BS: Dyslexia

Subject: RE: BS: Dyslexia
From: Helen
Date: 13 Nov 04 - 07:51 AM

This was a thread I started a few years ago. We had some good discussions there but unfortunatley someonw decisded to close the thread. I don't know why.

BS: /OS: Any dyslexic 'Catters? (Like me)

Helen

Subject: RE: BS: Dyslexia
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 13 Nov 04 - 05:47 PM

Sir jOhn...we all love you....your spelling is of no real consequence but to a few narrow minded bigots who think everyone should come up to their own personal standards...whatever they think they are!!!!. They are no better than you in any way...only in their own heads. They think they are better educated or have learnt better than you but the human side of you that I have seen in real life and on here..outstrips them in every way...you deserve to be a Sir and they can go rot.
Best wishes.

Subject: RE: BS: Dyslexia
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 25 Nov 04 - 05:03 PM

and Virgin Cola.

Subject: RE: BS: Dyslexia
From: Raedwulf
Date: 25 Nov 04 - 06:01 PM

John - I wasn't going to respond (didn't seem to likely to lead to anything useful), but since the thread has resurfaced, I maintain that you have said somewhere (if I remember correctly, it was in chat & not directly to me (not least because we've never chatted directly) which makes it difficult to produce evidence) that you deliberately mis-spell (or deliberately don't check spelling, it amounts to the same) to annoy people. I'll back my memory against yours any day of the week.

Not unnaturally, I made 2 + 2 = 4. If you've said the above, & never said you were dyslexic (which fact you both admit & contradict after my post), are you really surprised? More to the point, how dare you go raving ape-shit over the fact that someone said you weren't? You concealed the fact, remember? So who's fault is it if someone draws the wrong conclusion, then?

You claim you don't care what anyone thinks of you & then use the best part of a dozen threads to childishly & rather pathetically abuse me, even going so far as to rake through my back posts to find a typo. I never I said I type perfectly. I do try to make the effort, though, which you, despite ample proof that you can spell when you bother, don't. And I will continue to maintain that you have admitted the same.

I've no idea as to the seriousness of your lately disclosed dyslexia, John. I do know that I've got two seriously dyslexic friends. One does very well, the other I only know about because she told me. Make of that what you will, I really don't care. But I still say that you've publicly said that there are times when you deliberately don't try.

No, I really don't care. I reply to you here because you chose to make a public reply to me (I'm not criticising that you did, though I don't think much of the way that you did). I have been told that you are a very nice, friendly, do-anything-for-anyone sort of bloke in real life. I've also been told that you're often/usually pissed as a fart when you post here (chat or thread). I don't know the truth of either statement. I only know that I, personally, find you, on Mudcat, to be a monumental, & frequently incoherent, pain-in-the-ass (I dare say you don't think much of me either, fair enough!). Which is one bloody good reason why I almost never respond to anything you post to! Again, make of that what you well. I'm sure you disagree (well, I would if I were you! ;-) ), I just hope you now have some idea why I posted what I originally did.

Now, if someone can explain why I responded to this thread in the first place... Cos I can't bloody well remember why!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Dyslexia
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 25 Nov 04 - 06:14 PM

Your talking shit again!
qoute="you use a dozen threads to abuse me"
never heard so much shit in all my life, this is the first and only thread i've ever mentioned you on or replied to!

And now your sudden;ly changing your tune, you start off saying
"John mispells words on purpose to piss people off" [see your first post to this thread]

you know say you might recall that i might have mentioned in the chat-room, whilst chatting to someone else, that i don't bother spell checking my posts!

I don't recall saying this, but even if I don't bother checking my posts, so fucking waht, is it really a big problem for you?

Yes, i picked up on your bad spelling in one of your posts, [ i clicked on your name, traced your recent postings and clicked at random, checked a few words against a dictionary]

If your going to comment on other peoples spelling, I suggest you check your own first, especially as your commenting on the fact that I don't check mine.

Anyway, a third of the worlds population don't know where their next meal is coming from, if all you can think about to moan at and comment on, is poor spelling from amember of an internet forum, i suggest you count yourself lucky.

Get a fucking life.

Subject: RE: BS: Dyslexia
From: Raedwulf
Date: 25 Nov 04 - 06:30 PM

Oh pardon me. I meant a dozen posts in this thread. I suppose I'm allowed to be human & make the occasional mistake, given that I've already confessed to being imperfect?

And as to the food & moaning, I commented on you (as far as I remember) once only ever on the public forum. If the world's starving are so important to you that you introduce them to this, how come you spent (I went & counted 'em 'specially for you, John) exactly one dozen posts in this thread calling me names? Why weren't you spending your time solving the world's problems & saving the starving, instead of wasting effort on me, John? Fool, hypocrite, idiot, or waste of space?

Enough. I haven't changed my tune, I've no more time for you. I hope we pass each other in peace in future, if only for the sake of the users of this board.

Subject: RE: BS: Dyslexia
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 25 Nov 04 - 06:52 PM

Shut up.

Get it right or stay quiet.

Subject: RE: BS: Dyslexia
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 25 Nov 04 - 07:01 PM

PS-I did NOT spend a dozen posts in this thread [or any other] calling you names.
Count the names I called you, count the posts, [it's fairly easy if you try].

Subject: RE: BS: Dyslexia
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 25 Nov 04 - 07:24 PM

I have no problem with letters, I have trouble with numbers... they jump all over the place and I have to count really carefully... If I added up a column of figures three times, I'd have four answers.

No comments required.. just thought I'd share the fact that dyslexia isn't entirely confined to words and letters.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Dyslexia
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 25 Nov 04 - 07:31 PM

I get very discombobulated by numbers...but then i don't use them much. I haven't yet found a practical application for algebra...

Subject: RE: BS: Dyslexia
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 25 Nov 04 - 08:35 PM

I Just read the thread again!

i'm now ingoring raedwolf [he's a trubble making weirdo].

but Deep thought, -you mention Pavlov, did you study Psychology?
[I did, I studied BA [Hons] Psychology at Hull, PM me if you did.

Subject: RE: BS: Dyslexia
From: Bob Hitchcock
Date: 25 Nov 04 - 08:39 PM

Did you hear about the Dyslexic who walked into a bra?

Subject: RE: BS: Dyslexia
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 25 Nov 04 - 08:47 PM

Was it an alge-bra?

Subject: RE: BS: Dyslexia
From: Ebbie
Date: 25 Nov 04 - 09:58 PM

Bobert and Helen - probably among others - mentioned using aids to differentiate right from left. I'm not dyslexic as it happens, but I don't know how old I was before I stopped surreptitiously pressing my right hand to my leg to make sure I reached out with the 'right' hand. I don't know why it worked.

Subject: RE: BS: Dyslexia
From: Mudlark
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 01:35 AM

I'm sure Mark knows what he's talking about, but I've heard medical personnel using dyslexia for all kinds of mixups, i.e. direction-dyslexic, numbers-dyslexic, etc. So if those things aren't really dyslexia, is there some other name for them. I find measuring impossible, as well as interchanging letters, have to serrupticiously "write" with my left hand (being lefthanded) in order to tell left from right, have albsolutely no sense of direction, and can't hold even two or three numbers in my head, as in repreating a telephone number, or adding up a column of figures. It's a minor inconvenience at best, now that I've had so many years to get used to it.

By the way, Mark, how did you get on with the Exam?

Subject: RE: BS: Dyslexia
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 02:41 AM

Here are two webpages. The first is about a new treatment for Dyslexia which has had fantastic results, and the second is a Google page where you can click on several different websites about the new use of coloured lenses for Dyslexics. Both of these methods are changing people's lives.

Like anything else, having what some call a disablity, and others call a challenge, the choice of trying to find solutions is up to us.

I say, less arguing and name-calling, and more helpful words of information (thanks, Mark) and encouragement.

..xx..e



http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99993012



http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=Coloured+lenses+for+Dyslexia+Treatment&spell=1

Subject: RE: BS: Dyslexia
From: GUEST,SueB
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 03:00 AM

Thanks to Mark for his post. As parent of a dyslexic child, I've found out firsthand how much misinformation there is about dyslexia - I've had to wade through gobs and gobs of it. A lot of bunkum being sold as dyslexia cures, too, and a lot of money charged for it. Best book I've read on the subject is the one by Sally Shaywitz, M.D., called Overcoming Dyslexia.   BTW, Liz, I think term for what you describe is dyscalculia.

Subject: RE: BS: Dyslexia
From: dianavan
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 03:41 AM

As a mother of a severely, learning disabled child, I too had to wade through lots of misinformation. One of the things I learned was that it was a catch phrase. It actually means the inability to read which is ridiculous because even the mentally challenged can be taught to read.

So, if you have difficulty reading or writing you may have sequential errors, visual/spatial errors, auditory or visual memory difficulties, confusion with time and/or transitions, etc, etc, etc. Many of these 'problems' are maturational and given the right teaching methods, can be overcome.

The real problem occurs when there is an emotional overlay which prevents a person from learning coping mechanisms. The best way to combat this is to insure that a child knows that school is only a small part of life and that in the wider world, social skills, physical fitness and emotional well-being will serve you very well. Find out what interests the child and give them the opportunity to excel in something outside of school.

I think of all the time I worried about my son's future and now, at 32, he makes more money than I do and I'm at the end of my career. He's only beginning! He has people working for him that take care of all that "clerical shit" as he calls it and guess what - he is an avid reader and the most literate person in the family.

d

Subject: RE: BS: Dyslexia
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 04:36 AM

And I know that some of you are talking about children and Dyslexia, but I need to add that the two webpages I mentioned have been used with as many adults as with children, so even if you feel you've found lots of good ways of compensating over the years for how you've learned to help yourself, please know that IT'S NEVER TOO LATE to look around for some of the latest treatments.

There was one woman on the telly many months back, talking about using the second process of "reeducating her brain" through things like balance and juggling (sounds so strange, but these things really can help to "re-wire" the way our brains work) and she was in her 80s!

And just the other day, there was a boy on the telly talking about how much his reading had improved though the use of those coloured lenses.

Technology at it's best, IMHO.

..xx..e

Subject: RE: BS: Dyslexia
From: GUEST,SueB
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 12:54 PM

That's just the kind of pseudoscientific mumbo jumbo I'm talking about, Ellenpolly. Thanks to MRI's and new brain imaging techniques, we can see precisely what's going on in the brain when someone is reading, and can compare the differences in the brain activity between a fluent reader and a poor reader. The "juggling and balance" approach is based on the theory that dyslexics have a less permeable corpus callosum which impairs right brain-left brain interaction but can be somehow made more permeable by "brain gym" types of activity, like cross-crawling and juggling. Outdated hogwash, but it's still out there being pushed on the credulous, along with colored overlays, which may make reading more "comfortable" but have absolutely no effect on how and where the neurons are firing in your brain.

Subject: RE: BS: Dyslexia
From: LadyJean
Date: 27 Nov 04 - 02:01 AM

I have a learning disability.
In 1992, my mother was dying of cancer. She wanted to die at home, which meant I would be staying home and looking after her. I don't think it was what either of us really wanted. But it was what was best.
I don't know who told the hospital social worker that I was LD, but she got the idea I couldn't read, and decided mother should spend her last days in a nursing home. After all I couldn't read a phone book, or read the pill schedule.
I do just fine with the phone book, thank you. I read the pill schedule for the first couple of weeks, until I had it memorized. My only problem was that I couldn't pronounce the name of the stool softener. Neither could the visiting nurse, or the pharmacist. We all called them the big, brown, pills. It was a useful memonic.
I had one of Patrick O'Brian's books in my lap when the social worker talked to me. I'd still like to know what she thought I was doing with it. (I've read all 22 of the Aubrey/Maturin novels, and "The Golden Ocean".)
In high school, I delt with a youth pastor who decided I was retarded. It wouldn't have been quite so bad if he hadn't also decided that the best way to communicate with me was by shouting in my ear.
Again, I was going to a very good prep school, with a tough curriculum. I wonder what I thought I was doing there?
I am reluctant to tell people that I am L.D. because they decide, immediately, that I am either retarded, illiterate, or insane. I avoid anyone with a background in education or psychology, because they know all about my disability, and don't bother to learn anything about me.
Perhaps other people could d have experiences like mine and not become defensive. I'm a bit brittle on the subject, I suppose. But every now and again, my sister forgets herself and calls me a a spaz.

Subject: RE: BS: Dyslexia
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 27 Nov 04 - 02:30 AM

SueB, I have to bow to your greater knowledge on this subject, though I find it hard to discount all that I've seen and read. But you have been in the thick of it, and if you are working from a place of having actually followed through on seeing if these therapies work, and are convinced that they don't I would be the last person in the world to argue with you.

But I'm still a little surprised, especially about the coloured lenses, as I've read and talked with people who have known of this and known of those who it has helped.

But I am really out of my depths on this one, and want only to encourage people to find help, from whatever source will work for them. If you are aware of better sources, I'm happy to learn about them.

Again, I apologise for my ignorance.

.x..e

Subject: RE: BS: Dyslexia
From: dianavan
Date: 27 Nov 04 - 05:06 AM

Ellenpoly - I have heard about the coloured lenses. I don't know anyone who has actually tried it.

One thing I learned that has helped my students who have a visual perception error is to cut down on the glare. Laminated materials produce a glare which causes the print to appear to move around on the page. I now only use plain paper, the less glare, the better.

Besides that, it takes 60 years for that plastic to break down in the environment. Good for the environment, good for my students!

d

Subject: RE: BS: Dyslexia
From: Helen
Date: 27 Nov 04 - 06:05 AM

I use the coloured lenses. I am 49 years old, with a lot of university study behind me and a lot of reading as my main hobby.

I only found out about the lenses a few years ago. Meanwhile I have spent most of my life, i.e. until then, coping with a problem that I didn't even realise does not affect most people. It got worse still as my eyesight started deteriorating with age. In 1995 I spent an extremely miserable half year working in the worst possible light conditions - no daylight, only undiffused fluorescent lights, and a very low ceiling which placed the lights very close to our heads. I had terrible headaches and nausea while working there and had to keep going outside for doses of daylight just so that I could keep working.

When I found out about Scotopic Sensitivity Syndrome it made perfect sense to me because I had suffered all my life from trying to focus on the print which jiggles around on the page and which has a little shadow/halo around each letter.

The issue which dianavan mentioned about glare while reading is exactly what the lenses help to correct. By using tinted lenses, and also by using tinted paper the contrast between the black print and the white page is reduced thereby reducing the glare and making it easier to pin the letters down. It makes it easier to pin down the line of text I am reading instead of jumping around from one line to the next and back again.

SueB, if you don't know about the scientific credentials of the New Scientist magazine, then I suggest you investigate it a little more before using the scattergun approach to labelling the article which Ellenpoly referred to as "pseudoscientific mumbo jumbo" and "outdated hogwash". The New Scientist publishes short articles about the latest scientific experiments and theories. They are all presumably reputable scientists and not your average backyard quack.

It is not exactly scientific to label it as mumbo jumbo and hogwash unless you show us your own in depth analysis on how you arrived at that conclusion.

You are correct to say that the lenses make reading easier - not more "comfortable" but easier. Scotopic Sensitivity Syndrome is often but not always associated with dyslexia - I'm not sure how or why - so if it makes reading easier, i.e. it helps to ease one of the associated problems which is an obstacle to reading then why not use it. It costs very little to get the evaluation, and then I just have to pay for the coloured overlays when I get a new set of reading glasses. The evaluation and the initial overlays were done for me by Professor Greg Robinson who is associated with our local university whose practice is situated within the Special Education unit.

Not all dyslexics have SSS but the ones who do can ease their problems by using the lenses. Maybe your child doesn't have SSS and doesn't need the Irlen lenses. Maybe it would be worthwhile to get the evaluation done to find out for sure. Would you be happy finding out later that your child could have been helped earlier by using the lenses?

Helen

Subject: RE: BS: Dyslexia
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 27 Nov 04 - 11:02 AM

This subject of the coloured lenses reminded me of the books I read by Donna Williams, an autistic woman who wrote "Nobody Nowhere" and "Somebody Somewhere", and later "Like Colour to the Blind".

I remember this was the first time I'd read about the use of coloured lenses, in this case by a woman dealing with several disabilties, who very eloquently describes what it was like for her to put on these lenses for the first time.

Again, I don't know if this is of any interest to anyone on this thread, but I do think there is enough information from enough different sources not to completely discount it as an effective tool for SOME people.

I still feel badly that I might have offered website information which is not accurate or in any way worth exploring, but now that I've read what Helen posted, and found those books again by Donna Williams, at least I think I wasn't completely off base with feeling this might be of interest and possible value.

..xx..e

Subject: RE: BS: Dyslexia
From: vectis
Date: 27 Nov 04 - 04:26 PM

The coloured lenses do help a minority of dyslexics. I am sure that the exercises will help some of those who are able to afford them, especially younger people. There is no magic cure for dyslexia their brains are wired up differently to the average brain.

On the plus side there is generally an increased ability to see the whole picture three dimensionally. This is why one American architect won't employ an architect unless s/he is dyslexic. He reckons that they don't forget something vital like how to get waste out of a building. He employs a clerical team to check spellings and maths.

Some of the wealthiest and most creative people in the world are dyslexic. They are the ones who make the most of the bonuses of the condition.

No I'm not dyslexic but I've taught them for the last decade or so.

Subject: RE: BS: Dyslexia
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 27 Nov 04 - 06:26 PM

Coloured lenses can help some, but the son of my friend Marilyn, gets by very well if stuff is printed on ivory paper. It seems the contrast between black print and white paper is what makes the letters dance. Printing stuff onto cream or ivory coloured paper makes it a lot easier on the eyes. The RNIB (Royal National Institute for the Blind) also recommend using cream or ivory coloured paper for those with vision problems.

Marilyns' son was doing poorly at school. They tested his eyes and found that his eyesight was not the problem. Then they gave him various projects to read. The one he had least difficulty with was printed on ivory paper. Since then, his school has swapped to an unbleached paper for copying, and his grades have improved a whole lot.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Dyslexia
From: Helen
Date: 27 Nov 04 - 10:56 PM

Ellenpoly, I'll try to find the books by Donna Williams. They sound interesting.

Liz,

I have adjusted the background colour on my computer to the same tint as my lenses - which is a light maroon tint. It helps a lot. Part of the Scotopic Sensitivity Syndrome evaluation, after confirming that that is the problem, is identifying the best colour for the individual.   Some people work better with blue, some with other colours so ivory tinted paper isn't the only option but it would definitely help. I've always liked secondhand books, and I think one of the reasons is that often the paper has gone a brownish tint and they are easy to read.

At the SSS evaluation as soon as I looked through the light maroon tint at the sample reading text I went "Ohhhh!!!" so the doc knew that that was the most likely choice for me. He tried out the other tints but I came back to the one that had made me react so pleasantly. It was like "At last! Is this what I have been waiting for? Is this how it is for other people all the time?" It was like coming out of a long, weary, dark tunnel into daylight.

The way I found out about the lenses was when one of my students told me that she needed tinted paper for her exams and as we were talking she mentioned that she also had dyslexia. When I said that I do too she handed me her blue tinted glasses and said, "Try these".

I put them on and tried to read the paper in my hand and said "Ohhhh!!!" I had no idea what they did or why they were supposed to work. I didn't want to take them off. I definitely didn't want to hand them back to her. They kind of stuck to my fingers and I had to force myself to give them back. She told me about the doctor at the uni and I made an appointment as soon as possible after that. Never looked back.

By the way, Liz, I also have the problem with remembering numbers. similar problem with remembering words but numbers go in one ear and out the other, unless I make a logical pattern of them to remember them, e.g. 1248 = 1, 1x2=2, 2x2=4, 4x2=8.   Luckily my pin no. for my bank account forms a pattern on the keypad too so I just have to remember the starting point and the rest is easy.    There are some words I always get the wrong way around. Suspicious and superstitious, Danny and Andy, etc.

One of my uni lecturers (#$%&* cow!) totally humiliated me in front of my whole class when I had to do a presentation for my final assessment for an MBA subject. She said I got the prize for using my hands the most while talking but if I don't use my hands I can't get at the right words sometimes. If I can describe the concept in the air in front of me I can track my brain through its pathways to find the right word. It's like there is a filing room with lots of filing cabinets in the left side of my brain and I have to go from the visual/conceptual right brain through into that room and then find the right filing cabinet and the right drawer to pull out the right "label" for what I am thinking.

When you think about it the words assigned to objects and concepts are all arbitrarily assigned. The word "left" and the word "right" were just agreed upon yonks ago to mean the concept of left and right. For me, I have to go from visualising the concept to finding that agreed upon label.

Helen

Subject: RE: BS: Dyslexia
From: GUEST,SueB
Date: 28 Nov 04 - 12:15 AM

I went back to the two links given by Ellenpoly. The first was an article that appeared in the New Scientist two years ago, describing (not endorsing) a study in which children who appeared to be dyslexic were divided into two groups: one half did exercises for six months and the other half didn't. They were evaluated after six months and the result was that of the group who did the exercises, fewer than 25% had experienced improvement in their reading skills. We are not told in the article how many of the children who did not do the exercises experienced improvement in their reading skills. We are also not told in the article that there is nothing new about these exercises - but I have a book on my shelves called The Gift of Dyslexia first published in 1994 - ten years ago - which uses the same and similar exercises, and the author had been using them at his Dyslexia Correction Center since 1982. The New Scientist is correct in labeling this approach controversial - but it's not controversial because it's new, or radical, or offers a challenge to conventional wisdom, but because it's still pulling people in even though it's based on a theory which has been proven to be incorrect.

Almost all of the remedial reading therapies targeted at dyslexics can and will boast of some success, because in addition to their own gimmick, they also feature one-on-one tutoring, and almost everyone can benefit from one-on-one tutoring.

The other link that Ellenpoly put up took me to a google page on the subject of coloured lenses. I picked two at random. The first describes them as quackery (this piece quotes several well-researched studies)
and the second takes me to the American Academy of Pediatrics clinical report on the subject of Learning Disabilities, Dyslexia and Vision. Here is what they say in a nutshell: "Learning disabilities are common conditions in pediatric patients. The etiology of these difficulties is multifactorial, reflecting genetic influences and abnormalities of brain structure and function. Early recognition and referral to qualified educational professionals is critical for the best possible outcome. Visual problems are rarely responsible for learning difficulties. No scientific evidence exists for the efficacy of eye exercises ("vision therapy") or the use of special tinted lenses in the remediation of these complex pediatric developmental and neurologic conditions." It goes into greater detail, but that's the abstract.

Subject: RE: BS: Dyslexia
From: dianavan
Date: 28 Nov 04 - 01:00 AM

Sue B. - The medical profession has been referring children with learning disabilities to the educational professionals for a long time. In fact, I have never heard of a doctor curing anyone of learning disabilities. If they don't know how to cure it, its passed to the education professionals. Trouble is, we know that early intervention and small group instruction can and does help many children learn. Unfortunately, cuts to education mean cuts to most remedial programs.

You said, "Visual problems are rarely responsible for learning difficulties." Maybe it means visual accuity is rarely responsible. That means, the patients eyes are OK. There are, however, many problems associated with the transfer of visual information to the brain. Doesn't mean the patient can't see. There may also be problems with the way information is passed from the ear to the brain. That doesn't mean the patient can't hear.

The central nervous system is very complicated and it may not be a problem originating in the brain but in any of the nerve connections leading to the brain.

A psycho-educational assessment will be able to determine your child's strengths and weaknesses. A teacher can then teach according to your child's strengths. Don't give up. Work with the teacher. Do what you can do and support the extra effort that is required of him/her. There is no magical cure.

d

Subject: RE: BS: Dyslexia
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 28 Nov 04 - 02:26 AM

From the National Literacy Trust in the UK


http://www.literacytrust.org.uk/Database/dysresearch.html


I thought it was fascinating how many different articles there were posted by those trying to examine Dyslexia from as many angles as possible.

As I said in my previous posts, I am not directly involved in this, having no family that I know with Dyslexia, but I have taught children who are dealing with it, and I certainly have sympathy for anyone who is attempting to find a way to help their kids, or their friends/family.

SueB, I can hear your anger in your posts, and if I've in any way been the cause of that, I again apologize. It's about trying to sift through all that's out there on the subject, which in itself, must be both daunting and frustrating.

Like others here, I can only wish you luck in your endevours.

..xx..e

Subject: RE: BS: Dyslexia
From: GUEST,SueB
Date: 28 Nov 04 - 02:28 AM

Thanks, dianavan, but I think you may have misunderstood me. I'm not searching for answers, because I think I've found them - and my daughter is now advancing in leaps and bounds, which is a great relief to both of us. In the process of finding these answers, I did a lot of research, so I'm pretty well versed in the various approaches that were mentioned below, some of which are highly flawed, at best.

If you're trying to help somebody with dyslexia, you cannot do better than to read Overcoming Dyslexia, by Sally Shaywitz, and follow the advice she gives. When you're dealing with dyslexia, you need a proven, evidence-based, science-based approach, not rose-colored glasses and juggling while standing on one leg. You need, at the very least, to understand what Mark Cohen was trying to get across in his post, about what dyslexia is and isn't, and about phonemes.

I appreciate the words of encouragement, though. I am fortunate to be able to homeschool my own kids - I'm sure that it must be doubly frustrating for parents and kids who rely on overworked underpaid schoolteachers to diagnose and deal with the problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Dyslexia
From: Helen
Date: 28 Nov 04 - 02:40 AM

hanks for the clarification, SueB. You said: "Visual problems are rarely responsible for learning difficulties." You're right, in my opinion. It is not that he visual problem is responsible for the dyslexia. But it is responsible for making reading more difficult. I still stick to what I said earlier in response to Mark Cohen's quoted definition of dyslexia.

"I still see dyslexia as the same. The letter reversals are not a vision problem, they are the way the brain processes what is seen. The image is the same but my brain puts a different spin on the image and chops and changes that spin - admittedly in a fairly predictable manner, e.g. left-right reversals or up-down reversals."

I do however have an associated vision problem, SSS, which exacerbates the problems I have with dyslexia and which have been found to occur in a reasonable percentage of dyslexics. It doesn't help at all to have the print jiggling about, "shimmying like my sister Kate" (there that put the musical reference back into this thread   :-)    ) and making it hard to keep track of which word I am reading and which line of text I was up to.   When you add the jiggling print problem to the dyslexia problem I sometimes wonder how I managed to read at all.

The answer is motivation. My family are great lovers of reading and I am too. That helped a lot. Also my family and my infants school teachers were all very loving and supportive of my difficulties even though there was no scientific name for what I was experiencing back in the early 60's as far as I know. I was never diagnosed with dyslexia and only discovered that there was a name for my problems when I read British actress, Susan Hampshire's book about her own difficulties.   That was in the mid '80's, i.e when I was in my mid '30's and still studying part time while working full time as a librarian.

So, I can only be extremely grateful for the coloured lenses because they have cut my difficulties down to a manageable level, and allowed me to work more effectively on my dyslexia.

Also, I wouldn't discount the exercises. I have found that playing computer games has helped me to become more reactive in visual left-right situations. Having to hit the left and right arrow keys in a fast, yet calculated sequence seems to have trained my brain into recognising left and right a bit more quickly, although if someone verbally instructed me to use my left hand or turn left I would still have to do the mental gymnastics to make sure I was doing it correctly.

Helen

Subject: RE: BS: Dyslexia
From: GUEST,SueB
Date: 28 Nov 04 - 02:50 AM

Ellenpoly - I've gone back and reread all my posts to this thread. Can't find anger in any of them.   Maybe you're upset because of my "that's the kind of pseudoscientific mumbo jumbo I'm talking about" remark? Now that's the kind of thing that can get on my nerves, that passive-aggressive stuff.

Subject: RE: BS: Dyslexia
From: sue exhull
Date: 28 Nov 04 - 04:27 AM

Hello   can anyone tell me more about the coloured lenses? I dont think they would work for my daughter who was finally diagnosed dyslexic/dyspraxic 4 years ago(she is 15 now) as she only has one eye so doesnt have 3d sight. I havent read all your info. yet but hopefully will get thru it tonight The doctors/specialists in Hull were less than helpful e.g for years I told them I thought Katie had far more serious problems than they realised,but because she had the eye prob and heart problems(operated on when 5) they had me down for some sort of nutter!!! finally 3 years ago someone listened and did a MRI scan to find she had hydrocephalus, Since moving to Cambridgeshire 18 month ago Ive found the doctors a lot more helpful,but its too late to compensate educationally now! It makes me so mad to think if they had done a MRI years ago, something could have maybe been done to help her more. Any advice would be much appreciated thanks   sue

Subject: RE: BS: Dyslexia
From: Helen
Date: 28 Nov 04 - 07:20 AM

Hi Sue exhull,

The lenses don't have anything to do with 3D sight. It is simply, as Liz said earlier, that the tinted lenses cut the glare on the paper and reduce the extreme contrast of black print on white paper. It's like having everything printed on lightly tinted paper instead of stark black on white.

Your daughter may not have Scotopic Sensitivity Syndrome but in my opinion it is worth investigating all avenues. The lenses are called Irlen Lenses, so you may be able to find out from your local optometrists, or doctors, eye specialists or education specialists.

SueB, I didn't see anger in your earlier posting, but you gave the impression of a blanket dismissal of a broad range of scientific studies which are investigating interventions which may help to ease the problem of dyslexia. Every dyslexic person is different, so it is impossible to generalise about dyslexia and dyslexics based on the experiences and capabilities of one person. Some things work for some people, and not for others. That doesn't mean that all of the interventions are pseudo scientific mumbo jumbo or hogwash.   

There are probably a range of causes of dyslexia and a range of symptoms. Unless you have done some rigorous scientific, experimental studies of interventions for dyslexia then it would be difficult to pass judgement on what works and what doesn't. Even the studies that have been done would not have been able to test all of the different manifestations of dyslexia.

In telling my own experiences about the Irlen lenses I was trying to provide some anecdotal evidence of what happened with me and why I think it works - and I mean works as a way of easing a problem which makes reading difficult for me, and which compounds the problem of dyslexia. I never claimed that it cures dyslexia. I simply said that it makes reading easier, and therefore alleviates one of the difficulties which I have with reading. I never said it stopped the left-right & up-down reversals of letters, only that it makes reading more comfortable and relieves the strain on my eyes as well.

You can choose the interventions which you believe are best for your child, but you cannot dismiss things which work for other people just because you have decided that it doesn't work in your child's specific case.

As for the label of "passive-aggressive": I think that you are starting to look for a fight that isn't there. We are discussing this issue objectively and not emotively. We are not being overtly OR covertly aggressive.

Helen

Subject: RE: BS: Dyslexia
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 28 Nov 04 - 10:54 AM

Thank you Helen. Sue, please consider her reply to say what I would have tried to say, only much better.

..xx..e

Subject: RE: BS: Dyslexia
From: sue exhull
Date: 28 Nov 04 - 11:49 AM

Hi Thanks for replying, katie has a condition called Micropthalmia, where the eye stopped developing, she is blind in that eye and it is very small ,has any heard of it? I will certainly ask about the S.S.S. when we go to specialist again Thankyou. she is supposed to wear a 'false eye' but doesnt bother, her attitude is if people cant deal with the way she looks thats their fault,not hers :) I really am very proud of her, but I am hoping she is going to give the false eye another go, as now she is getting older I think it will give her more confidence, but if she doesnt thats fine too, she is used to people staring nudging etc, (however I am not, and still blow my top now and then, I hate it when they stare, and over the years have said alsorts of unpleasant things to them, but so what !!!)I dont blame them for taking a second look because she is differnt, but not to stare opened mouthed and nudge friends etc to look too grrrrrrrrrrrr ) I plan to read all your comments on dyslexia tonight so hopefully I will pick up a few more tips. Thank you again bye for now sue

Subject: RE: BS: Dyslexia
From: *Laura*
Date: 28 Nov 04 - 12:27 PM

Numbers are my problem. A while ago in a practice (luckily) maths exam I took 2 from 2 and got 1!
going back to what BI said earlier - there IS NO practical use for algebra! It's just so that the maths teachers can laugh at the geography teachers in the staff room becasue they can teach algebra and all the geography teaches do is teach colouring (sorry if there are any geography teachers on here hehe. i didn't like geography).

sorry - this is quite irrelevent!

Subject: RE: BS: Dyslexia
From: Helen
Date: 28 Nov 04 - 03:25 PM

Sue exhull,

in my post of 13 Nov 04 - 07:51 AM I gave a link to another thread we had on dyslexia. It has a lot of interesting and useful info as well.

Guest SueB, yes I wear rose-coloured glasses. How did you know? :-)

Helen

Subject: RE: BS: Dyslexia
From: GUEST,SueB
Date: 28 Nov 04 - 08:04 PM

In response to Helen saying "you gave the impression of a blanket dismissal of a broad range of scientific studies" I have clearly not made my point - I am dismissing, on the basis of extensive investigation, a broad range of UNscientific studies, based on disproven or unprovable theories.

In response to Helen's assertion that "it is impossible to generalise about dyslexia and dyslexics", you are quite frankly, Helen, incorrect. What they have been able to discover with the use of functional MRI's is neither speculative nor inconsistent. I am talking about recent scientific breakthroughs - cutting edge research, from neuroscientists at the Yale Center for the Study of Learning and Attention, undertaken in the last decade.   

Also, Helen, you say that "even the studies that have been done would not have been able to test all of the different manifestations of dyslexia." I really think it would be helpful to you to read the Shaywitz book, and the research done at Yale - it would do a lot to de-mystify the disorder for you.

Dr. Shaywitz doesn't go into Scotopic Sensitivity Syndrome, but here's an excerpt from one of Ellenpoly's links:

"In 1983 (remember, before we really could see into the brain) a woman named Helen Irlen hypothesized that there might be an underlying neurological problem in encoding and decoding visual information for some people who have trouble learning to read, or for people who have trouble with sustained reading. She futher hypothosized that this problem can be alleviated by adjustments to the appearance of the printed page: that is, special colored lenses in glasses, or colored overlays on the page, and so forth.

They are not such bad hypotheses; its just that the hypothoses, repeatedly, have not been borne out by research.

Since the late 1999s, with the ability to see the brain in action with "functional Magnetic Resonance Imaging" (fMRI) we are learning a lot about dyslexia, and what will and will not work. But parents, or misguided educators, are still recommending "treatments" that have been proven not to work. The internet has made the number of scams, quack diagnoses, and quack treatments even more widely available.

One of these quack diagnoses is "Scotopic Sensitivy Syndrome", also known as Irlen Syndrome.

From an essay by Eugene Helveston, M.D., in Perspectives (IDA)


The perspective afforded by observing the evolution of the concept of scotopic sensitivity syndrome and the treatment with tinted lenses leads to the conclusion that this effort has resulted in classic group behavior. The concept has a strong charismatic personality as originator and sustained leader. The supporting evidence is almost entirely anecdotal. The syndrome is becoming associated with an even more diverse array of maladies, tinted lenses now being offered for relief of problems far removed from reading difficulty. The procedure for determining the specific tint has not been divulged and remains a type of "trade secret." Finally, a financially rewarding franchise activity is at the basis of the Irlen Institute activity.

Another well-researched study concludes:

In a double-blind study of dyslexic children, tinted lens therapy was not shown to improve reading ability subjectively or objectively.39 Studies claiming the efficacy of these lenses have not held up to scientific review. 12.
Citation 39 is Menacker SJ, Breton ME, Breton ML, et al: Do tinted lenses improve the reading performance of dyslexic children? Arch Ophthalmol 111:213-218, 1993.
Citation 12 is Evans BJW, Drasdo N: Tinted lenses and related therapies for leaning disabilities - a review. Ophthal Physiol Opt 11: 206-217, 1991.

The Learning Disabilities Resource community has a good, up-to-date summary on all the Irlen research.

Not only are some findings less meaningful than they first appear, many are questionable on methodological grounds. There continue to be serious methodological concerns with most of the studies claiming support for Irlen lenses. Biased sample selection, small sample size, and lack of proper control procedures are just a few of the more common limitations. Finally, consumers should be aware that many unreported studies show no effects of coloured filters on measures of either reading performance or SSS symptoms.


After a great deal of research, no support could be found for the validity or presence of an actual visual perceptual dysfunction termed "scotopic sensitivity syndrome". Therefore the use of this term is meaningless. Anyone using this term is doing so outside of accepted medical practice.

The symptoms described in "scotopic sensitivity syndrome" can be explained by other, conventional, vision anomalies, that can be treated in more conventional ways if correctly diagnosed."

Subject: RE: BS: Dyslexia
From: GUEST,SueB
Date: 28 Nov 04 - 08:41 PM

Sue Exhull - it sounds as though what you need is a Reading Specialist. If you can't find a reading specialist, you could look for a book called Reading Reflex, by Carmen and Geoffrey McGuiness
(recommended in Overcoming Dyslexia as a good resource for older children.) It starts with simple diagnostic tests to determine your child's reading level - a blending test, phoneme segmentation test, auditory processing test, and a code knowledge test. That may sound complicated, but it's very well explained in this book, and the instructions are easy to follow. Then it gives you what you need to develop these four skills and turn your child into a fluent reader. The approach works very well for people with dyslexia. You can check out the website - www.readamerica.net.

Subject: RE: BS: Dyslexia
From: Helen
Date: 29 Nov 04 - 04:39 AM

So, SueB, why am I more comfortable reading with my tinted lenses or with tinted paper? Am I self-delusiona?

Helen

Subject: RE: BS: Dyslexia
From: sue exhull
Date: 29 Nov 04 - 06:40 AM

Hi Sue B Thanks for website. Katie can actually read quite well, not as well as she should but ok, its spelling and writing she has problems with, she turns letters round etc and writes very badly, it doesnt help shes left handed and her blind eye is her left eye,we have to be careful which pen she uses as she smudges everything shes just wrote with her arm!! we are waiting to see the Neoro.surgeon again to find out what he has decided to do(Im dreading it) but ..... Anyway I will check out website ,thanks for your help    sue

Subject: RE: BS: Dyslexia
From: vectis
Date: 29 Nov 04 - 05:00 PM

Dolland and Aitchison have a lot of branches that test the efficacy of coloured lenses ask at your local branch and see if they know a local optician that does the test if they don't do it in your area.
As a quick check invest in a set of coloured plastic A4 wallets (about £1 for five) at your local stationers.The pack contains one each of blue, yellow, pink, green and clear. Slip them one by one over a page she's reading and see if any colour helps. Not an exact science but cutting down the glare from white paper might help a bit and you never know, you might just get lucky.
Mary

Subject: RE: BS: Dyslexia
From: dianavan
Date: 29 Nov 04 - 09:37 PM

sue exhull - You didn't say how old your daughter is. Concentrate on the reading. As far as penmanship goes, as long as it is legible don't worry. What is more important is that she learns to express her thoughts in written form. Drawing is a good beginning to develop language expression. Be sure that she includes colour and detail. Start there and help her to describe the story.

Don't forget we have word processors. Teach her keyboarding skills and let her write with a computer. Use spell check. I wish I could be more help.

Good luck,

d

Subject: RE: BS: Dyslexia
From: Helen
Date: 30 Nov 04 - 02:41 AM

Sue exhull,

There are also some neat books called reverse spelling dictionaries where you look up the way you would spell it and it tells you how it should be spelt. It works if the person compiling the dictionary thinks of the same possible spelling errors but it's pretty clever. A lot of people who have trouble spelling find it very difficult to look up dictionaries because they don't know how to spell the word. The old "there's a hole in the bucket" routine.

Helen

Subject: RE: BS: Dyslexia
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 30 Nov 04 - 06:19 AM

100!! I think I might be number dyslexic.

Subject: RE: BS: Dyslexia
From: sue exhull
Date: 30 Nov 04 - 06:58 AM

HI everyone Thanks for all your help, I didnt realise people were so kind, Taking time to read about Katies problems (she is fifteen by the way, but in someways she is alot younger) I will certainly try the coloured envelopes that is a good idea !!! I will look out for a reverse spelling dictionary too, that sounds like a great idea. She is waiting for something called a Alph-smart from her school, she should have had one over 2 years ago, her old school never came up with it(even tho it said in her Statement of special needs she needed it) then we moved here and over a year on we have just been told it should be here after xmas!!! WE ARE NOT HOLDING OUR BREATH!!!! Katie is remarkably good on the keyboard, she can write whole paragraphs without looking at the keyboard, I cant write my own bloody name doing that! I have told her about the drawing suggestion, she does try to draw but gets frustrated when it goes wrong, thanks again for your help it really is appreciated, Katie says thanks too   bye for now sue and katie

Subject: RE: BS: Dyslexia
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 30 Nov 04 - 06:59 AM

200!