, the term melodeon is usually reserved for the rectangular, diatonic, instrument with a single row of buttons for the right hand, a pair of spoon valves for the left hand, and from 1-4 'cotton reel' pull rods to operate different voices on the right hand end..

If what you've got was made by Hohner, it will probably be either a Corona II (with two reeds per note) or a Corona III (with three reeds per note).

Have fun.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: Accordion vs Melodian
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 22 May 07 - 08:46 PM

G'day Barry,

(It must be Australian viewing time ... well - peeking into the muddy deeps from works connection over morning tea time!)

Rowan's is spot on re Australian terms ... and, I gather right about recent UK tendency to miscall them "Melodions". Hohner's catalogs (at least my '60s to 90s examples) call them "Diatonic Button Accordions" - to distinguish them from strange "British Chromatic Accordions" in, say, BC(C#) and "Continental Chromatic Accordions" )aka "Chromaticas" that have 3 to 5 rows of cunningly related buttons allowing you (on the 5-row versions) to play a single pattern for a tune ... and shift it into any other key by just changing the same "pattern" to a new starting button!

I understand that the Scots (being the Scots) ... for competition purposes make strict distinction between systems with "same chord each way", which are classed as accordions and "Different chord each way", which compete in the "Melodion" class - so they may take the blame for the demise of more accurate taxonomy.

Regards,

Bob

Subject: RE: Accordion vs Melodian
From: treewind
Date: 23 May 07 - 04:39 AM

Most of us Brits would call it a melodeon. The subtle dividing line (as I was taught) is where the instrument is designed to be fully chromatic so two rows in B anC or C/C# would be an accordion.

I call my Saltarelle a melodeon becase the two main rows are D and G. Despite that, with all the accidentals (it's a 2½ row) and a bit of retuning it's actually fully chromatic over three octaves.

Others draw the line elsewhere, and in some times and places (e.g. Ireland) even a 1 row box was an accordion.

I have a friend who plays a box whose right hand end is a Hohner Club melodeon, left hand is accordion stradella bass. I don't know whether to call that an accordion, a melodeon, or a horrifying example of why instruments shouldn't be left unattended in the same room overnight after a session.
Note that's not the Shand system that John Kirkpatrick plays, which is B/C/C# on the right and standard accordion bass on the left.

Anahata

Subject: RE: Accordion vs Melodian
From: treewind
Date: 23 May 07 - 04:45 AM

Just spotted the mention of the Scots competition rule about "same chord each way" and "different chord each way" - for a playing competition that makes a lot of sense, because the systems offer hugely different opportunities for keys and bass lines.

Having said that - you might be surprised at the amount of melodic bass line than can be achieved with a standard 8-button bass on a 2 row melodeon, if you really try.

Anahata

Subject: RE: Accordion vs Melodian
From: IanC
Date: 23 May 07 - 04:58 AM

Actually, they're all Accordions. It's a generic name.

There are twop main types of accordion - button and piano.

Of the button variety, some ... instruments designed to be played diatonically ... are commonly called Melodeons in England.

Hope this clears it up.

:-)
Ian

Subject: RE: Accordion vs Melodian
From: GUEST,martin ellison
Date: 23 May 07 - 04:59 AM

Hi Barry
I used to get really irked, in my youthful blinkered ignorance, when someone called my melodeon an accordion. For some reason, at least to me, melodeons were cool and macho and accordions were for effeminate nonces who played spineless, sloppy music. I hadn't considered the "button accordion". Or the many brilliant players of piano accordions. What a silly boy.
In fact at the time (although I didn't know it) I was playing a Hohner Vienna accordion - makes me blush to think how wrong I was.

[Although as recently as last week someone talked to me about my "accordion" and I felt that old pang of horror, the difference these days is that I don't try to "correct" them, after all, they may be correct - sheesh!]

It's all in the locality/region/country/continent/language/vernacular and any other variables you want to add.
My rule of thumb for naming these instruments will be different to anybody else's.
For what it's worth the name of 3 row melodeon fits the description of your instrument.
Oh damn, so does diatonic accordion. And button accordion.

Have fun with your . . . erm . . . instrument.
Martin

Subject: RE: Accordion vs Melodian
From: GUEST,martin ellison
Date: 23 May 07 - 05:02 AM

And, of course, various spellings!

Hi Anahata you may know - have you seen any manufacturers call their instruments "melodeons". I'm aware that shops will call them this because we're used to it but makers?

Subject: RE: Accordion vs Melodian
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 23 May 07 - 05:03 AM

Reading this made me feel like when I was a little kid, going to sleep on the sofa while listening to the grownups talk. It made no sense to me, but it was oh, so comfortable to hear such talk!

Subject: RE: Accordion vs Melodian
From: GUEST,martin ellison
Date: 23 May 07 - 05:12 AM

Ah! Saltarelle call their 1 row a "melodeon" and Strebs are melodeons too. Or are they? Jury still out.

George - it's just the melodeonistas equivalent of spelling out words they don't want young 'uns to hear. You wouldn't understand dear. Now go and clean your teeth and get to bed.

Subject: RE: Accordion vs Melodian
From: Leadfingers
Date: 23 May 07 - 05:39 AM

This is a discussion for banjo players to keep WELL away from !

Subject: RE: Accordion vs Melodian
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 23 May 07 - 06:13 AM

Strebs are melodeons too

Hmmmm, I think they're just boys' electronic toys.
And they put a stop to the fun of having 93 boxes in all known keys and many not laid out on stage in front of a player.
Though in an ideal world a curb on the excess of melodeons is to be encouraged so maybe Strebs are a Good Thing . . .

Subject: RE: Accordion vs Melodian
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 23 May 07 - 06:34 AM

G'day again,

martin ellison: My old Hohner catalogs call the "German Style" (square, wooden, turned wooden 'stops', simple 2-button bass) "Melodeons" ... the flashy modern 2- and 3-rowers in tasteful 'mother-of-toilet-seat' and having extra (sub-dominant and minor) chord buttons "Diatonic Button Accordions" and I can live with that as reasonably good distinction. Barry Finn's ADG (Corona?) is certainly a (button) accordion ... to me, if not the Scottish competition moderators!

Anahata: Well, I might not "be surprised at the amount of melodic bass line than can be achieved with a standard 8-button bass on a 2 row melodeon, if you really try... following up collected music from "Germanic" migrants to Australia in the Gold Rush to Federation periods has led me down interesting paths. Then, a few visits, workshops and Master Classes by Brian Peters have shown me lots of ways to trick a lot more harmony out of a simple button accordion. (So much that I now worry about just where to "draw the line" between legitimate folk style and ... errr... whatever I'm doing...?

Regards,

Bob

Subject: RE: Accordion vs Melodian
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 May 07 - 06:54 AM

in Ireland melodeons are one row diatonic instruments,comhaltas have seperate competetions for them,everything else is a button accordion..
In England players often call their two row button accordions melodeons.

Subject: RE: Accordion vs Melodian
From: IanC
Date: 23 May 07 - 07:00 AM

Yeah, but in Ireland the 2-row instruments used for Comhaltas competitions tend to be B/C or C/C# and played chromatically.

:-)

Subject: RE: Accordion vs Melodian
From: treewind
Date: 23 May 07 - 07:05 AM

Martin: yes, I get exactly the same feeling and had exactly the same prejudices about piano accordions, and in many case we had/have good reason too.

Bob: "Master Classes by Brian Peters have shown me lots of ways to trick a lot more harmony out of a simple button accordion. (So much that I now worry about just where to "draw the line" between legitimate folk style and ... errr... whatever I'm doing...?"

Hmm. Why worry? If exploring the basses to the limits is good enough for John Kirkpatrick, it's good enough for me!

Anahata

Subject: RE: Accordion vs Melodian
From: treewind
Date: 23 May 07 - 07:08 AM

Oh, and George: this is nothing compared with the endless minutiae of guitar technology that get discussed in other parts around here. Don't grudge us box players our occasional little indulgence in talking shop!

Anahata

Subject: RE: Accordion vs Melodian
From: GUEST,Mike Gott
Date: 23 May 07 - 07:28 AM

You could have a look at the melodeon.net website that was set up a few years back by Jon Spiers. Most of it hasn't been updated for a while but there are still many useful links and guidance plus an active forum where you can ask questions to your heart's content. Membership is free. Good luck with the big squeezebox (there - that gets out of calling it a melodion, melodeon, accordion or accordeon, doesn't it..)

Mike

Subject: RE: Accordion vs Melodian
From: GUEST,Brian Peters
Date: 23 May 07 - 07:43 AM

Hi there Barry, great to see you at NEFFA last month. What you have sounds like the Hohner Corona III that I used to play for several years before getting my Salterelle about 15 years ago. These three-row instruments are the usual choice of Tex-Mex players like Flaco Jimenez et al, and are sometimes been used in Zydeco as well. In either of those cases the players find their scales and riffs by zig-zagging across all three rows instead of going along a single row in the way the instrument was originally designed to be played. This cross-row style of playing means that you don't have work the bellows in and out nearly as much as you do in the along-the-row style. For the English music that I generally play - which does involve a lot of bellows reversals - I eventually found the three-row a bit cumbersome and slow to respond. It's great for rock'n'roll, though!

However, since a three-row is what you have, there is no reason at all why you shouldn't be able to pick out the kind of tunes you want to learn. Or were you thinking about song accompaniment? The only book I know of catering for beginners on English-style 'melodeon' is Roger Watson's "Handbook for Melodeon", which still seems to be available from various music shops and Amazon. This is for G/D instruments, but if you forget about the 'A' row for the time being it will at least get you started. The other thing to do (what I did in the first place) is to try and pick out a few tunes that you already have in your head, using one row only, purely by a process of trial and error.

You can get to grips with row-crossing when you've got the basics of along-the-row playing. John Kirkpatrick's tutorial DVDs start with the first lesson demonstrated exclusively on a one-row instrument before branching out on to a two-row.

I suppose since no-one else seems to have brought out a diatonic accordion / melodeon tutor that goes beyond the Watson entry-level guide, I should think about it myself sometime. Hmmmm......

Subject: RE: Accordion vs Melodian
From: Schantieman
Date: 23 May 07 - 07:43 AM

Melodeon I reckon.

or diatonic button accordion.

or....


Mine is a bog-standard Hohner 2-row in G & D; the manufacturers, Hobgoblin (from whom I bought it c. 1975 when they had just one shop, in Kingston-upon-Thames, I think) and I all call it a meloodeon

S

Subject: RE: Accordion vs Melodian
From: GUEST,martin ellison
Date: 23 May 07 - 07:48 AM

Schantieman - so you call it a meloodeon do you? I'll add that one to my list.

Subject: RE: Accordion vs Melodian
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 23 May 07 - 07:51 AM

Tin van Eyken calls his Saltarelle an ice cream maker.

Subject: RE: Accordion vs Melodian
From: GUEST,Brian Peters
Date: 23 May 07 - 07:53 AM

Wouldn't that make the bellows soggy?

Subject: RE: Accordion vs Melodian
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 23 May 07 - 08:03 AM

Soggy? Yeah, that reminds me of a well-known melodeon player now in a very large band who took his first Pokerwork out busking in the days when he needed the cash and wondered why it fell apart in the rain.

Subject: RE: Accordion vs Melodian
From: GUEST
Date: 23 May 07 - 08:08 AM

Subject: RE: Accordion vs Melodian
From: GUEST,Brian Peters
Date: 23 May 07 - 08:28 AM

" ......a well-known melodeon player now in a very large band who took his first Pokerwork out busking in the days when he needed the cash and wondered why it fell apart in the rain."

Playing it inside a bin-liner is the answer to that, of course. And it looks so cool as well.

Going back to Bob's point: ".....just where to "draw the line" between legitimate folk style and ... errr... whatever I'm doing", the answer is that any good musician who has the time to spend exploring their instrument's potential is going feel a compulsion to take things as far as they can. With an instrument like the melodeon, which in many ways is quite limited, the challenge is all the greater. But because the potential is there doesn't mean that it has to be fully exploited all the time. Mark Bazely is a great melodeon player despite staying more or less within the constraints of his grandfather Bob Cann's style. Players like Andy Cutting or Julian Sutton, on the other hand, have been more innovatory in the way they've explored basically the same instrument. Where you or I choose to 'draw the line will' depend on our personal taste, and possibly on our view of the relative importance of continuity versus evolution as the predominant characteristic of traditional music. Some of the very jazzy stuff (particularly in left-hand accompaniments) heard from young melodeon players in England these days is technically impressive, but takes the instrument further away from the sound of our traditional role models (like Bob Cann or Oscar Woods) than I would wish to go. But that's just me. The tradition belongs to the people who play, not the pundits.

Subject: RE: Accordion vs Melodian
From: GUEST,martin ellison
Date: 23 May 07 - 08:56 AM

"Tin van Eyken calls his Saltarelle an ice cream maker"
I've sometimes felt like sprinkling his crushed nuts on it.

I think Tim's Saltarelle looks more like the mighty Wurlitzer in Blackpool.

BTW countess, did you notice I resisted pointing out the "Tin van" error - oh damn!

Subject: RE: Accordion vs Melodian
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 23 May 07 - 09:07 AM

Martin dahling, I've been ever so nice to you SO FAR, but me and Mr Van Eyken may have to consider ganging up on you.
At least you didn't wonder if he was going to join Tiny Tin Lady . . .
Thread-hopping blatantly, I mentioned Julian Sutton earlier on the Kathryn Tickell thread.
The trio was on Woman's Hour this morning and their lovely music will be on the replayer for a week.

Subject: RE: Accordion vs Melodian
From: treewind
Date: 23 May 07 - 09:12 AM

"The tradition belongs to the people who play, not the pundits."

Love it. Well said Brian.

A.

Subject: RE: Accordion vs Melodian
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 23 May 07 - 09:17 AM

And now I can't help wondering if Anahata, Brian and Martin are all having a go at me because I really can't get the hang of diatonic thingies.
Paranoia rules!

Subject: RE: Accordion vs Melodian
From: GUEST,Brian Peters
Date: 23 May 07 - 09:22 AM

Having a go at you, Countess? Perish the thought. Pundits are great, really, especially when they say nice things about me.

You need a special brain for diatonic thingies.

Subject: RE: Accordion vs Melodian
From: Bernard
Date: 23 May 07 - 09:26 AM

I'm with Mike Gott - Squeezebox! End of argument!!

As I play both/all (including Anglo and English concertina) I have no axe to grind - though people often threaten me with one!!

;o)

Subject: RE: Accordion vs Melodian
From: Bernard
Date: 23 May 07 - 09:27 AM

Hello, Brian, how's tricks?

Subject: RE: Accordion vs Melodian
From: Bernard
Date: 23 May 07 - 09:28 AM

Oh, and hello Anahata! You and Mary okay?

Subject: RE: Accordion vs Melodian
From: GUEST,martin ellison
Date: 23 May 07 - 09:31 AM

Brian - they may write nice things about you, they may say something different.

Well that's stopped anybody (cough, countess) writing anything nice about me.

Also I hope you didn't think I considered crushing TvE's nuts because I didn't like him. Quite the contrary in fact.

Subject: RE: Accordion vs Melodian
From: GUEST,Brian Peters
Date: 23 May 07 - 09:33 AM

"Hello, Brian, how's tricks?"

Pretty good, thanks, Bernard. I've just given a concertina lesson and am just about to fit a new panel on the bath. The life of the professional folk musician is glamorous indeed.

Will I be seeing you at Lymm on June 30th?

Subject: RE: Accordion vs Melodian
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 23 May 07 - 09:35 AM

Martin, I have written 'nice things' about you.
(EC Band IIRC . . . )
You just can't have read them.
Your interest in TvE's nuts is none of my business.

Subject: RE: Accordion vs Melodian
From: GUEST,martin ellison
Date: 23 May 07 - 10:05 AM

countess:
I take it all back.

Now looking forward to a melodeon overdose in Bampton.

Subject: RE: Accordion vs Melodian
From: GUEST
Date: 23 May 07 - 10:49 AM

Brian Reters said: "I suppose since no-one else seems to have brought out a diatonic accordion / melodeon tutor that goes beyond the Watson entry-level guide, I should think about it myself sometime. Hmmmm......"

Didn't Dave Mallinson write several books for it? Are they still available?

I used to play it (I had a couple, in different keys for song accompaniment) but it got to be a lot to carry around. Anglos are smaller :-)

Subject: RE: Accordion vs Melodian
From: Anglo
Date: 23 May 07 - 11:36 AM

Oops, I see I was cookieless. That was me at 10:49 above. Also apologies to Brian Peters whose name I failed to spell.
Cheers

Subject: RE: Accordion vs Melodian
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 May 07 - 11:44 AM

Dave mallinson brought out several tutors for two row melodeon[diatonic accordion] [g d].
the gd two row is in my opinion the most versatile for playing in g d ,95 percent of irish tunes are in these or related modes.
it is the most versatile because,when you start to crossrow you have more notes on the push and pull that are the same,also it is easier to play the correct basses,lots of bc players struggle in d major.
when you are playing in a noisy pub a gd going with full basses,is wonderful its like a rock that everyone can hear,.
if you want to be fully chromatic a two and a half row is the answer,this is what Jim Bainbridge uses.

Subject: RE: Accordion vs Melodian
From: GUEST,Brian Peters
Date: 23 May 07 - 12:10 PM

Of course - you're quite right, Mally did bring out one or more books which somehow slipped my mind. Too busy thinking about the bath panel. Although, having myself taught students who started off with Mally, I would say that (what I understand is) his emphasis on cross-rowing from an early stage in order to get the "correct" chords is not the way I would proceed.

Dick, I'm no expert on Irish-style button box, but I thought the point of B/C or C#/D or whatever is that they make possible a lot more ornamentation. And basses aren't usually essential to the Irish style (although like you I like the sound of the chords).

Subject: RE: Accordion vs Melodian
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 May 07 - 12:42 PM

I agree with you Brian,but at least he gets the pupil thinking about crossrowing.
no, you can do proper fiddle rolls on a g d button box,my partner does it,your alternatives for ornamentation are just as good, as the b c ,further more the gd[if you use cross rowing] gives more scope for smoothing phrases out if you wish it.
basses are essential to any music ,what happens is that bc players then employ a guitar or worse a bouzouki,which would be fine if the guitarists/bouzoukiits played like Willie Johnson, giving some lift to the music,most of the time they just fill out the sound,however with a good gd player the basses give the music lift,a good piano accordion player like John Clifford[JuliaCliffords husband.]can do this as well.
the c sharp d in my opinion is better suited to irish music than the b c,at least you can play the right chords in d,its no coincidence that it is used in Sliabh Luchra music,a style that is noted for its drive and danceability.

Subject: RE: Accordion vs Melodian
From: Barry Finn
Date: 23 May 07 - 02:53 PM

Wow, thanks to every body. a bit much for me at the moment, I'll have to read through a couple times again & slower.

I did have accompanyment for singing in mind & from what my singing partner tells me ADG would suit my voice best. That said I do attend Irish sessions (bodhran) so the tunes have ben burnt into my brain over the year so Iwould like to eventually like to play irish style but I don't see me at that level for quite some time, if it workd=s out at all. I have noticed that going across the rows that some note were the same on the oposing push & pull.
Thanks Brian for going into a bit of detail (hopefully we'll see each other again, soon) & thanks for the mention of watson's book. The box is a Morelli, yes, it's alot like the Hohner Corona III & is used alot in Tex-Mex except the Hohner's about 4x the money.
Thanks Anglo for the mention too about Dave Mallinson's books too, looks like I should find a copy of each.
Well it's looks like I can call it what ever I want for all that it matters. My sister once had a dog she couldn't give a name to so it answered to "shithead", I'll do better I promise. Maybe a "3 row diatonic button box" or maybe "button accordion" will do.
Thanks
Barry

Subject: RE: Accordion vs Melodian
From: Anglo
Date: 23 May 07 - 08:11 PM

To answer Brian's question, the real "point" about the B/C (and later the C#/D) accordion is simply that it is fully chromatic. With some fingering, however counterintuitive, you can play everything in it's fiddle key (or flute or pipes key if that's different) so you'd almost never be playing tunes in B, or even C for that matter, though there are a few.

And yes, you can find a lot of the decorative rolls and so forth under your fingers, but I think that comes a bit later after you've worked out the tune.

It's my understanding that on your average Irish box, whatever the keys, basses are in G and D, though you're right that they're rarely used, and even more rarely used to play the "correct" chord, more for rhythmic punctuation.

On the "Viennese" boxes, r.h. rows a fifth apart, I recall from looking at some of his books, from the beginning Mally tried to teach playing the "proper" chord on the left hand, which sometimes led to crossover fingering, and sometimes to more complex left hand fingering.

Subject: RE: Accordion vs Melodian
From: oggie
Date: 24 May 07 - 12:29 AM

Basses on a C/C# or B/C box are not necessarily in G/D. On the Erica for example they are in the home keys and you have to get them retuned, I got caught out by this many moons ago. Even when retuned a B/C box is always going to struggle to get the right chords. If you want to play a lot of chords (or you also play Morris etc) I'd always use a G/D or similar.

All the best

Steve

Subject: RE: Accordion vs Melodian
From: GUEST,pavane
Date: 24 May 07 - 02:01 AM

My ERICA is G/D, not B/C (Even though it is red, not black)

By the way, my program HARMONY can do tablature for "push-pull" boxes of all kinds, and has an option which can help you work out how to play a tune across the rows.

Download from here

Subject: RE: Accordion vs Melodian
From: treewind
Date: 24 May 07 - 04:28 AM

The "Erica" is a physical design: it's available (or was) in several tunings all equally entitled to the name "Erica", also in different colours.

Oh, and hello to Diane (just because you're paranoid, it doesn't mean everybody isn't out to get you), Martin, Brian and Bernard and anyone I've missed out.

We're up to our ears in preparing for Chippenham in the spaces between day-jobs and sleep, and looking forward to seeing all of you at a festival somewhere, I hope. Meanwhile, have a virtual beer on me!

Anahata

Subject: RE: Accordion vs Melodian
From: GUEST,Brian Peters
Date: 24 May 07 - 05:11 AM

Not wishing this to turn into a squeezer's chat thread, but have a good time at Chippenham, Anahata - one of my favourtie festivals.

Anglo, I saw you in the audience at NEFFA but you'd disappeared by the time we'd cleared the stage, otherwise I'd have stopped by for a chat. Next time.

Subject: RE: Accordion vs Melodian
From: Doktor Doktor
Date: 24 May 07 - 06:10 AM

I know the difference ...

A 120bass burns a lot longer than an Erica

;)