BS: De-Christianizing Christmas

Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas
From: catspaw49
Date: 11 Jan 02 - 11:21 AM

Heah....Well here's ol' Phil's official site and the last picture yhat finally locks in after several in the in intro is a godd shot of a groundhog...in this case, Punxatawney Phil. Again though, we will not refer to it as Groundhog Day, but rather Whatevertafuck 2-2.

Phil

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas
From: SharonA
Date: 11 Jan 02 - 11:24 AM

Typo alert: Sorry, that Marmot definition above should have said "...burrowing rodent..."

By the way, Candlemas doesn't seem to be a big deal around these parts; I'm sure most folks don't even know about it. Perhaps the Catholic church celebrates it, but in contrast to Kevin's description of "candles everywhere" overseas, there are basically "candles nowhere" here (except the occasional house where the Christmas lights in the windows are still turned on at night) (then again, some people leave those turned on all year 'round).

Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas
From: SharonA
Date: 11 Jan 02 - 11:35 AM

Kevin (McGrath): I'd learned that tongue-twister slightly differently: "How much wood would a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood?"

catspaw: I was hoping you'd tell me if "grinny" is a common term in Ohio for groundhog, or if my friend simply invented it. Inquiring minds want to know!

Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas
From: NicoleC
Date: 11 Jan 02 - 11:41 AM

Joe, do you live in the same northern California *I* live in?

I think you're happy-hallucinating all those flowers and springtime signs. All I see is fog :)

Good luck this weekend.

Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas
From: Mrrzy
Date: 11 Jan 02 - 12:48 PM

thread creep: happy happ tomorrow, Joe!

And now, back to the show:

Well, ask a question, go away to await an answer, and look what you get! Good discussion, all, and some immediate responses… sorry for the long post, but this IS a very interesting discussion, as someone mentioned…

MMArio – Ummm, how does noticing physical reality, like the fact that our orbit is elliptical and our planet's axis of rotation tilted from the orthogonal to the plane of that orbit, become religion? The days DO get shorter, nothing religious about that, in the fall. Also, I explained our take on presents – it's a physical demonstration of love of family, which is again, not religious. One can love without positing supernatural beings.

Jeri – good song suggestions! And in your second post, I wondered that too…

WYSIWYG – our midwinter would be pro-family, pro-love, pro-Spring Will Come Again; the celebration isn't anti-Christian or anti-faith, just Christ- or Faith-INDEPENDENT. I do admit that the thread title doesn't bear that out, but I'd hoped that my intro paragraph would. We incorporate a lot of Kwanzaa, just without the exclusionary language (PEOPLE should have unity, not Americans of African Ancestry should have unity, and so on).

Ron Olesko – the reason Why Bother is that having the vestiges of Christianity in our hitherto-thought-of-as-secular midwinter holiday, which we did call Christmas, bothers some of us, most notably the (one) religious Jew and some of the (many) atheists. It would NOT bother the others NOT to celebrate Christmas, so that is why bother, I guess! Might as well not have anybody unhappy at the outset, or feeling excluded which my nephew certainly does more than I… and I have no arguments with celebrating the Solstice, after all, it really happens whether you are a theist or not, but we don't all have the solstice OFF, so we HAVE to do it at Christmas. We just don't want to DO Christmas then. And we're not trying to sell others on it, I am asking for opinions and guidance in how to do it and still have it MEAN something to us. Also, as a committed (or suitable for being committed?) decaf drinker, let me tell you, decaf has ALL the psychological Up power of coffee, AND just enough caffeine for the physical lift if you're caffeine-sensitive…

Mark Clark – thanks, interesting article!

MMario – yes, indeed, but many solstice things are real, not supernatural, so I have no argument with including them. I like the evergreen, especially, as a celebration of the human intellect, which possibly alone on the planet can realize, in the depths of winter, that Spring will come again. I love that.

Joe Offer – I noticed that too, my kids are doing Hanukkah and Kwanzaa stuff at school, but can't do anything Christian-Christmassy… in high school once I did a paper on comparative religion, comparing the origin myth in ancient Egypt, ancient Greece, and modern Christianity, and got in all kinds of trouble for treating the Christian myth as mythology! Ridiculous. Unfortunately, it's the basic assumption of Christianity as NORMAL and of everything else as mythology/superstition that is at the crux, pardon the pun, of what bothers both Nick and me so much. We aren't Christians but that should not make use deviates, by definition, the way it seems to, and seems even more to at Midwinter. So in answer to another of your questions, just because something real, like an evergreen, also has religious connotations, doesn't mean it has to be eliminated. But the things that are ONLY religious and have no basis in actual physical reality, like Christ, angels, etc., are what I'm trying to circumvent. So much of the basic ancient Solstice stuff is fine, we just don't WORSHIP the planet as it orbits, we NOTICE and celebrate the breakpoints; I also note the equinoxes and the summer solstice…

SharonA – you'd be AMAZED at what people in my family can take the wrong way! The ongoing argument with the very Jewish nephew all circle around the basic fact that WE are doing nothing to exclude him but nonetheless, what we do DOES leave him feeling excluded, and I am on his side to a great extent. I agree with you that people OUGHT NOT take things the wrong way, but we are dealing with an already dysfunctional group, remember! LOL! I wish I could say that all songs of peace and goodwill are fine; but I really mind the ones that say it's So you'll go to heaven later, or So some supernatural being will be happy with you, OR that it's the angels who brought this idea to humans, and all the other devaluing-of-humanity garbage, sorry, there really is no better word, that putting religion between people and reality does. Rant off for now…

RON Olesko, I'm going to try again… there already IS a holiday that is being celebrated on Dec. 25th. We don't want to have NO holiday where the whole family gets together, overeats, and gives presents to each other. The trick is to have a holiday that includes our whole family, some of whom are Moslem, some Jewish, one Christian (unless you count the extendeds, which includes Catholics, Mormons, Quakers, and others), and the large majority is atheists. Giving gifts is NOT tied to religion by definition, how did you make that leap of logic? Yes, birthdays and anniversaries are nice, but they do not include the whole family, who travel for hundreds of miles once a year to be together and share presents. We can't call an entire-family holiday just because one or two people are having a birthday, or a couple is having an anniversary. Just because the evergreen ALSO has religious connotations doesn't make it religions, it's a real-life tree. Do I make more sense now?

SharonA said it for me, but I hadn't read that far yet…

And RonO, it isn't that we are unwilling to get together, it's just that because of the basic assumed Christianity of this country, yuletide is the only time of year we all have off from work. And I thought I was trying to do the exact opposite of "taking the symbols and themes of the holiday and making [them] serve another purpose" – I'm for keeping the holiday and changing the symbols and themes!

53 – see all above

Jerry Rasmussen – BINGO. That is one of the things I'm asking for advice on – I was willing to call it Midwinter, but that isn't accurate as was pointed out, so how about NeoWinter? New celebration, new winter, etc?

McGrath of Harlow – You say re: minding all the Christmas stuff as Jpe Offer mentioned – "I can't. I've don't feel the least bit uncomfortable about Muslims celebrating Ramadan and Id-al-fitar, or Jews celebrasting Passover and Hanukah , or Hindus with Divali and Holiand so forth. The more celebrations the better, and the more we all feel invited to join in them the better still." I would normally agree with you BUT Hanukkah and Kwanzaa are so visibly afterthoughts, with everything DEFAULT being Christian; I have NEVER anywhere in the US seen a Sears doing Ramadan sales. I have never anywhere seen a store even doing a Hanukkah sale. If all were treated equally, I wouldn't mind. What I do mind is the ASSUMPTION that Christianity is the norm, the default, and that anything else is "something else" – and atheism isn't even a possibility. Yuck. And again, we are stuck with Dec. 25th because this assumption is our own governments' as well. Double yuck.

MMario – and well it should be!

Liz the Squeak – I was hoping to hear from you on this one! Yes, Yule is OK with me – even if it has religious CONNOTATIONS it isn't BY DEFINITION a religious thing – and yes, we do need a secular word for holiday! How about Great Day? It would sound like a Southerner swearing, but hey, I hear a lot of that anyway… to become greday eventually, à la holy day becoming holiday.

Lepus Rex – if it was just me being atheistic, I'd agree with you, but there is that pesky fundamentalist nephew, who isn't atheistic, so it DOES offend his whatevers, unfortunately…and no, nobody had mentioned Festivus! Whazzat? But about Santa, for some reason, he's OK with the nephew at issue, go figure. I'd rather eliminate him too except for the goodness it's worth in December (don't do that, Santa might see you!)…

CapriUni, good explanation of solstice etc. Yes, logistics are logistics, gender remaining irrelevant. But the solstice is planetary, not hemispherical, it's just our winter one is their summer one. They have their winter solstice in our summer.

Clint Keller, if only it were so easy! Some of us, you see, care. And I think all of us, not just CapriUni, will be quoting that art/critic phrase! Very good one!

Joe Offer – them Catlicks sure know how to throw a wedding! They didn't mind the likes of us at all, it will be excellent, my well-wishes will be with you though I will not…

Misophist – actually the plan is that the holly represent evergreens, the tree represent evergreens, and the mistletoe represent evergreens. Evergreens are the symbol of humanity's ken, that despite the physical appearance of the world, we have the knowledge, or foreknowledge if you will, of the future coming of Spring and the greening of what is now appearing to be dead. Baldur the Beautiful, Thor, Christ, or other mythological figures are not involved.

MartyD – I actually had been wondering about Columbus day, why not call it Kill off the Indigenous populations day? Exploration day indeed, that alone implies that nobody knew of this land before the Europeans got there… what, the natives had no maps? (sorry! But that is exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about!)

Rolfyboy6 – Second the motion!

JimmyC – exactly! That is why I don't want to CALL what we do Christmas!

Dave the Gnome – I think you've been answered?

McGrath again – yes, Groundhog day is ubiquitous in the US, but I don't think it's exactly CELEBRATED, more noticed.

Dani – beautiful, but not for me. Let's allow for some high days to be NOT holy. Freedom FROM religion! What an immaculate concept!

Spaw – a better idea than you know, probably! I'm against the use of the year numbers we use, as they are based on Christianity; but then again, apparently anybody who counts the years starts them SOMEWHERE – and that somewhere is basically religious in all calendars. I'd like to see the years numbered according to reality, say they start with the uprise of humanity (nobody else cares what year it is), we'd be in, oh, say circa 5,002,002, so then the 2002 would be OK, just rounding error…???

Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 11 Jan 02 - 01:08 PM

Festivus was the holiday created by Frank Costanza on 'Seinfeld,' and takes place on Dec.23rd. Here's some information about the BEST HOLIDAY EVER (ripped off from some website because I'm too lazy to write it myself):

"Many Christmases ago, Frank Costanza went to buy a doll for his son. He went to reach for it because it was the last one, but so did another man and as Frank rained blows upon him, he thought there could be another way. The doll was destroyed, but out of that, a new holiday was born. It was called Festivus. No, not feminist, festivus. A festivus for the rest-of-us...

During the last few weeks in December when Festivus takes place, families and friends get together at the dinner table and have something called "the Airing of Grievances". Durning this time, we share with family and friends all the ways they had disappointed over the past year.

After the Airing of Grievances, we get together right in the same night to do something called "Feats of Strength". This is where the head of the household tests his/her strength with another friend or family member. The great honour is given out to a different person each year...

Now for the pole. No it is not a tree. A pole, no decorations. Frank Costanza believes that tinsel is very distracting so there are no decorations. The pole is tall, silver, hollow, long, skinny, and heavy..."

So, that's Festivus, and I think it's what your family is looking for, Mrrzy.

Ah, and it's also a kick-ass ice cream flavour. :)

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas
From: Dani
Date: 11 Jan 02 - 01:13 PM

Mrrzy, I think what we've got is a wording thing happening.

"noticing physical reality, like the fact that our orbit is elliptical and our planet's axis of rotation tilted from the orthogonal to the plane of that orbit...The days DO get shorter, in the fall...physical demonstration of love of family"

To me, doing these things in awareness of them, of your part in them, MAKES them holy, and makes time spent with people you love sacred. I'm not talking about supernatural beings at all. Mindfulness of the blessings of love, and of the Earth, are religion enough for many, name it what you will.

Dani

Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 11 Jan 02 - 01:32 PM

I think it's high time we had some new holidays here in England as the rest of the world seems to have more than us!! We have 7(?) public holidays a year including christmas so yes lets think of others. Hey if the christian church can hijack celebrations and make them their own then why not borrow a few from somewhere else.

Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas
From: Mrrzy
Date: 11 Jan 02 - 01:35 PM

O for crying out loud. Please do not make everything that is nice, sacred. Please. That is the worst possible case of foisting your religious beliefs on others. My awareness of reality doesn't make anything holy, or anything at all for that matter, Heisenberg or the quantum physicists notwithstanding. Sorry, Dani, but the bumpersticker that says God, save me from Your followers springs to mind. The time I spend with my loved ones is CHERISHED. It is NOT sacred, since BY DEFINITION that would make, say, having a crying meltdown during that time, sacrilege or blasphemy or an offense against somebody's (yours, very likely) god. Really! Sounds like the Jews I went to college with, telling me I HAD TO BE Jewish because some of my maternal relatives were offed in the Holocaust. Please.

On the other hand, Lepus - the Airing of Grievances is a great addition to my yuletide or whatever! And instead of the Feats of Strength, we have the Telling of Old Tales, like the time I flooded the whole house reading Spiderman comics "while" the bathtub filled... Maybe since we are so matriarchal, the Feats of Strength have gone by the wayside... but I'd have to draw the line at the pole, though. As the African once told me (when asked why his tribe didn't eat white people) - what do THEY represent? Gotta have that greenery somewhere...? Quick, somebody ask George!

Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas
From: GUEST,Deda
Date: 11 Jan 02 - 01:37 PM

Having been married into an orthodox Jewish family for 15 years (1972-1987), my educated guess is that the orthodox nephew will feel left out regardless, unless you all take up celebrating Hannukah, which actually doesn't usually overlap with Christmas; this year it started December 8 or 9, as I remember, and next year I think it comes even earlier. Anything you create will be outside of his tradition, which, if he is truly observant, is what really matters to him and has meaning for him. Anything that smacks of Christianity or Christian traditions will remind him that his people (read, his relatives, his family members, his parents' parents) have been hated, burned at the stake, accused of every conceivable kind of crazy horrors, generally persecuted, down through repetitive centuries. The fact that Dec 25 is a national holiday not only in the US but all over Europe just reminds him of how insecure and unsafe is his place in the world, outside of Israel or a few tight communities scattered across the world. He has a strong, rich, long and deep tradition of holidays and observances which have sustained and comforted Jews through the worst and hardest of times, and he no doubt believes that his are God's chosen people (the question is sometimes "chosen for what?", but that's a different thread altogether). What to do about holidays is something I struggle with pretty much every December, because I have an orthodox daughter and grandson, a non-believing son, and a husband who just likes to put up lights and a tree, and whose birthday is 12/26. I'm always ambivalent no matter what I do.

Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas
From: Dani
Date: 11 Jan 02 - 02:00 PM

Mrrzy,

Having a crying meltdown would not at ALL seem blasphemous to me, Mrrzy. That's the point, I think. I think the best kind of time with people you love, and people you DON'T love, for that matter, includes the good and the bad. If it only included smiling faces of well-behaved people who opened and appreciated perfect gifts perfectly given, that would seem to me to be distinctly UNholy celebration. It's only when the turkey burns and the kid is brought home by the police for shoplifting that you start to figure out holy love.

And I don't mean to say everyone, every thing, every experience is holy and sacred. I meant only to pin that on your response to Mmario's thoughts, just to recognize that there is stuff we don't get, but that many people ascribe 'religion' to. And I KNOW that you're disagreeing; that's fine!

What I think you're saying is, take the STUFF out of all this, get rid of the baggage, the labels, the otherworldliness of it. I'm inclined to feel that way as well, but I am also inclined to believe that there ARE some things worth paying attention to on a deeper level, sometimes at the change of seasons, sometimes for no reason at all, and that doesn't mean YOU have to do it, or that you have to use the same words if you DO.

Dani

Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas
From: Mrrzy
Date: 11 Jan 02 - 02:14 PM

Thanks, Dani. I just object -- strenuously-- when someone, anyone, takes their religious terms and tries to shove me, square peg that I am, into that round hole. If not observing something isn't blasphemy than that something isn't holy, or sacred, by the very definition of holy or sacred. You can THINK of me as sacred if you must, but you may not call what I do "making" anything holy. You can do the making, but you can't say that I am doing it, when I'm not, sorry! I think it was the phrase doing these things in awareness of them, of your part in them, MAKES them holy, and makes time spent with people you love sacred - if you'd simply added "to me" at the end, I'd not have argued other than to add QWell, not to me! It's this exact taking of a religious aspect of something, and turning into the very definition of that something even for the nonbelievers that I find so oppressively repugnant. The Nazis did exactly that to my Mom's family, who may have been Jewish by some definitions, but who celebrated Christmas, with live candles on the tree. Didn't help them one little bit, Barney!

Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas
From: Ron Olesko
Date: 11 Jan 02 - 02:14 PM

Mrrzy -

I'm glad you responded again. You did a better job of clarifying what you were trying to accomplish. My initial response was based on a different take on what I read. From your response it seems like you are trying to create a wonderful event for YOUR family, an idea which is very admirable.

One clarification on something I said that you questioned - the religious connection with gift giving is simple - gifts were given to symbolize the Magi's gifts to the Christ Child, as well as the connection with the legend of the real St. Nicholas.

You are right, there needs to be nothing religious about giving a gift. I look at Christmas as a celebration of various cultures and folklores. The stories behind the various symbols of the season to me show the diversity of the holiday. Whether one chooses to celebrate the religious significance is a personal choice.

It is the same with St.Patrick's Day - you don't have to be Irish to appreciate the culture. You don't have to be a Native American or a Pilgrim to celebrate Thanksgiving.

As you pointed out, there is an assumed Christian society that we live in. It is nearly impossible to divest from all the vestiges of religion (check the printing on your money!) and finding common ground is rough.

You've taken on an enormous task. I wish you luck and congratulate you for attempting to do something that brings the family together. As I mentioned in one of my previous posts, use the existing symbols to take on new meaning in your celebration! Perhaps next year you can tell us how it went. Best of luck!

Ron

Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas
From: Mrrzy
Date: 11 Jan 02 - 02:25 PM

Oh Ron, don't get me STARTED on the money, LOL! ANd I have to say, I would probably not be attempting this, if it weren't for the one nephew (bigoted as they come, but hey, he's young) who is so rabidly anti-Christmas, so the two of us faced the whole family and were soundly defeated... but we're trying through insidious means to regain an advantage, AAAH ha ha ha... it's fun, in other words. We'll see how it shakes out, indeed...

Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas
From: SharonA
Date: 11 Jan 02 - 02:34 PM

Mrrzy: I'm sorry. I didn't realize the religious dynamic involved here. You say, "The trick is to have a holiday that includes our whole family, some of whom are Moslem, some Jewish, one Christian [I assume this means Protestant, such as Baptist or something] (unless you count the extendeds, which includes Catholics, Mormons, Quakers, and others), and the large majority is atheists." Yikes! That's a tall order, if even one of them feels excluded by anyone else's tradition (as your nephew seems to be, though no one means to offend him).

If I were in your position, I would've thrown up my hands long ago and said to everyone, "Now, LOOK. This is MY house and I'll decorate it any way I damn well please, and I expect you all to be gracious and make nice compliments about how nice everything looks, and play along with whatever secular entertainment I've planned for the evening. Next year, we'll all go to [very Jewish nephew's name]'s place and we'll all be kosher for a day, and the year after that we'll go to [Moslem relative's name]'s place and wish each other a happy Ramadan AND LIKE IT!!! But for today, the @#$% angel is gonna STAY on the @#$% tree while we gather 'round the @#$% piano and sing 'We Wish You a Merry Dollar-mas' !!!!!"

But then, I'm dysfunctional, too.... *G*

Seriously, though, why don't you send a questionnaire to all the relatives involved and ask them to list the things they'd like to sing/eat/do during your get-together? I suggest a questionnaire rather than a face-to-face discussion so that people won't get into an argument (at least, not quite so easily). Then tally up the answers and see if there are any things that each person has requested. If so, you've got your holiday plan. If not, then tell everyone that there's no point in arguing because everyone will never agree... so y'all had better agree to disagree.

Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas
From: Ron Olesko
Date: 11 Jan 02 - 02:34 PM

He is young, he will probably mellow in later years!! To me, the wonderful thing about December is the diversity of celebrations that are taking place. All the religions seem to be celebrating something and if people look hard enough they will see how the celebrations mingle. I love folklore and this is a wonderful time of year where people can reflect on their heritage and appreciate those of others.

As for the money, you are right!!! It seems to be how much you spend and the thought behind why you are giving a gift is lost. But that is another thread!!!

As you mentioned though, it is fun. That is the thought that everyone needs to remember, no matter how they celebrate! Enjoy!!!!

Ron

Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas
From: Mrrzy
Date: 11 Jan 02 - 02:50 PM

SharonA, you're a hoot! If I were hosting, I'd consider it! And the nephew in question already hosts (well, his Mom does) Thanksgiving, and boy was it Kosher this year, and while we all made fun of it to each other but NOT TO THE ONE WHO INSISTED, it went fairly well, even if we DID have to lie to Mom and pretend there was butter in the mashed potatoes (Now who's being dysfuncitonal???) which were made with marge and soy milk and were the best mashed pots I ever ate, having been made with baked potatoes. And the Christian niece doesn't call herself anything more precise than Christian, but she doesn't confess so I guess that makes her Protestant, yes? And she is The Keeper of All Traditions (no you can't sit there, that isn't where you sat last year and the year before...) and SHE doesn't mind taking the angels off the tree... much... so there is hope!

Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas
From: SharonA
Date: 11 Jan 02 - 03:12 PM

Mrrzy: From what I understand, all Catholics are supposed to confess, but I can't speak for every individual! LOL!

It just scared me a little bit when you separated "Christian" from "Catholic" and "Mormon"! Of course, some people consider themselves "christian" with a small "c" (as Dani mentioned earlier, in her experience with the UU's).
<>br> Anyway, I'm glad to hear that there's hope. I've pretty well given up on that concept where my own family is concerned!! Did you read this story of mine on the "Cracker Jokes" thread?

Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas
From: Dani
Date: 11 Jan 02 - 03:27 PM

Oh, well, you can just always add that ", to me" on whatever I say, because I almost always speak from my *&@&#* soapbox. A nasty habit. Wish we could all argue about this over some eggnog and whiskey in person!

Dani

Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas
From: Mrrzy
Date: 11 Jan 02 - 03:32 PM

Eggnog and Whiskey (I especially like Bourbon here though I'm usually an Irish drinker), yum yum! And I'll check that story too...

Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas
From: Mrrzy
Date: 11 Jan 02 - 03:36 PM

Re: your story, possibly the gravy would have "accidentally" ended up in the offender's lap, maybe not; it would depend on my personal history with the individual. I can't imagine something like that going unchallenged at our table, though! Man, even the nicest things rarely go unchallenged chez nous!

Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 11 Jan 02 - 04:13 PM

All praise to Mudcatters. This thread could have been grossly offensive to Christians. For all the wild range of opinions expressed, there's been a basic respect in the postings. Good for you Mrrzy! May we all find our own reasons to rejoice in the darkest days of Winter and when we can, let's enjoy it together.<

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas
From: catspaw49
Date: 11 Jan 02 - 04:45 PM

I think, upon continued and further reading here, my idea for an International Holiday Registry has a helluva' lot of merit. An awful lot that has been written here could be solved! Until then, let me wish you all a Joyous Whatevertafuck 1-96!!!

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas
From: CapriUni
Date: 11 Jan 02 - 05:10 PM

Mrrzy --

Yes, I know that the solstice happens all over the world (at least for those who live a certian number of degrees lattitude north and south of the equator). But a winter solstice has a different emotional connotation than a summer solstice, which is why I only specified the Northern Hemisphere in my post.

As for the decorating of my tree (which you specifically asked about in your opening post and I never seemed to get around to mentioning), I top it with a stylized sun cut from paper, and painted with iridescent copper paint. Other ornaments (also of paper -- I have two cats and don't want to do anything breakable) included spirals to represent the turning cycle of life, and "valentine" hearts. Next year, I'm thinking of decorating the tree with silk flowers, and little toy plastic animals, such as you can in stores specializing in "educational" toys, so that the tree truly represents the "Tree of Life"... But my imagination perrenially gets away from me, so don't count on it.

:::Toungue firmly planted in cheek, here:::

If members of your family insist on having something with wings on the top of your tree, why not do a representation of a dove?

You could keep the peace by telling the Christians that it represents the Holy Ghost which impregnated Mary, the Jewish lad and the Muslims that it represents the dove that Noah sent out, representing God's covenant with Man, and for the Atheists, it's just a nice looking bird, which, like the evergreens, represents the birds that will return in the spring ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 11 Jan 02 - 05:14 PM

After a long Winter's nap -

Well Mrrzy - no one has yet figured out your gender and I'm real proud of you *G*.

After not seeing you post for so long I really enjoyed this one. The Holidays are just that. Holidays. The time away from work is great, we focus our energy on the little ones in our crew, and simply gather to attempt reconciliation from the perceived injustices of the prior year. My family isn't dysfunctional it is Maladaptive (political correctness begins at the Cat). Actually we really don't enjoy being around each other a lot so whatever that may translate into *G*.

Since I don't shop for Christmas I don't hear the music, and the extended periods of decorating are also lost on me. I do enjoy the occasionally well decorated house as it evokes good memories of my childhood.

Jan and I figure Christmas is an idea - since words are verbal symbols that represent different things to different people - we use the symbol year round. In March it could be a new pair of boots - "Merry Christmas Hon!" Or in July it could be a new straw hat - "Merry Christmas Hon!" and even in the month in question yes it can happen. So my Partner and I have taken the symbol and integrated it year round. We recognize what gives us pleasure and ignore that which we could choose to take offensively but don't.

Glad to have you back Spaw. For a bit there I thought you had a lobotomy or something.

And here in the states we have 12 holidays - Heh heh heh - lazy colonials anyway!

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas
From: CapriUni
Date: 11 Jan 02 - 05:17 PM

But Spaw --

"Whatevertafuck 12-_____" would be a real headache for the song writers out there. I mean, it doesn't scan very well, and would be a real bitch to find a rhyme for.

How would we write Whatevertafuck carols?

Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas
From: catspaw49
Date: 11 Jan 02 - 05:28 PM

No need to change a thing Capri.....You just go on celebrating as usual with all the usual trimmings. While you have Christmas with all the Carols and trees and such, I can write my own stuff for "Aunt Marge Wipes Out the Piggly-Wiggly" Day! Neither of us will inflict pain on the other and and the only things that need to change are the stores and that sort of thing and the greeting cards. I can wish you a Merry Christmas by sending you a card that I simply fill in the blanks on with the number of Christmas. You can do the same for me by filling in the blank aftter finding the number of Aunt Marge Day in the Master List.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas
From: GUEST,Deda
Date: 11 Jan 02 - 05:33 PM

Also I think Hallmark would have a hard time coming up with cute rhyming jingles for "Whatevertafuck 12-_____" -- Let's see, "On the first day of Whatevertafuck 12-_____, my true love gave to me...."

Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas
From: SharonA
Date: 11 Jan 02 - 06:06 PM

Hmmm... let me try my hand at that Hallmark doggerel:

When dear Aunt Marge, who's plump and jiggly,
Goes and wipes the Piggly-Wiggly,
"Have a great..." she's sure to say
"...Whatevertafuck 12-__ Day!"

or

"Whatevertafuck you do, my friend,
Whatevertafuck you say,
You know I'll wish for you the best
Whatevertafuckin' day!"

Yeah, I could see that on a card with an illo of a disgustingly cute kitten!

Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas
From: SharonA
Date: 11 Jan 02 - 06:11 PM

...or

"Although I know the f-word doesn't pass your lips – no, never! –
Go have the best Whatevertafuck 6-9B2 Day ever!"

Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas
From: catspaw49
Date: 11 Jan 02 - 06:25 PM

Sharon, you are now in charge of the "Song &Greeting Card Division" of The International Holiday Registry.....and I never heard anything but groundhog, rarely even woodchuck. Here it's generally pronounced "grounnawg."

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas
From: Jeri
Date: 11 Jan 02 - 06:34 PM

My mother hung those little birds you can buy at crafts stores on the tree one Christmas. (She also hung the real Christmas ornaments on the roots of a tree that had blown over in a storm an crashed through her roof one Aug. I have newspaper photographs to prove it.) Mind you, this insanity was perfectly intentional on her part.

My guess is that people, including family members, may be a lot more polite if they think you're about to go over the edge.

Birds belong in trees anyway, and would be a sign of the coming spring. Maybe you could decorate some eggs and make ornaments. (Yes, Mom did that, too.) Maybe you could start a tradition of family members supplying handmade ornaments, either decorative or symbolic of something important to them.

Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas
From: SharonA
Date: 11 Jan 02 - 06:35 PM

Spaw, thanks for the honor!
What fortune! What luck!
What more can I say but:
Whatevertafuck!!!

;^)

Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas
From: GUEST,Conán
Date: 11 Jan 02 - 10:33 PM

Why is it that not one contributor even attempted to respond to Jimmy C's thoughts as a Christian ?
Were they too sincere ? Were they suspect just because they came from a believer?
I should have thought that his opinions, above any others, should have been treated with more respect. Had a Musulman or a Hebrew voiced sincere doubts about attempts to de-religionise*their* particular celebratory days, I'd bet my life they would have had more than a plethora of conciliatory and sympathetic supporters.
It is becoming increasingly clear that one is free to believe anything or nothing in today's Western Society with one major proviso - IT MUST NOT BE CHRISTIAN !
All I can do is pray for the poor benighted individuals who feel that *my* religious beliefs in some way threaten *them*.
Conan

Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas
From: CapriUni
Date: 11 Jan 02 - 11:14 PM

Guest, Conan:

I responded to Jimmy C.'s post... I said I agreed with him.

Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 12 Jan 02 - 01:08 AM

Celebrate Saturnalia...many kindred Mudcatters do the same

Truthfuly ... most conservative Christians would rather not have you profaning their celebration...and most pagan's want no connection to a redeamer.

We can both share similar dates.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas
From: CapriUni
Date: 12 Jan 02 - 01:32 AM

Oh, Gargoyle, I agree.

I try never to profane anyone's religion. I sincerely wish all Christians a deeply meaningful and sacred Christmas, and I accept all wishes to me for a "Merry Christmas" as easily as I accept a hug (And I take hugs like I take my chocolate -- you can never have too much ;-)).

Just because I celebrate my winter holiday at the same time as Christmas doesn't mean that I intend to denigrate Christmas at all... After all, there are occassions when Chanukah and Christmas overlap (rare, but I remember it happening a few times), without there being the sense that one holiday is trying replace another. I don't see why there should be the fear that Yule is.

Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas
From: Ebbie
Date: 13 Jan 02 - 03:12 AM

Mrrzy, this is what you said you want: entire-family holiday. Why not call it that? EFH, perhaps pronounced Effa or EPHA. Lots of good ideas available on decorations if the family brainstorms. Hey, you could even have a tree and hang pictures of the extended family on the branches, perhaps with the matriarch or patriarch on the top.

Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 Jan 02 - 04:37 AM

Call it a Circle of Life Celebration and decorate with symbols of each family member's beliefs.

We've always used cranberries, paper chains, clip-on craft birds, cardboard stars covered in tinfoil, ribbons and bows, glass icicles, bells, and other non-religious stuff to decorate our tree, plus stars, moons, suns, and music symbols. I use a lot of purple and green to get away from the usuall red and green.

One thing no one has mentioned is what I see as a distinction between "religion" and "spiritualty." Mostly we celebrate in a spiritual way, much as others have noted, reminding ourselves first and foremost that it is a time for family to get together and express their gratitude and love for one another and to have fun together.

BTW, there is an old folk story in the same book from which I got Golden Cobwebs, which you may have heard on Ron's Christmas show. It is Why The Evergreens Keep Their Leaves in Winter. I will post it, sometime, but the gist is a small bird was injured and couldn't fly south for the winter, so it went from tree to tree asking for shelter. The evergreens were the only ones to respond with kindness, sheltering and feeding the little bird throughout the winter. At that point, they were deemed worthy of keeping their leaves year round.

In the old days out West, at least in Wyoming, Thanksgiving was the biggest holiday for get-togethers. The weather was generally still somewhat safe for travel then, so people would come in from the ranches or over to someone else's ranch and have a big whoop-ti-do. By Christmas-time, they were all snowed in and kept home tending livestock, etc. until the Big Thaw in late Spring. Winter lasts a long time in Wyoming.:-)

Conversely, when we moved east and I got to know my in-laws better, their big tradition was to all get together on New Year's day at Roger's mom's house. As they were all grown and married, she felt they should all spend Christmas with their own families and never expected them to come over then. On NYD, she cooked up a storm and everyone had a blast.

Mark Clark, thanks for the wonderful link. That reminds me, I usually use a lot of incense and candles, too, plus I always have a few crystals hanging around, they pick up the lights so beautifully.

Mrrzy...it will be interesting to hear how this goes for you. Thanks for an itneresting *read.* Oh, btw, everyone, I remember Mrzzy's gender!!**BG**

katlaughing

Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas
From: catspaw49
Date: 13 Jan 02 - 07:25 AM

Entire Family Holiday? Circle of Life Celebration?

.....and I suppose you actually believe that those are better than Whatevertafuck 12-261? Hmmph!

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas
From: wysiwyg
Date: 13 Jan 02 - 08:23 AM

Spaw, Sharon can direct us in craft activities designing those cards, at the Center.

Conan, several active and often-vocal Christians posted in this thread. Mudcat has been around this pole, beginning from many directions, many, many times. By now it is occasionally possible to have a discussion that looks at specific things in a focused way. Responses of friendship and tolerance are as valid as the post you reference. And a lack of response to any single post does not mean, at all, that it was not heard and valued.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 13 Jan 02 - 09:03 AM

Respect has to go both ways. I happen to love Jesus Christ, to be real straightforward about it. I don't know what I'd do without him in my life. I happen to love many dear friends who are Atheists. We respect each other for who we are. Truth is, everyone has faith in something, even if its just that the sun is going to rise tomorrow. I respect anyone who is trying to live an honest, loving life. I have family members who are atheists, and I love them just as much as those who believe in Jesus Christ as their personal savior. I also have family members who are Muslim. It's hard enough making it through your days sometimes, without trying to deny someone whatever they need to do it. I pray for those who don't believe in God, not because I feel superior, or am offended by their lack of belief. I don't pray that they be more like me. I pray that they become the person they have the potential to be, and that they find joy in doing it. We all need all the help we can get.
So, why aren't more serious comments responded to, and flip, humorous ones go back and forth forever? Because most people come to Mudcat to find music, or just have a good time. Both valid reasons. When someone posts a problem, like slipping into a depression, we're all there to try to lend a hand. That seems a good way to run this place... I think Max and Joe do a fine job on running it. For someone who wants to have a more serious discussion, or just share experiences of faith, we can always leave a message, or communicate through e-mail.
I DON'T expect anyone to respond to this. It's been a good discussion and people have said what they honestly believe. Even with tongue in cheek. Good.
Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas
From: CapriUni
Date: 13 Jan 02 - 01:25 PM

". It's been a good discussion and people have said what they honestly believe. Even with tongue in cheek. "

And the challenge is to say what you believe with your tongue in cheek, and not bite your tongue... luckily, we're all typing ;-)

:::Ducking and running:::

Seriously, though, one of my favorite quotes on the value of religious diversity dates from way before Political Correctness became trendy:

It is reasonable that whatever each of us worships is really to be considered one and the same. We gaze up at the same stars, the sky covers us all, the same universe compasses us. What does it matter what practical systems we adopt in our search for the truth. Not by one avenue only can we arrive at so tremendous a secret.

Quintus Aurelius Symmachus (A.D. c. 340-c. 402), Roman senator. Letter, written 384, to the Christian Emperor Valentinian II, pleading for the continuation of pagan ceremonies (published in Finley Hooper and Matthew Schwartz, Roman Letters: History from a Personal Point of View, ch. 10, 1991). [*]

Really, if there really is only one God, then surely all acts of love, kindness, mercy and justice would be acceptable to Him (Her? The Divine is beyond gender, but our language isn't) regardless of the words we use to describe them to ourselves... in other words: "What that dud Quintus said."

[*]Copyright information:

The Columbia Dictionary of Quotations is licensed from Columbia University Press. Copyright © 1993 by Columbia University Press. All rights reserved.

Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas
From: Amos
Date: 13 Jan 02 - 02:40 PM

Seems like they had a better brand of Senator in their Empite than we do in ours, eh?

A

Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas
From: CapriUni
Date: 13 Jan 02 - 11:20 PM

I dunno about that, Amos... this Quintus guy might have been just as rare than as he would be today.... I don't know if he ever got reelected...

I don't think any of our current senetors think of the "big picture" in cosmic terms.

But that's thread drift...

Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 Jan 02 - 11:37 PM

That is well and good for those who believe in some sort of diety, Capri. Meaning no disrespect, just an observation. Love reading such ancient words. Thanks for posting.

Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Jan 02 - 08:23 AM

Just a sudden flash of inspiration (Careful - I need to lie down in a minute...) When Gnome the Younger #1 (Andrew - Brought up Catholic, of Russian Orthodox and Cossack decent.) married to his now missus (Lee - good Jewish upbringing - still sticks to certain bits) Neither particulary wanted a civic ceremony as they felt these were a bit austere. They compromised on a Unitarian service. It consisted of bits of both customs and was a really beutiful experience. Everyone on both sides seemed to be happy with the idea - even my Dad who is a real Christian traditionalist and still Russian Orthodox at heart!

I could be wrong (usualy am!) But I understand that the Unitarian faith acknowledges the existance of Christ (and happily accepts the prophets of other religions) but does not believe in Christ as part of the 'Holy Trinity' and therefore is not Christian by the standard definitions.

Anyone know if it is worth more investigation? I would be interested as well - particularly if it means I can celebrate even more;-)

Cheers

Dave the Gnome

Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas
From: mack/misophist
Date: 14 Jan 02 - 10:28 AM

In response to Dave the Gnome, a Unitarion minister once told me one could be a good Unitarian and an Athiest, both.

Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas
From: Mrrzy
Date: 14 Jan 02 - 11:03 AM

Guest Conan, I think the general response to Jimmy C's wasn't Let's ignore this, it's that it isn't relevant to THIS thread. I am not forced to celebrate either Ramadan or Hanukkah the way I have Christmas shoved down my throat, as it feels to me sometimes, living in the USA. So I have no issue with the way Ramadan and Hanukkah are celebrated here, since they are irrelevant to the problem I posted about, which was getting away from the Christianity and still having a midwinter family holiday on Dec. 25th, since that is the day we all have off from work or school. I am NOT pushing for Ramadan and Hanukkah or Kwanzaa or even a pagan Solstice or other non-monotheistic celebrations being as publicized and ubiquitous as Christmas; I'm trying to get the religious aspects of Christmas to be as low-key as those other holidays are, or in my family, eliminated as irrelevant to anything WE celebrate on that day. Even the one Christian niece doesn't celebrate the Birth of Jesus on that day, she celebrates family and love and everything we do. Should she want to pray or anything we wouldn't stop her, but if she does so far she must be doing it in private (very polite of her but not required by us), since I've never seen her do it.

And about that Quintus quote, an atheist friend of mine once told me that he figured, if he were wrong about the existence of god(s), then he still wasn't worried, as he was living a good life and doing good deeds, and that would certainly be good enough for any god(s) whether you worshipped them or not. If not then that god or those gods aren't worth worshipping at all. So why worship? Seems very similar...

Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas
From: SharonA
Date: 14 Jan 02 - 11:05 AM

Susan (WYSIWYG): LOL!

Mrrzy: Over the weekend, I remembered something told to me by a Jewish boyfriend I once had, with whom I lived for two years: He said he felt threatened by me because I have a lot of Hallmark ornaments (Christmas and other) that I displayed in what was then "our" place, and because my brother has two Norman Rockwell prints on the wall at his place. He said these things reminded him of the persecution of Jews by Christians. I said he was being oversensitive since (a) though I was raised by fundamentalist Protestants to be a hard-ass Christian, I've rejected that plan for my life and don't worship Christ or consider myself a Christian at all; (b) far from persecuting him, I accepted him into my home to live with me; and (c) though Rockwell's artwork and humor appeal to me, I didn't and don't display any of his prints myself!! I argued in vain that since my embarrassingly overly-cutesy figurines didn't symbolize anything to me, my display of them shouldn't be taken as a threat to him.

Just one of the many little (and not-so-little) differences we had that eventually broke up the relationship!