The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: Snuffy
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 02:25 PM

only half!

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 04:38 PM

lester ,you have a different point of view to me ,but there is no need to be insulting.

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: Marje
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 04:40 PM

I agree with the points made by Lynne in a couple of posts above.
I prefer to watch men dance morris, but am happy to watch mixed or women's sides too. But Morris-ey, you're so right about Bad Border being the lazy unisex option, it can be toe-curlingly embarrassing to watch, and is a world away from the likes of Wild Hunt.

I don't think it would be wise for anyone to try to change the all-male or all-female policy of certain sides, because it's not just a case of dancing well or badly. Women dance differently, just as they sing differently and talk differently. Some mixed sides can accommodate this quite well, but the best single-sex sides display an inherent maleness or femaleness in their dancing that would be diluted if they were to dance as a mixed side. And I really don't like seeing women in traditional men's Cotswold gear - those breeches and tucked-in shirts look awful on most women. It's almost as bad as putting a man in a Mother-Goose-style dress to dance Garland.

So I have no problem with Ring sides continuing to be all male. I do find it offensive when they refuse to dance at the same stand as women (and Lynne's is not the only instance of this I've come across) but I'm relieved to hear this isn't widespread. I'm all for a bit of diversity in morris and can't see the problem with single-sex and mixed-sex sides coexisting and offering a choice.

Marje

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's hea
From: Folkiedave
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 05:00 PM

Bang on Marje - IMHO.

I haven't seen a good mixed Cotswold side - seen a couple of excellent single sex ones - Pecsaetan and Windsor of course.

Seen some men's sides who's dancing would be put to shame by either of those teams and IMHO many of the best male sides are not members of the ring. Teams whose dancing I like to think is good.....I like to think a lot of.....Great Western, Berkshire Bedlams, Outside Capering Crew, Redbournestoke, Chingford, my own side Sheffield City Morris etc.

But those black trousers look really good on Pecsaetan.

http://www.pecsaetan.co.uk/gallery

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 05:34 PM

A change in policy can never be forced on anyone,it is only likely to happen if there are not enough men to make up a side.,
What did upset me,was to see a male morris side dancing in Bantry in Ireland,their dancing was poor, I thought what a shame a good side are not here,to show English heritage at its best,.what a bad impression, people who have never seen Morris might get,when dancers can hardly get off the floor ,and cant dance in straight lines,or partly in time with the music.

I agree it could equally have been a womens morris side,I have seen a bad one of those recently.
Ring members,Refusing to dance with female musicians,and refusing to dance at the same stand as women ,certainly happened twenty years ago.I hope their attitude has improved,and that it is a thing of the past.,
the very fact that The Morris ring mentions the Morris Federation,and Open Morris is a step in the right direction.

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: Bernard
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 06:20 PM

I think the point of Border is less as a spectacle, more for the enjoyment of the participants.

That said, such sides as Powderkegs, Stone the Crows, et al, are spectacularly fun to watch - their raw enthusiasm coupled with attention to detail stands them apart from some of the 'also rans'... or is that 'also danced'?!

Folkiedave - the Earl of Stamford Morris are a well respected mixed side - and we also have seven very keen under 18s in the side. They were commended recently at Middlewich Folk and Boat Festival...

We regularly do joint 'fun dance outs' with sides such as Adlington Morris and Thelwall, both all male Ring sides.

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: GUEST,Neovo
Date: 02 Aug 07 - 03:27 AM

Cpt Birdseye's latest post is telling - it seems he is basing his entire argument on a 20 year old outdated impression of the Ring. Things have changed in the last 20 years - for the better IMHO and will continue to do so.

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's hea
From: Folkiedave
Date: 02 Aug 07 - 03:40 AM

I was trying not to be too dogmatic - believe it or not - which is why I said "Cotswold" since I have seen good mixed NW and border sides. And plenty of women;s sides have good young dancers under 20 - but a lot of the men's sides struggle - I know we do, mainly because most of us had daughters and not sons!!

Sheffield City danced with a ring side two weeks ago, and with a ring side and women's side together only three weeks ago.

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Aug 07 - 04:23 AM

Neovo,what are you talking about,my OP is quite clear,it is a question.Questions are asked to get information.
Marje asked me for my opinion,I stated that I preferred to see good dancers ,regardless of gender,whether they be mixed or otherwise.
I started this post to get more information about how the morris ring is today,the best way to get information is to ask.
I do not have an impression of the Morris ring today,thats why I am asking,however history happened and the Morris ring were very anti women dancing[fact],that is what I stated,I ALSO said the fact they mentioned the FED AND OPEN MORRIS on their websiste indicated a change.
I try and use this forum to get up to date information[I live in Ireland],I find it rather depressing that matters such as this cannot be discussed in a more pleasant manner.
from some of the contributors,LesB,and lynne, It Seems there is still room for a bit of improvement.

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: Fidjit
Date: 02 Aug 07 - 04:51 AM

I see that Dick still has his wooden spoon.

Chas

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Aug 07 - 06:09 AM

Fidjit.I believe your last comment is known as Flaming.

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: TheSnail
Date: 02 Aug 07 - 06:35 AM

The Captain is obviously a very busy man. He must have missed my posts. I'll try again.

Captain Birdseye

If the side happens to be the only side in an area,and there is no female or mixed side, a dancer is being refused the right to dance.

To your knowledge, has this ever happened?

Some male morris dancers prefer to dance in men only sides. Some female morris dancers prefer to dance in women only sides. Some men and women prefer to dance in mixed sides. All categories are catered for. What is the problem?

Captain Birdseye

I dont have a problem with anything apart from women being excluded by certain morris dance sides from dancing With them because of their gender.

Do you have a problem with men being excluded by certain morris dance sides from dancing With them because of their gender?

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 02 Aug 07 - 06:59 AM

But why does the Captain have a problem with this anyway? He has said he is not a dancer and as he lives in Ireland there are no exclusive Morris teams near him. Or are his local Mummers male-only? If so which organisation do they belong to?

I think we should be told.

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Aug 07 - 07:11 AM

y
Snail here is a little bit of history,quoted from the morris federation.
About the Federation
There was a dramatic rise in the number of women publicly dancing morris in the early 1970s, with several female Cotswold and NorthWest morris sides forming. This followed a period of three or four decades during which a 'male only' climate had been allowed and encouraged to prevail in morris circles. The emergence of female dancers was greeted with some hostility by those who considered it to be 'untraditional'. Only the Carnival Morris of the NorthWest, usually performed by teams of young girls, had continued as an example of public female morris during this time. This itself had been considered a deviation from the 'pure' tradition, rather than a continuation of it, and had been virtually dismissed by some as irrelevant anyway. It must be said that, while morris would appear always to have been a predominantly male pursuit, it was never exclusively so.The idea of an organisation to provide information and moral support for these newly formed women's sides was first mooted in 1973 and, following a period of informal contact, the Women's Morris Federation was officially inaugurated in October 1975.At first, much emphasis was placed on the historical validity of female morris, both by its exponents and its opponents. Later, the opinion expressed by many was that morris dancing should be seen and treated as a living, evolving tradition which of necessity reflects the society in which it plays a part. To try to preserve it exactly as it is at some arbitrary point in time would be to prevent it from taking its natural course, so fossilising it.The Federation thus began as an organisation for female sides only. In 1980, it opened its doors to mixed sides and in 1982 it became open to any morris side, regardless of gender. A year later, the word 'Women's' was dropped from the name. The Federation has always taken the view that the dances themselves are more important than the gender of the dancers who perform them. It seeks to encourage all who are interested to experience the pleasure of morris dancing and to strive for the highest standard of execution of which they are capable.
Snail, why do you think the federation was formed ,because of male hostility,.
from the information, I have received in this discussion the hostility appears to have lessened,
Ihope that answers your first question.
your second question,was explained,in my earlier post when I said that good dancing was more important than gender.
your questions are off topic,and are merely point scoring,IF women had been allowed to dance the morris back in 1970 with male sides,and had not been prevented by morris ring members hostility,the present situation where women are preventing men from joining would not have arisen,and well you know it.
Yes I am busy, I have a gig tonight,and I have Pupils coming for lessons,so my time to waste on this is limited.
I am genuinely pleased to see that many male members of the ring have changed their attitudes and have become more liberal,a shame that a more liberal squire wasnt elected last year,perhaps the progress would have been even quicker ,good luck to you and I hope you keep enjoying the Morris.

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: LesB
Date: 02 Aug 07 - 07:29 AM

"from some of the contributors,LesB,and lynne, It Seems there is still room for a bit of improvement"
I am not advocating a free for all. I am just not particularly comfortable with the male only, all lads together, feeling that ensues. My particular problem is not in intigrating women dancers in the side, ( I see nothing wrong in male & female sides if that is what they want), but that we have a female musician & are therefore banned from ring meetings. As are our spouses if we want to attend the 'feast'.
There is an opinion being expressed that, eventualy, as the old guard retire & numbers of active dancers fall that the Fed & Ring will merge.

Cheers
Les

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Aug 07 - 08:04 AM

the Captain is on tour in England regularly,Only last week he was in the company of Morris dancers,and rappers,he enjoyed the dancing and the real ale[sadly lacking in Ireland],
Morris dancers come from England to Ireland,And have been seen dancing by the Captain,in his locality,.

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: Bill S from Adelaide
Date: 02 Aug 07 - 09:23 AM

In answer to one of the comments, there is a joint annual belly and morris get together at Canberra and in 2007 the morris managed to out-belly the belly dancers to claim the trophy.
This discussion has lasted for decades and still arouses passions, amazing.
I've actually joined the Ring 3 times with 3 sides as well as being squire of a 4th side. I also joined the Women's Morris Fed. One of the sides had a female musician and we refused to go to the Ring meeting if she couldn't go, so we found a meeting where she was away and couldn't go anyway.
I can remember the first revival female side dancing at C#H (Englands Glory) an event that spawned the first women's clog side at Poynton.( Only a coule of blokes walked out, the rest cheered a great performance). I've danced in mixed sides, dual sides (one side but male and female had different repertoires) and male sides. I'm currently squire of a male side that will include females when in kit. I can't dance clog morris because only females do that (though I have been declared an honorary female by a couple of sides!).
Morris is a broad church with room for all sorts but the overriding issue is the quality of the dance. Some mens/womens/mixed sides are very good, some aren't, there are events for men, for women and for both.
Now that's settled let's start to campaign for more women in Welsh Male Voice Choirs!!
Wassail

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: TheSnail
Date: 02 Aug 07 - 09:31 AM

Captain Birdseye

your questions are off topic,and are merely point scoring

They were direct responses to things you had said. How could they be off topic?

To my first question, you went on at some length about the situation thirty years ago. I'm talking about now.

Your second was in response to your statement about people being excluded on the basis of gender; nothing about quality.

So, no, you haven't answered my questions.

Has it occurred to you that some women dance in women only teams because they prefer to do so whether it be for artistic, social or political reasons? Have you asked them? And if they have that choice, why shouldn't men have the same? For those who prefer mixed sides, there are plenty available. All tastes are catered for.

Once again, what is the problem? (Now, not in the seventies.)

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Aug 07 - 08:38 PM

SNAIL.I said if a Morris side[that makes my question hypothetical].
your last question,As regards the situation in the 1970s,yes I have asked women,and the reason was because they wanted to dance and were not allowed to dance with men,some of the morris ring members were hostile and threatened to report teams to the ring,who allowed women to dance with them, so they formed womens sides.
women have that choice now,but that choice was not available until they formed womens sides,The Morris ring was denying them the right to dance with men.[the freedom of association argument,should not have disallowed women rights]
supposing the Morris ring had at that time,not allowed a Dancer to be part of a team,on racial grounds,would that have been ok.
the reason women dance in womens sides now, may have altered,but could still be partly affected by morris history,and the PAST hostility from the Morris Ring.
Your Second Question is in my opinion silly,but since you want my opinion[probably so you can score points in a discussion]I would say that all the time ,Male Morris ring sides insist on preventing women from dancing in a team with them,it has got to be o k,for women sides to do likewise,what is sauce for the Gander is sauce for the Goose .
It is clear from contributors to this discussion,that the Morris Ring has become much more liberal in its views.,and that the old attitude is dying away quickly.
LES b has said that there is an opinion being expressed,that eventually as the old guard retire and numbers of active dancers fall that the Fed and the Ring will merge,.
As the fed have 405 members and the ring 152,the merger could be because of the Morris Rings health, They are standing at about 28 PERCENT.
I have learned a lot from this discussion,and am pleased to hear that a lot of the old reactionary, anti women attitudes are disappearing.

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: TheSnail
Date: 02 Aug 07 - 09:34 PM

So your going to carry on answering my first question with respect to thirty years ago and you can't grasp the idea that women's sides may actually prefer it that way.

Suit yourself.

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: GUEST, Mikefule
Date: 03 Aug 07 - 02:35 AM

"Threatened to report to the Ring..."

Nonsense.

I was at a Ring Meeting many years ago (men of Wight) when a woman came into the room to talk to her husband. One side made a fuss and walked out. Everyone else made her welcome.

The side that had walked out went up to the then Squire of the Ring to register their displeasure. His response was two words, the second of which was "off". I heard it myself.

The Ring has no interest in what Ring sides do at non-Ring events. My side has been dancing with women's and mixed sides for longer than my 24 years of dancing, and we consider ourselves to be active members of the Ring. We do 2 Ring meetings most years, host Ring events and so on.

The Ring is not anti women. A few individuals in it are, and those individuals are considered to be figures of fun by the rest of us.

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Aug 07 - 03:31 AM

I am sorry but I am finally driven to say this. I have the greatest difficulty in deciding whether Captian Birdseye makes any valid points simply because I find his posts almost impossible to read and certainly impossible to read with any speed.

The conventions of grammar, spelling, punctuation, and orderly exposition developed to assist comprehension, and the abandonment of them hinders it.

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Aug 07 - 05:28 AM

Dear, Richard Bridge. You will be pleased to hear, I have now found a grammar check. I hope my future posts will meet with your grammatical satisfaction. When I was at school I deemed it more important to study music than punctuation, I am pleased to say I have had very few complaints about my music and will now try harder with my punctuation, yours suitably chastised.
Punctuation, ignoramus.

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 03 Aug 07 - 06:45 AM

If you didn't use punctuation in your music, it would sound pretty meaningless and nobody would bother to listen to you. Oddly enough, the same is true of prose. I'm sure that you wouldn't insult your (musical) audience by playing incoherent music. The same courtesy extended to your (prose) audience would certainly help us to understand what you are trying to say.

Music and speech -whether heard or physically represented- both require the same disciplines of expression in order to make them coherent and meaningful. Neither is more important than the other; they are, essentially, the same thing.

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Aug 07 - 08:25 AM

Malcolm.an unecessary post.

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: GUEST, Mikefule
Date: 03 Aug 07 - 01:02 PM

Whoah! Posts in a forum now have to be necessary?   What a utilitarian perspective. Let me fetch my simple peasant's garb of sack cloth and tonight I shall sup on gruel. No longer for the world of unnecessary excess and mere frivolity. Come, brothers and sisters, let us sit in silence, and type only messages of great import.

If necessary means essential to the general good, or to the success of the activity in question, then anything that tends to encourage good grammar and punctuation in a forum where the only means of communication is the written word must be necessary.

Now, whether a post from someone who professes not to be a Morris dancer or a potential Morris dancer, bemoaning a supposed problem in the ranks of people who actually are Morris dancers is "necessary"...

But surely the whole point of an internet forum or discussion group is that it is creative and enjoyable. I liked the post comparing grammar and punctuation to music. It was a good point well made.