BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?

Subject: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: Bobert
Date: 27 Dec 02 - 10:16 PM

Not to be diverting attention to the other thread about Bush's desire for a war on Iraq, it seems that he is Hell bent on a hot war, any where... against any one.

Donald Rumsfield says the the US is capable of fighting on two fronts. Counting Afganistan, that makes three, but who's counting? Throw in North Korea and Iran and that makes four or five. With the US involved in so many fronts, how many other skirmishes will break out where bad folks will figure that the US is too occupied to notice.

I'm seeing the world on the utter brink of a WORLD WAR!

Your thoughts?

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 27 Dec 02 - 10:19 PM

all the politicians of the world are united in 'spin'- hence the quest for 'WEAPONS of MASS DISTRACTION'!!

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: TIA
Date: 27 Dec 02 - 10:29 PM

I have no doubt that war in Irag will lead to uprisings in the Philipines, Pakistan and Indonesia to name a few. Then add a war with Korea. Meanwhile, closer to home, Venezuela, and other Latin American countries, edge closer to unrest and possible violence. A bellicose, jingoistic, US President hell bent on appearing manly, keeping our minds off his utterly failed domestic policies, and resuscitating his buddies' industries with defense contracts is all we need to set the spark to this tinderbox. It's scary as hell Bobert. I'm prepared to pack my girls off to somewhere safe like...??...??

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 27 Dec 02 - 10:36 PM

No!

Those who wish to start the III rd war are simply trying to wake us up!

It is they who are at our door.

....and upon the brink!

                   Can patience of peace loving people (and I dont mean the lying silly North Korean Madmen or Saadamites) be infinite?

Perhaps we shall see them gaze upon the long forgotten deterrant!

I dont think, in that case, that they will be wishing to remain on the brink for long! I think all americans including the leadership would much rather let the Koreans and saadamites go back to peace and let us get on with watching movies and playing computer games, which we would all much rather do.

To think that war is some sort of American fixation and phobea is simply silly. Countless administrations have demonstrated that we would rather go to sleep and look the other way and give our potential enemies our advanced technology along with financial and food aid!
We would rather institute some sort of cure for the natives like forced bussing than fight anyone. Now which neighorhood would like a few billion north koreans?

Conrad

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: Bobert
Date: 27 Dec 02 - 10:40 PM

TIA:

I'm with you! I survived 8 years of activism against the Vietnam War but I've been giving some serious thoughts as to where I might find a level of security and peace in a world so messed up becuase Barbara Bush made Georgie, Jr. feel so inadaquate because he wouldn't learn to use the toilet...

Man, bring back Bill. Sure, he got laid in the White House but he didn't have to kill half the world to cover it up...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: TIA
Date: 27 Dec 02 - 10:41 PM

Yeah, but this administration cares primarily about staying in power, and war is great for their ratings. Despite Conrad's accurate historical perspective and social commentary, I'm still scared.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: Amos
Date: 27 Dec 02 - 10:43 PM

Bobert, I think the third world war has been going on for years; the big change that September 11th wrought in our national awareness is simply the decision to take it seriously.

The earlier skirmishes were acts of war likewise, but we didn't take them as seriously -- the Cole, World Trade Center First Attack, US Beirut Embassy attacks, the seizure of hostages in 1979, Tehran, the explosion of the Marine barracks in 1983. These are by and large, IMHO, a different enemy than Saddam and his Ba'athists. Nor are they the Al-Q'aida, predominantly Sunni Islamist. These guys are more the Mullahs of Islamist Shia groups, the ones who sponsor Hezbollah.   The fascist government types such as Sadaam are a second wing. The most virulent currently is the ISlamist Sunni set, which I think is the main theme that gave rise to Al-Queda.

It is not a question of mass destruction, really, although that is the current flag being waved at the White House as a (somewhat dumb, in some ways) rallying cry. It is really an extension of the same battle we fought all through the post-WW II era, trying to contain totalitarian forces and help people establish representative, democratic-style governments.

I despise the violence of war as a complete failure of intelligence and effectiveness in every other path.

But I think we should be aware that even though we have not been "at war" with specific targets for quite a while, a number of groups have placed themselves in a condition of being at war with us!

A

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 27 Dec 02 - 10:46 PM

Y'all worry too much.

Chill out, it ain't gonna happen.

Murray

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: TIA
Date: 27 Dec 02 - 10:48 PM

I'm holdin' ya to that Murray.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: Bobert
Date: 27 Dec 02 - 10:48 PM

#1 Peasant:

So you think it's all a bluff?

"No one in their right mind would mess with us!"

But what if we mess first? Hmmmmm, Peasant One?

Different scenerio... indeed...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Dec 02 - 10:52 PM

Eve of destruction
Barry McGuire

The Eastern world, it is explodin',
Violence flarin', bullets loadin'.
You're old enough to kill, but not for votin',
You don't believe in war -- but what's that gun you're totin'?
An' even the Jordan river has bodies floatin'.
But you tell me, over and over and over again, my friend,
Ah, you don't believe we're on the eve of destruction.

Don't you understand what I'm tryin' to say,
An' can't you feel the fears I'm feelin' today?
If the button is pushed, there's no runnin' away,
There'll be no one to save, will the world in a grave.
Take a look around you, boy, it's bound to scare you, boy.
An' you tell me, over and over and over again, my friend,
Ah, you don't believe we're on the eve of destruction.

Yeak, my blood's so mad feels like coagulatin',
I'm sittin' here just contemplatin'.
I can't twist the truth, it knows no regulation,
Handful of senators don't pass legislation,
An' marches alone can't bring integration
When human respect is disintegratin',
This whole crazy world is just too frustratin'.
An' you tell me, over and over and over again, my friend,
Ah, you don't believe we're on the eve of destruction.

Think of all the hate there is in Red China,
Then take a look around to Selma, Alabama.
Ah, you may leave here for four days in space,
But when you return it's the same ol' place,
The poundin' of the drums, the pride an' disgrace.
You can bury your dead, but don't leave a trace.
Hate your next-door neighbor, but don't forget to say grace,
An' tell me, over and over and over again, my friend,
You don't believe we're on the eve of destruction,
No, no, you don't believe we're on the eve of destruction.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: Bobert
Date: 27 Dec 02 - 10:54 PM

Amos, my brother:

Let's not forget a 30 year foriegn policy of the US that has been exclusionary, punitive and based on unilaterialism...

We are not lookin' at the big picture but what brings the greastest profits to Boss Hog.

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: Amos
Date: 28 Dec 02 - 12:25 AM

Regime change begins at home, eh? Possibly. If it happens it will be done by popular vote, or at least a representative system, Boss og's Supreme Team notwithstanding.

The basic conflisct between representation and autocracy has been in play for a lot longer than thirty years, and even though it is going through some very bumpy permutations, it is still the same fight.

There were less than fifteen democracies in the nations of the world world 85 years ago at the start of WW I. There are something over 100 today.

That's the message we should be sending all through the Middle East, if you ask me. Something is prevailing, and it isn't dictatorship.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: michaelr
Date: 28 Dec 02 - 01:49 AM

Ah Amos, I'm sorry to say, your eyewear may be a tad on the rosy side. There hasn't been a "popular vote" since 2000, whether one takes the term to mean "all people vote" or "most votes win".

As to "representative system", I don't feel represented -- do you?

Autocracy is kicking ass on representation in the USA. There may be more democracies on the globe now than there were 85 years ago, but there's one less on this continent. And the key? Media (and thereby mind) control.

Ridiculously, we still hear claims of "liberal media". That's ludicrous; all the major media outlets are owned by the five major US corporations. Expect this trend to take hold in the rest of the world.

It's called "creeping fascism". It works by working slowly, and using great P.R. Be very afraid.

Cheers,
Michael

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: Ebbie
Date: 28 Dec 02 - 04:14 AM

The moon? I foresee a time when a colony is set up on - or rather in the moon. Not in time for these silly-assed days, though.

On the one hand, I'm willing to grant that those in power have more information than I - or any of us, for that matter- but when you can't trust them, when you feel sure that you are being lied to and manipulated and power-pushed this way and that, for reasons you can't comprehend, what is there to do?

I'm with TIA- for what it's worth, I'll remember Murray M., DougR and a few others' take on all this. I sincerely hope they're right- and I have no such confidence.

Can you imagine feeling/saying/hoping that your president is an honorable man and that his advisors have a broad international view - and as you see what is happening now and looming on the near horizon, being utterly afraid you are WRONG? There's going to be a mad scramble as they explain to us why the president and our country had no other recourse. Talk about spin.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 28 Dec 02 - 04:29 AM

We've been sitting on the doorstep since 1945. Someone rang the bell round about 1958 and now we can hear the footsteps coming down the hallway.... there's still time to run away but somehow I don't think that will happen.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: C-flat
Date: 28 Dec 02 - 05:32 AM

Yes I think we could well be on the brink of a World War. The powers driving the initiative against Saddam Hussein see only the opportunity to complete what was left undone from the Gulf war and are using the "War against terror" banner to hide behind after the shock of September 11th. Worryingly, the men with their fingers on the triggers see this only in terms of armed superiority and therefore marching into to Bahgdad is a foregone conclusion. Both the weapons inspection and the demand for a comprehensive statement from Iraq is a bluff designed to give us a reason to attack.
Undoubtedly Saddam Hussein is a murderous tyrant who is a negative force on our planet but as the Gulf war showed, the freindly alliances the West has with Moslem states in the Middle East are fragile and would only support the pushing back of Iraqi troops from Kuwait. I can't imagine that they are comfortable with the idea of an occupying force of non-Moslems on their doorstep.
If you think of it in terms of an Arab nation wanting to remove Castro from Cuba or deciding to invade Italy or Poland because they were supporting anti-Moslem activists and you can well imagine how outraged we would all be.
This could easily become an all-out religious war in which the West becomes a catalyst to unite all Moslem nations against us. It would take one charismatic Moslem leader, Assad of Syria for example, and we might find ourselves dealing with a powerful force of deeply committed men fighting for what they truly believe in.
It's a very real and very frightening prospect.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 28 Dec 02 - 06:40 AM

It's been too long since there was a real war, and world leaders have become sanguine, and falsely secure. Have they forgotten the trenches, and the gas chambers, the killing fields and the dictators.
All this was going on in the days of the crusades. Saladin sounds a bit like Saddam; funny thing that!
Q.Why do nations want to stick their oar into the doings of other nations?
A. Because they think they know best!
Well fuck them all, I don't want to be dragged into a war on somebody elses say so.
I want my son to inherit a better world, and all the politicians seem to do is kill, and threaten to kill some more. What does he and my grandson, have left to look forward to? These guys in power don't care about us, they have access to the bomb shelters and the money to ensure that they and their families will be safe, in the event of conflict. It's us poor saps who man the barricades at their behest, while they massage their egos.

RANT RANT RANT.......Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: GUEST,Taliesn
Date: 28 Dec 02 - 07:09 AM

(quote)
"I'm seeing the world on the utter brink of a WORLD WAR!"

It's already a Third World War , so to speak , but it's been a shadow war ,a "looking glass war" , a 2nd Cold War with a constellation of flashpoints creating a path to a critical mass.

North Korea will ultimately "have" to be taken out and dismantled and the linchpin there is China which gives one *no* degree of comfort. The regime there is already on the brink of collapse and is acting "cornered" the way a Saddam theoretically would.
China is already on its way to an arms race to challenge the West for supremacy over its sense of sovereigncy
of a declared 100 mile extension into what the world agrees to as "international" waters. ( 12 miles has been the enforced standard ).
China also has one of the most startlingly "unique" and unnatural demographic as a direct result of its state policy : namely a huge population of *only child* males. Whom here would want to face vast army of male spoiled brats with weapons and no hope of mating with their own due to scarcity.

China is also the key sponsor / supplier of the Pakistan nuclear weapons prpogream that has now acheived fruition mostly to throw off guard its only viable challenge to the South of its millitarization of the Tibetian Plateau ; India and India knows this.

Then throw in the Isreali/Palestinian hostility that others will exploit further.

I suppose all this is in the vein of "the" question of the 21st century; namely "are we now seeing the allignment of forces
that will result in final battle of Armageddon" ?

From what I'm seeing just by keeping up on geopolitical positioning ever since the 2nd Oil Shock of 1979 with the Iranian Revolution and hostage crisis , I've stepped up my praying for peace to atleast ameliorate the outcome of all of these clear & present war currents.

Fundamentalist Islamist millitantism is a ready force to be exploited by "outside" interests whom believe can gain from the disruption some are hell bent upon creating.
Where the Islamic Gandhi is to speak with authority against these blasphemers will be something the truly faithful Islamic world will have to answer for if they fail to produce and rally behind one.

Then ,again , should we still come to a true brink , there's always the trump card; namely the global upheaval of earth changes starting with the "sudden activity" of the Pacific Rim faultlines ( Mt.Aetna doing a Mt. St. Helens and such ) ending with a 24 hour cycle of Polar Axsis Shift.
Sometimes the world of humankind just needs to be grabbed and shook hard by the scruff of the neck and i'm afraid we're due.

If this arrival of the Raelians' "Cloneaid " announcement , whether or not it's a hoax for publicity to grow their membership and attract investment capital , isn't a sign of the times I don't know what is.

Oh, BTW ,the Raelians have made their world headquarters in Quebec. Way to go Canada ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: GUEST,Taliesn
Date: 28 Dec 02 - 07:24 AM

( quote in need of correction )
".....namely the global upheaval of earth changes starting with the "sudden activity" of the Pacific Rim faultlines ( Mt.Aetna doing a Mt. St. Helens and such )...."

Yes, I know the recently active Mt. Aetna affects the Mediterranean Sea via Scicily.
I did say " earth changes *starting* with the sudden activity of the Pacific Rim faultlines" , but in no way *ending* with those Pacific Rim faultlines.

Eitehr way shipping lanes will most certainly be disrupted and seeing the economic disruption of just what a dock strike on the California coast or shipping interuption of Venazuela oil can cause , mass interuption orf Pacific Rim shipping traffic alone should give one pause. i mean just how dependent has the US become on goods manufactured in the Far East as our means of industrial manufacture has continued to be cast aside.

Better start stocking up on those Trail Mix granola bars as you'd be amazed what hungry people will do to eat.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: *daylia*
Date: 28 Dec 02 - 09:55 AM

ONE TIN SOLDIER

"Listen children to a story that was written long ago,
'Bout a kingdom on a mountain and the valley folk below.
On the mountain was a treasure, buried deep beneath a stone,
And the valley people swore they'd have it for their very own.

Go ahead and hate your neighbour - go ahead and cheat a friend.
Do it in the name of Heaven - you can justify it in the end.
There won't be any trumpets blowin' - come the Judgement Day.
On the bloody morning after - One Tin Soldier rides away.

So the people of the valley sent a message up the hill,
Asking for the buried treasure - tons of gold for which they'd kill.
Came an answer from the kingdom - 'With our brothers we will share
All the secrets of our mountain - all the riches buried there'.

Go ahead and hate your neighbour - go ahead and cheat a friend.
Do it in the name of Heaven - you can justify it in the end.
There won't be any trumpets blowin' - come the Judgement Day.
On the bloody morning after - One Tin Soldier rides away.

Now the valley rose in anger - 'Mount your horses! Draw your swords!'
And they killed the mountain people - so they won their just reward.
Now they stood beside the treasure - on the mountain dark and red.
Turned the stone and looked beneath it ...
                   'PEACE ON EARTH' was all it said.

Go ahead and hate your neighbour - go ahead and cheat a friend.
Do it in the name of Heaven - you can justify it in the end.
There won't be any trumpets blowin' - come the Judgement Day.
On the bloody morning after - One Tin Soldier rides away."

                   - The Original Caste -
                        (Canada, 1969)


Maybe it's a little trite, but to me it says it all. Some things never change. Seems we're always tottering at the brink of war. Right now it does look like we're dangerously close to losing our balance again though.

There's a real cynical part of me that says war and hate are a NECESSARY part of the human condition, because without them we wouldn't know love and peace either. That would explain why it's ALWAYS been us, in every age and on every continent. The "Law of Polarity", so to speak.

But when I ponder that too deeply I feel like "BEAM ME UP SCOTTY"...

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: Janice in NJ
Date: 28 Dec 02 - 10:01 AM

"Are we at the doorstep of World War III?" Dumb question. Hell, we're already having drinks in the parlour!

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: Big Mick
Date: 28 Dec 02 - 11:42 AM

Boy, this is a tough one, once we get past the trite little comments and into the deep pool of reflection.

On one hand we have a President who seems hell bent on leather to get into a shooting war when all he really needs to knock of this idiot is a well thought out, and focused embargo on one industry (oil) to deny this "carrot and stick" tinhorn of his club. Two to three years later and "voila" he would be gone by his own people and nary a shot fired by anyone other than the people whose future is at stake. Painful? Yeah, but less painful and deadly than bombs and M16's. And not as much suffering as an unsustainable embargo on everything, that hurts the average citizen more than Sadaam ever could, and causes much more anger at us. And he has a Secretary of State that would be able to carry it out. As an aside, the only warrior in Bush's cabinet is also the most peace loving of the bunch. Message there for anyone?

Korea? This whole thing is a ploy by a country that is economically in desperate straights. If we did the humane kind of outreach right now, instead of the drumbeating, this would go away in a heartbeat. In fact, that is the gambit being played by the NK's, IMO. But one shouldn't downplay that, as they are desperate and if relief doesn't happen which allows survival, then I believe they will go the way of desperation. And as we saw some 50 years ago, they can play that one well.

But the one thing that must not be overlooked by all of my peace loving friends, is September 11 and the cells that are now being uncovered all over the world. There are 3,000 people dead in one attack. And the network, that has pledged itself to destroying the US, as well as Israel, is not going to go away. In fact, if we changed, and caused Israel (presuming we could) to change, all policies that these folks object to, that would still not cause the attack to cease. These folks have pledged their lives to our destruction. Now, you can talk to me all you would like to about the policies of Bush, and you won't get much disagreement. A foreign policy that I would find agreeable would be much different than the one in place. But, when it comes to attacks on my country, and a desire to destroy my children, I must tell you that I adopt a different response. Just as I demand peace and stability and safety for all the children of this planet, I also demand it for mine. I would do almost anything to attain a peaceful solution for these times, but sacrificing my children's future isn't one of those things. That is thing that always gets lost in these debates. It is easy to talk about what is wrong, but what is the answer. Poking holes in this cowboy's policy is not difficult, but are we supposed to lay back and allow more terroristic attacks that kill thousands. I think not.

Oddly enough, in the days following September 11 I thought this Presidents response was appropriate. I felt that he was correct to go after, in a very focused way, the folks that carried out the attack. But what he has done since, or should I say what his advisors have done since in his name, ais leading us down a very precarious path.

Tough issues. And they demand more thought than the trite little remarks that one often hears during these times. I wish those with a very specific agenda could be forced outside of their comfort zones to answer these more specific questions.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Dec 02 - 12:36 PM

The term World War surely implies some kind of conflict between equals. If you had an event in which some hulking Mike Tyson kicked the shit out of a seven stone weakling who had his or her hands tied behind their back, would you call that a prize fight?

This isn't a World War it's a colonial punitive expedition. On the other hand, if the effect is to encourage most people in the world to hate and despise those seen as responsible, in the long run it might develop into a more even contest. That I assume to be the game plan of the people who planned and carried out September 11th. (Remembering that there is no reason whatsoever to believe that the regime in Iraq had anything whatsoever to do with that, however unpleasant it may be in other ways.)

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: Amos
Date: 28 Dec 02 - 12:47 PM

McGrath:

Colonial? I must demur, sir. I do not believe in premeditated expeditionary warfare, but I do believe that the nation of Iraq would be well served by learning the fine art of representative government and shedding their dictatorship. Nothing colonial about it.   The notional issue of WMD is not a colonial issue either. It is a possible serious life-threatening factor to unknown millions of souls around the planet -- perhaps Kurds, perhaps yanks. But the problem is that the facts are not known. Those that are asserted as known are not put on the public record. That makes it problematic. Absent those facts the posturing of military might is murderous.

There is no question about the profile of the dictator. He's as sensible a leader as Adolph Hitler was. I have no idea whether he is as massive a threat militarily as Bushwah claims, and that is why I am so pissed at our Resident. I dislike not being trusted as a citizen by what appears to be a dyslexic, subliterate, historically-ignorant power clique.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: *daylia*
Date: 28 Dec 02 - 12:53 PM

Big Mick, you like that word 'trite' eh? That'll learn me for being 'apologetic' about my position!

"Love thy neighbour as I have loved you". Pretty trite, I guess. Laughable, even! But that doesn't mean it's not true. Or that it's not the ONLY solution to endless warring and avarice. If everyone directly involved cared to APPLY it to the specific situations so well outlined in the posts above, that is.

The problem with truth is that it's SO 'trite' people write it off, if they choose to listen to it at all. Pilate, at least, admitted his real ignorance - in spite of all his wordly knowledge and influence - when he asked "Truth? What is truth?"

And the Condemned One gave him the only answer he could understand.

Silence.



daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: Ebbie
Date: 28 Dec 02 - 01:32 PM

I'm not fond of the word 'trite' in discussions. Concern, anxiety, even fear may be well articulated or poorly- but don't give me 'trite'. I'm in the same world as you, faced with the same results from the same actions and reactions.

To be fair, I suspect Big Mick is not being purposely dismissive. 'Tain't his nature. I think.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Dec 02 - 01:52 PM

[pedant break]

trite
adj., trit·er, trit·est.
1. Lacking power to evoke interest through overuse or repetition; hackneyed.
2. Archaic. Frayed or worn out by use.
[Latin tritus, from past participle of terere, to wear out.]

Trite does not mean "not true." Generally, true statements, especially those which most people agree with, tend to be "trite."

Don Firth

[/pedant break]

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 28 Dec 02 - 02:48 PM

Heh, Daylia, We sang that song in 'chorus' when I was in Junior High, back in th days when 'junior high' had nothing to do with pretsils... I still sing bits and pieces at times...

The closer we get to commitment to war, the more Bush looks like a bad idea... even to conservatives. His threats and postures keep us in line, but as soon as he steps over it, his shameful lack of clothing will be starkly obvious to all onlookers... (like it isn't already...) ttr

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: kendall
Date: 28 Dec 02 - 03:05 PM

They're rioting in Africa
They're starving in Spain
There's hurricanes in Florida
And Texas needs rain.
The whole world is festering with
Unhappy souls,
The French hate the Germans
The Germans hate the Poles
Italians hate Yudoslavs
South Africans hate the Dutch,
And I DON'T LIKE ANYBODY VERY MUCH.

There's rioting in Africa
There's strikes in Iran
What nature doesn't do to us
Will be done by our fellow man.

But, we can be thankful and tranquil and proud
For mans been endowed with a mushroom shaped cloud
And we know for certain that some lovely day
Someone will set the spark off,
AND WE WILL ALL BE BLOWN AWAY.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: Ebbie
Date: 28 Dec 02 - 03:09 PM

'hackneyed', Don, is the use I'm thinkin'. Or 'simplistic' or 'over-obvious' or just plain DUH

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Dec 02 - 04:03 PM

Well put, day-liah.

Yes, Bobert we are at the possible brink of a 3rd World War, simply because the USA is conducting a worldwide policy of such blind hubris and utter unreality that I have seen nothing in history to match it since the "glory days" of the 3rd Reich in the late 30's actually managing to convince its population that Poland was a threat to Germany, and that Poland had attacked Germany first!

It's that unreal. Most Americans don't see it, because they live in a self-created media bubble. Everyone else around the world sees it, but they don't know what to do about it, because they are not armed like the USA is. It is the USA whose weapons of mass destruction terrify the entire world.

In just this same way, everyone but the Germans could see what was afoot in the late 30's, but they simply didn't know what to do about it.

To you Americans who will certainly disagree with my assessment, I say: fine. I know you are good people with your own understanding of what is going on. So were most Germans good people in 1939. And they were brave and patriotic too, just like you...but their government was wrong. (Let me remind you that it was almost certainly anti-Nazi terrorists who blew up the Hindenburg Zeppelin...although the Nazis chose to look upon it officially as an "accident"...for their own propaganda reasons. That was the well-planned WTC attack of its day. That and the burning of the Reichstag...arranged secretly by the Nazis and blamed on "Communists" in order to allow Hitler to panic the German population into granting him emergency powers which were never rescinded.)

If there is a major war, it will start with local conflicts in small countries, which will have unforeseen consequences...and will spread and involve more countries. It will then inexorably draw in larger powers, such as India, Russia, China, and Western Europe...as they see their own crucial strategic interests threatened. The nuclear genie will come out of the bottle. Only where and when, is the question...

And it may end with most of the world (most notably, China) fighting the USA, just as most of the world was fighting Germany by 1943. It may take them a few years to prepare in that case, but they will do it if they feel they have to.

Whether or not the USA "wins" this war, it will be an utter disaster for the whole world.

I hope none of this happens. I hope Bush abandons his war plans. Canada is too damned close to the USA. I may just move to Trinidad...

I wouldn't dare move to Cuba (though it's a great place). I figure the USA will find some excuse sooner or later to invade them or destroy them...that's why. The USA is unlikely to invade Trinidad.

I met not one person in Trinidad who thinks there is any sane or justifiable reason for an American attack on Iraq. Not one. There is much concern about war there, and the general opinion is that America is behaving in an irrational and potentially disastrous fashion, in terms of the real interests of the entire human race.

You know, people can honestly be wrong and never see it.

Day-liah is right, in the simple truth she stated. There is no justification for planning wars on our fellow human beings when there are other alternatives, and there always are other alternatives.

Even once a war is underway, it is always possible to negotiate and stop it. If you care to, that is...

But if you seek only victory, well, that's another matter. Victory over whom? There is only ONE human race on this planet.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: DougR
Date: 28 Dec 02 - 04:10 PM

Geeze. Most of you folks are are great crepe hangers. I agree with Amos though. I think we are already in a World War. The terrorists are the enemy though, not our government as so many of you wish to believe. The terrorist threat is a world-wide one, as has already been evidenced. It's a shame that our leaders didn't recognize the threat for what it was many years ago. Perhaps it could have been nipped in the bud.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: *daylia*
Date: 28 Dec 02 - 05:02 PM

"The terrorists are the enemy though, not our government as so many of you wish to believe"

When you point your finger at someone else, there's always three more pointing right back at YOU.

If it weren't for American/European interference and megalomaniac attempts to control the Middle East (and 'all the riches buried there' - as the song goes) for at least the last 5 decades, Sept 11 would NEVER have happened and the current situation would NOT exist today. The terrorists - and their weapons - are a direct result of 'our' own greed and violence in countries where WE HAVE NO BUSINESS (except the business of economic and political exploitation and domination).

I agree with Little Hawk. I mean no offense to the American people, or any individual Americans - but their government's foreign policies (and I don't mean just the current gov't, although it's probably the worst one yet) has brought this on themselves.

I'm ashamed that my own gov't just follows Bush's lead, like a bunch of rats following an insane 'Pied Piper'. And I really resent being dragged into their never-ending bloody attempts at world domination.

"Living next to the United States is in some ways like sleeping with an elephant. No matter how friendly and even-tempered the beast, one is affected by every twitch and grunt."
            
                  -Pierre Elliot Trudeau - (former Canadian PM)

"Canada and Mexico, as the saying goes, have one common problem BETWEEN them".

                  - J.C.M. Oglesby - (Canadian historian)

Enough already. I'll get back to practicing love-thy-neighbour now. Sorry about the lapse.

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Dec 02 - 05:19 PM

An attack on Iraq won't be an attack on "terrorism". There is no evidence whatsoever that Iraq had anything to do with the events of September 11th in New York and Washington, or the events of November 12th in Bali and so on and so forth. Like many countries, including Britain, the United States, Russia and Israel (for starters) the government in Iraq has been guilty of actions which can very properly be described as "terrorist", but that is another matter.

So far no convincing evidence has been produced that Iraq currently possesses weapons of mass destruction, or has any ability or wish to use such weapons against other countries.

Talking about this as if it were part of "a war against terrorism" is poppycock. What it is is, a cynical determination to use the widespread revulsion against these appalling atrocities as a lever to enable those in power in Washington to carry out an attack on a relatively very much weaker country which was already on the agenda, for reasons which have nothing to do with "a war against terrorism", and a lot to do with controlling that part of the world, and ensuring that its natural resources are available.

And that is what I mean, Amos, by classing it as a latter-day example of a classical "colonial war" (which were often against extremely unpleasant regimes) rather than as comparable to the World Wars. The essential thing about those is that they were in some sense wars between equals, and at this stage that is the last thing that can be said about what is in front of us.

In the longer run one of the consequences of what happens could well be to change that, and that is really frightening. And that I believe is the game plan of those who set things in motion on September 11th - and they are winning. In which case it will retrospectivey be possible to define that as the opening salvoes in a Third World War.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Dec 02 - 06:01 PM

Little Hawk, a couple of people here, including myself, have tried to point out the similarities you point out—including the wording of the Patriot Act and stipulations of the Homeland Security Act, parts of which are disturbingly similar to what newly elected Chancellor Hitler got President Paul von Hindenberg to sign off on in 1933—and got shat upon for being negativistic and dismal, if not downright paranoid. After all, "this is AMERICA! It can't happen here!!"

Well . . . maybe not. But Bush, Ashcroft, Poindexter, et al, have opened the door.

I'm forced to agree with what you just said. The parallels should be obvious to anyone with two brain cells to rub together. But I suggest you put on your boots and open your umbrella, 'cause you're probably in for a deluge.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 28 Dec 02 - 06:03 PM

I sure do appreciate hearing veiws and gaining perspectives from outside the US... It seems the dark forces have the media all sewn up here in the states... It's all show business, untill shots are fired... and then it's business of a deadly serious nature.

"...Brought to you by,... the commercial interests of a few people who will undoubtedly see no action in any war whatsoever"... but will stand to profit beyond your wildest dreams... ttr

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Dec 02 - 07:01 PM

Yeah, guys. I don't intend to spend too much more of my time and energy stating here things that are so obvious to most of the world that they hardly need to be said. Neither would I have wasted much time discussing the merits of human compassion and mercy with Hitler, Goebbles, and Goering as they set out to "save" the World from the so-called international Jewish-Communist conspiracy they dreamed up (and fervently believed in!).

The War On Terrorism is just as phony as that was. It's a scam. Your North American TV commentaries on the world situation are a sad joke, believable only on their own turf, outrageous outside of it. America is the most feared nation on Earth.

I hope I am still alive to help pick up the pieces after it's over, but if I'm not, well, my soul will be doing just fine.

Let me wish you all good luck and peace and prosperity, wherever you may be living. Work for peace if you can. That's my advice.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: Ebbie
Date: 28 Dec 02 - 10:04 PM

Someone (Mary McGrory? Molly Ivins? Helen Thomas? I think it was Thomas.) wrote that when Bush said 'We may have to make war in order to preserve peace', that was not only evocative of '1984', but lifted straight out of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: Troll
Date: 28 Dec 02 - 10:25 PM

It's so nice to know that some people have sources of intelligence that reliably inform them of the actual situation- political, social, and military- in countries like Iraq and North Korea, especially since these sources do not seem to be available to the American or British Governments.
I'm speaking, of course, about statments decrying the idea that Iraq has WMDs or sponsors terrorism. They speak as though this is common knowledge, yet the governments of the two countries who- in their eyes at least- seem hell-bent on war do not!
If you have this information in hard, solid form, and from the certainty of your statments you surely must, sahre it with your respective governments! Publish it on the internet. Send it to your representatives. Alert the media that YOU have the PROOF that is needed to halt Armageddon.
Or shut up.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: Troll
Date: 28 Dec 02 - 10:35 PM

Please understand that, in my preceeding post, I was not denigrating ANYONES right to protest the possibility of war.
My argument is with those who make "everyone knows" claims when everyone actually knows no such thing.
"Everyone hopes" is
NOT the same thing.
Until you can bring proof to the table, wishing doesn't make it so. The Government, ladies and gentlemen has sources that we aren't privy to and it is just possible that Bush and Blair know things we don't.
So protest their actions, but don't assume divine guidence because your cause is just and pure.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: Stephen L. Rich
Date: 29 Dec 02 - 06:58 AM

We are not at the doorstep of WW III ! We are standing by the hall closet choosing a hanger for our coat.

Stephen Lee

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: kendall
Date: 29 Dec 02 - 08:22 AM

Troll, I can bring as much proof to the table as Bush and his henchmen can.

Jr. will have his war no matter what. How the hell does he expect Iraq to prove a negative? How can they prove they DONT have WMD?

N. Korea is a far greATER threat thAn Iraq, we KNOW they have nuclear weapons, and that they hate us enough to use them. Their leader is as crazy as a shithouse rat. Man, what a world we have invented, a whacko in N. Korea, a slimebag dictator Iraq and a sociopath here.

LH, you are right on the money; sure you didn't vote for Bush, but, guess what? NEITHER DID I!

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Dec 02 - 08:35 AM

The trouble is, I don't believe or trust these people.

We keep on being told "how can you believe Saddam Hussein with his record of lying" - and that's true enough of him, but it's also true of our own governments, both historically, and as regards the individuals concerned.

They won't produce the evidence on which their judgements are said to be based. The reports which have been released are full of holes and evasions and ambiguities. So it has to be down to trust - and there's no adequate grounds for that trust.

If the UN inspectors report that they have found convincing evidence of weapons of mass destruction being stored and deployed, that's one thing. But it hasn't happened yet - and it is noteworthy that there are already efforts in the US media anyway seeking to discredit the UN inspectors, in preparation, it seems likely, to disregarding what they report.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Dec 02 - 08:59 AM

As for Bush and voting - remember most Americans didn't vote for anyone, more Americans voted for Gore (and of course if there were world elections for who should be in charge of the future of the planet his vote...) Not an overwhelming mandate for anything.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Dec 02 - 10:05 AM

McGrath:

I agree with you, my friend.

Pick just about any issue and you will find the same policy by Bush and Co. LIES! Nothing but LIES! Told often and told LOUDLY.

Any issue. Education. Welfare. The economy. Foreiegn policy>

LIES, LIES and more LIES.

The real "axis of evil" is BUSH, CHENEY and RUMSFIELD!

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: Celtic Soul
Date: 29 Dec 02 - 10:35 AM

Bobert? Do you really think Clinton was any better? Different yes...but all he was was just another flavour of evil. How about making China, with it's atrocious human rights violations, *permanent* "Most favored Nation" status? How about the fact that he was directing our eyes to Iraq that summer when the heat was first turned on him over the sex scandal? Doesn't anyone remember that? He's *no* different than Bush...he'd have gone to war if not for a little blue dress.   

They are *all* in someones pocket. They all bow to some sort of greed, whether it be monitary, power or both. Politicians all suck, and I am afraid we are running out of statesmen rather fast the world over.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: allanwill
Date: 29 Dec 02 - 10:42 AM

Well. it seems that at least in Kenya, the overthrow of a "dictatorial" government has been achieved comparitively peacefully and legally through a democratic vote.

Allan

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Dec 02 - 11:29 AM

I didn't notice anyone saying anything favourable about Clinton. If someone pointed out that smoking is bad for the health what relevance would it be, for example, to point out that eating junk food is bad for you too?

Bush and Clinton have both been very bad for the political health of the country that was entrusted to them (though "entrusted" is perhaps not the word for for what happened in November and December 2000. That'd be a bit like saying you were "entrusted" with someone's watch because you stole it off them.)

Subject: RE: BS: Are we at the doorstep of World War III?
From: Troll
Date: 29 Dec 02 - 11:42 AM

Kendall, if you've got the goods, trot 'em out. Otherwise...
Bobert, how do you manage it? Post after post with nothing of substance said. This time you used 55 words to churn out the same tired rant with, as usual, no proof save your own predjudice.
You are in danger of becoming the noise that you make.
As I said before, if you've got it, put it on the table.

troll