Dr Bob Dylan - you better believe it

Subject: Dr Bob Dylan - you better believe it
From: Mr Red
Date: 16 Jun 04 - 02:23 PM

I just heard on the radio that St Andrews University has just awarded an honarary doctorate to Bob for being an iconic musician of his age.

they have a history of selecting show biz figures - Sir Peter Ustinov was chancellor, way back.

Subject: RE: Dr Bob Dylan - you better believe it
From: Backstage Manager(inactive)
Date: 16 Jun 04 - 03:10 PM

He's been Dr. Bob for a long time now. Princeton University gave him an honorary doctorate in 1970, before he even turned 30.

Subject: RE: Dr Bob Dylan - you better believe it
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jun 04 - 03:16 PM

Physician heal thyself ...

Subject: RE: Dr Bob Dylan - you better believe it
From: Once Famous
Date: 16 Jun 04 - 03:21 PM

Now, if he could only learn how to sing.............

I'd rather listen to fingernails on a blackboard.

If there is an icon award for one of the most over rated performers, he is it.

Subject: RE: Dr Bob Dylan - you better believe it
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jun 04 - 03:24 PM

Martin Gibson,

What's the matter? You don't like Jewish performers?

Subject: RE: Dr Bob Dylan - you better believe it
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jun 04 - 03:36 PM

Legal drugs mmm he can write his own prescriptions ;-)

Subject: RE: Dr Bob Dylan - you better believe it
From: GUEST,tommy
Date: 16 Jun 04 - 03:38 PM

He's not Jewish, he's a born again Christian.

Subject: RE: Dr Bob Dylan - you better believe it
From: Big Tim
Date: 16 Jun 04 - 03:39 PM

Bob's going to be there in person to collect the award. My daughter's doing a PhD at St Andrews, maybe she can get me in the back door!

The probable link is Neil Corcoran, Dylan fan, Professor at St Andrews, author of "Do You Mr. Jones: Bob Dylan with the poets and professors" (2003).

Hope Bob enjoys himself and doesn't feel the need to write another "Day of the Locusts".

Subject: RE: Dr Bob Dylan - you better believe it
From: pavane
Date: 16 Jun 04 - 03:47 PM

Bob Dylan WAS a good folk/blues singer - up to about his 3rd album, early 1960's

Subject: RE: Dr Bob Dylan - you better believe it
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jun 04 - 03:56 PM

"He's not Jewish, he's a born again Christian."

Obviously, you're stuck way back in the past. Dylan's Christian phase, lasted a couple of years and he returned to Judaism. He even studied with the Lubavitcher Hasidim.

In any case, as the son of a Jewish mother, Dylan was still Jewish, even during his Christian phase.

Subject: RE: Dr Bob Dylan - you better believe it
From: Once Famous
Date: 16 Jun 04 - 04:01 PM

Guest, I don't care if he's Jewish or Born Again toilet paper, he can't sing.

but I do have fond memories of when I was naked with your sister.

Subject: RE: Dr Bob Dylan - you better believe it
From: harpgirl
Date: 16 Jun 04 - 04:09 PM

...anyone who can snag a doctorate without going through four years of under graduate school, two years of master's work and three to seven years of PhD school (I took four and a half)is entitled to it because I am sure they must be smarter than someone like me!

Subject: RE: Dr Bob Dylan - you better believe it
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 16 Jun 04 - 04:14 PM

In a world where intelligence is measured by cash in the bank, yes - he's smart.

I don't like his whiney voice either, Martin, I never did. But why should he learn to sing? He's done pretty well without it, why spoil the recipe of his success?

He did write some cracking songs, and I have to admit somewhat grudgingly that he was an iconic figure of our youth. So good luck to him. He did better than I did.

Subject: RE: Dr Bob Dylan - you better believe it
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 16 Jun 04 - 04:15 PM

Remember - icons are symbols. They don't have to have substance.

Subject: RE: Dr Bob Dylan - you better believe it
From: Once Famous
Date: 16 Jun 04 - 04:30 PM

Yes, he did write a few decent songs, best recorded by others especially ones who could carry a tune.

But I think icon status is totally overrated.

In my youth, I, like others, sang his songs because it was trendy to do so.

What's happened to that trend in the last 30 years or so?

Subject: RE: Dr Bob Dylan - you better believe it
From: GUEST,Chris
Date: 16 Jun 04 - 04:48 PM

The Viet Nam war was a horritlle mistake, but Dylan, Joan and others opposed it because they were opposed to just about any war - they just happened to be on the right side. This should not be the basis for iconic status.
He did write good songs that stick in the mind, even when sung by him. But, on this basis the guy who wrote the Oscar Meyer jingle should get a PHD.
I'm hoping that Positively 4th Street will be a movie -- very funny I thought.
All that said, if I could only sing one song, it would might be Don't Think Twice, but then did Dylan really write that??
Chris in Wheaton.

Subject: RE: Dr Bob Dylan - you better believe it
From: Backstage Manager(inactive)
Date: 16 Jun 04 - 05:11 PM

In my youth, I, like others, sang his songs because it was trendy to do so.

What's happened to that trend in the last 30 years or so?

Well, let's see. In the past 30 years, some of the people singing Dylan songs have included...

Joan Baez, the Clancy Brothers, Judy Collins, Ramblin' Jack Elliott, Nanci Griffith, Arlo Guthrie, Chris Hillman, Rod MacDonald, Roger McGuinn, Tony Trischka & Skyline, Dave Van Ronk, Tom Russell, Sweethearts of the Rodeo, Happy & Artie Traum, Townes Van Zandt, Doc Watson, Lucinda Williams, Tim O'Brien, Urban Folk, Jimmy LaFave, Marley's Ghost, Shawn Colvin, Dick Gaughan & Andy Irvine, Richie Havens, Gove Scrivenor, John Prine, Eric Peltoneimi, Gordon Lightfoot, Penny Lang, John Stewart & Darwin's Army, Johnny Cash, Steve Young, Chris SMither, Martin Simpson, Duke Robillard, Mo Mack, Greg Brown, the Everly Brothers, Eliza Gilkyson, Lucy Kaplansky, Ladysmith Black mambazo, Dolly Parton, Michael Johnathon, Taj Mahal, Mike Seeger, Suzzy & Maggie Roche, Sneezy Waters, Vint & Matilda, Rosalie Sorrels, Hart Rouge, Martin Carthy, John Gorka, Peter Keane, Bill & Bonnie Hearne, Hazel Dickens, Les Sampou, Steve Forbert, Rock Robbins, Bobby Watt, J.D. Crowe & the New SOuth, Cassandra Wilson, Gail davies, Trish Murphy, Albert & Gage, Caroline Doctorow, Harvey Reid & Joyce Andersen, Bill Camplin, Barb Jungr, Finest Kind, Jim Byrnes...

just to name a few.

Subject: RE: Dr Bob Dylan - you better believe it
From: cap1717
Date: 16 Jun 04 - 05:43 PM

Yup, he may not be a polished performance artist, but he sure is one hell of a good songwriter!!!

Subject: RE: Dr Bob Dylan - you better believe it
From: Joe_F
Date: 16 Jun 04 - 07:10 PM

I was at St Andrews in 1958-1959 on a Fulbright scholarship. At that time it was known as "the singing university" and had a pleasant tradition of Friday-night sings in the student union, culminating in a couple of hours of bawdry and a drunken walk to piss off the end of the town pier. I learned quite a few songs there. I was also in the choral society, and we sang songs from Burns's "Liberty", tho not to the original tunes.

I began hearing Bob Dylan around 1963, and was charmed to hear a human voice coming out of a loudspeaker. In 1965 a friend of mine, one of those I-can-get-it-for-you-wholesale types, was trying to persuade me to add a turntable to my lo-fi, and I agreed after it occurred to me that if I had one I could listen to Bob Dylan any time I wanted. Later on, the charm largely wore off, but I still enjoy a few of his early songs, such as "Don't Think Twice" (he was seldom in danger of that), "Boots of Spanish Leather", & "Chimes of Freedom", tho only the first of those is much sung today.

Subject: RE: Dr Bob Dylan - you better believe it
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 16 Jun 04 - 08:06 PM

Martin Gibson---Bless you. My sentiments exactly ---talented and greatly overated. I cannot believe that there is now a book by an esteemed professor that analyzes his works on a par with Shakespeare and Keats among others.

As to religion, mentioned by other posters; not being religious myself I don't, like dear Bob, wrap myself in the flavor of the day or the mood I am in at the time. I like that line one of you used---born again toilet paper. Great bit of humor.

Now I must go to my black board and scratch my nails on it so I too can sound like Bobby Dylan----which, by the way, is a great Eric Bogle line (having nothing to do with blackboards and scratching--rather getting sex in a motel).

Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: Dr Bob Dylan - you better believe it
From: Peace
Date: 16 Jun 04 - 08:53 PM

Springsteen did a dynamite rock version of "Chimes of Freedom" on his Amnesty International tour.

To me, the pivotal album was "Another Side of Bob Dylan." (I hope I got that right. The album with "TTAAChangin'" on it.)

And certainly "Bringing it All Back Home." This album changed the face of music, permanently. His writing style took off, and rock began to incorporate words the had something beyond "Doo Wah." That was a good thing.

But then, I have always been a fan of his. I even like his voice. He is a great singer (not so great vocalist).

Subject: RE: Dr Bob Dylan - you better believe it
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Jun 04 - 10:58 PM

Your lack of knowledge and wisdom could almost cause me to weep sometimes, Martin, if I didn't have such a good sense of humour. :-) I still like you anyway, but man, you're a blockhead at times.

GUEST - Bob Dylan is Jewish. It is perfectly possible to be a born-again Christian or a friggin' atheist AND be Jewish. Plenty of Jews ARE atheists. "Jew" is not a religious designation. Check out the numerous threads in which we have collectively talked that particular truism out ad infinitum.

To put it very simply: If one or both of your parents were Jewish, you too are considered Jewish in any society I know of, regardless of what religion you practice or even if you practice no religion at all. It's a cultural designation, indicating the cultural and familial roots from which you sprang. The very fact that the Jews, as a nation, were scattered all over the known World by the Romans after the destruction of Jerusalem guaranteed that it would be through ancestry that their sense of community would be traced...not through location or even racial type, but through marriage. So Bob Dylan is a Jew no matter what religion he decides to convert to.

As for the rest of you...and my beloved pal, Martin Gibson, the most hardheaded conventional thinker ever to grace Chicago...

It's almost not possible to overestimate Bob Dylan's impact on music and song lyrics in the last 50 years...although one can, of course, agree or disagree regarding his singing ability. I'm a very good singer (in the conventional sense)...I kid you not...and I think that he, at his best, was a superb singer...but in an entirely unconventional sense. He sang in a way that WORKED beautifully for the purpose it was put to. So did Louie Armstrong. So have many others with very unconventional vocal styles. I could name more of them, but why bother?

It's now "trendy" to sing songs by rap singers and people like "Green Day" or Celine Dionne...and the stuff they write or just record is utterly pathetic. So who cares about trends? Trends are driven by ceaseless commercial marketing these days, nothing else, and that is done through music videos these days...so why would Dylan be trendy? Shakespeare isn't trendy. Neither is Ralph Waldo Emerson. Nor is Rambaud or Goethe. Get the point? The fact that Dylan isn't trendy now speaks volumes in his favour as far as I'm concerned! He is sure not forgotten. Not among songwriters and musicians. And he WILL not be forgotten. 99% of what IS trendy now will definitely be forgotten...very soon.

I still sing Dylan's superb songs and I love them.

Subject: RE: Dr Bob Dylan - you better believe it
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 16 Jun 04 - 11:25 PM

Dylan is a magnificent writer and I am sure that in a few hundred years he will be remembered as one of the greatest writers of the 20th century.

It is real easy for hacks to mock his voice but to ignore his impact on music is showing ignorance. He not only changed the way songwriters approach a song, but more importantly he changed the way we listen to songs.

That said, I do think that some of his fans tend to put him on a pedestal where he doesn't belong.   He is a mortal folks. He has written some real crap as well. Most great writers do as well.

Subject: RE: Dr Bob Dylan - you better believe it
From: Pied Piper
Date: 17 Jun 04 - 10:44 AM

I'll not be as subtle as LH, Martin you're talkin' out you're arse mate.
The fact that you don't like his voice is fare enough but to them conclude that he is a "bad" singer is sheer self-indulgence.
Dylan gives you everything he's got with an intensity and commitment that few singers can manage.
As to the lyrics well it does take a fairly broad familiarity with the diverse cultural resources he uses, to appreciate his stuff, but that's hardly his fault.
The music particularly the electric stuff with the Band is just wonderful, check out the re-mixes of Highway 61, Blond on Blond, and any live stuff from that period.
So you played his songs because they were trendy, enough said.

Subject: RE: Dr Bob Dylan - you better believe it
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Jun 04 - 11:06 AM

Well, gol danged, folks, I venture outta the BS pen and look what's going on up here in the highbrow section! Yup, a good ol' fashion food fight...

Well, first of all, IMHO, Dylan can sing real good. Hey, you might not like his voice but that don't mean he can't sing. Anyone with a decent voice who has done many Dylan songs and really listened to him knows what I mean... He can sing circles around most folks that I've heard...

Secondly, IMHO, Dylan is still great. His never stuff is real bluesly and tells some fantastic stories. More than I can say for most of the other 60's folkies who are either resting on past laurels or just dryin' out in some rehab ward...

And for those of you who think the "times are(n't) a changin", ya gotta take the gearshift outta park...

Jus' one old folkie/bluesman's opionion..

UnDoctor Bobert, but still peddelin'

Subject: RE: Dr Bob Dylan - you better believe it
From: Steve-o
Date: 17 Jun 04 - 12:32 PM

Thanks, Backstage Manager, for the answer to Martin Gibson, who is often very entertainingly crusty, but on this subject he plays a lot more like Kay Stella. Not a one of those terrific singers on the list improved on Bob singing his own songs.

Subject: RE: Dr Bob Dylan - you better believe it
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Jun 04 - 01:52 PM

If I may name some of the finest songwriters of the 60's to now: Bob Dylan, Gordon Lightfoot, Joni Mitchell, Van Morrison, Al Stewart, Buffy Sainte-Marie (not many will name her on this list, but I do without hesitation), Jackson Browne, Jagger & Richards, Warren Zevon, Mary Chapin Carpenter, Leonard Cohen, Willie Nelson.

There are others who could be on that list too. In all the above cases there is nothing else as good as hearing them do their own material...and that goes specially for Dylan.

He was the most influential of them all. Because of marketing? No, because he was so good that there was no way he wouldn't get marketed once the other professional singers (like Joan Baez, for instance) got wind of what he was doing and flipped out over it, and started recording it themselves.

People who listened only superficially to what was most popular and because it was "trendy" to do so at the time have got less than even a clue about it. If they were 19 now they'd be rhapsodizing over Green Day, Korn, or Eminem...or some other godawful stuff like that.

There is nothing much in mainstream music now that even approaches the incredible originality and brilliance that took the music industry by storm and completely transformed it between 1960 and 1975...courtesy mainly of the people I listed at the beginning of this post, and some others at the time (specially the Beatles).

Dylan got the Beatles interested in writing songs that meant something, as opposed to just silly love songs. Dylan affected the Stones powerfully too. He was the biggest lyrical influence on Hendrix. He was the biggest influence on Springsteen and probably on David Bowie too. Hell, he was the biggest influence on almost everybody that seriously wrote songs between 1962 and the decades that followed. He will be remembered longer than any other popular songwriter of his time, and he will be remembered as a poet too, not just a musician.

This doesn't mean he's a super being of some kind or on some unique pedestal of perfection. It doesn't mean that he didn't write some lacklustre material now and then. It just means he had a great gift and he used it to powerful effect. Good for him.

Subject: RE: Dr Bob Dylan - you better believe it
From: Pied Piper
Date: 17 Jun 04 - 02:58 PM

She deserves to be there for "Universal Soldier" alone

Subject: RE: Dr Bob Dylan - you better believe it
From: Peace
Date: 17 Jun 04 - 03:38 PM

Piney Wood Hills.

I think MC Carpenter is one of the greatest female writers ever. She can turn a phrase and shape a melody. I love her work.

Subject: RE: Dr Bob Dylan - you better believe it
From: GUEST,Augie
Date: 17 Jun 04 - 03:46 PM

I think it's most appropriate that Dylan has once again become Dr. Z.The primary meaning of the word "doctor" is teacher (yeah, I know, along with egghead,asshole,rich bastard, insurance company lackey,nerd,bookworm,etc.,etc.,etc.) and you have to admit that it's pretty much impossible to listen to Dylan's lyrics and not be taught something (this may be true even if your as wise as Martin).Granted, the real trick is to decipher what in the heck he's saying unless you hold the lyric sheet in your hand, but really, would we have liked those songs of the 60's as much if he'd have sounded like Perry Como or Sinatra?

Subject: RE: Dr Bob Dylan - you better believe it
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Jun 04 - 03:55 PM

"it's pretty much impossible to listen to Dylan's lyrics and not be taught something"

Yeah. Unless you don't listen. :-) It's my impression that about 85-90% of the public doesn't really listen to song lyrics. They just groove with the beat and sing along on the chorus. They are not looking for content, and they don't find any. They are bereft of philosophy or self-analysis, they seek entertainment only. They are beings of the status quo, grooving to the trends, consuming the consumable, questioning nothing. They are sheep.

Dylan is as challenging for his time as the greatest writers of the past were for theirs...if you listen and think about it. He's nothing if you don't. Just "a big noise", like that guy complained in "Don't Look Back".

Irate young English guy: "You're just a big noise!"

Dylan: "I'm a bigger noise than you."

Subject: RE: Dr Bob Dylan - you better believe it
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 17 Jun 04 - 04:49 PM

Robert F Zimmerman [If I were a Carpenter?] He's a unique songwriter.
OK so he's not a singer in the accepted sense of the word, but nobody else can deliver certain of his songs like he does.
I keep thinking there was a Dr Bob in The Muppets. Or am I getting mixed up with Dr Dick in Cybill?
Giok

Subject: RE: Dr Bob Dylan - you better believe it
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 17 Jun 04 - 04:54 PM

Robert F Zimmerman [If I were a Carpenter?]

Now I'm really confoosed. Didn't Tim Hardin write If I Were A Carpenter? And isn't Dr Zimmerman's middle name Allen?

Subject: RE: Dr Bob Dylan - you better believe it
From: Steve Latimer
Date: 17 Jun 04 - 11:13 PM

Yeah, he's a bum who can't sing, steals peoples tunes and writes non-sensical lyrics. I think I'll go listen to Celine.

Subject: RE: Dr Bob Dylan - you better believe it
From: GUEST,Gerry
Date: 18 Jun 04 - 12:20 AM

I'm glad Big Tim mentioned Day Of The Locusts back up toward the top of this thread. Those locusts were the grandparents of the ones that emerged in the Eastern US this Spring. 2004 - 1970 = 34 = 2 x 17, two generations of 17-year locusts.

Subject: RE: Dr Bob Dylan - you better believe it
From: alanabit
Date: 18 Jun 04 - 03:09 AM

I recall being at Crewwe and Alsager, a very liberal college, back in the early eighties. I was doing a Creative Arts Degree and considering writing my dissertation on Bob Dylan. When I realised just how much I was going to have to do to write anything which made sense about Dylan, I backed out pretty quickly. I stuck with the (relatively) unsophisticated work of Woody Guthrie. I didn't write anything profound or original, but I was able to comprehend the man's achievements and at least give some realistic assessment of his importance.
To his detractors, the breadth and depth of Dylan's work are pretensions. Essentially, he gives them far more in a song than they ask for. I think that's why some people like him so little and others rate him as brilliant. I fall into the latter category.
Dylan effectively pioneered a new kind of song. He gave us the complex psychological profile - the most detailed character sketches ever to be attempted in songs. Blowing in the Wind and Chimes of Freedom are great symbolic songs, but they don't have the revolutionary complexity and ambition of Ballad of a Thin Man or It's Alright Ma I'm Only Bleeding. Who else would have tried to show what the world looks like from the point of view of a moralist who is going mad? For all their perception and irony, you don't get that from Lorenz Hart or Cole Porter.
Dylan takes the subject matter of serious playwrights and novelists and presents it in accessible songs. For me that is genius and his honorary doctorate is well merited.

Subject: RE: Dr Bob Dylan - you better believe it
From: mooman
Date: 18 Jun 04 - 04:06 AM

IMHO Bob thoroughly deserves his honorary doctorate.

A great songwriter.

Peace

moo

Subject: RE: Dr Bob Dylan - you better believe it
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 18 Jun 04 - 04:15 AM

Sorry to be picky, but can you be a Born-again Christian if you weren't a Born-the-first-time Christian?

All kinds of funny people get honorary doctorates; even Mrs Thatcher has one or two. None of them are going to be universally popular, are they? I don't care, myself.

Steve

Subject: RE: Dr Bob Dylan - you better believe it
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 18 Jun 04 - 04:20 AM

Sorry your Grace, just one of my rotten puns, the word zimmerman is an German occupational surname, and means a carpenter. The middle initial should be A for Allen, put it down to my advancing years.
Giok

Subject: RE: Dr Bob Dylan - you better believe it
From: GUEST,The Jester
Date: 18 Jun 04 - 05:53 AM

But it's allright Ma if I can't please him

Subject: RE: Dr Bob Dylan - you better believe it
From: Ron Davies
Date: 18 Jun 04 - 06:26 AM

"Martin Gibson" doesn't like Dylan--well, consider the source. As he is close to the perfect negative indicator, Dylan fans should rejoice.

Subject: RE: Dr Bob Dylan - you better believe it
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Jun 04 - 08:00 AM

That's not what "born-again Christian" means, Steve. It means born from ordinary consciousness into Christ consciousness. It means essentially a rather similar thing to what "self-realization" or "enlightenment" mean in the Asian tradition. It does not mean being "Christian" a second time.   :-)

I laugh at people who describe Dylan's lyrics as "incomprehensible", given the fact that I have no difficulty comprehending them myself. Only one thing puzzles me...why is "Ballad of a Thin Man" full of what appear to be homosexual metaphors? I have never figured that one out. Other than that, the meaning in the song is quite clear, as it is in his other songs. It's poetic imagery and metaphor, that's all...but it's completely opaque to certain literal minds who would rather listen, I suppose, to Lynnard Skynnard or some other simple-minded shit like that.

Subject: RE: Dr Bob Dylan - you better believe it
From: Jim McLean
Date: 18 Jun 04 - 08:03 AM

Was Christ Jewish then, but only on his mother's side?

Subject: RE: Dr Bob Dylan - you better believe it
From: Pied Piper
Date: 18 Jun 04 - 08:16 AM

Heard your songs of freedom and man forever stripped
Acting out his folly while his back is being whipped
Like a slave in "orbit" he's beaten 'til he's tame
All for a moment's glory and it's a dirty, rotten shame.

I always thought that obrbit is wrong and that what Dylan intends is "all but" as in "all but name" an implied ryme with shame.

Well LH what ya reckon?

Subject: RE: Dr Bob Dylan - you better believe it
From: Stephen R.
Date: 18 Jun 04 - 10:41 AM

Jim McLean, yes, that's right. But since Judaism is reckoned matrilineally, that's the important side for this question.

Stephen

Subject: RE: Dr Bob Dylan - you better believe it
From: Peace
Date: 18 Jun 04 - 07:45 PM

If you're a born-again anything, do ya get a second belly button?

Jaysus, try to pick Dylan's best hundred songs. Don't include any that weren't really, really good. Doing that ought to tell us something.

Bruce M

To start:

The Times TAA Changin'
Ramona
B in the W
Tamborine Man
Visions of Johanna
Masters of War
WG on Our Side
Medgar Evers
Positively Fourth Street
Like a Rollin' Stone
Oxford Town

OK, I'm sorry. Make it 200--I'm still in the '60s.
LH: I know you're a fan. Let's do this.

BM

Subject: RE: Dr Bob Dylan - you better believe it
From: Once Famous
Date: 18 Jun 04 - 09:45 PM

Glad to see there are others who feel the same way about this over-ratedsinger named Bob Dylan. Saying things like he doesn't have a good voice but he sure can sing borders on saying " Her ass is cute, but it sure can stink after she eats a burrito."

I acknowledge that he wrote some good songs, so did Kris Kristofferson and Burt Bacharach. These three should go on tour together and belch their songs into a microphone.

Songwriting is an art and a talent. So is singing. My hat is off to the artists who have all the tools, songwriting, musicianship, and a voice to sing.

Dylan is a very one dimensional artist.

Subject: RE: Dr Bob Dylan - you better believe it
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Jun 04 - 10:10 PM

Martin,

You apparently are a singer or you'd have more respect for Dylan's singing... I'll admit that his voice isn't always *on* but when it is, there is a lot of range to it and a lot of interpretational inflections that a lot of run of the mill *pretty* singers can't begin to duplicate.

Yeah, Dylan gets a bad rap from a lot of folks who aren't singers because they just don't happen to like his voice. The two are not the same. Hey, some true singers don't like his voice but know good singing when they hear it... My wife is a good example. She is classically trained, has sung in musicsals on stage, sings and performs solos at a very large perstigious church, teaches music and acknowledges that Dylan can sing, but hates his voice...

Kind have to seperate the two, my friend...

Fir me, I like Dylan's voice and over the last 40 years (ouch...) of my own playing, songwriting and performing, I've taken a lot from from listening to Dylan and still listen to Dylan to this very day...

And it hasn't hurt me one bit, because a member of the Arhie Edawrds Blues Foundation, I'm always asked to lead a couple of songs when we play festivals...

Bobert

Subject: RE: Dr Bob Dylan - you better believe it
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Jun 04 - 01:30 AM

I'm a professional quality singer too, and I KNOW Dylan can sing....like a friggin' hurricane...or he could, I mean, up until quite recently. Cigarettes and whisky have mostly destroyed his voice by now, specially the upper range. I know from listening to his recordings that he had a greater range than I do, and mine is quite good. I'm amazed sometimes at the high notes he hit in his early career (and I don't mean falsetto either). He could sing both lower AND higher than I can...on pitch. I've seen a movie where he and Tom Petty sing into the same mike on some songs at the same time. His voice is twice as powerful as Petty's. Now, Tom Petty is thought to be able to sing okay by most people, right? People who say that Dylan "can't sing". Well, Dylan blows Petty right off the stage in those scenes. This was in the 80's.

Martin, you are in a pitiable state. I suggest a stiff shot of Jack Daniels and a dip headfirst in the old rain barrel or somethin'. :-) You're losin' it, man. You're makin' a monkey out of yourself, and it's makin' Chongo jealous. Just stop, okay? (grin)

Dylan "one-dimensional"? Holy hoppin' Jaysus, man, what are you on???? He's the most multi-dimensional performer in popular music. You must've smoked waaaay too much dope back then.

Lookie here, Martin...a superficial and fragmentary knowledge of any artist's repertoire can easily give the impression that the artist is one-dimensional, when really it's the problem of the observer, not the artist in question. If all you know is a few of his well known radio hits, you don't know much about Bob Dylan.

Pied Piper - Yeah, the word "orbit" is a little strange in that context. It works, but it's odd. I always wondered if the "songs of freedom" was a swipe at Joan Baez or at Dylan himself when younger (or both)...or at the industry in general...or all three. Here's another odd line from the same song: "In this world of fiberglass I'm searching for a gem"

Fiberglass is not the word I would have chosen in that line, although the metaphor is clear as to what he means. I would have maybe said "artifice" or something. Fiberglass indicates that which is fabricated and artificial, yes, but still it doesn't ring quite right for me.

There are some great lines in the song though...

"The crystal ball upon the wall hasn't shown me nothing yet
I've paid the price of solitude, but at least I'm out of debt"

When he speaks of someone being "beaten till he's tame...all for a moment's glory and it's a dirty rotten shame" I think he is speaking very much of his own experience in being a hugely famous performer, used by wealthy managers (like Albert Grossman) and wealthy record companies...beaten till tame...all for the moment's passing glory of fame...and realizing at the end that he's been used for a totally empty and ultimately pointless endeavour that did not deliver him from bondage or make him happy. Seduced by the glory, used up, and cast off when exhausted. A slave in orbit? Yeah. Sign a contract to do, say, 300 shows a year and you ARE a slave in orbit...going around and around the World again and again, while the management gets rich and you get strung out and lose your private life and your health. It's happened to so many, not just Dylan. It nearly killed him by '66, until he abandoned it (temporarily) in 1967 and stopped touring and looked for salvation in marriage and children and a quiet home life away from the fame.

Eight years later the marriage failed, which had to be his greatest disillusionment of all...and he returned to doing the one thing he appeared destined to do, go out on a stage and play music. He has done so ever since.

It ain't the fame, it ain't the glory, it ain't the money...it's the experience of actually playing the songs live. That's what counts. A recording is just a snapshot of a moment in the past. A live performance is the real thing, moving and breathing right in your hand. Nothing else like it, so he keeps doing it as long as he can.

Subject: RE: Dr Bob Dylan - you better believe it
From: kendall
Date: 19 Jun 04 - 07:33 AM

He wrote some go0d songs...he also stole some good songs.
For tnstance, Don't think twice was his rewrite of his friend's song, Who's gonna buy you ribbons. I must admit, Dylan's song was better than the original.