BS: America: the World hates you

Subject: America: the World hates you
From: GUEST,the little general
Date: 01 Nov 01 - 11:38 AM

Does anyone have info on the news story in which an Anti-U.S. protester in Pakistan was waving a sign that said (in English) "Think America Why the World Hates You" or something like that. I have trouble with that mentality whether it is voiced by a radical muslim or a snitty European. The last time that I checked, the WTC bombing killed people from about 60 different nations. If the world hates us, what in the hell were all those people doing here. If the world hates us then why do people from every nation in the world immigrate here. Ditto for the 8 million plus muslims who are citizens here.

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: 53
Date: 01 Nov 01 - 11:46 AM

ditto, to everything you posted that was a good post, if they hate america, then they can get the hell out, cause we don't need them anyhow. BOB

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: Kim C
Date: 01 Nov 01 - 11:57 AM

It's the same mentality that says things like, the French are rude. I went to France and everyone was really nice to me. I was shocked and amazed. All my life I heard, French people are pompous and arrogant blahblahblah. That was certainly not the experience I had. Everyone I encountered was pleasant and willing to help - maybe because I made the effort to speak a little French, and not insist that they spoke English. Funny how that works.

I know there are people who hate America. There are plenty of Americans who hate other people too. Anyway, I still believe most people are good and kind and willing to aid their fellow man, and that MOST people DON'T hate us. So there. :-P

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: Scabby Douglas
Date: 01 Nov 01 - 11:58 AM

And do you think the world hates you?

If the world did really utterly hate you then the situation you describe would not have arisen - no-one would migrate to the States, and the WTC would have only had US citizens inside.

If you seek truth, rational debate, and logically coherent statements, do not look for them in the placards of demonstrators at a rally.. do not seek them either in the statements of politicians or newspaper headlines...

you won't find them there...

Cheers

Steven

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 01 Nov 01 - 12:00 PM

theyre ignorant. and theyve been fed propaganda for years. Admitedly While US foreign policy has sometimes been more expedient than farsighted they did not warrant this kind of an attack and this hatred. The drive for modernization in the middle east and much of the Islamic world has failed over the last 40 years, they see the west getting richer and more powerful so they need someone to blame and who to blame except the last superpower, which is the main exporter of western culture, consumerism etc. THere was an excellent article in last Saturdays Globe and Mail by a (Muslim) Harvard professor that stated exactly that, much of the so called roots of the problem lie in the Islamic world. Ill try to find it. (They of course have seized on the one thing that didnt come out of the west and that is Radical Islam). I dont know where its headed but I can say that an Iranian fellow I shared a house with said that many of the young people in Iran dont care for radical Islam, they just want to live like in the west, and the young in fact are the greatest danger to the Revolutionary guard.

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: catspaw49
Date: 01 Nov 01 - 12:00 PM

Not surprising....We've had about two dozen American bashing threads HERE.......It's the way of things.....

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: TamthebamfraeScotland
Date: 01 Nov 01 - 12:05 PM

If America goes around bombing other countries without trying to talikng about peace and trying to resolve suitutions then you wonder why other countries don't like you. I beleive in turning the other cheek, or if it get it wrong then I'll say I was wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: Kim C
Date: 01 Nov 01 - 12:11 PM

Yes, well, most of us only have one other cheek, don't we? So what do you do when that runs out?

You can only reason with reasonable people.

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: DougR
Date: 01 Nov 01 - 12:14 PM

Well good for you, Tam the bam. I wonder, however, were you to lose a loved one, as so many did at the WTC, in your own country, if you would feel so charitable about it.

Kim: Of course the French were nice to you! Who could not be nice to Kim C.? :>)

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: SDShad
Date: 01 Nov 01 - 12:20 PM

Well, Kim, I've got two to spare after those. Usually works better to ask them to kiss those two, but.... :-)

But so long as we're using Jesus-talk here, I don't think we can take him too literally on the "running out of cheeks" argument, since this is the same guy who, when asked, "Master, how many times should I forgive my brother? Seven?" replied, "Seven? No, Seventy times seven."

Just picking nits.

C.

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: GUEST,the little general
Date: 01 Nov 01 - 12:23 PM

Tam misses my point. It is inaccurate to say that other countries do not like the U.S. Rather, the media feeds us sound bites or footage of the most vocal critics rather than emphasizing the strong support that is there as well. Then people feel justified in making gross generalizations about how the "world" or "countries" feel about us.

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: kendall
Date: 01 Nov 01 - 12:28 PM

My therapist ex wife would call that a projection. The person holding the sign hates us, and, he's looking for a "club" (someone to agree with him)

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: bob jr
Date: 01 Nov 01 - 12:41 PM

well i am gonna throw my two cents into the ring here because as much as i abhor the actions of those extremists on sept 11 americans need to wake up to how you are percieved by the rest of the world. think about american actions in guatemala nicauraga iran (backing the shah) israel etc think about americas' govt backing tinpot dictators in indonesia for the past 40 odd years so you could get cheap shoes, think of american companies exploiting cheap labour in india while at the same time pollutting and killing people there (bopol you all must remeber that ) remeber the affluent lifestyle you enjoy comes at a cost for people living elsewhere in the third world and resentment is bound to follow. as for what these extremists had against america speciffically well that would take about 3 hours to explain but its worth your while to find out its always wise to understand your enemies motives.

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: GUEST,the little general
Date: 01 Nov 01 - 12:47 PM

You mean how we are percieved by SOME people in some places. And our actions in a lot of those places may not have been brilliant, but probably aren't as bad as SOME people paint them. For example, I'm not sure that backing the Shah was so bad when you consider the two decades of rule by religious fanatics that followed his ouster.

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: Kim C
Date: 01 Nov 01 - 01:00 PM

SDShad, of course you are right about that. The point I was trying to make is, what do you do when the 490 times run out? What do you do when there is nothing else to discuss?

I don't recall that Jesus reasoned with the moneychangers in the temple.

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: kendall
Date: 01 Nov 01 - 01:02 PM

Dont forget Bob jr. not all of us approve of what our governments have done over the years. Some of us are history majors, and we know full well what has gone on.

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: Mrrzy
Date: 01 Nov 01 - 01:04 PM

A lot of people hate a lot of (other) people. I would agree that it's based on ignorance and propaganda in most cases, it's just that that is as true -if not more so- in the States as anywhere else.

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: kendall
Date: 01 Nov 01 - 01:09 PM

This in no way excuses what the USA has done, but, remember, the British government started bullying people in the 16th century!

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: GUEST,the little general
Date: 01 Nov 01 - 01:16 PM

Actually, the English were bullying the Scots and Irish a lot earlier than that, but it is still inaccurate to say that the Scot and Irish hate the English, nor would it justify flying a plane into Buckingham Palace.

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 01 Nov 01 - 01:18 PM

Bob jr, you have a very good point. Nobody holds a corner on saintliness in the world, and to try to stuff the present situation into the mold of "Good Us" vs. "Evil Them" doesn't help anybody except the people who make the bombs. Sure, the U.S. has a lot to be proud of...and also a lot to be ashamed of. One doesn't negate the other.

There are many moderate Muslims all around the world who don't want to destroy the U.S. It would be a great step towards ending terrorism if we helped those moderates gain a voice and power in their respective countries. Unfortunately, those moderates can't speak out because of repressive fundamentalist governments in those countries. But, uh-oh, those repressive fundamentalist governments happen now to be on our side in our war against Afghanistan. Oops, I mean our war against the Taliban. Oops, I mean our war against terrorism. Oops, I mean our war against Osama Bin Laden. Who might be in Colombia for all we know.

I remember when this bombing started, I was relieved to hear that our goal was to "eliminate the air defenses to make it possible to bring humanitarian aid to the people of Afghanistan." Anybody care to count the number of tons of bombs dropped compared with the number of pounds of food? Proposals to stop the bombing during Ramadan and allow aid teams to enter the country have not been kindly received by our leaders. Sorry, folks, I don't believe anything "our leaders" say any more.

I think that the United States is a wonderful country. I'm grateful to be living here. I'm proud of everything Americans have done and are doing to make the world a better place.

And I also think think that some people in the military and some big corporations and some politicians are trying taking advantage of this situation to try to turn America into a monster, for the sake of their own greed and their own power, against America's heritage of freedom, and against the REAL will of the American people. That's my view, anyway.

Aloha,
Mark

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: Kim C
Date: 01 Nov 01 - 01:26 PM

Also let us consider the large numbers of refugees who come to the US to get away from people like Saddam Hussein and Osama bin Laden. Some of them were professional people with good jobs who lost EVERYTHING to come here.

bob jr, are you saying Canada doesn't import any cheap shoes?

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: TamthebamfraeScotland
Date: 01 Nov 01 - 01:34 PM

as the old saying goes Two wrongs don't make a right.

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 01 Nov 01 - 01:36 PM

Canada doesn't support dictators to get cheap shoes or cheap bananas etc. But to be fair, Canada doesn't have too if the US does it.

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Nov 01 - 01:43 PM

If they hate America, then they can get the hell out>/I>

Someone in Pakistan who points out that there are people who hate America should get out the hell out of Pakistan? Interesting logic there. Actually it makes sense when you think about it - if you never leave your own country and culture your opinion about the rest of the world is a bit suspect. I seem to comments about Bush Jr to this affect.

In fact there is nothing in itself unfriendly or hostile in asking the question on that poster. Clearly it is an excellent idea for anybody anywhere to understand why it is that they are hated by someone else. And equally clearly there are a lot of people in various parts of the world who would say that they hate America.

If the question had been "Think America why the world loves you" it would have been just as oversimplified - as posters always are - and just as sensible advice.

After all, it's perfectly possible to be loved for your bad qualities and hated for your good ones. Know your enemies. Know your friends. And most of all, Know Yourself, which is supposed to be the beginning of wisdom.

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: 53
Date: 01 Nov 01 - 01:56 PM

i'm an american, and i'm glad we're bombing the hell out of the taliban, and i hope that we invoke as much destruction on them as they did on us, i'm tired of the usa layingdown, now the sleeping giant is awake and we are going to kick some major ass. BOB

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: TamthebamfraeScotland
Date: 01 Nov 01 - 02:07 PM

I think you mean the English government were bullying the Irish in the 16th century, because Scotland was an free Country at that time and not had nothing to do with 'bullying the Irish'. We in Scotland had our own government at that time. until 1707.

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: Kim C
Date: 01 Nov 01 - 02:12 PM

Well the Vikings were bullying all of you way before that.

And my Dutch ancestors tried to bully the whole darn world. Including the English.

We're all friends now.

So just how is Canada able to get Cuban cigars?

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: DougR
Date: 01 Nov 01 - 02:15 PM

Well, Mark, if you consider polls to be credible (major reliable pollsters) you are wrong about the "will of the people." The polls show that the American people overwhelmingly support the administration's management of the war. If the majority did not agree that we should be at war with the terrorists, I doubt they would give such strong support to the president and the military.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: 53
Date: 01 Nov 01 - 02:17 PM

doug r, you hit the nail on the head. BOB

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: TamthebamfraeScotland
Date: 01 Nov 01 - 02:19 PM

The bombing of terrorists will not stop them from doing it, because in Israel they being bombing terrorists since 1967 and maybe even before that and they still have it in that country, and also here in Britain we had terrorists for 30 years, and it still goes on, as I say you can't just go in there an bomb the country thinking that it will stop terroristim in the world.

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: GUEST,the little general
Date: 01 Nov 01 - 02:33 PM

I was under the impression that the English had made attempts to conquer Scotland going back to the 14th century.

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: catspaw49
Date: 01 Nov 01 - 02:34 PM

"It seems to me I've heard this song before
It's from an old familiar score
I know it well, that melody",br>

Just to inject some musical content.......I figure a lot of Sammy Cahn stuff will be folk in another 30-40 years........

Sorry for the intrusion...Now go back to flailing those ex-equines.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Nov 01 - 02:40 PM

Surely "kicking some major ass" implies a battle against someone of comparable size and strength? The Taliban regime doesn't measure up to that.

The eminent miltary historian Professor Sir Mucharl Howard recently camed up with a memorable and thought provoking image recently, when he described the bombing of Afghanistan as "trying to eradicate cancer cells with a blow torch".

Here is an article containing what he had to say.

And here is a recent article from The Washington Diplomat which puts Sir Michael into context - he is no pacifist lefty by any means. I think what he says deserves to be pondered very seriously indeed.

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: TamthebamfraeScotland
Date: 01 Nov 01 - 02:46 PM

In 1314 at Bannockburn, Robert the Bruce won and for nearly 300 years Scotand was a free country, and then in 1707 the act of union was past and that meant that the two governments of both Scotland and England were as one. Look up the words to 'Parcel of Rouges' which was written by Robert Burns, the 'Parcel of Rouges' in the song was the Scottish MP'S who sold Scotland freedom for gold. Yes many a Scottish MP took English bribes that day.

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: catspaw49
Date: 01 Nov 01 - 03:13 PM

Did he have a big bruce? Was that pretty well known or what? I mean did people walk up to him and say "How's it hangin' Bob?" Was he much in demand by the ladies?

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Nov 01 - 03:31 PM

Bruce? You learn something every day here. Not a meaning that seems to have come my way. Is it confined to America?

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: catspaw49
Date: 01 Nov 01 - 04:01 PM

Actually Mac, it's an old Steve Allen joke. No, it's not in common use anywhere really, just to some diehard Steverino fans.

But ya' know.....that's EXACTLY what the joke was about. He once turned to a guest and blurted, "How's your bird?" and bird became a synonym in everybody's mind so he ran with it and said that you could turn any word into a dirty word and suggested "Bruce." So........

How's your Bruce?

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: Kim C
Date: 01 Nov 01 - 04:03 PM

Synonym for what?

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 01 Nov 01 - 06:18 PM

Anyone care to tot up how many countries America has bombed since WW2? I'll have a stab at it, if no-one else comes back with the answer.

No wonder the US favours an anarchic world order in which each nation recognises no authority higher than its own. Why throw your weight into building up international values and institutions, if your country is the strongest?

The only problem is that the strongest nation is suddenly looking impotent and vulnerable. Maybe that inclusive approach might have had something to be said for it after all.

Anyway, 53 and co, I suggest you wallow in that B52 carpet bombing while you can, cos who knows, the Taliban might take it the way the Viet Cong did. Or maybe you've managed to expunge the memory of gunships being tipped off a US carrier, to accommodate those who lucky enough to flee the Saigon embassy, while hundreds of America's South Vietnamese allies were shamefully abandoned to the enemy?

Just be sure your water supplies, subway systems, power stations, fresh air, etc, etc, are ALL under armed guard, from now till kingdom come... And even then, it might not be smart to sleep easy at night.

The Pentagon is claiming to have dropped 3,000 bombs so far - from million-dollar missiles that wander off course and hit Red Cross stores, to cluster bombs that will kill children for years to come. All dropped by the richest nation on to one of the poorest - and regardless of the misery it is bringing to people who have good reason to hate the Taliban more than you do, 53.

I'm not sure whether all this comes under the heading of "proportionate," even allowing for the Pentagon's difficulty with truth. (Remember their claims to have shot down four times more Iraqi scuds than Iraqi had in the first place? Turned out they've got no evidence that they ever hit one.) But I don't mean to spoil your happiness, 53. I'm just glad you're no way representative of the Americans I know.

The joke/tragedy is, of course, that this marvellously "proportionate" respose simply won't work. And if it did, you wouldn't know, because no two people who support the whole fiasco can agree on what the aims are.

Meanwhile, the American economy has failed to get the hoped-for soft landing, and looks like crashing to earth with a bang (according to first assessment of end-October figures); and the administration is at last beginning to realise what a colossal target the whole place has become, for all the new enemies it is doing its best to create.

Not sure how this war plays with those like Spaw, who thought the solution might lie in a response just a tad more "surgical" than we're seeing. Maybe it's time they realised that what we are seeing is about as surgical as war gets.

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 01 Nov 01 - 06:59 PM

Hear, hear, Fionn

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: kendall
Date: 01 Nov 01 - 07:03 PM

Doug, does the fact that the majority of Americans support the bombing make it right? The majority of Americans did not vote for Bush. How do you reconcile that?

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Nov 01 - 07:10 PM

The majority of Americans didn't vote. Period.

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Nov 01 - 07:20 PM

Anyone remember this thread?

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: Amos
Date: 01 Nov 01 - 07:36 PM

We are unfortunate enough to be in a war, on a war footing, and as usual, the war we are in now does not respond to the lessons we learned the last time we were dumb enough to get into a war.

Getting into a war is, in many ways, a confession of incompetence and mismanagement. Skilled handling of relationships and public relations and diplomacy has failed over and over again.

But being in a war is like being pregnant; you may regret it but there is no turning back gracefully. This was was thrust upon us in a violent and dramatic upgrade, even if we were too stupid to see the formative conditions, the prequelae, shaping up whe they might have been handled by less extreme means. Now it is a death struggle.

It is not just an embarassing negotiation or a diplomatic problem at the present point. And the present point is what has to be handled,

As for "hating the United States" this is a ridiculous, semantically null expression for those who (a) don't what the United States is or means, having never seen mor eof it than one mis-aimed bomb or shell in their living rooms or (b) are using the term misguidedly for personal advantage, the "Let's you and them fight" method of political control.

The WTC was not turned to bloody ashes by demonstrators or by rhetoric, however much they may have initiated the motion. The building was smashed terrorist troops under the mission control of a psychotic desert-rat trying to disguise himself as a religous zealot. This is bullshit, a manipulative cover story with no more substance than last week's sit-com. He is about as religous as a turkey turd, appearances notwithstanding.

A

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: GUEST,Peace Man
Date: 01 Nov 01 - 07:51 PM

Amos,

It's NOT a war.

Have a look in a dictionary.

This is (or should be) a criminal investigation.

Unfortunuatly the FBI, CIA etc haven't got a clue.

So we carpet bomb Afghanistan, in the knowledge that the known perpetrators of 9/11 came from Eygpt and Syria...

Go figure!

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: GUEST,A Friend
Date: 01 Nov 01 - 07:54 PM

Well, here is a summary of what the right-leaning centrist journal "World Press Review" published last month, in it's international survey of the world press in the wake of 9/11 (I apologize for length):

From The Guardian, London, England.

"Dismay at U.S. foreign policy, distrust of George Bush's temperament, fear of the hawks, understanding of the Palestinians who cheered at the news, sympathy for other Arabs whose cities have been bombed and children starved, indignation at the huge imbalance in wealth between the Third World and the West. None of this should inhibit our sense of tragedy and outrage.

"The Pentagon had blood on its hands. The World Center was a pillar of mammon. But no one deserved to die in that way…When the dust clears, the scary new order will appear. This is the last week of the world as it was."

From Ideele, Lima, Peru.

"Revenge is not a solution. The problem is that 'them' is so vague. A country? A people? A culture? A religion? A race? A massive attack on the civilian populations of countries that could be protecting terrorists will feed the hate and resentment this phenomenon lives on. It will be an attack on everyday, average folks, like those affected in New York or Washington, who just happened to have been born in a different place in the world….As the people and the leaders of the United States identify Arabs and Muslims as the enemy they need to fight, we are talking about billions of human beings, something like one of every five people on Earth."

From Al-Ahram, Cairo, Egypt.

"Indeed, the United States has managed to turn the love and admiration that peoples around the world once felt for America as a champion of liberty, democracy, and self-determination into universal suspicion and distrust—a transformation that is the result of Washington's misuse of power and abuse of the moral foundations upon which it built its civilization."

From The Daily News, Zimbabwe.

"If the retaliation causes the same massive loss of civilian life that were witnessed on Tuesday, then the world will not have learned anything from the unbridled use of power."

From The Sunday Mail, Harare, Zimbabwe.

"The attacks show that global security does not lie with high tech armaments but with justice and fair play…Talk to them and have a hard look at their grievances. Bombing them to smithereens will not guarantee security because ideas and beliefs can withstand even nuclear blasts, and who knows—the terrorists may soon be attacking with tactical nuclear weapons."

From Elisa Ben-Rafael, Jerusalem, Israel.

"Yes, America, stand tall. Have the courage to be like the people on Flight 93. Do not repeat on a grander scale the mistake that Israelis and Palestinians have made for so many years. Do not act out of hatred of the enemy, but instead out of love for your country."

From Liberation, Paris, France.

"The United States of George W. Bush was the very embodiment of the temptation of isolationism…The United States will have to be involved in the world, and the strong-arm approach of cruise missiles will not suffice. The best defense against terrorism is not war, it is justice."

From the Sunday Star-Times, Auckland, New Zealand.

"Leaders of the free world must examine the historic context of this obscenity. The United States is not blameless in the growth of these shocking terrorist cells, particularly in Afghanistan where they flourished with U.S. money along with the Russian invasion in the late 1970's."

From Mail & Guardian, Johannesburg, South Africa.

"The root problem is that the United States is hated throughout the Arab world and in many other developing countries for the arrogance of its power. As shown by its rejection of the International Criminal Court, refusal to endorse the Kyoto Protocol, and withdrawal from United Nations racism conference. It seeks to impose norms on weaker countries while seeing itself as above international regulation. Both isolationist and controlling, it is ignorant of the world it rules and oblivious to the suffering caused by many of its actions. An example is the 11-year blockade of Iraq, which has left dictator Saddam Hussein unscathed but caused untold misery to ordinary Iraqis, including the deaths of an estimated 500,000 children. Engagement, not military action, will ultimately deliver sustainable peace."

From NIN, Belgrade, Yugoslavia.

"Lacking an interest in the outside world, Americans seem unaware that elsewhere, in another part of the world, American weapons destroy homes and bridges and kill children and other innocent people on behalf of Western values. Americans are sometimes hated not because they support Western values, but for completely prosaic reasons. One such reason is that they direct foreign policy and commit violence against foreign countries and peoples in a very tangible way and for their own interest, not always in the name of higher values. America has reaped a whirlwind, however cruel that sounds."

From Al-Ra'i, Amman, Jordan.

'We need to distinguish between the methods of the American political leadership and their arrogance in their unparalleled domination of the world, and American citizens who have committed no offense and who fell victims to 'Black Tuesday.'"

From Lidove Noviny, Prague. Czech Republic.

"It now appears to be an illusion that it could be possible to isolate America behind a secure wall. The United States is forced to become actively engaged abroad. A real solution to security threats must be directed at their political causes."

From El Pais, Madrid, Spain.

"These signs of international solidarity ought to lead the United States to return to multilateralism and to stop acting, as it has done on too many occasions, as a lone ranger."

From The Canberra Times, Canberra, Australia.

"The U.S. leadership has been waffling for months over the merits of missile defense when it should have been looking at the risks of blowback from its Middle East policy. If the United States pressured Israel to provide some justice to the Palestinians, even Islamic fanatics like Osama bin Laden would come under pressure from other Muslims to modify their actions.

"One thing that will hold America back from finding a just and diplomatic solution to the problem is that the American people are to a large extent kept in the dark about the impact of their foreign policy. The U.S. media and the Bush administration have a responsibility to educate their public about what might be driving Islamic terrorism. That political naivite is characteristic of America, where foreign policy is often dressed up in a fancy ethical guise.

"Americans will support violent retribution, but will they look to the deeper causes?"

From O Estado de Sao Paulo, Sao Paulo, Brazil.

"George W. Bush took office piously believing that the United States is not only the center of the world but the universe's reason for being. In contradistinction to his predecessor, Bill Clinton, Bush has thus far not demonstrated any tact in the art of managing U.S. dominance and its coexistence with the complexities of diverse national realities. The Sept.11 attack exposed the real meaning of the concept of international reciprocity."

From Semana, Bogota, Colombia.

"It was only natural that after a half century of the American government devastating cities around the world—Tokyo, Dresden, Hiroshima, Korean villages, Hanoi, Beirut, Panama City, Tripoli, Kabul, Baghdad, Belgrade—it would be New York and Washington's turn to experience horror. They have spent years sowing rancor through the world; they should not be surprised now by what they are reaping."

From The Philippine Star, Manila, the Philippines.

"The United States must learn to return to prayer and reflection—as a means of linking hands with humankind. The United States must also learn how to share its resources and wealth of talent with other nations and people from all over the globe."

From Vecernji List, Zagreb, Croatia.

"The world of capitalism bows to two gods—money and technology. Everything that cannot adapt, or does not want to adapt, to financial or technological standards faces scorn, poverty, and grief. Terrorists kill people because of cracks in the moral facade. Such moral faults are security gaps as well. Christian civilization can defend itself only by Christian means. Without it, Christian civilization is not what its name implies."

From Le Monde, Paris, France.

"The attacks make one thing clear: Isolationism is never an option for America."

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: Amos
Date: 01 Nov 01 - 11:39 PM

That the world criticizes us in many voices is right and a freedom to be defended.

But please scrtutinize the list of remarks above for unspecified generalizations, making fine phrases with minimal substance. The "world of capitalism" is not an entity capable of bowing to anything. The statement about "everything that cannot adapt...." is sheer cloud-talk. If the once-world famous reaosning powers of the French have degenerated to this sort of posturing, we have lost an ally without even noticing it! "Security lies with justice and fair play" is a fine high-flown principle but opens no door to the immediate situation.

The effort to reduce the September attack to criminal terms is, in my opinion, misguided. If any recognized government had sent its agents to our chief city with explosive devices of that magnitude, and wiped out 4 to 5 thousand lives in an hour, that government would have been declared hostile under war conditions instantly. Instead an unacknowledged government did it -- carefully over many months of preparation, since they had to borrow the weapons from the victims. To seek to bring such an act to justice while the perpetrators were being sheltered by a government that had no justice, and perhaps several government, would have been naive beyond believe.

It is perfectly true that the Afghan people were not committing an act of war, just as the majority of Japanese knew nothing about Pearl, and the Germans would never have decided to launch blitzkreigs across Austria's lines by popular consent. We are obliged to keep as many of them as possible out of harm's way. And we are obliged to complete the military struggle as fast as we can. But someone launching attacks of this magnitude are not "bad boys", they are declaring war. If that is not obvious, I can't say it any plainer. Lethal menace launched. If anyone expected the military response of the US and the semi-coalition to win popular acclaim, through some bizarre inversion ofhuman nature, they are naive as well. No-one likes wars, not even those fighting them. They are terrifying, harmful, overwhelming experiences.

All the above voices seem to agree that the right management of diplomacy, public relationships, justice and kindness could and would prevent war, and it would be nice to believe that, and it may be true. It is also what I have been yammering about for the last two months, if you care to check. But you can't advertise or administer justice procedures to a rabid animal. anymore than you can teach a pig to sing.

A

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 02 Nov 01 - 03:21 AM

well spoken amos

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: DougR
Date: 02 Nov 01 - 03:29 AM

I fail to see the corallary, Kendall!

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: DougR
Date: 02 Nov 01 - 03:33 AM

Guest: who cares what the "World Press Review" thinks or prints? It's only an opinion.

DougR