BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: Peg
Date: 11 Oct 02 - 11:26 AM

Doug, your sarcasm with your earlier comment was what I took umbrage with, not the speculation over whether the shooter could be a woman...BUT since you bring it up, in the VAST MAJORITY of these sorts of crimes, it is a man who is the perpetrator. Women are capable of being sharpshooters of course; that's not what is first and foremost significant about this crime. As for women being more compassionate, yes, that is often true, but the issue here is violence and psychopathology. Serial killers throughout history are nearly always (at least 99.9% of the time) MEN. I am sure you could find examples of women if you tried but that would clearly be the exception (but you are usually too lazy to dig up examples, preferring instead to criticize others' points of view for not being "factual" enough or "proven"). You seem to enjoy lording it over everyone with your love of the FACTS. That serial killers or sniper-type killers are nearly always men is a FACT. It has nothing to do with anyone being a feminist or not so leave that out of it, if you please. Facts are facts. Live with it and stop being so ornery about being called on your snotty, sexist rhetoric.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: Bagpuss
Date: 11 Oct 02 - 11:34 AM

I'm not making a point really, but I can think of at least 2 female serial killers off the top of my head: Rosemary West and Myra Hindley. However there was also a man involved in both their cases.

I don't know the rates for serial killers, but for murder/manslaughter in general in the UK, I think it's more like 90% male and 10% female perpetrators.

Bagpuss

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: Bagpuss
Date: 11 Oct 02 - 11:44 AM

Just found some stats. This site says that 8% of US serial killers are female. I'm not sure, but I have a feeling that they are less likely to use shooting as their method compared to men.

Bagpuss

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: SharonA
Date: 11 Oct 02 - 12:04 PM

Another shooting, another death: this time in Fredericksburg, Virginia, at about 9:30 am EDT today. Yet again, it was at a gas station. A white Chevy Astro van with ladder racks on top was seen near the station around the time of the shooting. Police had earlier speculated that the sniper's vehicle was a white Isuzu minivan/box-truck.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: NicoleC
Date: 11 Oct 02 - 12:04 PM

Doug, if the Prez wants to pony up some proof, I'll be happy to listen. Unsubstantiated rhetoric is not going to convince me of anything.

Now, I know Doug won't read it 'cause it doesn't come from Rush, but here's an interesting point by point commentary on the Prez's speech:
http://www.commondreams.org/views02/1009-10.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Oct 02 - 12:26 PM

Awww, c'mon, Nicole! "Unsubstantiated rhetoric" is what makes the world go round...certainly in this town, anyway. :-) It is the foundation of most successful political careers, most religions, and most advertising. Are you suggesting that we dismantle the very structures upon which our glorious civilization was built?

Hmmmmm....

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: DougR
Date: 11 Oct 02 - 12:33 PM

I will so read it, Nicole!

Peg: do you give sarcasm lessons? You're awfully good at it yourself.

I, too, believe that the shooter is male. I would not discount entirely that it could be a female though.

The state of Florida executed a woman serial killer yesterday or the day before. I believe her choice of weapon was a gun.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: NicoleC
Date: 11 Oct 02 - 12:44 PM

LH, I would never accuse the Shrub of inventing unsustantiated rhetoric. I think that honor belongs to Og the Caveman.

He just seems to like it an awful lot.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: YOR
Date: 11 Oct 02 - 12:58 PM

The vanhunt & manhunt in VA has had almost constant coverage on the radio this morning. Traffic nightmare along with the rain. I hope its' not a bystander. I'd drive off fast if I heard a gun shot.

VA would be a good state to catch this maggot in. The MD courts are gutless.

Roy

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: SharonA
Date: 11 Oct 02 - 01:24 PM

Just listened to part of a news conference on the radio while in my car. There was a VA police officer across the street from this morning's shooting, handling a traffic accident. Unfortunately the cop did not see the shooting happen; he just heard it. Apparently the white Chevy van was followed and stopped but the occupants had nothing to do with the shooting, so they still have no suspect in custody.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: M.Ted
Date: 11 Oct 02 - 01:50 PM

Given that these people are out there killing every day, there is more that I'd like to know in order to keep my family safe, and I am not hearing it in the news briefings--

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: SharonA
Date: 11 Oct 02 - 01:52 PM

Frankly, I'm worried about the wedding of Jack the Sailor and CarolC tomorrow. If anyone who's reading this is planning to attend the wedding, for Pete's sake don't stop at a gas station in MD, DC or VA (at least, not one near a major highway – that seems to be the sniper's preferred location). Be careful, everyone!!!!!

Sharon

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: DougR
Date: 11 Oct 02 - 05:38 PM

YOR, I found your comment on the courts in MD interesting. When they catch the guy (and EVERYONE agrees it must be a guy) ...oops, sarcasm...sorry! What do you think should happen to the guy?

You evidently feel the MD courts might be a bit lenient on him, right?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Oct 02 - 06:13 PM

I think the important thing is catching him, rather than what happens to him afterward (which I'm sure will not be good, from his point of view). I'm not into vengeance, but I am in favour of protecting people (needless to say). For those who are into vengeance, well, you can always look back fondly to the days of the Spanish Inquisition, burning at the stake, ripping out fingernails, etc...and think wistfully of how much better things would be if we could only return to those enlightened times. Think how much safer we would all feel...

He'll probably make a mistake and get caught presently. Just hope it happens sooner, not later.

In the meantime, you are probably still in more danger driving to work than you are from him...statistically speaking. I read yesterday in the paper that an average of 1.6 million people a year die from violence worldwide, and that the number one cause of violent death worldwide is...






Suicide.

It doesn't get reported nearly as much as most of the others, however, and this may be partly because there is no one to prosecute and/or execute for having done it. No target for vengeance, in other words.

The number two cause of violent death is traffic accidents. War and murder come a long way after the first two in your average year. This must be quite frustrating to serial killers, who obviously think the very worst of humanity...and act it out, accordingly.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Oct 02 - 06:15 PM

I read in the paper that in Maryland they have a law that for every handgun sold they keep a sample bullet case - but they don't bother to do that for rifles, so that's not much help this time around.

Sounds to me like it's someone who's decided that shoot-em-up video games aren't enough, and has moved on to doing it for real. I can't help wondering how safe it is having millions of people whose idea of fun is playing around for hours on end with fantasies of going round casually killing strangers. All with the right to buy guns with telescopic sights.

And now they are all watching this on the TV, and some of them are maybe getting ready to flip, and there'll be the copycat killings.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Oct 02 - 07:59 PM

Interesting point, McGrath. I believe that THE most popular genre of video game nowadays is the "Shooter" variety. They are really, really sick. They all involve operating from a godlike perspective, peering down the sights of the weapon of your choice, and killing, killing, killing. Killing literally hundreds of computer-generated victims, while being almost unkillable yourself (specially once you've mastered the specific tricks of the game in question...which takes many hours of play). Then, how like a "god"...or a demon.

This is pathetic. It says a lot about the society that markets such stuff.

These are the favoured games of choice amongst young males right now. It's a way of feeling powerful, and it's the powerless who seek that feeling, right?

Well, young males have always been troubled by feelings of powerlessness, but seldom has society tacitly encouraged them toward such violent and impersonal fantasies so completely devoid of any coherent meaning or philosophy in the greater context of life.

It isn't just a problem of the video game industry, it's a problem of the society in general, its entertainment system, and its heroes. Very poor role models are being provided for the young...and that is the status quo out there in the Empire. As some famous jerk in American sports history once said, "winning isn't the most important thing, it's the only thing". Uh-huh. No honour, no character, no mercy...just win..."live and let die", to use another phrase.

There's another type of game that's very popular too...the "driver" game. In most of these you drive a car at breakneck speeds through city streets, ramming other cars, driving across lawns and medians, knocking over mailboxes and pedestrians and living out your brief 15 minutes of mayhem and glory, with a herd of police cars in pursuit, until you finally total your vehicle against some unyielding surface and the game ends. No sweat. You just start over again and re-experience the thrill of being an antisocial asshole with a death wish.

Great education for young minds, isn't it?

One wonders when the free enterprise system will sweep aside another archaic taboo and start marketing "rapist" games, too? I bet they'd sell like hotcakes. And, after all, it would all be just virtual reality, right? No one would really be getting raped...so why should a bunch of bleeding heart sociologists and philosophers stand in the way of businessmen making an honest buck marketing a harmless product?

Echoes of the Fall of humanity. And all for a lousy buck.

I believe it won't be so much the swastika that a future and far wiser civilization will look back on some day with ultimate horror, as it will be the dollar sign $$$...and the other symbols of currency that presently rule the world.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Oct 02 - 09:52 PM

Hey, now I know this is gonna start something but, ahhhhhh, why is it that a nutball can go to a gun shop and not be able to buy a gun and be told by the gun shop owner to meet him at the local gun show that afternoon and be able to by the same gun? No checks. No nothing. I mean, this is one *stupid* law.

And the NRA used to stand for gun *safety*. Hahahahah. Now all they care about is making sure that any, no make that *any*, no make that ANY f**kin' nut that wants to buy a gun is gonna get one.

Excuse my French...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: Celtic Soul
Date: 11 Oct 02 - 09:55 PM

Well, as I live here, and as one of the people who died was killed less than mile from where my Father lives, and as I do not watch *any* TV, or read much news at all, I can tell you I am *still* living with fear.

It is not the media that is scary here, Bobert...

It's the fact that this guy (or guys) are managing to hit and hit and hit again, and that it appears to those I know in the know (cops and military folks) that these "hits" are being done with military precision. Like a trained sniper would in a war.   

If this guy were a kook, he'd do what the kooks do...he'd walk into a single place, and kack off as many people as he could, and then either kill himself, or get shot by the cops. Trauma, surely, but closure in a fairly short amount of time for those living in the area who did not lose someone close to them.   

But no...this guy (or guys) is *not* that kind of insane. He's another kind of insane. The cool and steely kind. The intelligent and wily kind. And *that*, my friends, is why I am afraid for nearly *everyone* I love, as they are nearly all right here in the middle of it.

Come stay with me for awhile...No TV. Just daily reports from your friends and family that someone else a mile from where they live, or at the gas station they that *very day* bought their gas, or at the shopping center they *always* go to shop, or who was *known* by someone you know, is now dead. Then you'll know for certain if it's the media or no.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: jimmyt
Date: 11 Oct 02 - 10:23 PM

Peg, I suspect Lizzy Borden had had a sex change prior to her big day!

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Oct 02 - 10:52 PM

Celtic Soul: I am so sorry that my dumb (assed) boney butt posted this thread because it has become a serious problem. When I started the thread it was in reaction (bad, Bobert...) to the over exposure by the media to the situation. While I still believe that the media has some criticism in it's pumping up the ego of this *nut*, I am very concerned that this *nut* is still out there planning his next "hit".

Makes me wanta get in my old Toyota, with my little arsonal and try to just *outthink* him and get him but, with my luck, I'd just get my butt arrested....

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: DougR
Date: 12 Oct 02 - 02:29 AM

Bobert: spoken like a true pacifist.

:>)

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Oct 02 - 07:47 AM

Surely the thing against "the media" here would be that the way in which they have dealt with this colludes with the killer, dramatising it as some kind of movie, but in real time.

Instant reward for the killer, instant feedback pushing "him" towards the next installment, the next shooting (and steady encouragement for copycat killers). Using the help in this case of some corrupt police official who leaked the information about that Tarot Card, and in the process screwed up a vital part of the police investigation.

Nothing new about this, it's how the structure of journalism has always been distorted to behave. Any journalist or publication that tries to act with integrity and responsibility is penalised by the editors, or the owners, and of the readers. And by integrity and responsibility I don't mean suppressing news, I mean journalism that writes or presents things in a straight way, rather than twisted into a shape that fits in with a preconceived notion of what will go down best with the readers or the viewers.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Oct 02 - 08:26 AM

Doug:

Hey, if I had it in my power to stop this nut by what ever minimum level of force was needed, I'd do it. There's a big difference between defending ones self and attacking folks. And notice I didn't say kill the guy. I said "get" him which is a big difference. One can stop someone without having to use *maximum* (killing) force. My weapon of choice is my .22/410 over under survival rifle. The 410 is certainly enough to defend ones self without having to kill...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: Troll
Date: 12 Oct 02 - 12:49 PM

Well, well, well. Bobert and I agree on somthing besides the 1st Amendment. The .22/410 is a dandy little self defense weapon if you can use it from concealment. It is, however, a little slow to reload and if you want to use it to wound only, you need to use #6 or #7 shot and not too close ( 10 yards?).

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Oct 02 - 12:57 PM

I imagine there might be a few amateur vigilantes like that cruising around; some of them will probably get shot by each other or by the police when they are mistaken for this guy.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: Bobert
Date: 12 Oct 02 - 02:14 PM

It's not the caliber, troll, but the *out thinking* aspect of my above post. With that said, the 410/22 will do just fine. We're not talking conventional warfare. He allready has the *range* aspect figured out so the trick is gonna have to come down to penetrating his space *undetected* and thats were the thinking part come into play.

And I predict that this is the way he will be caught.

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: DougR
Date: 12 Oct 02 - 04:43 PM

McGrath: you may well be right, and it appears our friend Bobert might be first in line! *BG*

No me, were I going after him, I think I'd prefer a M1 Garand, or Springfield 1903.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: YOR
Date: 12 Oct 02 - 11:50 PM

Hey Doug,

My comment on the MD courts is based on the fact that carrying out the death penality is on hold here in MD. Pending a long review for the last year or so (or more, don't quote me, its in the hands of the politicians and lawyers). A 'study' came to the conclusion that verticts were unfare because of race and preperation and presentation of evidence. I'm not starting a race issue here, I'm simply saying the courts and law enforcement have not done thier jobs.
----------------------

This maggot! must be stopped, caught and locked up. He should get his day (more like months) in court. And, oh yeah, were going to here about 'his civil rights'. But my feelings are, he 'Ain't worth the buckshot to blow him to hell"!.

A small victory! My 10 year old daughter has not asked me about it for the last couple of days. She's been watching 'Animal Planet'.

This has hit the DC area hard. 9/11, including the Pentagon, Anthrax and now a serial sniper. Wow!. Local TV coverage of all this has been intense and average at best.

This will not change my life. My wife, daughter and I went to 'Midnight Madness 2002' at the University of Maryland last night (MD basketball season starting pep rally). It didn't seem to bother about 17,000 other people either, great.

Its' about time to go to bed, my wife and I are doing the 5K breast cancer run/walk (I'm walking) tomorrow morning. I'll be thinking about it, but I'm going, period!

7 11 Coffee!!!!Gimme

Enjoy, Roy

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Oct 02 - 12:15 AM

Yo, Roy: How'd the Terps look? Yeah, I'm real glad to have Dixon on the Bullets, ahhh, Wizards...

Yeah, I'm not into capital punishement but I wouldn't mind spraying some buckshot on the the dude just to give him something to think about for now.

Yo' Doug: Forget them Springfields and especially that nasty M-1. Being a finger picker, just the thought of an M-1 is painfull. You know what I mean! Ouch! Yeah, I'm stickin' with the over-under.

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Oct 02 - 04:42 AM

.410 slug is 3/4 ounce .41 calibre which at the muzzle has the same velocity as a .44 magnum. Yes properly loaded a .410 can be very lethal.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: Troll
Date: 13 Oct 02 - 07:07 AM

Bobert, there's no need to worry about "M-1 Thumb" if you pay attention to what you're doing.
GUEST, you are quite correct.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Oct 02 - 08:34 AM

troll

My thumb declared independence about 30 years ago and since then seems to have a mind of it's own. I tell it to pick one bass pattern and it just goes ahead and does it's own thing, which amazinly is generally better than what I told it to do, but now thats a musical situation. I can just see the danged thing gettin' its independent thinking self inside the breech of the M-1 and going, "Wonder what happens if I do........"

Bobert

P.S. Ain't no way Iz gonna fire no *punkin ball* outta my poor old 410. No way.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Oct 02 - 09:03 AM

Sounds to me like fantasising about being a vigilante and blowing people away, or about what shold happen to this killer, is another aspect of the same culture that has people who actually go out and do it, like this one. (If it is just one by now.)

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: Troll
Date: 13 Oct 02 - 10:58 AM

Lighten up, Kevin. We're talking self-defense here, not vigilantism. I am aware that there are places in this world where people are not allowed to possess the means of protecting themselves and their families but that doesn't apply here; not yet at any rate.
Britains much vaunted gun control hasn't managed to keep arms out of Northern Ireland or in England itself for that matter.
There seems to be no lack of high explosives for bombs in London markets.
So, as I said, lighten up.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: Willie-O
Date: 13 Oct 02 - 11:13 AM

Self defense does not work against a sniper--you gotta sneak up on him from behind. If you are walking around in the affected area with a gun at the ready, you better be wearing a uniform or you may end up a corpse due to someone else's "self-defense".

This is beyond strange and evil.

And Maryland being full of guns doesn't seem to have helped the situation.

By the way Troll, in gun-controlled Canada the murder rate has always been around 10% of the US's. See, we DO have the means of protecting ourselves: laws that prevent millions of guns being easily accessed by people with criminal or impulsively violent tendencies.

Willie-O

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Oct 02 - 11:36 AM

Gee, I hope this thread doesn't morphe into a 2nd Ammendment debate though, as sure as I am that *gun control* discussions have made their way into the Catbox in the past, I wouldn't mind another go at it on another thread BUT I'm not going start one now wigth all the rest of the crap that's going down..

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Oct 02 - 12:27 PM

The lower murder rate in Canada is probably partially due to a number of other factors too. Canada has always had a less violent society, even in the 1800's. This was due to a radically different social philosophy which was: send in the law first to a new territory...then send in the settlers, prospectors, etc afterward. In the USA it was anarchy and the rule of the gun and knife first in new territories, the devil take the hindmost, and law enforcement much later (generally following the achievment of statehood). No wonder there was less violence in Canada.

This goes along with a generally aggressive and individualistic philosophy of life in the States as opposed to a more cooperatively and centrally based philosophy of life in Canada...which has a bit to do with the British Empire heritage of common law as opposed to Yankee entreprenurial spirit and self-reliance. Both approaches have certain strengths to recommend them.

Canada (up till recently, anyway) has had a better social safety net. That tends to reduce violence. Canada has fewer inner city ghettos, which again reduces violence.

People tend to imitate the example they see around them as they are growing up. So...a peaceful society has a tendency to remain that way, while a gunslinger-worshipping society has a tendency to remain that way also, and the USA has always worshipped the gunslinger, the lone guy out to "right a wrong", the hero with a dark side.

In real life these guys are almost never heroes...they are mentally disturbed sociopaths. The "Dirty Harry" character was a fascinatingly effective portrayal of the type. In fact, Clint Eastwood has built his whole career around portraying such personalities.

I'd feel a lot safer with the redcoated mounties protecting me...they only killed as a last resort (it was rarely necessary), and they were probably the most elite and effective law enforcement agency in history, back when they still rode horses on the job.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: DougR
Date: 13 Oct 02 - 02:57 PM

Don't worry, Bobert, I know the M1. Shot "Expert" with it in basic training. Never got M1 thumb even one time.

Roy: thanks for the explanation re Md law.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: Peg
Date: 13 Oct 02 - 03:39 PM

right on Wilie-O! The new film I mentioned, Bolwing for Columbine, finds Michael Moore asking just these sorts of questions abotu Canada...namely, why is it they have the same basic number of guns per capita but a tiny murder rate compared to ours? The number of gun-caused homicide deaths in Canada compared to the US in one year: Canada had 165. USA had 11,127. (Not sure which year: 2000 I think).

Peg

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: Willie-O
Date: 13 Oct 02 - 04:42 PM

Peg, the raw numbers may be correct, but haven't been adjusted for relative population of 30 million vs 260 million (?)

I agree with Bobert actually about avoiding thread creep, although frankly I don't give a shit about your 2nd amendment. That's internal US politics. We have a different approach, and as LH points out, a different history. Don't cry for us, Argentina.

No argument about gun control or lack of it really speaks to the question of why is some whacko out there sniping opportunely at apparently random, but all innocent "targets", and how can he (they) be stopped?


Willie-O

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Oct 02 - 04:43 PM

Well, you'd have to spend part of your growing-up years in Canada, and part of them in the USA...as I did...and then you would know why right away, Peg. It's basically a difference in philosophical perspective, and that is reflected on many levels, from the government right on down to the playground. Those differences are becoming more blurred, however, as the US-dominated media and entertainment systems remake Canada slowly, bit by bit, into their own image. To put it simply, taking the law into your own hands is an idea that fits far more comfortably into the American mindset than into the Canadian one.

This no doubt stems partly from the fact that America was founded upon a revolutionary war against the centralized power structure of the day (the British crown), while Canada achieved her independence from the crown through a gradual and peaceful transition. Out of those very different events grew the fundamentally different characters of these two nations.

For those who would suggest that the Queen is our monarch, and that therefore we aren't independent...you would be very wrong in that assumption. The British monarchy has the same position in Canada as Thanksgiving or Hallowe'en...it's simply an old tradition which many people are still comfortable with (and others not), but which exercises no political control over the country whatsoever.

The Queen is kind of like your great grandmother from overseas...she's an elderly relative, and you can expect to send her a card now and then on important occasions or maybe have her visit once in a long while for tea and cookies, as she has been doing for the last few days, in fact. :-)

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Oct 02 - 04:55 PM

Self defence with a rifle? Well "self-defence" has got a new pre-emptive edge to it these days in some places, I suppose. I think I'd be more worried about the self-defence heroes with rifles than about this killer if I was over there. There are more of them. (And Troll, I think you'll find that the death rate from guns in Northern Ireland at the height of the troubles didn't come near that in the United States at normal times.)

Here's a piece from today's Observer (which is kind of like the Guardian on Sunday, Doug)"Snipers are the greatest heroes among riflemen":

Two years ago, Charlton Heston, President of the National Rifle Association, predicted in Guns & Ammo magazine that 'someone will commit a terrible crime with a hunting rifle, and suddenly your deer rifle or benchrest gun will be demonised by the anti-gun media as a sinister "sniper rifle" capable of killing children and police from great distances'.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: DougR
Date: 14 Oct 02 - 12:28 AM

Willie-O: please don't confuse us with facts. :>) Any fair minded person who hates the United States would have to agree that the difference in size of the population has nothing what-so-ever to do with the subject of crime statistics. Americans are blood thirsty killers! Well, a small percentage of the population is (oops, there I go talking percentages of a very large population).

Got your message there, Kevin, it's good to know that there is a publication other than the Guardian in Great Britian! :>)

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Oct 02 - 08:03 AM

A couple of things that struck me as being odd, from the article linked in Kevin's post above were these:

"Robert Barrkman, president of Phoenix-based Robar, makers of a powerful RC-50 'counter-sniper' rifle, recently told Jane's International Defense Review that 'the proliferation of the sniper weapons is one of the few growth areas for small-arms makers'.

The Robar RC-50 is capable of piercing an armoured vehicle or a helicopter a mile away. The company has sold 20,000 of the $5,000 civilian-adapted versions."

Does this imply that there are 20,000 complete and utter pillocks over in the United States of America who somehow forsee the need to be able to shoot through an armoured vehicle or a helicopter one mile distant??

The other statement from the article, that I found rather surreal:

"Latest theories on the identity of the shooter suggest he may be someone with police or paramilitary training. According to police, however, the rounds the sniper is using are not the type favoured by professional snipers but standard bullets for popular civilian semi-automatic assault rifles."

"popular civilian semi-automatic assault rifles." - Just what the hell are they when they're at home?? Why would any normal, sane law-abiding person wish to purchase and own a semi-automatic assault rifle - what do they figure they're going to use it for?

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: harpgirl
Date: 14 Oct 02 - 08:30 AM

Well, I am sorry I read this thread. I find your remarks about weapons and bullet size especially offensive, Troll.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: Bullfrog Jones
Date: 14 Oct 02 - 08:40 AM

For self defence of course Teribus -- just to be on the safe side! Funny thing, when this thread started it was about one specific 'nut with a gun'. Now look how many more have revealed themselves....

BJ

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: Celtic Soul
Date: 14 Oct 02 - 01:09 PM

Thank you, Bobert, and really, no worries.

I am certainly a little emotional right now, but not upset at this thread. I only wanted to give a brief perspective of someone in the midst of the issue, but for whom the media does not play a part.

In all, I am prayerfully hopeful that the end is not too far off. I am keeping to my normal routines, but with some changed methods.

It canna go on forever...let's keep good thoughts for resolution sooner than later.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: An Pluiméir Ceolmhar
Date: 14 Oct 02 - 01:14 PM

At least Charlton Heston can rejoice that the guy's rights haven't been infringed.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: Glade
Date: 14 Oct 02 - 01:33 PM

Someone just mentioned that New York's Guardian Angels members went down to the Washington areas and have been pumping gas for people. If this is true, it's the sorta thing about human beings that breaks my heart. Bless them.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: YOR
Date: 14 Oct 02 - 01:54 PM

I'm slow getting back to this thread. I was sick in bed yesterday and couldn't even make it through one football or baseball playoff game without falling asleep. Hows that for staying on topic :) No energy for being online.

I did make it to the 8:00 am 5K run/walk Sunday morning which was cancelled due to current events. Win another one for the sniper. The event planners cancelled because they could not assure the safety of 500 to 600 walkers who would be spread out all over the park. Three schools and two other groups pulled out thier support the day before, so staffing the walk would have been a problem. Sure wish I had gotten that phone call or email!

Bobert, Terps looked good, 7 or 8 returns from last year (please don't ask names, I'd have to look most of them up). Midnight Madness was alot of fun. The new Comcast Center is real nice.

Roy