BS: Pilar Rahola on leftist anti-Semitism

Subject: BS: Pilar Rahola on leftist anti-Semitism
From: GUEST,New York City
Date: 07 Jul 03 - 01:52 PM

The courageous Spanish leftist, Pilar Rahola, has stepped up to the fore in combatting the surging anti-Semitism on the political left.

Here's a link to an article about her.

Subject: RE: BS: Pilar Rahola on leftist anti-Semitism
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 07 Jul 03 - 02:14 PM

Don't you think it's important to distinguish between anti-Semitism and an anti-Israeli bias? The former is bigotry; the latter stems from political sources.

Subject: RE: BS: Pilar Rahola on leftist anti-Semitism
From: michaelr
Date: 07 Jul 03 - 03:16 PM

There he goes again, making the same old tired attempt that's been debunked here several times before. Yawn...

Subject: RE: BS: Pilar Rahola on leftist anti-Semitism
From: Wolfgang
Date: 07 Jul 03 - 03:35 PM

pdc,
'anti-Israeli bias'?
Bias: 'an unreasoned distortion of judgement, a prejudice'
Israeli: '(an) inhabitant(s) of Israel'

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Pilar Rahola on leftist anti-Semitism
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 07 Jul 03 - 05:04 PM

Right, Wolfgang, the "i" crept in there -- it should have read anti-Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Pilar Rahola on leftist anti-Semitism
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Jul 03 - 06:52 PM

And remember, one in five Israeli citizens are Palestinian Arabs.

It's true enough there are Jew haters who take advantage of the way the Government of Israel behaves to try to stir up antagonism against Jews. And there are people who let themselves be trapped into that way of thinking.

It is rather analogous to the way that in the past, Jew haters would use people's resentment against economic oppression by focusing on the minority of exploiters who were Jewish, diverting attention from the ones who weren't Jewish. "The socialism of fools" was one way of summing it up.

But being opposed to the oppression which has resulted from the way the Zionist project has developed is not anti-semitic in itself, and many of the most articulate and dedicated opponents of this oppression are Jews.

Moreover it's worth noting that some of the most enthuisiastic "pro-Zionists", especially among the American "Christian" fundamentalist right have many anti-semitic aspects, looking forward with relish to a future in which the Jewish people will perish, apart from a minority who become "Christians".

Here is a piece by Jewish Israeli writer Uri Avnery which I think is worth reading - Manufacturing Anti-Semites

"Sharon's propaganda agents are pouring oil on the flames. Accusing all critics of his policy of being anti-Semites, they brand large communities with this mark. Many good people, who feel no hatred at all towards the Jews, but who detest the persecution of the Palestinians, are now called anti-Semites. Thus the sting is taken out of this word, giving it something approaching respectability."

Subject: RE: BS: Pilar Rahola on leftist anti-Semitism
From: John Hindsill
Date: 07 Jul 03 - 08:23 PM

McGrath, I think you overreach in your arguments. Citing some Israelis or Jews who oppose government policy does not prove Israel wrong, any more than, say, Noam Chomsky's rants prove the evil of the United States. Open societies allow for dissent, thank God.

The "Zionist project" is not a term I am familiar with...where did you get it? It does seem suspiciously like a code term to me.

Finally, as to Christian fundamentalists having anti-Semitic aspects, I suspect that many may. But the belief that Jews who do not embrace Christ will perish or go to Hell does not make one anti-Semitic. Those fundamentalists believe that all folks who do not so believe are doomed...Hindu, athiest, Muslim or whatever.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Pilar Rahola on leftist anti-Semitism
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Jul 03 - 08:44 PM

Citing some Israelis or Jews who oppose government policy does not prove Israel wrong, any more than, say, Noam Chomsky's rants prove the evil of the United States.

I would say what it proves is that some people who oppose the government of Israel are not anti-Semites.

The "Zionist project" is not a term I am familiar with...where did you get it? It does seem suspiciously like a code term to me.

Is this question code for "McGrath of Harlow is an anti-Semite"?

Subject: RE: BS: Pilar Rahola on leftist anti-Semitism
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 07 Jul 03 - 10:20 PM

Aren't some Arabs Semites racially too?

Subject: RE: BS: Pilar Rahola on leftist anti-Semitism
From: John Hindsill
Date: 07 Jul 03 - 11:13 PM

CarolC, your response to my posting is quite interesting. First, while my statement may "prove" that some people who oppose the government of of Israel are not anti-Semites, that, of course was not the point. The logical extension to your inference is that some such people 'are' anti-Semites. Second, I do not impute anti-Semitism to McGrath, but the use of those particular words is unfortunate. It may be that he has picked up that term from some other source that is playing with the anti-Semitic term, "Zionist agenda."

Guest,Guest-yes, Arabs are Semites. The term "anti-Semite", however, refers specifically to anti-Jewish, and has for over a hundred years. We have had this discussion at Mudcat before. Any other use of the term is (putting it in the best light) disingenuous!

Subject: RE: BS: Pilar Rahola on leftist anti-Semitism
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 08 Jul 03 - 01:42 AM

John,
         The fact that something has a history of over a hundred
years doesn't make it either appropriate or true, after all, if age
were any criterion that old farrago of lies ' The Protocols of
the Elders of Zion' is probably around it's centenary now.

Subject: RE: BS: Pilar Rahola on leftist anti-Semitism
From: michaelr
Date: 08 Jul 03 - 02:08 AM

Yes, we have indeed had this discussion before, so let's not have it again, shall we? Refer to this thread instead.

And Carol, please be more cautious with your syntax; they're just looking to get you in trouble again!

Cheers,
Michael

Subject: RE: BS: Pilar Rahola on leftist anti-Semitism
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 08 Jul 03 - 03:35 AM

The phrase The Zionist Project used by McGrath is correct. It was first formulated by Theodor Herzl in his book Der Judenstaat : Versuch einer modernen Lösung der Judenfrage. - Leipzig & Wien, 1896 (The Jewish State : an attempt for a modern solution of the Jewish Question). You'll find there the outlines of a projected Jewish State in Palestine with some interesting remarks about the role of the actual inhabitants.

Wilfried

Subject: RE: BS: Pilar Rahola on leftist anti-Semitism
From: Pied Piper
Date: 08 Jul 03 - 05:27 AM

Here
A link to a translation of the book.

PP

Subject: RE: BS: Pilar Rahola on leftist anti-Semitism
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Jul 03 - 06:51 AM

Thanks, Wilfred, for pointing out that "the Zionist project" is a perfectly valid exression, with roots in Zionist writing.

It just means the goal of establishing and maintaining a homeland for Jews in Palestine - I used the expression rather than "Zionism" because that word can carry an implication that it is a much more united and coherent ideology than it ever has been.

People who share that goal can disagree very radically indeed about all kinds of things, such as the territory involved, or the rights of the other people who live there and have lived there.

Subject: RE: BS: Pilar Rahola on leftist anti-Semitism
From: GUEST,New York City
Date: 08 Jul 03 - 08:23 AM

There he goes again, making the same old tired attempt that's been debunked here several times before. Yawn...

Maybe it's been debunked to the satisfaction of michaelr, but I give more weight to the Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. than to michaelr.

You can read what Dr. King had to say on the subjrct of anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism at this link.

Subject: RE: BS: Pilar Rahola on leftist anti-Semitism
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Jul 03 - 09:06 AM

The problem is that that both "Zionism" and "anti-Zionism" cover such a wide range of views.

There's a great difference between a "Zionist" who believes in extending the state of Israel to cover the whole of Eretz Israel and expelling the non-Jews who live there, and a Zionist who accepts that both Jews and Palestinians have every bit as much right as each other to live there.

And there is a great difference between an "anti-Zionist" who believes that the Jews of Israel should be expelled from the same territory, and one who accepts that both Palestinians and Jews have every bit as much right as each other to live there.

For that reason I think that critics of Israel do well to avoid using the term, but take a bit longer and spell out what they actually. believe. And the same goes for the word Zionist.

Subject: RE: BS: Pilar Rahola on leftist anti-Semitism
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Jul 03 - 11:35 AM

CarolC, your response to my posting is quite interesting. First, while my statement may "prove" that some people who oppose the government of of Israel are not anti-Semites, that, of course was not the point.

I was not suggesting that your statement proved anything. I was suggesting that the fact that some Israelis and some Jews oppose the policies of the government of Israel does prove that not all people who do so are anti-Semites.

The logical extension to your inference is that some such people 'are' anti-Semites.

Of course some are. That's hardly a debatable issue. However, the article that was linked to in the opening post to this thread may give some people the impression that all people who oppose the government of Israel are anti-Semites, and that most certainly is not the case.

Second, I do not impute anti-Semitism to McGrath

Glad to hear it.

Subject: RE: BS: Pilar Rahola on leftist anti-Semitism
From: Wolfgang
Date: 08 Jul 03 - 12:04 PM

I found all of the links here to outside sites interesting and not boring (noone is forced here to read threads he finds boring, BTW). I nearly always love to read Avnery, for instance, even if I don't agree, for the clarity of his thoughts and argumentation. It was also interesting to read that the phrase 'Zionist project' was not used anywhere by Herzl in his famous book. And it was interesting to read, for instance, that Spain has a somewhat similar discussion to a discussion in Germany thought both countries' recent history of anti-semitism is quite dissimilar.

The radical left and the radical right in Germany have very few fields of politics where they agree closely. One of these fields is Israel/Palestine. That often comes as a surprise to some of my more radical friends when they learn that they completely agree on that field with some publication from the far right. It is often instructive to leave away the source (or even change it) and look for their reactions when they find they have agreed with someone they usually never agree with.

One of the differences, however, is that I know of noone on the left who would not oppose being called anti-semite whereas some people on the right would be proud to be called so. On the left, you don't dislike people you dislike types of politics. The accusation in the target article that for some (let us agree we never speak about 'all', only about 'some') of the Spanish left what on the surface is dislike of Israel's politics is in depth based upon dislike of the Jews is hardly palatable for those accused so.

In the target article, this comes over for me as a kind of unfair accusation, since (1) no examples are named or cited and (2) the underlying motives are targeted instead of what is actually said. It is extremely difficult to fight against the argument that deep in you some irrational hatred or whatever is the basis for your open political position. You say 'No, I'm not, for instance, anti-semitic." It could mean that you just do not want to (or cannot) admit your hidden motives. It makes you look a loser both ways. If Rahola has not more of an argumentation than in that short article I'd say it is a weak argument.

...some people who oppose the government of Israel are not anti-Semites (Carol)

I know of noone here who comes even remotely close to disagreeing with that statement. I remember an awful thread (Anti-Semitism, started by the Dreadful Guest) in which this phrase and paraphrases of it have been repeated about two dozen times without anyone disagreeing. It is always amazing to me when an undisputed statement is repeated all over and then I start myself asking why, but I don't want to argue hidden motives.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Pilar Rahola on leftist anti-Semitism
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Jul 03 - 12:32 PM

It is always amazing to me when an undisputed statement is repeated all over and then I start myself asking why, but I don't want to argue hidden motives.

And yet you seem to be implying hidden motives. You wouldn't have any "hidden motives" of your own, would you, Wolfgang? Of course you wouldn't.

I did a search on the name "Pilar Rahola", and in one of the sites that turned up, I found this language: "hysterical pro-Palestinianism". I wonder what that site's motives are.

Innuendo is an amazingly powerful thing, isn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Pilar Rahola on leftist anti-Semitism
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Jul 03 - 01:34 PM

"As the father of modern Zionism, Herzl consolidated the various strands of Zionism already in existence into a modern, organized, political movement. Convening the First Zionist Congress in Basle, Switzerland, in August 1897, Herzl brought the Zionist project to the forefront of Jewish and world attention. In his diary, Herzl wrote: "In Basle, I created the Jewish State."

From the Anti-defamation League's website. I think that fairly conclusively proves that it's not an anti-semitic expression.

Subject: RE: BS: Pilar Rahola on leftist anti-Semitism
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Jul 03 - 01:53 PM

One intriguing might-have-been is to consider what would have hapened if there had been no war in 1948, and if the partition of Palestine had been accepted by all parties, with no flight/expulsion of refugees. Israel would have developed as a state more or less equally made up of Jews and Arabs, and, for all that, it would still have been a Jewish homeland. And I think most people who wish well for both peoples must profoundly wish that this had been what happened.

And yet the argument which is raised against any right of return by Palestinians to the land which they and their families fled is that this would imply the destruction of Israel, and of the Jewish homeland.

Subject: RE: BS: Pilar Rahola on leftist anti-Semitism
From: GUEST,New York City
Date: 08 Jul 03 - 03:02 PM

the article that was linked to in the opening post to this thread may give some people the impression that all people who oppose the government of Israel are anti-Semites, and that most certainly is not the case.

I've read and reread the article and I certainly do not get that impression. Rahola's argument is that there is anti-Semitism on the left that is being disguised as anti-Zionism. That, I would agree, is undeniable. And that is nothing new. As pointed out in another link, Dr. Martin Luther King had expressed similar observations in 1968.

Rahola has not said, as CarolC implies, that everyone who disagrees with Israeli government policy is anti-Semitic. Israel itself is not a politically monolithic society. There is a huge amount of diversity in Israeli public opinion as well as among Jewish Zionists in the diaspora. I, myself, am a member of Peace Now, support the two state solution and was rooting for Amram Mitzna's Labor Party in the recent Israeli election.

Rahola, BTW, has been an advocate for the Palestinian people for many years. She is an honest leftist who stands up for human rights and fights prejudice on all fronts.

Subject: RE: BS: Pilar Rahola on leftist anti-Semitism
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Jul 03 - 03:21 PM

Rahola has not said, as CarolC implies, that everyone who disagrees with Israeli government policy is anti-Semitic.

I didn't imply that, nor did I state it. What I said, and what I still believe, is that some people who read that article will get that impression. I have no idea whether or not it was Rahola's intention for them to do so. And my only reason for making that observation was to try to clarify for John Hindsill what I percieved to be McGrath of Harlow's reason for posting the link to the article from Uri Avnery.

The reality in the United States, regardless of what Wolfgang might choose to believe about it, is that there are many people who do believe that all people who oppose the government of Israel are anti-Semites. In my oppinion, this belief distorts the debate in a way that helps no-one.

Subject: RE: BS: Pilar Rahola on leftist anti-Semitism
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Jul 03 - 03:23 PM

But of course, it is not an article by Rahola, it is an article about her. I can't see any recognition in it that opposition to the policies of Israel can be anything other than disguised anti-semitism. No doubt, in an article by her, that qualification would be made.

Perhaps the assumption is that this is so obvious that it doesn't need stating, but it does seem to be an accusation that is in fact quite often thrown at people who are critical of Israel.

I think that anyone who is critical of Israel should actually be especially aware of and hostile to anti-semitism. Not just because it is vile (which is the main reason), but also because it helps generate and strengthen the kind of extremist anti-Arab distortion of Zionism I mentioned.

Subject: RE: BS: Pilar Rahola on leftist anti-Semitism
From: John Hindsill
Date: 08 Jul 03 - 08:53 PM

Guest,guest-"Just because something has been around..." You have an in-apt analogy here. 'anti-Semite (tic)' has an agreed upon definition, so that one can be speaking to others about the same thing. "The Protocols" are a salacious, slanderous fiction perpetrated during Czarist times, and given wide circulation in the USA by industrialist Henry Ford in the 1920s and '30s. That book is only 'true' to a Jew-hater!!!

Now I have read postings that Herzl used the term 'Zionist project' in his early works, and I have read here that he did not use that term. Whether he did or not does not much matter, because the context in which he would have used it (had he used it) would have been much different from the perjorative way that term is now used.

A few questions to ponder:

1) Why, of all the countries that were established in the Middle East by the League of Nations or the United Nations...Saudi Arabia,
(Trans)Jordan, Syria, Iraq, etc,...only Israel has to justify its existance?

2) Why do not Jews remaining in Arab countries not have participatory rights, nor the ability to freely emigrate from those countries?

3) Why, during the 20 years that Jordan controlled the so-called West Bank and Jerusalem, was there no great clamor for a Palestinean State there?

4) Why, during the the 20 years that Jordan controlled Jerusalem, were Jews forbidden from visiting and worshipping at Holy sites there?

5) Why did the government of Jordan kill thousands of Palestineans and expell the Palestinean leadership during what came to be known as "Black September"? And why was there no great world outcry against it?

Your answers to these questions, as you think about them, should be most instructive to yourselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Pilar Rahola on leftist anti-Semitism
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Jul 03 - 09:36 PM

And this question should be most instructive to you, John Hindsill, as you think about it:

Why should the Palestinians (the people whose homes have been, for generations, within the boundaries of what is now called Israel and the Palestinian Occupied Territories), be punished by the government of Israel fot the wrongs committed against them (the Palestinians) by other countries? And why should the Palestinians be punished by the government of Israel for wrongs committed against Jews by Jordan?

Subject: RE: BS: Pilar Rahola on leftist anti-Semitism
From: John Hindsill
Date: 08 Jul 03 - 11:25 PM

How very Jewish of you, CarolC, to answer a question with a question. The Palestineans are not being 'punished' as you are wont to put it for wrongs against them (the Palestineans) by other countries [whatever those might be], nor for wrongs committed against Jews in Jordan, and you know it. Your turn to answer directly. But I really meant for those to be introspective questions, so introspect away.

Subject: RE: BS: Pilar Rahola on leftist anti-Semitism
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 01:28 AM

How very Jewish of you, CarolC, to answer a question with a question.

It occurred to me after I posted those questions that someone might make such a comparison. And I choose to take it as a compliment.

The Palestineans are not being 'punished' as you are wont to put it for wrongs against them (the Palestineans) by other countries [whatever those might be], nor for wrongs committed against Jews in Jordan, and you know it.

If the content of your questions has nothing to do with how the Palestinians are being treated by the Israeli government, why did you ask them in this discussion? If they are a separate issue, why aren't we discussing them as a separate issue?

My opinion is that they are completely separate issues, and have no place in a discussion about how the Israeli government is treating the Palestinians. I do have answers to your questions, but I have very little on-line time available to me before I leave for Michigan, and I don't have time to hunt up all of the links and sources that I would need in order to properly answer your questions. Plus, if I did post the links, Wolfgang would criticize me for posting too many links. I'll have to leave this discussion in the capable hands of others for the time being.

Subject: RE: BS: Pilar Rahola on leftist anti-Semitism
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 06:45 AM

Actually it's fair to say that the Palestinians are being punished for wrongs done to the Jews by the Germans and other fellow-Europeans.

One of the most sickening things about how injustice and cruelty works is that it is contagious, it get passed on. Treat people badly enough and it twists the way they treat other people. It's happened to the Jews of Israel, and it's happened to the Palestinians. Not to all of them, but to enough to make it desperately hard to imagine a just and peaceful end to it.

The one thing we should always remember when commenting on what people do in these circumstances is that there is no reason to believe that we would behave any better, or as well, if it was us in the situation.

Subject: RE: BS: Pilar Rahola on leftist anti-Semitism
From: John Hindsill
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 09:11 AM

Nobody woke up one morning and suddenly determined how they could screw the Palestineans, but that is sort of the implication you make when you ignore the history of the region.

You can use all the cliches you wish in postings, and you can even try to make a moral equivalence between the sides, but in the long run they do not advance your arguments.

CarolC, whether for business, or pleasure, or both, have a safe trip to Michigan.

Subject: RE: BS: Pilar Rahola on leftist anti-Semitism
From: Pied Piper
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 09:22 AM

In the Bible it says "you reap what you sow", but in truth, it is the other way round, people sow what they reap, the evil done to them they do to others.

And so it goes on.

PP

Subject: RE: BS: Pilar Rahola on leftist anti-Semitism
From: Wolfgang
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 10:01 AM

In her own words: In favor of Israel

This is the piece (and there is an interview as well) that contains the words "pro-Palestinian hysteria" (which Carol quotes as 'hysterical pro-Palestinianism').

Rahola in her own words is way too much one-sided for my taste and the reliance on one single explanation, deeply rooted European Judeophobia, smells too much of explanations like 'collective unconscious' which I dislike.

In an interview she states that a minority among left intellectuals may be different, but she seems to think (and imply) that anti-semitism is the root of the opinions for a majority. I can't follow her here.

John, your questions are interesting and of course on-topic in a discussion starting with an article about Rahola and her opinions. Rahola is known for having asked similar (or even the same) questions so I fail to see how re-asking these questions can be considered off-topic.

My explanation for that is an extension of the well known phenomenon that some dead persons are closer to us than others (trivially so for friends and relations). If a small plane with two people in it crashes in my home town this accident will make page 1 and a plane crash killing 150 in the Andes will make last page as "other news from abroad". By extension, Europa and North America feels nearer to us and therefore the same amount of dead people in an accident, a crime in New York gets more coverage than in Kinshasa. Unfair perhaps, but that's how we are.

Not as well known, but I think also reliably observable, is the tendency to report deaths/injuries and injustices more often if the perpetrator is 'one of us' (in the broadest sense). An Indian killed in a car accident in Kalkutta may be noticed over here if run over by a German tourist, otherwise not. The bias is not only to report a death with greater probability if the dead person is 'one of us' but also if the one responsible for the death is 'one of us'.

So, 50 Vietnamese killed by Americans had/have more chances to make page 1 in Germany than 50 Vietnamese killed by Vietnamese. Not fair, but a consequence of the tendency of humans to be more interested in members of the 'ingroup' whether as victims or as perpetrators. Looking at it this way and counting Israel to the 'ingroup', it is no wonder that the pattern of reporting victims is as you describe (imply): Arabs killing Arabs are not as interesting/reportable as Americans or Israeli killing Arabs.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Pilar Rahola on leftist anti-Semitism
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 10:40 AM

I'm not ignoring the history of the region, John Hindsill. I can answer the questions you posed by making direct connections to the history of the region. But my opposition to the government of Israel is because of it's treatment of the Palestinians. Nothing more, nothing less. And people's opposition to the government of Israel is the subject of this thread.

At any rate, as I said, I don't have time to properly address your questions right now, so I'll have to leave it for another time, perhaps.

CarolC, whether for business, or pleasure, or both, have a safe trip to Michigan.

Thanks :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Pilar Rahola on leftist anti-Semitism
From: GUEST,New York City
Date: 15 Jul 03 - 07:53 AM

Fiamma Nirenstein of Italy is another eminent leftist who has written about the emergence of anti-Semitism in the guise of anti-Zionism.

You can read her fascinating article at this link.

Subject: RE: BS: Pilar Rahola on leftist anti-Semitism
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Jul 03 - 10:07 AM

"If you're prejudiced against Israel, then, you're against the Jews. This doesn't mean criticizing Israel and its policies is forbidden. However, very little of what we hear about Israel has to do with lucid criticism."

I'm reminded of another quote, which I've posted before: "As far as criticism is concerned, we don't resent that, unless it is absolutely biased - as it usually is." John Vorster, Prime Minuster of South Africa in Apartheid times.

If it's really true that for Fiamma Nirenstein "very little of what we hear about Israel has to do with lucid criticism" I think she must be reading the wrong critics. There's been a great deal of lucid, factual and cogent criticism of Israel published, much of it by Israelis and Jews.

Subject: RE: BS: Pilar Rahola on leftist anti-Semitism
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Jul 03 - 10:52 AM

John, your questions are interesting and of course on-topic in a discussion starting with an article about Rahola and her opinions. Rahola is known for having asked similar (or even the same) questions so I fail to see how re-asking these questions can be considered off-topic.

Using these criteria, the questions would be on topic if they were being addressed to Pilar Rahola, or if Pilar Rahola's opinions about the questions or their answers were being discussed. However, John was asking us for the answers to the questions and he said that our answers would be instructive to us. So that would mean that each of us should decide whether or not they are on topic. And with the inclusion of the qualifier "my opinion is", my response was perfectly correct.

I still don't have time to do the research to fully answer the questions, but I will say that I see no purpose in asking such questions and saying that the answers would be instructive to the answerer other than to try to show the person being asked that they have a bias or prejudice against Jews. I could be wrong about this, but it doesn't (to me) seem to leave any possibility that some people might have different information about the history and dynamics of the region than what the questioner is working with.

And as I said before, I don't see any legitimacy in connecting the policies of the Israeli government (past and present) with regard to the Palestinians, and the wrongs committed against Palestinians (or against Jews) by the governments of other countries such as Jordan, unless the questioner believes in collective punishment (ie: they're all Arabs, so each is guilty of what is done by all the others). To me that is no different than saying that Jews in Europe should be punished for what the government of Israel does to the Palestinians. My opinion is that both of these premises are wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Pilar Rahola on leftist anti-Semitism
From: John Hindsill
Date: 15 Jul 03 - 11:22 PM

Actually I was not looking for anyone to directly answer those questions for my benefit, but for the ponderer's own benefit, introspection as it were.

However, I find CarolC's rationale as expressed in her last posting to be a way to avoid answering those questions to herself. These are not trick questions. Nothing in my questions implicates "punishment", collective nor individual; what is implied is that so long as Arabs held down and mistreated refugee Palestineans no one gave a sweet damn about it. The Arab world had 19 years to set-up a Palestinean state...Iraq didn't call for it; Saudi Arabia didn't mediate it; Egypt didn't advocate for it. When Palestineans tried to wrest a homeland from Jordan, nearly 20000 were killed. There was no hue and cry in the Arab world, nor much in the Western world either. Palestinean power did not suit Arab plans then. No! The Arab world wanted the dismantling of Jewish Israel. And truth be told, that is what they still want. When Israel gained control of the "West Bank", then the Arab world wanted a Palestinean State...and when offered it, radical Palestineans negotiate by the 2nd Intifada.

It is also interesting that CarolC does not find the history of the area to be legitimate in assessing actions in the present. That does not strike me as the action of someone seeking truth, as nothing happens in a vacuum.

PS - when I use the term Arab or Arab World it is meant to reflect Arab leadership, not every Arab.

Subject: RE: BS: Pilar Rahola on leftist anti-Semitism
From: musicmick
Date: 16 Jul 03 - 01:46 AM

John, you are barking up a dead tree. The anti-Zionists are not interested in the hisrical basis of the war. Their position is rational if one accepts the Arab position that the state of Israel is an illegal state. Anyone who knows the facts of the last eighty years knows that this assertion is the be-all and end-all of the war. The legitamacy of a Palastian state has never been denied by any Israeli government. The bone of contention is, and has always been, the recognition of the Jewish state. Your anti-Zionists don't want to admit this but the various terrorist groups make no bones about it.
If and when the Arab world accepts the state of Israel, the war will end, the Palestinians will have their state and we can all go on to whatever the next world crisis will be. Shalom to all.

Subject: RE: BS: Pilar Rahola on
From: Teribus
Date: 16 Jul 03 - 07:06 AM

PP,

The quotation from the Book of Hosea is:

"They have sown the wind, and they shall reap the whirlwind."

MGoH,

"Actually it's fair to say that the Palestinians are being punished for wrongs done to the Jews by the Germans and other fellow-Europeans."

Actually it is not fair so say that.

Since the riots of 1920, orchestrated on the lies and fabrications of Yasser Arafat's uncle and mentor, Muhammed Amin al-Husseini, it would be fair to say that the Palestinian people have, and are, being punished for putting their faith in liars. Totally unprincipled leaders, who hold out the promise to their people of what they know they cannot deliver. Who maintain the farce for personal gain at the price of the suffering of their own people.

Subject: RE: BS: Pilar Rahola on leftist anti-Semitism
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Jul 03 - 08:50 AM

Actually, John, I have posted extensively in this forum about the history of the region. I have even been chastized by Wolfgang for posting too many links while doing so. A search of my posting history would bring up many of the answers to your questions already posted by me.

Trying to place responsibility for the displaced Palestinians onto the countries surrounding Israel/Palestine instead of onto Israel itself is an obfuscation and a rationalization for unacceptable behavior on the part of Israel. The displaced Palestinians are Israel's responsibility and problem first and foremost. Any mistreatment of the displaced Palestinians by the countries to which they fled in terror from the Europeans who were slaughtering them and chasing them from their homes was/is despicable. But it would never have happened if they hadn't been chased from their homes in the first place.

The treatment that Jews fleeing from the Nazis experienced from some countries who wouldn't let them in during WWII was despicable, but it doesn't in any way free the Nazis from responsibility for what they did. You will tell me that what happened to the Palestinians during the Nakba is in no way comparable to what happened to Jews during WWII. This is true. But the comparison I've made here is appropriate because it addresses specific situations that are comparable in each event rather than the entire event. The European Jews were fleeing for their lives. The Palestinians were also fleeing for their lives. Had they not been, they would have stayed in their homes.

My interest in the plight of the Palestinians in Israel/Palestine, and my responsibility (my complicity) in this matter is direct and material since it is my tax dollars that are making Israel's mistreatment of them possible. I have a responsibility to speak up and not be silent on this issue as long as this mistreatment continues. I have not been inconsistant about speaking up when I have a responsibility to do so. I have spoken up about the despicable and sometimes criminal behavior of my own government in other countries whenever I have become aware of this misbehavior, and also about it when it happens here. I will not be silent and complicit about these things. And as long as several billions of US tax dollars go to Israel every year to make it possiblit for Israel to do what it's doing, I have a right and a responsibility to speak up about it. And so do you if you live in the US.

I still don't have time to hunt up my old links and find new ones for you, but if you really think it's important to read what my answers to your questions are, you can take the time to search my posting history and find many of the answers to those questions for yourself. Believe me, I have already spent many, many hours doing the research, and posting it here.

Subject: RE: BS: Pilar Rahola on leftist anti-Semitism
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Jul 03 - 09:21 AM

By the way, I didn't really know much about the situation in the Middle East until March of 2002. For my whole life I just accepted whatever I was told about it by my government and by my friends who had an interest in the region. And because of that, I bought into the stereotypes about Palestinians and Arabs that are ingrained in the culture of the area in which I grew up, which, as you noticed, was as Jewish as it was anything else, and I asked no questions.

In March of 2002, all of that changed for me. I lost my innocence about Israel/Palestine when I saw, on my television, a Palestinian man, sitting on the floor in his livingroom next to the decaying bodies of his sister and her husband. They had been killed by Israeli soldiers and they had been lying there for two or three days. They were beginning to subside into shapeless masses right there on the man's livingroom floor. He couldn't leave his apartment because Israeli snipers were randomly shooting at people in the streets of the city in which this man lived. I also saw women and old men being shot at by snipers in the streets of this city.

As long as I live, I will never forget the look on that man's face as he sat, bewildered and scared, on his livingroom floor next to the decomposing bodies of his sister and brother-in-law. My stomach twists itself into knots every time I even think about it. I will not be silent while my tax dollars are paying for these crimes.

Subject: RE: BS: Pilar Rahola on leftist anti-Semitism
From: John Hindsill
Date: 16 Jul 03 - 09:54 AM

CarolC - With regard to you paragraph 2 above, we fundamentally disagree. Palestineans need not have been displaced from their homes as you put it. In most cases, not all, they chose what they thought was a temporary (until Israel was crushed) situation.

Regarding your mantra of "the unacceptable behavior" of Israel towards Palestineans, Palestinean citizens of Israel were (and are) treated light years better than their brethern under Arab control (perfectly, no; better, yes). And Palestineans coming under Israeli control after 1967 were also treated better by the Jewish state than by Jordan. Of course Palestineans are now treated as an enemy because there is a 'defacto' war by them against Jewish Israel. Therefore, I cannot believe that you really believe your statement.

Jews had had a presence in the land from Biblical times, through the Crusades, through the Ottomans and through the British mandate. And from the late 19th century, groups as the Zionists, were negotiating for a Jewish homeland where there had always been Jews. Interestingly, the British offered Herzl (part of) Uganda for a Jewish state; it was not accepted for obvious reasons.

Subject: RE: BS: Pilar Rahola on leftist anti-Semitism
From: John Hindsill
Date: 16 Jul 03 - 09:59 AM

So one picture has made you anti-Israeli! What about pictures of Pizza Parlors blown up by suicide murderers?! What a piece of work!

Subject: RE: BS: Pilar Rahola on leftist anti-Semitism
From: GUEST,delurker
Date: 16 Jul 03 - 10:32 AM

"By the way, I didn't really know much about the situation in the Middle East until March of 2002. For my whole life I just accepted whatever I was told about it by my government and by my friends who had an interest in the region. And because of that, I bought into the stereotypes about Palestinians and Arabs that are ingrained in the culture of the area in which I grew up, which, as you noticed, was as Jewish as it was anything else, and I asked no questions.

In March of 2002, all of that changed for me. I lost my innocence about Israel/Palestine when I saw, on my television, a Palestinian man, sitting on the floor in his livingroom next to the decaying bodies of his sister and her husband."

So, CarolC, your awakening to the situation occurred in March 2002 when you supposedly saw what you describe on television. I've just spent the past hour searching the archives of all the major television news services and could find no archive of such a report in March 2002.

Those of us who have followed your thousands of postings on this subject will no doubt recall, that it was about that time, on April 1, 2002, that you posted the following:

"So it was only a few weeks ago that I was told that it's ok for me to not be Jewish because I'm a cute little Shiksa. (A word that I understand is used as a perjorative.) Now, this was told to me by someone I consider to be a friend. Still, if the shoe was on the other
foot, and it was a Gentile who said something like "it's ok for you not to be a Gentile because your're cute when you dance the Hora around the campfire", I guess you would consider that anti-Semitism. But it seems that calling me a cute little Shiksa is acceptible."

We recall that it was your claim of *reverse anti-Semitism* that set you off on your crusade.

Subject: RE: BS: Pilar Rahola on leftist anti-Semitism
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Jul 03 - 11:19 AM

First of all, John, I'm not anti-Israel. The fact that you put that label on me proves that you are working with stereotypes of people who criticize the government of Israel, or in denial about the possibility that a person could be critical of the Israeli government and not be and anti-Israel. I have no problem with Israel existing within the pre-67 borders. It's Israeli expansionism that I have a problem with, and the treatment of Palestinian Israelis within Israel.

Secondly, you are working with incorrect information about the history of Israel. You have bought into the mythos of Israel that is taught to Israelis and those of us here in the US. The people I get my information from, by the way, are Jewish themselves. And many of them are people who are/were prominent Israelis and Israeli government officials. If you did some research of your own instead of buying into the propaganda hype, you would come away from the experience with a whole different perspective than the one you have. That is, unless you refuse to see Palestinians as human beings.

CarolC - With regard to you paragraph 2 above, we fundamentally disagree. Palestineans need not have been displaced from their homes as you put it. In most cases, not all, they chose what they thought was a temporary (until Israel was crushed) situation.

This is entirely incorrect. It is vicious propaganda. It's like saying that the European Jews "chose" to leave their homes in Europe. The displaced Palestinians were fleeing for their lives. They may have thought they would only have to leave temporarily, but they didn't "choose" to leave, unless you consider choosing life over death to be a real choice.

Regarding your mantra of "the unacceptable behavior" of Israel towards Palestineans, Palestinean citizens of Israel were (and are) treated light years better than their brethern under Arab control (perfectly, no; better, yes).

In some cases this is correct, and in some, it is not. But correct or no, if it is wrong, it is wrong, no matter who does it and to what degree. If it is wrong, you can't justify it by saying that someone else is doing it too.

And Palestineans coming under Israeli control after 1967 were also treated better by the Jewish state than by Jordan. Of course Palestineans are now treated as an enemy because there is a 'defacto' war by them against Jewish Israel. Therefore, I cannot believe that you really believe your statement.

Again, in some cases this is correct and in some it is not. And again, if the behavior is wrong, it is wrong, and you can't justify it by saying it's ok because Jordan is doing it too.

Jews had had a presence in the land from Biblical times, through the Crusades, through the Ottomans and through the British mandate. And from the late 19th century, groups as the Zionists, were negotiating for a Jewish homeland where there had always been Jews.

Yes. This is true. And many of those Palestinian Jews are just as pissed off at the Europeans as the Palestinian Muslims and Christians. They all got along just fine until the Europeans showed up. That's when things started turning hateful.

Interestingly, the British offered Herzl (part of) Uganda for a Jewish state; it was not accepted for obvious reasons.

I'm aware of that. And just as interestingly, the British promised the Palestinians a homeland in Palestine.

So one picture has made you anti-Israeli! What about pictures of Pizza Parlors blown up by suicide murderers?! What a piece of work!

I abhore the pictures of Israelis being blown up by suicide bombers. And I blame the government of Israel for their deaths. But I have been seeing those pictures for years, and I have been angry about that for years. What I didn't ever see before was the devastation being wreaked upon the Palestinians by the Israeli government. There have been vastly greater numbers of Palestinians killed by Israelis than the other way around, and the amount of devastation that the Palestinians have experienced at the hands of the Israeli government makes the suicide bombings in pizza parlors look like a picnic. That is, unless you place greater value on the lives of Israeli Jews than you do on the lives of Palestinians.

I was shocked when I saw that man on my television. But I was ignorant of the real situation over there when I saw that. I didn't start getting angry with the government of Israel until I started doing some research, and finding out what's really been going on over there. Again, most of my information comes from Jews, many of them Israelis, and many of those, government officials. If you are Jewish, you should be angry about what the government of Israel is doing in your name.

We recall that it was your claim of *reverse anti-Semitism* that set you off on your crusade.

Hardly, delurker. It was the information I was getting about what the government of Israel is and has been doing to the Palestinians that set me off. Any signs of anger you saw in my posts back then was symptomatic of the shock and outrage I was experiencing as I was in the process of discovering just how thoroughly I had been lied to and misled. I'm not shocked any more. Just angry and deeply saddened.

Subject: RE: BS: Pilar Rahola on leftist anti-Semitism
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 16 Jul 03 - 11:35 AM

Good bye, dear friends - I'm quitting all threads about anti- ...isms in the Near East. They don't bring anything as long as questions of right or wrong are discussed, mostly by journalists (look at this thread.
Didn't you notice the only everlasting law in the world:

Subject: RE: BS: Pilar Rahola on leftist anti-Semitism
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 16 Jul 03 - 11:38 AM

(continued, pressed the wrong key)
THE SWORD REIGNETH? What is won by the sword, will be taken away by the sword. And when the hawks are cring "war", and the doves are chirping "peace", guess who will win?

Wilfried

Subject: RE: BS: Pilar Rahola on leftist anti-Semitism
From: Teribus
Date: 16 Jul 03 - 11:44 AM

Guest delurker,

Run your same search for 3rd April, 2002 - that's the date Carol said she saw the pictures and coverage of the story - reporting same here on the 'cat on 4th April.

Subject: RE: BS: Pilar Rahola on leftist anti-Semitism
From: Wolfgang
Date: 16 Jul 03 - 12:34 PM

Back from how Palestinians are treated in and by various countries in the Middle East to the theme of the thread, leftist anti-semitism in Europe:
I found Fiamma Nirenstein's article much more interesting than Rahola's. Of course, it had weak parts too, in my eyes, and I was not surprised at all that it was McGrath who found what I too consider a weak part in her argumentation.

I liked it more (1) for a much more personal perspective and (2) because it did not pin down the anti-semitism to a kind of mystic hate of Jews in the European soul but tried to argue other sources for that feeling. "A true German has a natural inborn dislike for the (ways of the) Jews" was heard and read over here from at least the 1880s on. That mystic argumentation with the German soul doesn't sound much better if we insert 'Spanish' or 'European' instead of 'German' and if the argument comes from a totally different point of view and serves a completely different purpose.

If there is anti-Semitism in Europe (and there is, in the Right, in the Left and elsewhere) it is counter-productive to explain it by an archaic hate of Jews (for that comes close to declare it unavoidable). Nirenstein has hinted at other explanations and she is to be commended in my eyes for a much better level of analysis than Rahola.

Wolfgang