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BS: De-Christianizing Christmas
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Subject: De-Christianizing Christmas From: Mrrzy Date: 10 Jan 02 - 12:44 PM This came up at our family $mas, which is secular but still called Christmas, and some of the tree decorations are angels. A movement has started (I did not start it, oddly enough) to eliminate all religious references from our midwinter celebration. We'd probably call it Midwinter, we'd have a tree but no angels, we'd do presents the way we do on the 25th of December because that is when everybody is off work or out of school, and we'd limit the music to... what? I didn't get a lot out of that Secular Songs thread... I gather that Santa is OK, but we'd eliminate the Hannukkah songs too, I guess. Any of you non-Christians-who-celebrate-Christmas have any ideas? Some clarification upon rereading: the point of our family midwinter celebration is love-demonstrated-by-giving. So you have to have the presents. And the point of any midwinter celebration by humans includes the very human ken that winter, albeit cold and dark, ends, and the warm days and green leaves return, which is why there is an evergreen, and the decorations are lovely. Any other questions, please ask. This is a real question to the Mudcat, not something intended to generate What is wrong with $mas diatribes... or such is my hope. |
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: MMario Date: 10 Jan 02 - 12:51 PM well Mrrzy - this gets tough - because to remove all religious references you would have to remove the presents, arrange that the days NOT get longer, the darkness NOT end, etc,etc.etc. The tree is a religious symbol, as are evergreens, holly, many of the traditional foods. The celebration of something on or near the winter solstice is deeply and inherently religious in nature. |
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: Jeri Date: 10 Jan 02 - 01:05 PM Mrrzy, it's just human nature to take bits from other cultures and assimilate them into our own. I'd guess both Christians and those of other or no religions might be glad if you called the celebration something besides Christmas. Depending on how paricipants feel about religion in general, you could do no religious songs, or songs from as many religions as possible. It may not be a bad idea to remember different folks in different communities celebrate the same time of year in different ways. Personally, while my beliefs have changed over the years, the feeling I get at Christmas time is part of my tradition and who I am. It's about coming together and feeling comfortable with people. Maybe your decisions about what you do would best be based on what will be most likely to make that happen. There ought to be plenty of songs about love, and giving; family and friends being together, or songs about being warm by the fire when cold winds blow, about having enough to eat. |
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: wysiwyg Date: 10 Jan 02 - 01:12 PM I am responding in friendship. What I have to say may invite other interpretations, but I am writing in friendship. I would just ask, as a friend, that you remain aware that the name of the holiday, itself, honors and incorporates the name of Christ. If you are going to do something as an alternative, then why not do it as a pro-SOMETHING, not an anti-SOMETHING. The whole paradigm of thinking about a celebration should be to celebrate one thing, not denigrate something else... and the thread title gives away the paradigm-- it just is indicative of a thought process stuck in the one paradigm, while tryig somehow to create a new one. In other words-- you aren't thinking "outside the box" yet. So because I am discussing, not attacking or complainng of blaming, but answering your request to discuss-- let me suggest another approach. RECLAIMING CELEBRATING DISCOVERING IMMERSING ... as the first word of this idea you are pursuing, followed by the positive value you are trying to get at. I won't presume to speak it for you-- you know it better than I, this thing you want to proclaim. If you change the way you talk about this with yourself, internally, you will find different ideas coming to the surface, and different responses coming to join your effort. If you are really celebrating something intrinsically good and truthful and satisfying to the human spirit-- calling that whatever you will-- people will rally to it. Me, too. ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: Ron Olesko Date: 10 Jan 02 - 01:12 PM Sort of like de-caf coffee, which to me defeats the purpose. It sounds like you are trying to create a new holiday from an already established holiday. That sounds like the territory of TV executives and fast food restaurants. Since most of the religious symbols and rituals were adapted from pagan rituals and solstice celebrations you could make a point that most of these items are secular. I guess the biggest question would be, why bother? You haven't given a reason or a purpose for doing this other than not being comfortable with celebrating Christmas, Hannukah, Kwanza, or Solstice as your mid-winter holiday. All of these holidays were developed for specific reaszons - creating a new holiday just because you aren't comfortable with one of the existing ones really would be a hard sell. I'm not questioning your feeling uncomfortable with the religous holidays, that is fine. I just question creating a holiday for the sake of having a holiday. The reason doesn't have to be religous, but you need a good reason.
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: Jeri Date: 10 Jan 02 - 01:26 PM Ron, did you read Mrrzy's second paragraph? |
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: GUEST,Mark Clark (via public proxy) Date: 10 Jan 02 - 02:02 PM Mrzzy, You might find some ideas in this article. The part of Christmas you would like to keep—the parts most people observe—are far older than Christianity. The Church merely adopted the older customs in order to incorporate the tradition. - Mark |
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: MMario Date: 10 Jan 02 - 02:08 PM ah- but the stated intention is to eliminate all religious references from our midwinter celebration |
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: Joe Offer Date: 10 Jan 02 - 02:14 PM It's a fascinating question, Mrr. I'm a church-going Christian, but I can certainly see how it would be offensive to non-Christians to have all this Christ-stuff from early October until the after-Christmas sales end in February. Still, if you attempt to cleanse all vestiges of Christianity from winter celebrations, can you have a tradition that is authentic? It seems like people try to do that here in California - you can say whatever you like about Hanukkah, Solstice, Kwanzaa, and Ramadan, but you are Politically Incorrect if you make mention of Christmas. I think the same thing happens with Jews who try to celebrate a secular Passover with a Haggadah that mekes no mention of God. I can see the reason why they want to do such a thing and I don't question their sincerity, but can they have an authentic Passover tradition without mention of God? Can't they celebrate Passover in traditional ways and mention God in the story of Exodus, without actually believing in God? I think the answer to to acknowledge and embrace all the winter traditions that are part of our culture, and then build upon those traditions in a way that suits our own way of thinking. Take a look at how tradition has developed in history, and I think you'll see that it's the only way that authentic tradition can develop. As Christianity spread through Europe, the church did many things to attempt to do away with earlier pagan practices and traditions. Did it work? Nope - look at all the Christmas customs that trace their roots to pagan religions. Was it wrong for Christians to assimilate earlier tradition and incorporate it into their own custom? I don't think so. It seems to me that assimilation is a natural part of the development of tradition and culture. In this modern age of ours, we try to shape thinking by forcing changes upon our language and customs. We come up with a new name for African-Americans and handicapped people every ten years. We call personnel "human resources," customers "guests," and employees "associates." We have to watch every word we say so that we don't utter something that somebody might consider offensive. We can't eat peanuts or wear perfume or serve bread because someboy might be allergic. I think it's healthiest for us if we can accept the fact that life is messy. No matter how hard we try, it's impossible for us to cleans the past and the present of things we don't like. All we can do is build upon what we have. So, if you want to build a winter tradition, take a lesson from how Christianity built upon previous custom. Acknowledge and accept and build upon all that is rich and colorful from Christian Christmas tradition - but don't think you have to believe in it. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: NicoleC Date: 10 Jan 02 - 02:21 PM While Christmas may not be part of my religion, it is a part of my culture, which is why I celebrate it. And there's something very uplifting and almost necessary about pretending for a couple of days that it's not dark and dreary outside. Decorating with evergreens and mistletoe and lots of light at the darkest part of the year predates the Catholic church by many centuries (what else are you going to decorate with... bare twigs?), so there's a lot you can do that still Christmas-y without being religious. If you limit yourself to things which haven't been integrated into a modern religious setting, you'll have nothing left :) You might try an old-fashioned celebration. All gifts and decorations are handmade, the food is made from scratch, and so forth. Everyone gets involved in sharing and being together without so much of the commercial or religious trappings. And if any of your family does want to also celebrate the religious aspect, it won't shut them out of the fun. In fact, I think it would be more reverent. For music, why not pick out some favorite classical and folks tunes? I'm sure many Christmas and midwinter celebrations of old involved a lot of homemade song and dance, and didn't need to be a different kind of music just for the season. You could teach each other dances or just make a big pot of Wassail or spiced cider and sit and catch up on the talking and being together. Next year, I've already convinced most of the family that we aren't going to do presents. None of us needs any new junk. What we are going to do is sponsor a needy family, or give to local charities that do good work. It never hurts to spread the joy around :) |
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: MMario Date: 10 Jan 02 - 02:29 PM which brings us back to my question - is it ALL religious references that you wish to remove - or jus the Christian ones? |
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: SharonA Date: 10 Jan 02 - 02:32 PM Mrrzy: The only problem with calling the celebration "Midwinter" is that the last days of December occur at the beginning of the winter season, when the days actually begin to lengthen after the solstice and the weather isn't yet at its coldest. Since, as you say, "the point of [your] family midwinter celebration is love-demonstrated-by-giving", I'd suggest calling it "Giving Day." I see no problem with having a tree, holly, traditional foods, even figures of people with wings (hey, fairies have wings, too!) without attaching any symbolism to them whatsoever. Sometimes, a tree is just a tree and a present is just a present. (...and a cat... is a person! Sorry.) Whatever trappings and traditions bring you comfort, leave 'em in! I have to admit, though, that I'm disturbed by the concept of "limiting" the singing. Certainly, if people feel uncomfortable singing a song because of its lyrics, they should not. But the "message" of a song is a more subjective concept; some of the narrative Christmas carols could be considered ballads or otherwise folklore-oriented ("The First Noel", for instance), whereas those that are songs of praise (such as "Joy to the World") would not. And any song that expresses a wish for peace and goodwill can't be all bad, in my book (speaking as an agnostic). I would say, sing whatever feels comfortable to you since, in the context of your family celebration, no one is going to "take it the wrong way" (take it to mean that you believe something that, in fact, you do not). And if the song everyone's comfy with is "Sweet Betsy from Pike", who cares? The important thing is that you're gathering together and singing! |
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: Ron Olesko Date: 10 Jan 02 - 03:16 PM Jeri, Yes I did read the second paragraph which is why I worded my comments the way I did. I have no objection to what he is trying to accomplish, but I am still hazy on what he is trying to celebrate. Love demonstrated by giving is a great idea, but is that the reason for a holiday? True holidays are celebrations of events or milestones. An holiday to give gifts is a birthday or anniversary or Valentines Day. Giving gifts at Christmas or Hannukah is tied into the religious beliefs - symbols of the ceremony. So my question is still unanswered. Ron |
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: SharonA Date: 10 Jan 02 - 03:26 PM But, Ron, to some people, gathering the family together is an event! A day when no one in the group would have to miss a gathering, due to work or school, is an event! A gift exchange – for any reason or no reason – is an event! What's not to celebrate? |
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: Jeri Date: 10 Jan 02 - 03:47 PM Ron, giving gifts is not tied to religion for me, and I suspect Mrrzy as well. I grew up with the traditions of Christmas. Those traditions have, for me, become the reasons for the celebration, and not the results. It's a day to rejoice being with loved ones during the coldest, darkest time of year. It was clear to me (I think) what Mrrzy was actually asking. If I cared to look for motives, I probably could have imagined enough so I wouldn't question them. I doubt I'd do so anyway, since it usually results in an argument having nothing to do with the questions asked by the starter of the thread. If an explanation of motives helps in answering the question, no problem. In any case, I think we just have different ways of looking at "holiday" celebrations. |
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: Ron Olesko Date: 10 Jan 02 - 03:56 PM Sharon, You are right, unfortunately. To me it seems a shame that we need to make up an excuse for giving gifts or expressing love. At least with the other holidays that were mentioned, the giving of gifts is a by-product and not necessarily the purpose of the holiday. It seems a shame that days like Martin Luther King Day and Presidents Day are now perceived as a day to buy stereos and refrigerators on sale. People tend to forget the reason we celebrate. Don't get me wrong, days like Mother's Day, Father's Day, Grandparents Day, and Second Cousin Weekend do serve to remind us of those close to us. You are right, sometimes it does take a holiday to get people together. We've all become so busy in our lives that we can't get together for the sake of getting together unless it is tied into a holiday. It is a shame. The only reason I questioned the original note was that it seems "almost" to be a case of wanting the best of all worlds. Mrzzy has issues with celebrating a religous holiday, which I respect 100%. If the feeling is that strong it just seems unusual for wanting to take the symbols and themes of the holiday and making it serve another purpose. Truthly, that is EXACTLY what the Church did when they incorporated pagan celebrations and createed the Christmas holiday. This is an interesting thread - lots of food for thought. Ron |
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: 53 Date: 10 Jan 02 - 04:07 PM why would you want to remove the reason for christmas? that sounds like a pretty stupid idea, he is the reason for the season. BOB |
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: Jerry Rasmussen Date: 10 Jan 02 - 05:02 PM I agree with Susan. Better to choose a new name. Christmas literally means celebrating Christ. If you want to take Christ out of the Holiday, take him out of the name. Jerry |
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: SharonA Date: 10 Jan 02 - 05:07 PM Ron: thanks for that answer. Well said! |
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 10 Jan 02 - 05:24 PM I don't often disagree with Joe Offer, and when he's taken the time to write this week when he's got bigger matters on his mind seesm ungracious, but it's not a serius disagreement.
"I can certainly see how it would be offensive to non-Christians to have all this Christ-stuff from early October until the after-Christmas sales end in February."
I can't. I've don't feel the least bit uncomfortable about Muslims celebrating Ramadan and Id-al-fitar, or Jews celebrasting Passover and Hanukah , or Hindus with Divali and Holiand so forth. The more celebrations the better, and the more we all feel invited to join in them the better still.
I'm all for a mid-winter hiliday.But it shouldn't be at Christmas, which, as has been pointed out, comes before winter has really set in. Have it a few weeks later in real mid-winter, when we need cheering up. Round about Candlemas, which is February 2nd.
And best of luck for Offer Day on Saturday. Chris-Offer day. Now that's another real mid-winter celebration. |
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: MMario Date: 10 Jan 02 - 05:27 PM it's offensive to many Christians the way the holiday has been promoted and extended and commercialized.
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: Ron Olesko Date: 10 Jan 02 - 05:34 PM By the way... Jingle Bells is a good song. No mention of Christmas, gifts, menorahs or anything. Perfect song for the winter but it seems to be only associated with Christmas. (I thought maybe one reply for the original request would be nice, especially since I am guilty of taking the thread off topic too!!) |
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: Liz the Squeak Date: 10 Jan 02 - 05:36 PM Call it Yule then, if you can't cope with Christmas, Xmas is just the abbreviated form, X being the cross. And Valentines is not a holiday. It's a holy day, another Christian saint, who was killed because he refused to denounce Christ. That's what holiday means..... holy day. So what you going to do with them? LTS |
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: Lepus Rex Date: 10 Jan 02 - 05:41 PM Interesting thread... My view: I'm agnostic (Well, athiest, if we're talking about X-ianity:) ), but I don't have a problem with celebrating x-mas. I swap gifts with family and friends, sometimes even respectfully pretending to say grace to their 'God' at dinner. And I call it 'Christmas,' too, even though the closest thing to a religious symbol in my home is a stuffed Cthulhu doll. I know all the religious bits of the holiday are silly and obsolete, and playing along isn't going to insult any baby-eating monkey gods that I worship, since I don't. So what's the problem? None, for me. I don't feel threatened by the make-believe godlings of the Middle East or their followers. I know that I'm right, and that anyone who disagrees with me is wrong. So... what the Hell was my point? Ah, yes: So, Mrry, I don't know what your (or your family's) religious orientation is, but if it's the case that you don't believe in any gods, why bother worrying about what to call X-mas? Isn't it just a word, one used to describe a holiday with rituals that are pretty much identical to the one your family wants to 'create?' And wouldn't it just be a pain in the ass to explain to 'outsiders,' something that would distance you from your peers (sometimes a good thing, heh) and give them the impression your family is unbelievably PC? Just curious. Also, how would Santa Claus be OK for your celebration, Mrrzy? Yes, he's a jolly, secular-feeling, 'elf,' but he is also St.Nicholas, after all. :) ---Lepus Rex (And, what, no one's mentioned Festivus?) |
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: WFDU - Ron Olesko Date: 10 Jan 02 - 06:43 PM We consider 4th of July, Memorial Day and Labor day to be among our "holidays". Even though the definition of the word is derived from "holy day", it has obviously changed. Certainly the Holiday Inn isn't really holy! I guess they do have that bible in the drawer though. |
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: CapriUni Date: 10 Jan 02 - 06:55 PM Well, as to why we call the Christmas celebration a "midwinter" festival... that's really a cultural thing. According to our current culture, the start of winter is defined as the winter solstice -- the day on which the sun's path appears cross furthest to the north of the celestial equator. This is also the day with the shortest amount of sunlight per 24-hour period, give or take a minute or two. But in other cultures (such as the ancient Celts, for example) the start of "Winter" was on or around what we now think of a November 1st -- the ritual day on which the herds of cattle were brought down from their summer pastures in the mountains, and the start of "Summer" was when the cattle were brought back to the mountains on or around May 1st. Defined in this way, the end of December is much closer to being "midwinter". As for why Mrzzy wants to celebrate (Whateverday) at this time, he (you are a 'he', right, Mrzzy?) did state that this was the one time the whole family could actually get to together -- logistics can't be dismissed too easily :-). Also, for the atheistic, agnostic folks out there (who might also be science-minded, or they might not be), the Winter Solstice is a measurable moment -- something that happens for simultaneously for everyone living in the northern hemisphere. So, if you're going to pick a particular around which to center a celebration, it's an easy one to decide on, rather than trying to decide which week in February is the gloomiest... |
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 10 Jan 02 - 08:11 PM What do people in the southern hemisphere do to cheer themslves up in the middle of their winter? |
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: Lepus Rex Date: 10 Jan 02 - 08:19 PM Gather in the bathroom and watch their toilets flush in the wrong direction. ---Lepus Rex |
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: Jerry Rasmussen Date: 10 Jan 02 - 08:20 PM If you'd like to take Christ out of Christmas, be patient. Try to find an image of Christ on Christmas wrapping paper, or on most Christmas cards... or on Holiday specials. You've got rednosed reindeer, and dancing snowmen, but no Christ. I think somebody beat you to it. And that's right... I'm not offended when someone celebrates Ramadan, any more than I am offended when someone doesn't believe in God. Different strokes. Jerry |
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: GUEST,Clint Keller Date: 10 Jan 02 - 08:40 PM Seems like the argument is about words. The words don't make the celebration, they just help you talk about it. Year-old & younger kids catch on just fine to Christmas/Yule/Solstice/whatever and they don't call it anything. The dark of the year is a good time to celebrate. Do what you want, sing what you want. And call it what you want-- "Yule" is pretty good, but if you call it "Christmas" so people will know when you mean it's ok; you won't have signed a contract for the Mass of Christ. A star looks good on the tree, but it doesn't commit you to anything. Why worry about whether it's REALLY about Christ or Saturn or whoever? The act comes first, then the interpretation. First the art, then the critic. Clint Keller |
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: CapriUni Date: 10 Jan 02 - 09:17 PM "First the art, then the critic." I like that!! You don't mind if I use it, do you? |
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: Joe Offer Date: 10 Jan 02 - 09:34 PM Following up on what McGrath said, maybe it would be good for non-Christians realize that Christians take offense at many of the same aspects of Christmas that offend non-Christians. I think most everybody would like to do away with the cheap commercialization of winter celebrations, and have a nice, quiet, memorable time filled with music and love. In some ways, I suppose it's nice to "keep the Christ in Christmas" - but maybe it's better if we all would be open to diversity in our winter celebrations, so we can all celebrate together. After all, I don't think I've ever heard people remind me to "Keep the Thor in Thursday." Maybe Christians shouldn't be so concerned about keeping December 25 to themselves - and maybe non-Christians shouldn't worry about using the word "Christmas" to refer to December 25. -Joe Offer- [I keep typing "Christina" when I mean to type "Christian" - could it be that I have my future bride on my mind?? We're having a Catholic wedding Mass Saturday, and many of those attending are non-Christian or non-Catholic. I hope it will still be a good celebration for all.] |
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: CapriUni Date: 11 Jan 02 - 12:00 AM "I don't think I've ever heard people remind me to 'Keep the Thor in Thursday.' " LOL! I love it! Can someone put that on a bumpersticker for me? ;-) Isn't that an exchange from Winnie the Pooh? (or is that The House at Pooh Corner?) which goes something like: Piglet: Where are you going, Pooh? Pooh: I'm going to wish people "A very Happy Tuesday". Want to come? That's not it, exactly (I did a quick scan of the two books, and couldn't find it... but I know it's there). But anyway, that's how I feel about Christmas celebrations. I'm not Christian, myself, but that's no reason not to partake of all the merriness. Why not wish each other Very Happy Tuesdays, and Wonderful Wednessdays, Thankful Thursdays, and Merry Christmasses, and so on? This poor old world needs all the merriness it can get.. (and, Joe? Have a Splendiferous Saturday, Saturday, okay? ;-)) |
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: GUEST,misophist Date: 11 Jan 02 - 12:31 AM It's been over thirty years since I've celebrated Xmas myself. That said, I want to endorse everthing Mr Offer said and to suggest you do whatever you damn well please. Keep the tree if you want to. It represents the world ash, Yggdrasil, from which All Father Odin hanged himself for nine days and nights. The holly is a reminder of Loki's perfidity and the slaying of Baldur the Beautiful. If that's good enough for Christians, it can be good enough for you,too, if you want it to be. |
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: marty D Date: 11 Jan 02 - 12:48 AM Something just came to mind. I know that a number of people want to remove the name of "Columbus Day" (because he was an 'opressor, murderer, Imperialist, yada yada) but I read somewhere that "Exploration Day" may well BE on the horizon to replace it. Anyone heard anything about that? I'm not specifically a 'Columbus' fan (I doubt if ANY of the explorers were egalitarian) just curious. I think a great number of people simply take what they want from any holiday, and let others do the same. We celebrate Christ's Birthday knowing full well he wasn't ACTUALLY born on that day, the same way we honor the 'unknown soldier'. The pagentry and reverence make us feel better, and surely that can't be bad these days. marty |
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: Gary T Date: 11 Jan 02 - 01:03 AM McGrath--re: ...Candlemas, which is February 2nd. Candlemas? CANDLEMAS? Who gives a rat's patoot about Candlemas--February 2nd is Groundhog Day (here in the states, anyway), for crying out loud. Hmmmph--Candlemas indeed. :-) Liz--re: Xmas is just the abbreviated form, X being the cross. I think you'll find that the "X" is the Greek letter chi, the first letter of the word "christ" written in Greek. That it appears to be a cross is merely coincidental. |
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: Rolfyboy6 Date: 11 Jan 02 - 01:12 AM Why call it "Midwinter" when it's already Yule? Buddhists love the Yule. Hey, when all is said and done--"What everybody said", I kinda agree with everything said on this thread. Now, can we get the stores to stop playing that crappy xmas music? |
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: Jimmy C Date: 11 Jan 02 - 01:40 AM Christmas is a christian feast. If you want to have a non-christian day do so, but pick a different date, there are lots to go around. I do not like the word Xmas as it is (I believe) a way of crossing Christ out of Christmas. I will not buy any cards that have the word Xmas on them, I will not shop in any store that has Xmas sales etc. It is a Christian holiday, period. The tree etc I can do without, The focal point of the holiday is Christ. Presents, tinsel, turkey etc all evolved innocently enough throughout the years, now it is out of hand, it's commercialized to the stage of overkill. I am not Jewish, I do not celebrate Jewish feasts but I have enough respect for the Jewish faith and the Jewish people to refer to their feast days by their proper names, the same goes for all other religions. Christmas is Christmas, not Xmas, not yuletide, not The Festive Season etc, it is Christmas. |
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: CapriUni Date: 11 Jan 02 - 02:09 AM Jimmy C: I agree with you. All religios beliefs should be respected. And I do pick a different date: the solstice itself (which, in my religion is called "Yule" -- comes from the Old English for 'ember', referring to the sacred fires that were lit at this time.) But also, in my faith, I honor the event of the Solstice by meditating on the light returning to the world (and how I can spread light of my own in the upcoming year) for 12 days, hence "yuletide" or "Season of Yule" ... Christ's Mass does fall within that period. |
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: Liz the Squeak Date: 11 Jan 02 - 02:11 AM The holly is a reminder of Loki's perfidity = no that good a reminder, because it's mistletoe that Loki used..... Liz--re: Xmas is just the abbreviated form, X being the cross. I think you'll find that the "X" is the Greek letter chi, the first letter of the word "christ" written in Greek. That it appears to be a cross is merely coincidental. Bloody spellchecker!! I'd written Chi, and it changed it for me! LTS |
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: GUEST,Clint Keller Date: 11 Jan 02 - 03:29 AM CapriUni: Re: "First the art, then the critic." I like that!! You don't mind if I use it, do you? On the contrary. Spread the word. clint keller |
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: Joe Offer Date: 11 Jan 02 - 03:44 AM By the way, I hate to tell you all this, but Spring has come to my area. A few flowers are popping up, the streams are gushing with water, and the grass is a fresh green. While the rest of you are in the bleak midwinter (or waning summer), it's a beautiful SPRING in Northern California - and I'm getting married tomorrow!!! -Joe Offer, jubilant- |
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: Deckman Date: 11 Jan 02 - 04:27 AM Joe ... You don't suppose that all those wonderful things are happening BECAUSE you are getting married tomorrow, do you? Very Best Wishes to you and Mrs. Joe. Bob Nelson |
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: JulieF Date: 11 Jan 02 - 06:50 AM When I was young I had a great deal of trouble relating my non belief with general life - Should I sing hymns at school assembly, what about the girl guide promise and so forth - Ok I was a fairly intense teenager and I have had my comeupance and now spend my time telling my daughter to lighten up and its not the end of the world. Strangely, I don't remember having any problems with Christmas. Teenagers can be fairly selective in their intensity. As I got older I managed to establish what I was and what way I wanted to live my life. I found I could sing hymns at weddings, funerals or Christenings as it was to make the event for my friends. Although I would never become a God Parent. I think as far as Christmas goes look at the bits that are important to you and your family. If it is important for the family (perhaps due to small children) then celebrate on the day, then celebrate on the day. If not do something else and choose your own celebration. If your family enjoys singing carols, sing carols for the sake of your family's enjoyment. Don't worry about the name of the day, its not the important part. Personally, I enjoyed choosing the right present for the right person, a big family gathering on Christmas day and the fact the my niece can remember who I am from one day to the next now, my brother's playing competitive Twister and the look on my daughter's face when she unrapped the purple Doc Martins. All the best Julie |
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: Dave the Gnome Date: 11 Jan 02 - 08:20 AM Good discussion indeed! Filled an otherwise dull lunch break with interest:-) My only contribution would be to ask the question why would anyone want to get rid of anything from any festival? Surely the point of the festival, tradition or whatever is to celebrate something. From my point of view, the more the merrier! I will celebrate Christmas, Hannuhkah, End of Ramadan, Chinese Ney Year, the Cats birthday - ANYTHING! I enjoy the lot. We are all big enough to live with each others traditions, religions, colours and tastes. None of us know that much that we cannot get something out of someone elses viewpoint. We can all join in the joy of our fellows, whether we agree with what gives them that joy or not. (OK perhaps we wouldn't want to celebrate along with Charles Mansun but lets not get picky...;-)) I'm sure I would enjoy the 4th of July if I was over there at the time. I would certainly NOT want to take all references to America out of it just because I am not American! Cheers and a happy Gnome-thwannp to you all. BTW - I found Dave Butler's Multicultural Holiday Music Page while I was having a browse - looks quite good. |
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 11 Jan 02 - 08:34 AM Groundhog Day was a good film, but as a holiday it's pretty local affair. Is it even widely recognised in the United States? (Apart from the film.)
Most places in the world don't have groundhogs. (Sort of overgrown squirrels aren't they? Since people sometimes call squirrels tree rats does that mean a ground squirrel is a kind of rat?)
On contrast, there are candles everywhere.
I'm still waiting to hear when and how southern folk celebrate in the middle of their winter? When is Penguin Day? |
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: Dani Date: 11 Jan 02 - 08:44 AM As always, I am humbled by the wisdom and humanity and kindness you all bring to a discussion like this. I don't usually get involved with personal stuff here at the Mudcat, but I want to tell you a story... I was raised Catholic, can still sing in Latin with the best of them. Well, maybe not with Joe ;). But I always, even very young, had this thing about the Nicene Creed. I just didn't get it, and felt real hypocritical and left out. When the time came for confirmation, I went along with the crowd, 'cause what else can you do? But that was it for me. I mentally left the church, and as soon as I was old enough, stopped going to Mass. But here's the thing: I love Christmas as much as the next guy, and Jesus, too! It's just that whole divinity and Virgin Birth thing that got me. So, does the baby get thrown out with the bathwater? Or the Great Teacher with the hypocrisy? So I'll evangelize. I found the Unitarian Universalist Church, discovered that I could be a "christian with a small 'c'" as a friend calls it, and began to sort out all that holiday stuff. Getting to know some really fundamentalist Pagans and Christians helped some, too! Neither of which I'd ever met until moving to NC, strangely enough. So over the course of years, I've learned to separate the holidays, and to allow them to converge. I love the beautiful story of the Nativity, and am happy to share it with my daughters in the same way we share LOTS of stories that were written to teach important things. And I love the celebration of Yule, the evergreens in the house, the candles and fireglow. We honor the mistletoe AND the shepherds. Both have things to teach us. I think Pagan and Christian carols and hymns dovetail nicely. There's just that verse or two that I choke on about redemption from Satan's power, but hey, not all our patriotic songs go down easily, either. Now, let's have them both be holy-days. Let's have plenty of holy-days, and keep them holy. I, too, hate that schools have whitewashed all the life out of EVERYONE'S holidays in the name of political correctness. I encourage ours to go ahead and let the kids celebrate Christmas.... and give me a chance to tell a story or share a song that celebrates the solstice, the Yule, etc. Our country never was a melting pot. It's a messy, lumpy, delicious stew. Only a curmudgeon would pass up a bowl. The rest of us know how to pick out the stuff we don't like, put it aside for someone else, and go on celebrating around the table! ADESTE FIDELIS, LAETE TRIUMPHANTE!! With love to you all, and best wishes for your beautiful date with Christina tomorrow, Joe! Dani |
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: catspaw49 Date: 11 Jan 02 - 08:58 AM Why is it that every friggin' holiday of any sort, somebody has some objection or is offended even though they may want to participate.....sorta'. Don't answer, I know all the reasons. Let me propose this instead.
Now I realize that everyone might not recognize the 12 month calendar as a part of their culture, but international business uses it and we have to start somewhere. So.....We establish an International Holiday Registry!!! Every month has a number, 1-12, and you can send in the forms and register any day(s) in any month for anything you want to celebrate. Every Holiday has the SAME NAME followed by a number. We call them all
Let's say that the Christians get their forms in early for Whatevertafuck 12 and the traditional day is now known as Whatevertafuck 12-6. Maybe you don't want to celebrate any religious day or the solstice, but you want a holiday anyway......NO PROBLEMMO!!! Just send in the paperwork and now you can celebrate the day your Great Aunt Marge crashed her Packard and took out the loading dock at the Piggly-Wiggly which will be known as Whatevertafuck 12-261.
Just think of it.........Greeting cards can all have pleasant messages and pretty pictures with a "fill in the blank" section like "Have a Happy and Joyous Whatevertafuck 10-____." The stores can put up permanent banners with changeable numbers:
This is just the ticket and no one gets pissed and everyone is having a holiday celebration whenever they want for whatevertafuck reasons!
Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: SharonA Date: 11 Jan 02 - 11:10 AM Kevin (McGrath): Yes, I believe that Groundhog Day is widely recognized in the US, though perhaps for most it's not more than a curiosity. On the other hand, there are Groundhog Club chapters in California, Texas, Florida, North Carolina, Tennessee, Massachusetts and New Hampshire, as well as in Canada (in Calgary, Alberta). The movie did a lot to spread the word about the town of Punxsutawney, Pennsylvania and its annual tradition of pulling poor Punxsutawney Phil the groundhog out of his warm bed and holding him in the air, proclaiming his prediction concerning the end of winter. But, of course, the tradition existed long before the movie! Here's a web page that describes the relationship between Candlemas and Groundhog Day: Groundhog Day History: European Roots. Also, check out groundhog.com and groundhog.org Bear in mind that, this year, the date of the celebration will be 02/02/02 and that it falls on a Saturday, so Punxsutawney is definitely the place to be! (Good luck finding a place to park, though.) To answer your question about the animal itself, the groundhog is also called a woodchuck (as well as many four-letter words uttered by gardeners!), defined as "a grizzled, thickset marmot (Marmota monax) of the northeastern US and Canada; also any of several marmots of mountainous western North America." The marmot, in turn, is defined as "a stout-bodied, short-legged burrowig rodent with coarse fur, a short bushy tail, and very small ears." I would describe it as being far more similar, in body type, to a badger than a squirrel (but with a gentler disposition and a more squirrel-like head). The fur is brown with no discernable markings. When seen above ground, they move with a sort of lumpy waddle. And when they cross the road, they take their good ol' time about it. I've heard them nicknamed as "grinnies" by a friend from Ohio; perhaps catspaw can verify this as being a local term. They'd be more endearing if they weren't so destructive! |
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 11 Jan 02 - 11:18 AM Woodchuck! As in "How much wood can a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could and would chuck wood."
You learn stuff here you wouldn't elsewhere. |