Learning guitar: Acoustic vs Electric?

Subject: RE: Learning guitar: Acoustic vs Electric?
From: M.Ted
Date: 09 Mar 06 - 04:29 PM

It's not that everyone should become classical guitarists, PoppaGator, it's just that it doesn't hurt to learn clean, repeatable ways to play scales, finger chords, a systematic way to look at the fretboard, and to learn to hang things on a basic framework of metric and harmonic theory--

Subject: RE: Learning guitar: Acoustic vs Electric?
From: GUEST,Songster Bob
Date: 09 Mar 06 - 05:00 PM

If he doesn't have his heart set on one type, encourage him to get an acoustic-electric. It can do the amplified sound, but doesn't need the amp. If he's tending toward the electric, ask him who he wants to sound like (if it's Limp Bizkit, fob him off with an accordion), and get whatever that guy plays (least expensive play-alike, of course, not the full-blown "Guitar God" model, which is just a way to bring the price and profit up). That is to say, if he wants to play like XXX* who plays a Les Paul, he can't sound like that unless he gets something like a Les Paul. If he wants the Stratocaster sound, that Squier Strat-Pack mentioned above is just what he wants. If he's not sure, maybe an acoustic-electric is okay.

Electric guitars tend to be easier to play (unless the action is really, really bad), and acoustics aren't tied to an amp. Those are the good points of each kind. Harder action but freedom, easier action, but tied to electricity (and parental comments, "Not so LOUD! Turn it down!).

Acoustic-electrics are in vogue nowadays, and you can get a pretty playable guitar that can "do" acoustically OR electrically.

Of course, whatever his teacher, when you find one, recommends is another consideration. But whatever you get, make sure he's more or less happy with it (14-year-olds are often times unhappy with any choice, so keep that in mind).

And be sure to play many models when choosing. Even if you then try to get the same thing from eBay, or a yard sale. Get the most from dealing with a music store -- get some assistance in making sure the neck fits the hands, etc.


Bob

Subject: RE: Learning guitar: Acoustic vs Electric?
From: Don Firth
Date: 09 Mar 06 - 10:19 PM

I would hardly characterize myself as a "militant" advocate of using nylon-string guitars. I know many excellent guitarists who play musical styles in which the sound of nylon strings just isn't appropriate. Blues is probably the most obvious example. Although I play alternating thumb picking styles on a nylon-string guitar and seem to get away with it, I think this kind of picking actually sounds better on steel strings. And I can't imagine most country music being played on nylon strings, with the exception of Willie Nelson. But you'll note that he gets a particularly penetrating sound out of "Trigger" by playing close to the bridge, and with a pick instead of using his fingers.

I favor nylon strings especially for beginners because steel strings tuned to pitch exert about 2.5 times as much tension as nylon strings. This reflects itself directly in how much pressure is needed to press the strings down on the frets. Also, there is the "cheese cutter" factor, especially with the unwound treble steel strings. These are important matters to a beginner. Sore fingers! Also, if you eventually want to shift to nylon strings as I did, you have to practically relearn a lot of left hand technique because you're used to using far much more pressure than nylon strings require, and this can affect left-hand agility. It takes a long time to learn to lighten up on the left hand. This is something I learned the hard way. I played a steel-string guitar (Martin 00-18) for a few years because Walt Robertson, my first guitar teacher, used a steel-string guitar.

And then, there is the matter of the technique of playing. I was particularly interested in British Isles songs and ballads, and I liked some (but not all) of the accompaniments that Richard Dyer-Bennet did to such songs. This was in the early Fifties, and there were not that many recordings out to serve as examples of how to do folk songs. Field recordings weren't readily available until later. Among the singers who were available on records, Ed McCurdy played a classic guitar. So did Cynthia Gooding. Although McCurdy and Gooding played reasonable well, Dyer-Bennet obviously knew his way around a classic guitar much better than they did. I wanted to be able to play like him, but I was aware his classical style of both playing the guitar and singing was really "iffy" as far as a lot of folk songs are concerned. Imitating him was not my intent. Among other things, since I'm a bass, I sound a whole lot more like McCurdy than like Dyer-Bennet. And besides, being able to play the way Dyer-Bennet could, as well as he could, did not mean that I had to play that way. There is nothing that stops me from playing a simple "Burl Ives basic," or any other folk style. Whatever I figured was appropriate for a particular song. Not stuck in any one style of playing.

I also liked classic guitar music and wanted to be able to play some straight solo classic guitar. When Walt felt he had taught me all he could, he suggested that I seek out a classic guitar teacher, which I did. I traded in my Martin 00-18 on a Martin 00-28-G classic. I was soon able to play some of the simpler pieces by Sor and Tàrrega, and eventually Milan, Bach, Villa-Lobos, and such. It was not long before being able to work out and play song accompaniments, either simple or complex, became duck-soup.

But—more to the point, when I started teaching, I gave my students options:   "We can start right off learning chords and right-hand picking and strumming patterns. Or we can spend a bit of time going through a couple of classic guitar manuals. Personally, I advocate learning some classic first, but it's your call." Some wanted to plunge right in and start learning songs. Fine with me. Also, easier on me as a teacher.

But some (including Maggie's dad) opted to learn some classical technique first. I can think of several of my former students who went this route and did quite well for themselves, playing a whole variety of different styles, some on nylon-string guitars, many on steel-string guitars. Some of them are still at it. One is a gal blues singer/guitarist (HERE). She started on a classic, but currently plays a Martin D-18. She's very active, and has been since her "debut" at the 1964 Berkeley Folk Festival. She was doing a lot of Joan Baez and Tom Paxton stuff until the festival, where she heard Mississippi John Hurt, went nuts over blues, and had chance to sit down with him and get him to teach her some guitar licks. Having spent some time on classic technique, she was nimble-fingered and knew her way around a fingerboard, so she was able to pick up what he showed her very quickly.

And those are my main reasons for recommending learning some classic technique and getting the appropriate kind of nylon-string guitar to learn it on. HOWEVER, I have never tried to claim that this is the only way.

Two other matters:   

First, as far as barre chords versus wrapping the thumb around the neck is concerned, I have no objection to using the thumb, but I, personally, have never encountered a situation where I felt it was necessary. I could, of course, work out chord voicings in which it would be necessary, but I've been playing guitar for over fifty years and have just never needed to. But whatever turns your crank. It's not a religious issue with me.

Second, I am aware that Chet Atkins was self-taught. He started playing when he was nine years old. He mastered the fingerboard, and it's my understanding that he learned finger-picking from Merle Travis (whether in person or from recordings, I don't know), then expanded his right-hand technique from there. He investigated a lot of different styles of playing, including classical. And he could read music. Tàrrega's Requerdos de la Alhambra is not an easy piece to learn and play, but this was only one of several classic guitar pieces that Atkins could play, and play well. What I said above is, "One doesn't do that without studying a fair amount of classic technique." I did not say that Atkins took classic guitar lessons.

I have not had a classic guitar lesson since the early Sixties. But I'm still studying classic guitar:   practicing technical exercises more or less daily, trying to keep my song accompaniments fresh, and working at learning new pieces.

Maybe one of these days I'll learn how to play the damned thing.

Press on.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Learning guitar: Acoustic vs Electric?
From: Grab
Date: 10 Mar 06 - 11:23 AM

Thanks Don, but I'm not really sure I'm a man of courage. Blind ignorance, perhaps... ;-)

I don't think classical technique is really essential (although as someone who does play a bit of classical, it's something I like a lot). But just using it to learn clean fingering and strumming is the best start you can get. When he can strum 8 beats to the bar and make the chord changes cleanly, and he's doing reasonable barre chords (Hotel California is recommended), then he's probably ready to move onto an electric.

Graham.

Subject: RE: Learning guitar: Acoustic vs Electric?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 10 Mar 06 - 11:53 AM

Don, I certainly hope I didn't offend, and in fact I'm glad if my comments played a role in prompting you to contribute such an interesting and erudite post.

The technique of using the left thumb to fret the bottom string is, as I understand it, pretty much verboten within the realm of classical technique, which requires that thumb be kept well down ast the center of the neck. The classical hand positioning maximizes your reach up and down the fingerboard, of course, but absolutely requires that barre technique be used for chords like the F major.

The inelegant left-thumb wraparound does pull your other four left-hand fingers back into a position where they can't reach nearly so far, but (in a few cases of really advanced ragtime/blues tours de force) it's the only way to play five strings at once at different frets, and to play certain runs of treble-string melody while holding down the requisite bass notes.

I'm able to play barre chords, and routinely play certain chords either with the thumb or as barre chords depending upon the context. Back when I was learning, however, I wasn't able to play the barres at first, and the thumb technique allowed me to play more chords sooner than I would otherwise have been able to finger.

(In general, I still find it easiest to play the F-major are related chords with the thumb, But I use barres almost exclusively for the Bb-major "family" of chords and for most of the minor chords.)

And Ted, point taken. I think we agree that virtually everyone on this forum who favors the classical guitar and/or classical training is someone using that instrument and applying that technique to a wider range of musical genres than strictly classical music. (Ted and I have a long history of minor disagreement over formal musical education versus an intuitive "by-ear" approach, but I do certainly respect his knowledge, and on more than one occasion I have depended on his expertise to learn a tricky chord progression or some other such musical subtlety.)

Subject: RE: Learning guitar: Acoustic vs Electric?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 10 Mar 06 - 12:54 PM

Meanwhile, I gave Dylan $20 the other day so he'd have something for his birthday since it will take us a little while to sort out the guitar and teaching options we want to go with. . .

I have a lot of guitar music around here and will make a point of playing some of it for Dylan to remind him of what the possibilities are. Thanks for giving those examples, Don. And I will eventually print out this thread for him to read. Next week the kids have Spring Break so we'll be able to go do more poking around and talking to folks.

Maggie (SRS)

Subject: RE: Learning guitar: Acoustic vs Electric?
From: Don Firth
Date: 10 Mar 06 - 02:11 PM

Absolutely no offense taken, PoppaGator. I know that, in my enthusiasm, I can sometimes come on like a sort of "classic technique Nazi," but any route that gets a person playing what they want to play the way they want to play it is a good one. It's just that (stating the obvious, in the light of what I've already said) I think classic technique is a sort of four-lane royal road to doing just about anything you want to do on just about any kind of guitar.   

There are a lot of darned fine self-taught guitarists (e.g. Chet Atkins), but self-teaching without some guidance, at the very least, a good manual or technique book (and there are some really lousy ones out there) can lead a person into some real dead ends.

Cautionary tale:   I knew a guy named Jerry who was into blues guitar. Self-taught, he'd been playing for several years, and he was mightily frustrated because he couldn't get a clean, clear, loud sound out of his guitar (a nice Martin—steel-string, of course). I watched him for a few minutes and saw the problem right away. When he first started playing finger-style, he had trouble with his right thumb and his fingers bumping into each other. So he moved his thumb toward the bridge relative to his fingers, with the result that his fingers were almost parallel to the strings. He couldn't even contact the strings with his nails. All he could get out of the guitar was a soft, fleshy tone.

I told him to turn his hand around until his thumb was to the left of his fingers (more like the classic position), so his thumb and fingers would still be out of each other's way, but his fingers would be at more of a right-angle to the strings. This way, he'd have some real control over the tone. He'd been playing the other way for so long that he howled and complained about how uncomfortable and "unnatural" it felt. Well, of course, considering the way he'd been playing for years. I suggested that he stick to it and practice that way for a week or two and see how it went. Well—sad ending. After a couple of days, he found it so frustrating he gave it up and went back to his old way. He never did get a clean, clear tone out of a very nice Martin guitar. He may as well have been playing rubber bands strung across a cigar box.

On the left thumb:   I've never seen a classic guitar piece where "thumbing" the sixth string was called for. And that includes good transcriptions from other instruments such as cello (Bach suites), harpsichord (Scarlatti), or piano (Albeniz or Granados—or Debussy for that matter). So it's not necessarily verboten in classic technique, it's just not needed. And as far as my own accompaniments are concerned, since I do the arrangements myself (from "Burl Ives basic" to fairly lute-like accompaniments on some songs like The Three Ravens), it just never comes up. Not that I take pains to avoid doing it. It just never occurs to me.

But then, I rarely strum all six strings at a time. I'm usually using my right-hand thumb and fingers in various combinations, picking individual strings, sometimes arpeggiated, sometimes three or four notes together, but rarely all six at once. With the first position F, if I'm not using the abbreviated form (top four strings), I do use the barre (definitely not my favorite chord), but since I'm often coming to it, or from it, with some kind of bass run, using the thumb wouldn't work too well for me. I can see where if one wanted to play a first position D, all six, with the F# in the bass and the A and D open, the only way it can done is to use the thumb. Walt Robertson sometimes wrapped his thumb over to catch the F# when he played a B7, all six strings. So there are chord voicings where the left thumb is about the only way it can be done. I think this probably comes up mostly in blues—or maybe in country or rock, where the guitarist is using a pick and is strumming a strong, up and down sort of "whack-whack-a-whack-a-whack" rhythm. Jazz guitarists, on the other hand, when playing straight rhythm and strumming across all six, often position the left hand so the pads of their fingers mute the strings they don't want to sound.

Whatever works. Lemme put it this way:   if I ever encounter a situation where I feel it's called for, I won't hesitate to use my thumb. Whatever it takes to do justice to the music.

Well, son of a gun! This is the kind of discussion that makes Mudcat a pretty neat place! I hope we haven't strayed too far from the subject of getting the young'un launched on an enjoyable plunge into the world of music, wherever he wants to take it. I'd say you doin' good, Maggie

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Learning guitar: Acoustic vs Electric?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 10 Mar 06 - 04:19 PM

This is fine, Don, and I had the same thought about the richness of Mudcat as a resource for sharing this kind of artistic experience. He may not be ready to read this far down the thread for a while, but we all know that others will discover it and may find exactly what they've been needing.

Maggie

Subject: RE: Learning guitar: Acoustic vs Electric?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 14 Apr 06 - 01:33 AM

An update: I printed out this entire thread, and gave my son all 18 sheets a few days ago. He read it cover to cover, and I think between the opinions here and what I'd told him already he said he'd like to get an acoustic electric. I waited a little while to give him the printout because the purchase will come after the tax return comes in. :)

A lot of what people spoke about here will be over his head, but he'll have keywords when it comes to speaking with and selecting a music teacher, and that's important. If he feels that the teacher understands what he wants because he was able to articulate what he wants, then he is most likely to stick with lessons, to practice, and to enjoy the music he makes.

Thanks, all!

Maggie Dwyer (SRS)

Subject: RE: Learning guitar: Acoustic vs Electric?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 25 Oct 06 - 10:40 AM

An update: This month my son started classical guitar lessons at a well-respected guitar studio in town. He lucked out and got an opening in the owner's schedule (he also has several former students who teach here).

We have a guitar on order, a modestly-priced Spanish one (purchased through the studio) that "will make a great second guitar" when he gets older, and will be good for learning on now. Meanwhile, he is using a loaner from the studio. First couple of weeks I heard mechanical note playing, but last night I began to hear cords--and you know how if you click on a little zip file on your computer all of a sudden you have a large file? Well, listening to some of those cords brought back volumes of memories--a single cord is sometimes enough the have the entire song Dad used to play and sing pop into my memory. And my son noted "when I hear some of these cords, I just want to go to Spain."

I can sit the entire lesson in the waiting area, but I usually don't, I walk around a bit to give my son a feeling that he's there one-on-one with the teacher. I come in later when they're engrossed and don't notice me. Last night I heard him take a great deal of time to describe the position for the hand and fingers when playing--how "it may seem strange now, but it will feel natural before long," and how he would have more control. I'm sure this is some of what Don was speaking to just a couple of messages above this. It'll take a while to get this right, but learning it now at the very beginning is going to give him the tools he needs to master this instrument.

Thanks again, everyone, for the advice--and I'm sure there will be milestones and decisions to make about this and future instruments and styles, so I'll keep track of this thread and post updates when they seem appropriate.

Don, I think my Dad would be so pleased with this, and I hope one of these days to bring my young guitarist up to the Northwest where he can meet you and Bob and others and learn more of the story of the family folk tradition.

SRS

Subject: RE: Learning guitar: Acoustic vs Electric?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 12:56 AM

February, 2007, and my son has a few months of lessons under his belt. I sat in the studio waiting room this week listening to them take turns playing the chords of a simple song while the other improvised. I had to turn around and watch to see who was playing which part--they sounded very good. His teacher suggested that he get a tape recorder and do this on his own--first play the song into the recorder, then play it back and practice his improvisation. My dad had lots of recording equipment and gadgets, so I dug out a small recorder with a stereo mic built in, and a 3V adaptor (so I don't go broke buying batteries!) and set him up. Didn't take any time before he was playing back the basic song and improvising over the top of it.

He is still dying to get his hands on an electric guitar, and no one is preventing him. We just had a big purchase of a video game player (Wii) and several games to go with it (part christmas money, part his saved allowance), so he has to save up for a while for the electric guitar and amp that he wants, but he is motivated! I think this summer I may have a son who goes into the lawn mowing business because he's too young to work in some of the retail places yet.

Don, if you're still following this thread, a cousin of mine is getting married in Seattle on Aug. 11. I'm going to try to bring the kids up, and if I do the visit will be very short, but I'd love to have some time to let you and Bob and Jean and whoever else is so inclined sit down and meet Dylan and Caroline and share your stories of music with their grandfather. He'd be so proud of these two, and I think you'll enjoy them. At the same time, I want them to know some of the people who helped his love of music come to life.

I would like to pick up some recordings by current performers who have crossed over from rock to classical or traditional. I've read about several over the years, but the only one I can think of right now is Sting. Who else is versatile in rock and classic or jazz, etc., to listen to for inspiration?

Maggie

Subject: RE: Learning guitar: Acoustic vs Electric?
From: Blindlemonsteve
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 04:56 PM

Accoustic, absolutely most definitely, dangle the electric guitar as the carrot, something to work towards, also, if he learns on an accoustic, he´ll find electric a lot easier, its all to do with the action.

Subject: RE: Learning guitar: Acoustic vs Electric?
From: GUEST,Frank Hamilton
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 05:09 PM

I play both and I think they are both radically different instruments. They are played differently in that one uses a light touch with a different style pick and the other needs to have more projection with a larger or stouter pick or finger picks or bare fingers. The style of music is important here and the great motivator is to sound like the musician that you admire.

The beauty of the guitar is that it is capable of so many different styles of music.

I have heard parents say that they want their kids to start off with acoustic due to their prejudice against rock or that acoustics are cheaper and that if the kid doesn't continue, it's not so hard on the pocket book. This is starting with a negative. If the kid really wants rock, then IMHO buy the best rock guitar you can, a good Strat, Les Paul or Tele etc. The better the instrument, the more incentive to practice it and the resale value is better if you have to sell it. The worst thing you can do is to put an acoustic clunker in a student's hands. The same goes for an electric.

Many kids have been turned off music by inferior instruments.

Putting a bad instrument in a kid's hands says a lot about the parent's attitude toward the value of learning music.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: Learning guitar: Acoustic vs Electric?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 10:09 PM

Frank, he's learning with a classical guitar now, and is enjoying himself. No one is preventing his access to the electric guitar, and I told him that when he gets one he'll have to talk it over with his teacher how he wants to handle learning on two different guitars because I can't advise him there.

My goal, as a parent, is to give him the best opportunity possible, so he can do whatever he wants as he grows as a musician. We're starting him on the classical guitar with a fine teacher and getting the theory and style in there as he learns. His teacher feels that for contemporary music, learning the blues is the best foundation to go into lots of other types. Since he's learning on a classical guitar he's learning the correct way to play this instrument, and if he wants to pursue it later, he can. He is into Metallica and Black Sabbath and System of a Down these days, but this young man has quite varied tastes--after watching the film Amadeus a few years ago he asked for the complete opera Don Giovanni. He wanted to read the libretto and listen to the whole thing, not just hear the charismatic snippets that were in the film. He likes all sorts of music, so I am, for the time being, trying to steer him in the direction in his lessons that will give him the most access later.

The selfish part of this is that what I want for my son is what I didn't have when I was learning piano from various nice ladies who lived down the street. A good solid foundation for his music. His teacher is including theory along with proper methods of playing. From there he can do whatever he wants. It has been my practice to get the kids started on things I think they need to know, and this, like other interests, is a team effort, because he asked for the guitar and lessons. But as he forms a plan and articulates it we'll move forward. Rest assured, there is flexibility in this arrangement so that he knows that once he has the basics down he can call the shots.

SRS

Subject: RE: Learning guitar: Acoustic vs Electric?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Feb 07 - 05:24 AM

to be honest - I think things are changing - you know how it is - things change. circumstances alter cases.

When I was a teacher in Birmingham in the 70's, there were a lot of kids into reggae. I tried teaching them some stuff, but most of them had watched other musicians to me - and I tell you this - very few of those kids ever botheres learning first position chords. they got cheap electric guitars and they started with full six string barre chords.

Nowadays there is less reason to start on the acoustic - even than there was then - you can get a a cheap strat or telly copy with a little practise amp and all that stuff for about a hundred quid. there are playable acoustic guitar kits also - like the Cort.

What I would say is - ask your kid what he wants to achieve, and use your intelligence to help him.

My Dad always told me that Josh White and Segovia could piss rings round Hank Marvin. Of course in my maturity I know my dear old Dad was talking tripe on this occasion. well intentioned tripe - I became a a fingerstyle guitarist, I knew it would please my Dad - but I think as a plectrum guitarist I would have been more employable and more in tune with the times.

Subject: RE: Learning guitar: Acoustic vs Electric?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 10 Feb 07 - 05:38 AM

I had somehow overlooked this thread before... a lot of excellent comments here. I guess I'd boil it down to two issues: what kind of music does he want to play, and is the guitar physically easy to play. When I started out, I jumped from a Stella, which doubled as a cheese slicer, to a Fender. Talk about a quantum leap! I went from the Fender to a Gibson classical guitar... another totally different feel and sound.

In the years that I taught guitar, I found that the two greatest barriers to kids sticking with their lessons were the difficulty in playing a cheap guitar with high action (and a lousy sound) and their not wanting to play the kind of music that I could teach. Kids get discouraged easily for both reasons.

Like anything you set out to learn, you need some immediate payback. If you're playing a guitar that's hard to play, playing music you don't like, payback can seem mighty far down the line.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Learning guitar: Acoustic vs Electric?
From: s&r
Date: 10 Feb 07 - 05:40 AM

SRS - I wish the parents of the kids I teach had your approach. You deserve a virtuoso musican for a son

Stu

Subject: RE: Learning guitar: Acoustic vs Electric?
From: retrancer
Date: 10 Feb 07 - 07:39 AM

I would say both - get him both. An acoustic classical and an electric.

For the starter electric, I'd stay away from the kits - lower quality in everything and the other kids will mock him. For 200 US you can get a fair ibanez (gsa 60) and then get a reasonable entry level amp - crate or i actually like behringer for the value. for under 500 bucks that was my package and I played acoustic for years only just started on electric. They are different instruments - if he wants electric do that - my rents made me learn clarinet before saxophone so i could play both. in the end i hated both.

Subject: RE: Learning guitar: Acoustic vs Electric?
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Feb 07 - 12:13 PM

Folks...note...the original discussion was LAST year. The basic decision has been made, and the guitar student is progressing.

(I wish the Jeff would write some program that checks the date and puts a red **Refreshed** note in when the last post was more than say...3 months old.)

Subject: RE: Learning guitar: Acoustic vs Electric?
From: Don Firth
Date: 10 Feb 07 - 12:42 PM

I just noticed that this thread is back.

Exactly so, Bill. People really ought to get into the habit of noting the dates of posts and reading at least a few previous posts before jumping in with both feet. The matter has been well covered, the decision has been made, the lad has been taking lessons for some months now, and it sounds like he's doing well and enjoying it. What more can one ask?

That's great, Maggie! I will alert Bob (if he hasn't already noticed it) and we'll definitely have to get together when you're here in August. Sounds good! I'm looking forward to it.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Learning guitar: Acoustic vs Electric?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 10 Feb 07 - 01:37 PM

This thread is still yielding useful feedback a year later, though checking dates is something I have to make myself do when I'm ready to jump into a newly discovered thread with both feet.

Like jstarwolf predicts, at some point we're going to end up with both. Advice about how to choose the electric for a student is welcome--he has looked at guitars and found a modestly priced one he is thinking of saving for--but recommendations of types or models would be helpful. Also, the amp is an important ingredient and he's not impressed by the kits that come with the guitar and a cheap amp.

And thanks, stu. I've told him that since his sister says she's going to live under a bridge and keep cats she grows up that he'll have to become a rich musician and support me in my old age. . . :)

I don't have to remind him to practice very often, he's a self-starter in this. School homework is the largest impediment to guitar practice, and I've asked him to stagger his evenings so he doesn't always practice guitar last thing at night. I think that anything done right before bed is less likely to stick if he's tired. (Though maybe he thinks about it when he sleeps--who knows?)

SRS

Subject: RE: Learning guitar: Acoustic vs Electric?
From: Don Firth
Date: 10 Feb 07 - 02:20 PM

Could be, Maggie. When I'm learning a new song, I find that I pick it up a whole lot faster if I go through the words, singing it silently in my head, as I'm drifting off to sleep. If I get stuck on a line or a phrase, the first thing I do in the morning when I get the chance, is to look it up and go over the song again. Also, when memorizing a classic piece, I play it in my head, trying to visualize the music, the fingerboard, and the fingering.

Actually, I don't know if it really works, but since I've been doing this, even with my aging brain cells, I think I'm learning stuff faster than I used to.

At least it makes me feel virtuous.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Learning guitar: Acoustic vs Electric?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 10 Feb 07 - 06:11 PM

Yeah, Bill:

I didn't check to see that this thread was a year old before I posted. Maybe that's allright. Someday someone else may have a son or daughter who wants to play guitar where the parent faces the same decision and this discussion would be beneficial.

Stranger things have happened. :-)

Jerry

Subject: RE: Learning guitar: Acoustic vs Electric?
From: LukeKellylives (Chris)
Date: 11 Feb 07 - 06:01 PM

I, myself, am 15.

*Shock and awe*

If you want my opinion on what to get a fourteen-year-old who has both rock and folk tastes, I'd go with getting him a hollow or semi-hollow body electric. It might be a little more expensive, but it transposes for folk and rock easily. It also can be played without an amp and sound like an acoustic (if you ever actually did that). I, myself, want a semi-hollow or hollow body...But I have too many guitars and mandolins lying around as it is! My room is kinda small, so I am constantly getting it piled up. Gotta make room for some more instruments around for my obsession with banjos and fiddles. ;)

So, either get him an acoustic-electric, or some kind of hollow-body electric (Which is your best bet, if you ask me!).

DO NOT start him off with one or the other if he has both rock and folk tastes.

I have mainly folk tastes (Irish and Scottish), and I had to go over six months with the absolute torture of only having my brother's Squire to play traditional folk music! It was horrible!

Subject: RE: Learning guitar: Acoustic vs Electric?
From: oggie
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 05:32 PM

It totally depends on what he wants to do. Our son, Peter, plays keyboards and anything else he can lay his hands on. He is into the sound something makes and at the moment that is electric. He can play (untaught) my acoustic guitar (or mandolin) but he wants a particular sound. In his case we found (at half price in a sale) a twin necked 6/12 string Tanglewood electric (just under £200) to which he's added a Line6 pod. It makes wonderful music (and noise) and is in tune with what he wants to do. It helps that as an ex-chorister he has the basic musical knowledge so he doesn't need formal lessons but then I never had music lessons either and play too many instruments as well.

To me the important part is getting that spark that so they want to learn, play, improve. If they don't want to play an acoustic guitar then no amount of cajoling about how it will helpp them later wil work - unless you bribe them "get to this standard and we'll buy you a Gibson/Ibanez/Fender" (delete as applicable).

All the best

oggie

Subject: RE: Learning guitar: Acoustic vs Electric?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 13 Mar 07 - 11:00 PM

Don and Bob, I sent you a very large attachment in an email this evening. It hit Don's Earthlink spam filter (I have the same one in place, but I think I have you in my address list). Check your suspect mail and add me to your list. I included a couple of addresses in there. The photo (in two sizes, one for a photo print, one for web or email size) is of Dylan at his lesson today. Note those beautiful long fingers. He's a natural! :)

Maggie

Subject: RE: Learning guitar: Acoustic vs Electric?
From: pirandello
Date: 14 Mar 07 - 07:29 AM

I have been playing guitar for over forty years now so I hope I can speak with a little experience behind me.
Firstly, start your son on acoustic guitar.
Secondly, get the best guitar you can afford for him. So-called 'student' guitars can be uninspiring musically, difficult to play and ultimatel off-putting.

When I began, all those years ago, most guitars in my price range were unplayable dogs which I had no option but to persist with; I wouldn't wish that on anyone!
An easy playing guitar is inspirational, encourages a student to practise and will speed up the learning process.

A good, solid-topped, well-made instrument at a very reasonable price is the Yamaha FG 720S and is my recommendation. My first decent guitar was a Yamaha FG I got in 1969 and I lived with it for years.

Good luck to you both.

Subject: RE: Learning guitar: Acoustic vs Electric?
From: Wesley S
Date: 14 Mar 07 - 08:08 AM

Stilly - You might want to check out Richie Blackmore. From what I've read he went from hard rock { Deep Purple - yeah the guy that played "Smoke on the Water" } to performing Renaissance music. I understand that it's pretty good stuff but I haven't heard it personally.

Subject: RE: Learning guitar: Acoustic vs Electric?
From: Y_Not
Date: 14 Mar 07 - 08:47 AM

I think it is a great thing for a young person to take up a musical instrument and the main lesson to learn is the instrument is a tool with which you make music.
I would say in my opinion it would be best to learn on an acoustic guitar, you hear an immediate response to the technique that you apply and the sound that you create is a true result of your imput.
In any Art form Music/Dance/Painting/Theatre and so on, you need to aquire the basic knowledge, this is then a platform from which you can experiment, pursue and perfect your chosen style.

Learn your scales! this is the fabric with which you weave your dreams.

Subject: RE: Learning guitar: Acoustic vs Electric?
From: kerryguy7
Date: 14 Mar 07 - 09:07 AM

I too am just learning guitar. I am 55 years old and I used to play (chords only...and very poorly!) way back when I was in my mid-twenties.
I just purchased an acoustic. After some advice from a salesman at Guitar Center here in Grand Rapids, I purchased an "Epiphone 150".
I am trying to learn on my own BUT I might throw in the towel and decide to spring for some instrutor led group classes.
Anyway, for what it is worth...I was told to begin learning on a simple acoustic guitar that sounds good and has a fairly good overall tonal quality.
I was told that if I progressed far enough and if I was interested in extending my playing capabilities then and only then should I invest in an electric guitar.
Any suggestions as to how an "old guy" :) like me can better master this here instrument?

Subject: RE: Learning guitar: Acoustic vs Electric?
From: GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz
Date: 14 Mar 07 - 11:10 AM

Learning guitar/acoustic vs electric: First remember that the objective is to play MUSIC....
Having said that, acoustic is the better choice for many reasons. TONE TONE TONE TONE TONE TONE TONE TONE...IS THIS GETTING THROUGH TO YOU? An acoustic guitar is a teacher. It instructs you by allowing you to hear notes on a primordial level, it builds strength because the strings are usually heavier. It is portable.(Yeah, yeah, I know. So's an electric. But you gotta bring the EQUIPMENT, MAN! The groupies. the agent, the underassistant promo man, the wardrobe changes, the lighting, the sound system, the rehab program. Are you laughing now?) O.K. let's continue... You can FEEL it. By it's very nature, it encourages you to play Rhythm, chord patterns, structures that are the very core of music. Every kid wants to Rock out like the big guys he sees on T.V. So Mom and Dad go to the music store and get the guitar , the amp, the lead cord, and the kids gotta have a PEDAL right? He can't TUNE the thing, so they get him a tuner. But in this storm the only thing you have done is inject NOISE into the picture. I have seen a guy who could play lead like Van Halen, but the guy DIDN'T KNOW A CHORD! INCREDIBLE! First, get an acoustic guitar. Do your homework first by learning about acoustic guitars, how the wood should match, how to spot good tuners(keys), how to check if the neck is straight, the names of the strings, how to put them on, how to care for it. Then learn to tune by EAR! No tuner! Then you learn chords. And LISTEN LISTEN LISTEN LISTEN LISTEN LISTEN can you hear me over there?! The progressions will come next. Your hand strength will grow, you will come to understand the importance of tone.(I hope) And then, the time will come when that desire to play electric guitar will be satisfied. But when that happens, you will have been prepared to meet the electric monster on your own terms. You will know what a chord is. You will know HOW IT IS SUPPOSED TO SOUND! Then you can take that and add electric enhancement to it, the power, the distortion, etc. But hopefully, if you have followed the path, you will be playing MUSIC, and not making NOISE. Love Yas. bob

Subject: RE: Learning guitar: Acoustic vs Electric?
From: Scrump
Date: 14 Mar 07 - 11:44 AM

Any suggestions as to how an "old guy" :) like me can better master this here instrument?

Kerryguy, it would help us to advise you if you answered these questions:

1. Do you know any musical theory? I think it may be helpful to know some musical theory, but this isn't essential to play well (there are plenty of good guitarists who didn't/don't know any musical theory).

2. Have you played / do you play any other instrument(s)? If you already play (say) piano it may help to pick up another instrument, from the point of view of understanding how to play chords, etc.

Not essential as I said, but it helps us to know what your musical knowledge is.

Subject: RE: Learning guitar: Acoustic vs Electric?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 14 Mar 07 - 11:51 AM

I can see that I should have made the thread title to "Classical vs Acoustic vs Electric." I've learned a great deal, and realized I had to consider more than just the amplified/non-amplified question when we approached these lessons. I'm glad to see others visiting the thread to make the same comparisons, and Wesley, thanks for the name. I'll look up that guy. I'm planning to take him to the Eliot Fisk concert at TX Wesleyan on Mar. 23. That's through GuitarFortWorth.org.

I've sent a photo to Pene Azul to add to my Stilly River Sage pages. It is of my son at his lesson, to add something to the body of knowledge this thread is attempting to convey. He's enjoying his lessons, and is saving to buy an electric guitar. When his student guitar (on order from a company in Spain) comes in this is one that his teacher says is good to learn on and is a good second guitar. And Dylan is welcome to buy as many additional instruments as his budget allows, once he earns his own money. :)

SRS

Subject: RE: Learning guitar: Acoustic vs Electric?
From: GUEST,M.Ted
Date: 14 Mar 07 - 03:50 PM

Oddly enough, a classical guitar, and (even some classical guitar lessons) are probably a better place to begin for the aspiring electric guitarist than a steel string acoustic guitar.

The reason is simple--scales. Classical guitarists learn scales in positions up and down the neck. Electric guitarists play a lot of single note stuff, up and down the neck. People who start out on steel string acoustic guitars tend to learn to play open block chords, which don't really tend to be that interesting on electric guitar.

It is possible to learn to play on an electric guitar, and there are some reasonable, inexpensive ones out there--the thing is(and I know this has been said, but it bears repeating) that there is too much extraneous stuff going on with an electric guitar--chords, amp, tone, volume, pickup configuration--a beginner needs to focus, multitasking, at the beginning, can be an unsurmountable barrier--

Subject: RE: Learning guitar: Acoustic vs Electric?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 14 Mar 07 - 03:57 PM

If your first love is electric - buy electric! I would guess that in this day and age most aspiring young rock guitarist would go straight to electric. For £100, a kid could get a reasonable electric guitar and a small amp.

Subject: RE: Learning guitar: Acoustic vs Electric?
From: Grab
Date: 15 Mar 07 - 09:26 AM

Hmm, missed the refresh of this last time.

Some brilliant players who've taken electric techniques or songs and put them on the acoustic guitar are Michael Hedges, Eric Roche (both sadly deceased), Thomas Leeb and Rodrigo y Gabriela. Rodrigo y Gabriela in particular play some amazing flamenco-style covers of Metallica songs. If he's into the whole crossover thing, I suspect he'll like them.

Graham.

Subject: RE: Learning guitar: Acoustic vs Electric?
From: kerryguy7
Date: 15 Mar 07 - 09:38 AM

You're right Scrump, I should have mentioned that I have played bagpipes in the past. I can sight read music and have previous experience playing acoustic guitar in the past. When I played guitar I simply played chords...all self taught...simply copied what I saw in some instructional books.
So, at this point I am trying to learn from the start, as they say.
But...I do read music, I am certainly not a stranger to music theory either.

Subject: RE: Learning guitar: Acoustic vs Electric?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 09:53 PM

Catching up on the guitar lessons:

He has been alternating between classical and electric for a couple of years now. After a year or so he bought the electric, but didn't even mention it to his teacher, I'm the one who did. Since this is clearly something he is motivated to learn, and his teacher is very wise (and has also played electric and opened for various bands) he suggested Dylan bring it in, and they alternate back and forth, a few weeks on one, then on the other.

Tonight he is in practicing Villa Lobos, his Etude #11. Sounds magnificent! He's come a long way. This may or may not be a easy piece to learn, but it is satisfying, to know he is at home with and enjoying a range of music, from Metallica and Segovia.

Don, my Dad would shed tears of joy, I'm sure, to know how happy Dylan is to be playing, and to be doing it on his own terms. And by extension, it was exposure to your teaching all of those years ago that led me to help him with these choices. Thank you so much!

Signed,

One Happy Mom, with one Happy Son :)

Subject: RE: Learning guitar: Acoustic vs Electric?
From: Ebbie
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 01:16 AM

Stilly, I admire your parenting. Congratulations to the both of you.

Since he was mentioned a bit at the top of this thread - I have a couple of Chet Atkins stories. Back in the 80s he and his band stayed at the motel I was operating at the time.

His band members went out and about but Chet stayed in. He would wander over to the office with his big -unlit - cigar just to hang around.

Whenever I passed his room I would hear him in there with his music. The man still practiced...

The day they left they came to the office to say goodbye and his bass man said, Don't you want a picture of Chet?

I was taken aback - I don't usually do that kind of thing - but I said, Oh, yes. Oh, sure.

I got my camera and we went outside. He stood by the car and I snapped the picture. He got in the car and they backed out of the slot.

I droppped the camera. Into a water puddle.

I felt bad, because I knew they probably saw the accident. But I still have the picture- it is kind of dark but it did come through.

Subject: RE: Learning guitar: Acoustic vs Electric?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 01:47 PM

Stilly, they are really two different instruments. It depends on the kind of music he's interested in. For rock, a low action, fairly good pickup is adequate. Also, a good amplifier.
Not a cheap sounding one.

For folk, a playable neck and a pleasant sound. Yamaha or Takemine are cheap but good.

Motivation is important here. What style?



Frank

Subject: RE: Learning guitar: Acoustic vs Electric?
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 02:55 PM

Yes, indeed, Maggie, I sure your Dad would by proud of his grandson! It sounds like Dylan has come a long way in a few short years. That Villa-Lobos Etude is not overly difficult, but it's not an easy piece either. You need to have some technique under your fingers before being able to tackle that!

Etude 11 by Villa Lobos.

####

I've only played an electric guitar once. One afternoon, I was visiting a friend who was working as a bartender in a place that had jazz in the evenings. The place was practically deserted, and the lead guitarist's axe was sitting up on the bandstand. I mentioned that I'd never played an electric and my friend said, "Why don't you try the guitar? I'm sure (he mentioned a name I don't remember) wouldn't mind." So I got up on the bandstand, the bartender turned the whole shebang on, and said, "Go to it!"

I hauled off and did some finger-picking stuff like "Freight Train," "Railroad Bill," and a few others, then tried a classic piece or two. I became overcome with lust! All that brute power at the turn of a knob!

As I began to covet the guitar I was playing, it suddenly occurred to me that in the gear around me—amps, speakers, miscellaneous foot pedals for various effects—I was looking at megabucks worth of equipment.

Thinking of the state of my bank balance, I sobbed a mighty sob, then gazed at the skies and cried out, "Get thee behind me, Satan!!" and put the guitar down!

Wow! That was a near thing!

I love my classic guitar and the music I can play on it, and I would never part with it, but electrics are sure fun to play. . . .

What brand of electric does Dylan have?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Learning guitar: Acoustic vs Electric?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 04:15 PM

It is an Ibanez, a modestly priced one that a kid could afford as a good practice guitar, and an amp he bought separately (sometimes there are guitar and amp packages, but those are to generally be avoided, apparently).

SRS

Subject: RE: Learning guitar: Acoustic vs Electric?
From: Nick
Date: 12 Feb 09 - 09:22 AM

My son has just started playing classical guitar after playing mostly electric guitar for the last few years. He intends to go to music college after his A levels in 18 months time and so needed to do his grades in preparation. He got his grade 8 on electric guitar (with a 95% distinction) in December and is now doing classical guitar with the aim of picking up a grade 6-8 over the next year or so. One of the things that his tutor thinks is that classical guitar will also have benefits on his electric playing in terms of rhythm and expression.

Very different to his electric playing (most of his interests are in the rock/Vai/Satriani area and jazz) where his prime interest is in writing and improvisation. It will be interesting to see where it all ends up but he is a fine player already and loves it all. I think it's great to have a hobby that you love so much - it was his 17th birthday on Saturday and he had three friends round playing music (and chess) for most of the day.

He has an interesting range of techniques from a (growing) classical one to tapping and legato techniques which are more applicable to an electric but the fluidity and the speed that he can play at is very much from his electric playing. His current tutor is very much technique based and my son practices his arpeggios and scales and runs with his metronome so his fundamental technique is solid even though he started as an electric player.

And yes his guitars (compared with mine) are much more expensive. He plays an Ibanez JEM7V and a seven string Ibanez RGB and that pretty much put paid to all the pocket money.

Subject: RE: Learning guitar: Acoustic vs Electric?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 12 Feb 09 - 09:51 AM

I don't know what the grading system is you're talking about, but it sounds like he is taking classes in school? For the time being, we're paying for extracurricular private lessons once a week, year round. I have quizzed this child any number of times about what he wants to do when he goes to college or if he has given any thought to which college, but I don't have an answer. I'm sure music will be part of it, whether it is as a formal program or a favored hobby.

SRS

Subject: RE: Learning guitar: Acoustic vs Electric?
From: Nick
Date: 12 Feb 09 - 10:04 AM

He learns the piano at school as part of his A level music as an alternative instrument and for a bit of fun but his guitar is all outside of school with a private tutor.

The exams were via the Registry of Guitar Tutors. There is info about them on the site.

Subject: RE: Learning guitar: Acoustic vs Electric?
From: GUEST,TJ in San Diego
Date: 12 Feb 09 - 02:11 PM

Sharing your passion for music with the next generation can be very challenging.

My son, who has had his own group for nearly nine years now, once thanked me for making him learn on an acoustic guitar first. I had played for years, self-taught and with a poor ability to sight read. When he said, at age 5 or so, that he wanted to be a "rock star," I had a chat about basics with him.

I told him we would get a guitar for him to use, but that he would have to demonstrate that he was serious by taking lessons, learning music theory and staying with that program for at least two years. At first, he was angry that he wasn't getting an electric. But, he did all he was asked, learning with a steel-string Yamaha.

He started picking up my classical guitar and spending more time with it along the way. We eventually got him his electric, an inexpensive Squier. Within a year, he had sold it and bought his own Takamine classical guitar, with which he continued his lessons past the age of fifteen. He told me that the musical discipline and versatility he now enjoys comes from the basics we asked of him when he was starting out.

Subject: RE: Learning guitar: Acoustic vs Electric?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 12 Feb 09 - 04:32 PM

I stumbled upon a remark on Facebook about a favorite musician of his. He noted that the guitarist was versatile and displayed a strong understanding of the theory behind the music. These things go together for him, and make the music more powerful.

Subject: RE: Learning guitar: Acoustic vs Electric?
From: Nick
Date: 12 Feb 09 - 08:36 PM

>>Sharing your passion for music with the next generation can be very challenging.

Speaking personally I'd have to say rewarding yes, challenging no.

Perhaps my experience is different than others. My elder son learned to play the piano so we offered our younger son the opportunity to learn and instrument if he wanted to. He didn't want to. Until...

A fiend of his at school started playing (about 6 and a bit years ago) and so he thought he'd have a go too. He had some lessons at school and we bought a spanish guitar for him. He just enjoyed playing and practiced and practiced and loves it. Never asked him to practice or do anything he just does it for him. I bought a Strat copy for me a few years ago as I wanted to play an electric (mid life thing and I don't like cars and don't want an affair) and he started playing that. I played my first proper gig with him when he was 14 at Fibbers in York and it has been a real joy to get to play together at a few places.

Now he has a bunch of friends who he plays with and gets involved in a classical guitar quartet, plays in a couple of jazz bands, collaborates with a guy the other end of the country on music that they write together, plays occasional gigs with me and friends and the rest of the time practices.

One of the huge joys is coming home, like tonight, and listening to him and a friend practicing together. I snuck in my Zoom recorder and you can hear a bit here - it's a couple of spanish guitars and a spanishy-jazzy thing but I don't know what it's called (sounds like that Al de Meola/John McLaughlin/+flamenco player album that I have somewhere).

Acoustics or electrics? I'm not too sure it matters.


http://www.esnips.com/doc/2ae38c42-f92a-443a-b47d-35bf6baf2811/jazz

Subject: RE: Learning guitar: Acoustic vs Electric?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 12 Feb 09 - 10:21 PM

What a pleasant piece to come home to! Thank you for sharing that. How old is he now?

This thread started out with the goal that I think has continued fairly unaltered for me--as a parent there are things I know about the process of learning an instrument, and if I can convince my son to take the bit harder road for a while (classical guitar and the techniques that go with it) then anything else that comes later will be easier for him. And if he stays with classical, that's fine, but that isn't the ultimate goal. I wanted to help him develop the skills that give him the most choices in his musical life.

I don't know that my kids will ever some day say, at the Grammy's or whatever, "Thank-you Mom, for making me take classical first." Or even sitting around one day playing for the grandkids and have him say "Mom was right about taking classical." I just want him to be able to pick up the guitar he wants to pick up and be able to play it, or learn how without agonizing about the steps he left out when he was learning the first time around.

SRS

Subject: RE: Learning guitar: Acoustic vs Electric?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 12 Feb 09 - 10:22 PM

100! Might as well grab it. :)