Fakelore

Subject: Fakelore
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 11:25 AM

Over the years, I've noticed that explanations of where odd phrases originated are more products of a lively imagination than of historic or etymological research (brass monkey, posh, Jimmie Crack Corn etc.)
    As with most bits of creativity, it's probably worth collecting these.

I submit one, as solicit others.

In the 16th and 17th centuries, everything had to be transported
by ship. It was also before commercial fertilizer's invention, so large shipments of manure were common. It was shipped dry, because
in dry form it weighed a lot less than when wet, but once water (at sea) hit it, it not only became heavier, but the process of fermentation began again, of which a by-product is methane gas.
As the stuff was stored below decks in bundles you can see what
could (and did) happen. Methane began to build up below decks and the
first time someone came below at night with a lantern, BOOOOM!

Several ships were destroyed in this manner before it was determined just what was happening. After that, the bundles of manure were
always stamped with the term "Ship High In Transit" on them which meant for the sailors to stow it high enough off the lower decks so that any water that came into the hold would not touch this volatile cargo and start the production of methane. Thus evolved the term "S.H.I.T," which has come down through the centuries and is in use to this very day.

Subject: RE: Fakelore
From: Pied Piper
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 11:56 AM

That's a good one, bollox but good.
As believable as many I've read here before.
All the best PP

Subject: RE: Fakelore
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 12:25 PM

Untrue things widely believed might be considered "fakelore," such as the folk etymology you post; I'd add three:

-The acronym for "Fornication Under Consent of the King" does not provide our earthy word for the conjugal act. The word's recorded long before that that modern English phrase would've made sense;

-Posh did not stand for "Port Out, Starboard Home;"

-"Tip" did not come from a basket labelled "to insure promptness"

But to qualify as folklore rather than mere errors, I'd think the beliefs have to be factoids that are useful in supporting some worldview:

-"Ring Around the Rosey" has nothing to do with the Black Death (though I recognize there's a number of long threads on the subject, and mine is a partisan position); this is useful for suggesting that children are wiser, more aware and resilient than we give them credit for, or that their games have a deeper historical memory than we might credit (which things I believe to be true; I reject the equation of "myth" and "folklore" with "falsehood");

-There never was any such thing as a "droit du seigneur" or "ius primae noctis"; there may be a hint of such a thing in Gilgamesh (5000 years old); the democratic myth was fostered by Voltaire and Mark Twain;

-Einstein did not flunk math, but the story reminds us that institutions do not always deal well with the gifted.

Richard Dorson, who coined the term "fakelore," meant something a little different, and I don't mention this to be picky or pedantic, but it might make a worthwhile subject of conversation in itself. Fakelore occurs when anonymous mass-culture enterprises co-opt folk materials and sell them back to people, or invent "traditions" out of whole cloth (Paul Bunyan). Some country music surely fits this, though we'd want to be careful to acknowledge that living traditions are dynamic, and should be expected to exhibit growth, change and adaptation. And sometimes, commercially-generated stuff can enter the folk, and begin to be transmitted and adapted outside of these commercial and institutional contexts (Montgomery Ward's "Rudolf the Red-Nosed Reindeer" for example).

Best,

Adam

Subject: RE: Fakelore
From: Sorcha
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 12:52 PM

There is the one about railroad gauges/road width being related to Roman chariot wheels.........

Subject: RE: Fakelore
From: Genie
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 12:58 PM

Dick, FWIW, I'd be inclined do discredit the etymology of "shit" that you mentioned above, anyway, if for no other reason that the English word is so close to the German "scheit." The story doesn't seem to fit the German, and when there's such similarity between German and English words, the German usually came first.

Another persistent bit of historical mythology is that George Washington had wooden teeth.

Genie

Subject: RE: Fakelore
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 01:28 PM

False teeth o.k. maybe not wooden, but early false teeth anyway!

I searched "Snopes" first with no joy!

Subject: RE: Fakelore
From: Kim C
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 01:42 PM

S*** and f*** both go back a VERY long way.

The German word is Scheisse. ;)

Subject: RE: Fakelore
From: Bat Goddess
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 02:01 PM

And the Norwegian is pronounced the same as English but spelled "skitt".

Linn

Subject: RE: Fakelore
From: Strupag
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 02:18 PM

Now that reminds me!

I heard that the word kaki which describes a type of soldiers clothing material came from gaelic speaking soldier's description of the colour of the material.
The gaelic word for shit is "Cac" pronounced Kak.
Incidently, in Scotland, we almost always add an "e" making it shite.

Subject: RE: Fakelore
From: MMario
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 02:27 PM

Khaki-Etymology: Hindi khAkI dust-colored, from khAk dust, from Persian;
Date: 1857

Subject: RE: Fakelore
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 02:54 PM

Gaelic cac does seem to have entered English, though in another context, as cack or kack; still meaning "shit"; as in the common expression "cack-handed": clumsy; left- or shit-handed.

Subject: RE: Fakelore
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 03:06 PM

We are still speculating about "Jim (Jimmie) Crack Corn. In recent threads or additions thereto:
1. Gimmie crack corn- give me the corn likker. Or Jim crack corn- drinking the ambrosial essence of corn.
2, Jim crack corn- the common procedure on farms of cracking corn kernels for chickens and other livestock; or the product of corn shellers, commonly used for preparing corn in the old days.
3. Jim crack corn- gossiping, telling jokes.
4. Jim crack corn- loafing or otherwise fiddling around.
5. Jim crack corn- a minstrel or Negro dance step.
6. Just a nonsensical introduction to a humorous song.

O, which side(s) are you on?

Then the speculations about the origin of Dixie, in "Dixie's Land." Also discussed at great length in threads here.

Subject: RE: Fakelore
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 03:29 PM

Malcolm is the Spanish word for shit. Widespread as "caca" in the southwestern U.S. Naturally, the word cacafuego (literally spitfire) means a braggart.
The OED quotes "cack" as a verb in English, to shit, from the 1400s. Often spelled cake. It attributes its origin to old German.
Interesting how German-English, Gaelic, and Spanish come together on this. Does anyone know the Latin vulgar word for it?

Subject: RE: Fakelore
From: Rapparee
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 06:56 PM

Out of curiousity, would Margaret Mead's "research" into Samoan culture now be considered fakelore?

Subject: RE: Fakelore
From: Cluin
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 07:16 PM

Then there's the one about the origin of "freeze the balls off a brass monkey" that supposedly refers to iron cannon balls and the brass holder that they were stacked in on deck of the old sailing ships.

Subject: RE: Fakelore
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 07:25 PM

Malcolm, I left out a word- just noticed on going back to the thread. My prostrate apologies for the gaffe. Sentence should have read- Malcolm, "Caca" is the Spanish word for shit.

Subject: RE: Fakelore
From: Peter T.
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 07:31 PM

Pete Seeger chopping Dylan's electric cable with an ax. (Though there are admittedly 30 different versions of the story).
yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Fakelore
From: Sorcha
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 07:33 PM

That would have been just too good, Peter. Too bad it didn't happen.

Subject: RE: Fakelore
From:
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 07:48 PM

Cluin. That one is true.

Subject: RE: Fakelore
From: Cluin
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 07:50 PM

Aw, c'mon George... you can do better than that.

Subject: RE: Fakelore
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 07:57 PM

Myth: The word "crap" derives from the name of Thomas Crapper, the London plumber who invented the flush toilet.

Truth: See http://www.snopes.com/business/names/crapper.htm.

Subject: RE: Fakelore
From: Cluin
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 08:05 PM

Well, let's go back to Snopes.com again...

The Brass Monkey thingy

I knew it! It just sounded made-up to me. You can't bullshit a bullshitter.

Subject: RE: Fakelore
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 08:11 PM

You gave me pause for thought for a moment there, Q, but I'm glad to know that you meant what I guessed you meant! I was also guessing about a Gaelic loan into English for cack, having only quite small dictionaries to hand at home; I ought to have remembered the Middle English. I believe that Latin caco would be the immediate source of the Spanish word; but Sanscrit also has something like caka, so probably most western language groups have forms of the word more-or-less independently from a notional "Indo-European" root.

Subject: RE: Fakelore
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 08:24 PM

The word billy for a pot came from Billy's Tea. Not true, billy was used for a pot many years before. Discussed in a thread on tea recently.
My grandma's from the dark ages of my childhood- Cold water will close your pores. Sulfur and molasses is a springtime tonic. Night air is poisonous. You can identify an Italian by the smell of garlic.

Subject: RE: Fakelore
From: Abby Sale
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 11:00 PM

Margaret Mead's "research" into Samoan culture now be considered fakelore?

According to my anthropology classes in the early 60's this was an example of a deliberate scientific fraud. There are many reasons for such...money, prestige, religious charlitanery, etc, but her reason seems to have been purely the furtherance of her personal socio-political notions. Also to further the myth (fakescience) of psychocultural science.

She had a reputation for un-niceness in a number of ways.

Subject: RE: Fakelore
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Feb 03 - 06:53 AM

The origins of fok music and morris dance in general. We all know they were invented by white middle class professionals in the 1960's to give us some form of identity;-)

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: Fakelore
From: GUEST,John Hernandez
Date: 04 Feb 03 - 12:16 PM

Two years ago when I met Pete Seeger in Hartford, Connecticut, I asked him directly about the about the incident with Dylan at Newport in 1965. Pete answered that all he was trying to do was get the person at the sound control board to turn down the volume of the instruments because they were so loud you couldn't hear the words.

Subject: RE: Fakelore
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 04 Feb 03 - 03:02 PM

Henry VIII wrote Greensleeves. This myth brought up again today. See threads 3324, 6015. 31121

Subject: RE: Fakelore
From: Cluin
Date: 04 Feb 03 - 03:10 PM

But didn't he write "Pasttime with Good Company"?

Subject: RE: Fakelore
From: Hester
Date: 04 Feb 03 - 04:57 PM

>>>Margaret Mead's "research" into Samoan culture now be considered fakelore?<<<

>>>According to my anthropology classes in the early 60's this was an example of a deliberate scientific fraud. There are many reasons for such...money, prestige, religious charlitanery, etc, but her reason seems to have been purely the furtherance of her personal socio-political notions. Also to further the myth (fakescience) of psychocultural science. She had a reputation for un-niceness in a number of ways. <<<

Hi, Abby:

In my Anthropology classes in the 80s and 90s, the faults of Mead's work were put in a different context: her relative naivity (she was only 24 when she went to Samoa); her eagerness to please her mentors, Boaz & Benedict; her informants' eagerness to please her; and her sincere wish to both dispel pejorative notions of "the primitive" and to provide a useful framework for understanding Western intergenerational strife.

Indeed, most of the "un-niceness" in the controversy was attributed by my [male] professors to her critic Derek Freeman, who waited 'til the old girl was dead before attacking her work.

For the most part, Mead's work was seen by my professors are no worse than that of most other scholars in her field at that time. Anthropology was still a very young discipline then, and the methodologies and analytical criteria were yet to be rigorously tested and questioned.

Cheers, Hester

Subject: RE: Fakelore
From: Hester
Date: 04 Feb 03 - 05:05 PM

Here's an article that suggests Freeman's continuing critique of Margaret Mead is not well-founded:

Margaret Mead, Derek Freeman, and the issue of evolution.

Cheers, Hester

Subject: RE: Fakelore
From: Kim C
Date: 04 Feb 03 - 05:14 PM

For years, we had all heard the story of the Newlywed Game.

Bob: Where's the strangest place you've ever made whoopee?

Guest (answers vary depending on who tells the story): In the butt.

And for years, we were told this wasn't so, it was just a rumor, an urban myth. Bob Eubanks said so himself.

Last year, one of the networks ran a special on great TV bloopers. Ben Stein and Bob Eubanks were two of the hosts. During the entire program, Ben goaded Bob about this mythological episode, saying "we're gonna show it we're gonna show it" and Bob kept saying, "no way, it never happened."

Well.

The last clip was from the Newlywed Show. And sure enough... Bob asked, where's the strangest place you ever made whoopee? And one woman looked at him quizzically and said, "I dunno... in the ass, I guess." (of course they bleeped out "ass")

So there it was. It really happened.

Bob said in all those years, he must have just forgotten...

Subject: RE: Fakelore
From: Peter T.
Date: 04 Feb 03 - 05:23 PM

As I say, there are many variants of the Dylan story, including the one from the horse's mouth.
yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Fakelore: Giving the Finger
From: Hester
Date: 04 Feb 03 - 05:24 PM

As a Robin Hood enthusiast with a background in Linguistics, one of my favourite spurious folk etymologies is this hilariously clever one:

Giving the Finger

"Before the Battle of Agincourt in 1415, the French, anticipating victory over the English, proposed to cut off the middle finger of all captured English soldiers. Without the middle finger it would be
impossible to draw the renowned English longbow and therefore a soldier would be incapable of fighting in the future. This
famous weapon was made of the native English Yew tree, and the act of drawing the longbow was known as "plucking the yew" (or "pluck
yew"). Much to the bewilderment of the French, the
English won a major upset and began mocking the French by waving their middle finger at the defeated French, saying, "See, we can still
pluck yew! "PLUCK YEW!" Since 'pluck yew' is rather difficult to say, the difficult consonant cluster at the beginning has gradually changed to a labiodental fricative 'F', and thus the words often used
in conjunction with the one-finger-salute are mistakenly thought
to have something to do with an intimate encounter. It is also because of the pheasant feathers on the arrows used with the longbow that the symbolic gesture is known as "giving the bird".

Cheers, Hester
P.S. My archer friends tell me that one glaring error in the account is that English longbows were generally made of Spanish yew, not English yew, as the native variety had too many knots to make it suitable. And, as a linguist, I would point out that native English speakers have absolutely no difficulty pronouncing the consonant cluster "pl".

Subject: RE: Fakelore
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 04 Feb 03 - 05:35 PM

Naive anthropologists have been taken in by their informants in several cases. The person being interviewed may have been trying to please, to mislead and cover up, or made up a good yarn for the hell of it. "Unlettered savages" told stories for the entertainment of their fellows and some were pretty good at it.

How many old folk singers lied when they told the song collector that they got a song from their grand mammy who got it from her grand, etc.? Unless there is verification from other sources, their story is just just that.

Subject: RE: Fakelore
From: greg stephens
Date: 04 Feb 03 - 05:35 PM

The problem with that is that the English gesture involves two fingers, not one.

Subject: RE: Fakelore
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 04 Feb 03 - 06:11 PM

Two fingers? I'll drink to that.

Subject: RE: Fakelore
From: Gareth
Date: 04 Feb 03 - 07:11 PM

Errrr !!! - Obviously some of yew are still affected with "Fakelore"

Agincourt ? Cressy ? Poitiers ?

??? English Archers ???? English Yew ????

Us South Welsh have some national standards - And that included fighting for whoever promised the best pay, and opportunity for loot, and, ahem, other fringe benefits - we did not waste our efforts on burning, unlike the Vikings.

Litle known fact - Glendwr and his occupying army was driven out of South Wales, Morganw and Sengenydd, by the South Wales Archers.

Gareth - Who has all his fingers !!!!!!!!!!!!

PS Please excuse the linguistic pun.

Subject: RE: Fakelore
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 04 Feb 03 - 09:21 PM

The early 20th century folksong collectors sometimes got caught out, too. Many of them thought it only fair to pay their sources for their time and trouble; but not all of them had the social skills needed to make friends of the old buggers at the same time. Cecil Sharp was good at it, and, though he rarely had any spare money, would send little presents of tobacco and sometimes copies of a book in which an informant's song had been published; that sort of thing. He was remembered with affection by many of his sources long after his death, and nobody took the piss out of him.

I think it was Dr George Gardiner, though, who paid on a "per song" basis; and realised, after a while, that some of the old fellows were making stuff up when they ran out of genuine songs. He was quite upset by that; but many of them were dirt poor (and living in workhouses, which weren't abolished till a bit later) and you can't blame them for being a bit inventive in the circumstances.

It still happens, though nowadays the misinformation tends to be spread either by people whose memories aren't too good ("my old sainted mother, god bless her, used to sing that one to me when I was a wee child back in the old country"; of a song written ten years or so ago) or by performers who have got used to being looked up to and tell lies in order to bolster their importance ("my old sainted mother, god bless her, used to sing that one to me when I was a wee child back in the old country"; I can think of one glaring example discussed here a few times, though I've promised to leave that one alone until the person in question is dead, as apparently he takes badly to being challenged) or by performers who will say anything that pops into their wee heads in order to make their act more entertaining (the Fureys, for example, will trot out any old nonsense if they think it will go down well; which would be fine except that people actually believe them).

Regrettably, people will tell lies, and some will think themselves clever when others, who have no particular reason to disbelieve them, accept the lie as truth. Folklore studies are full of examples of that. The trouble is that the lie is often more interesting and romantic than the truth (jacobite songs, for one) and few people enjoy having their romantic illusions shattered.

Subject: RE: Fakelore
From: GUEST,fox4zero
Date: 05 Feb 03 - 12:01 AM

Hester

That is the funniest thing I have read in ages! Talk about LOL!

Larry

Subject: RE: Fakelore
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 05 Feb 03 - 03:40 AM

The Latin word is cacare, to defecate. See "World Wide Words" for more details, and for any other etymological conundrums that may be bothering you.

For what it's worth, words were very seldom coined from acronyms before the 20th century.

Steve
P.S. Sorry about all the big words: I'm having one of my sesquipedalian days.

Subject: RE: Fakelore
From: hacksawbob
Date: 05 Feb 03 - 08:14 AM

Always known Kahki to be imported via the British army in India from a local dialect (not sure which one.)
Shit'ucks or shite'ucks is a curse that my dad, a British army man, frequently used. It is apparantly a bizare rhyming slang twist on Kite Hawks, a bird of prey found in the Far East. These were apparantly not liked for their stealing of food.
Having lived in Hong Kong for some time I have not once known one of these fish-hunting birds of prey to come within half a mile of me, let alone steal food like a seagull might. What is more strange is that my dad found it far more acceptable to say Shitocks in front of his kids rather than the inoffensive Kite Hawks. Another one he has taken to of late is "Fester me Doglets!"
BTW Don't let the truth spoil a good story.

Subject: RE: Fakelore
From: Nerd
Date: 05 Feb 03 - 11:57 AM

I remember a story about Peggy Seeger hearing someone in Ireland humming "The Shoals of Herring" (which Ewan MacColl wrote. When she asked about it she was told it was a very old Irish air called "The Shores of Erin." I don't know if this is true, but it's just the sort of thing Malcolm is talking about. I've also noticed that the Fureys in the 1960s and 70s tended to view everything through the lens of the Irish/English conflict, proposing some pretty ridiculous origins for their songs. Haven't seen them in ages, nor have I read any sleeve notes of theirs...

Subject: RE: Fakelore
From: Schantieman
Date: 05 Feb 03 - 12:08 PM

Looks like we're drifting into the mondegreen thread!

Steve

Subject: RE: Fakelore
From: Hester
Date: 05 Feb 03 - 02:44 PM

Greg wrote, re: the "pluck yew" gag:

>>>The problem with that is that the English gesture involves two fingers, not one. <<<

Not to mention that you need both those fingers to draw the bowstring, not just the middle one.

Cheers, Hester

Subject: RE: Fakelore
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 05 Feb 03 - 03:15 PM

Just realizd that the American "two fingers" may not be known in England. Two fingers means a shot of whiskey (about 1 1/2 ounces).

Subject: RE: Fakelore
From: Strupag
Date: 05 Feb 03 - 06:39 PM

I was citing Cac/ Kaki as an example of Fakelore.
Anyone I was really dissapointed to learn the truth of Thomas Crapper.
Now where's these carrots? It's dark here tonight!

Subject: RE: Fakelore
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 06 Feb 03 - 03:22 AM

Re: crap[per]. if it's any consolation ... "crap" is Old English (Anglo-Saxon) for "chaff", which is the stuff you throw away after separating grain from cereals; by extension, it can mean any form of rubbish/garbage. I think "Crapper" came to be synonymous with "lavatory" ["bathroom", if you're sensitive!] because Mr C's name was blazoned on the cisterns that he made; the same way we can say "the hoover", "the frigidaire", "the ford". Not sure if that's metonymy ... but, anyway, "crap" "is what you do in" or "what goes in" the crapper; and the "rubbish" sense of "crap" had already grown to include the "shit" sense.

Looks like another S-day!

Steve

Subject: RE: Fakelore
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 06 Feb 03 - 12:08 PM

There are still toilets made by the Crappers in use to this day, though they're getting rather old.

Subject: RE: Fakelore
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 06 Feb 03 - 01:24 PM

Crap: from old Dutch krap. Madder, especially the commercial product obtained by grinding the inner part of the root. =French crappe, dating from 1513. English use in print from 1721, discussing crap madder production from 1676 to 1679.
Crap: thieves cant for the gallows Vaux, Flash Dictionary, 1812. Hence, to hang.
Crap: Scottish for crop.
Crap, obsolete Scottish, to creep.
Crap, to defecate, from 1898 in print, English origin.
Crap: rubbish, first in print in 1898, Wright in English Dialect Dictionary.
Craps, crap: a "table game," 1885. (Dice gambling to most of us).
Crap: carnival talk for a cheap prize. Origin unknown.

So, Steve Parkes, are you also guilty of perpetuating Fakelore?
Maybe not. Where did you find the use of crap for chaff? Chaff from Old English ceof, from old German kaf. Caff (chaff) used for rubbish 1400 or before in England.
Chaff: light, jesting talk, from about 1800.
Chaffer: merchandise, cheap goods. English usage from 1225 in print. Now could other words have developed from this?

Neither the OED or Webster's has crap defined as rubbish before 1846, and that is only in the American Webster's.
But-
Crappy, rubbishy: from Swell's Night Guide, 1846. "Which of us had hold of the crappy end of the stick?" This is American usage, but where did it come from? Not likely from madder, and predates the crapper.
These definitions (chaffer, crappy) suggest a line of usage not yet recognized by the word sleuths. The old Scottish word crap for crop suggests another possibility. Would a "bad crap" develop into a word for rubbish?

OK, boring to most people, but I like word history.