What is it with the English?

Subject: What is it with the English?
From: The Shambles
Date: 30 May 00 - 04:30 PM

I am just back from a Traditional English folk festival. I have seen English people playing and dancing Irish, Cajun, French, Old Time, and even 'belly' dancing! They seemed to be enjoying themselves and doing it well and it was of great interest to those watching.

There were English people playing and dancing to English (Morris) tunes and they seemed to be enjoying themselves too. They were very serious and earnest about enjoying themselves and they had many books available for sale at the festival, to consult to ensure that they were doing it correctly. There was even an English Music session, which mentioned in the programme, that you would find no Celtic tunes.

It was my impression that the members of the English public were rather mystified by this English music and dance and did not understand it or even appear to enjoy it as much as they did the other forms on display. It did not appear to me that it was 'of them' or 'belonged to them' in any natural way or that there was any link apparent between those participating and those casually watching.

There are world class English performers of every kind of music you could mention, like Blues, Jazz, Indian, Bluegrass, Gamelan and whatever? Why is it that the English appear to play absorb and appreciate other's musical styles so readily and appear to have little natural or general appreciation of their own?

Subject: RE: What is it with the English?
From: GUEST,hollowfox
Date: 30 May 00 - 04:34 PM

The same reason people in the United States haven't got a grip on "Americanfolk music". Or, as my mother put it, "Nobody likes the local beer."

Subject: RE: What is it with the English?
From: scouse
Date: 30 May 00 - 04:45 PM

Seems to me that the Brit's have lost their sense of identity as regards their own Trad.music. I'm a scouser and lived over here in Cloggie land for 20 odd years and I find the Dutch are crazy about any thing Celtic, however ask them to sing one of their own traditional songs and they don't seem to have a clue. I suppose it's the same over there in dear old Blighty. everyone seems to like whatever is one the other side of the fence.

Subject: RE: What is it with the English?
From: GUEST,ella
Date: 30 May 00 - 05:06 PM

it wasn't Chippenham folk festival was it?

By the way - Morris Men drive me potty.

they should be a banned substance - only joking

Ella

PS

I went along on Sunday if it was

Subject: RE: What is it with the English?
From: TerriM
Date: 30 May 00 - 05:22 PM

Is it because morris dancing has assumed a rather comical and 'sad' reputation in England, do you think and anything else by association, perhaps?

Subject: RE: What is it with the English?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 May 00 - 05:23 PM

This weekend the BBC had a big music festival, supposed to be all kinds of music happening live "all around the country" (by which they meant the UK, which isn't "a country" in my book, but that's another matter), over a 24 hour period - but the only trace of folk music was from Northern Ireland - and that was on at 4.30 or so in the morning. English traditional music was nowhere/

As scouse says, it seems the same thing with the Dutch. And I gather it's the same in Norway, where there are some brilliant musical traditions.

It seems a pretty widespread phenomenon for people to despise their own traditional music. There are some places where it doesn't seem to happen quite like that, France and Spain, I get the impression. I've never heard any kind of explanation for it that makes sense. Anybody got any suggestions? Or information about places where it doesn't happen. When I go abroad, I want to hear music that has roots in the place I'm visiting.

Subject: RE: What is it with the English?
From: Bert
Date: 30 May 00 - 06:02 PM

I think that there's more than one reason.
When I went to school in England yonks ago, English folk songs and dances were taught in schools, often by teachers with little or no real knowledge of either. Most of my classmates hated both.
In only one school that I went to, were we fortunate to have a music teacher who loved singing. All the others made singing a chore.
For many years The English Folk Dance and Song Society was run by a crowd of pompous old fogeys who tainted the atmosphere with their bossiness and pedantry.

And then Rock and Roll came along which almost completely absorbed the public's interest in Music and dancing.

Subject: RE: What is it with the English?
From: Ed Pellow
Date: 30 May 00 - 06:18 PM

As an Englishman, I understand and identify with much of what has been said above.

I'm pleased that artists such as Waterson:Carthy and Kate Rusby celebrate their 'English-ness'

Lest we forget, The Beatles were very English, and Hey Jude has certainly become one of the best known (and best) folk songs of the last 50 years.

Ed

Subject: RE: What is it with the English?
From: Jo Taylor
Date: 30 May 00 - 06:31 PM

McGrath, the French are heavily into musique celtique - we have the 'Irish' bars here too. (Which are, incidentally, a welcome oasis in the plethora of French bars clad in formica which close at 9pm.)I'm English, live in Normandy, playing in an band doing 'musique irlandaise' but we slip in quite a lot of English trad., which is my first love... and they don't notice. I mean, they enjoy it along with all the other stuff, not that they don't notice us playing it!

Yes, English people are remarkably ignorant of their own heritage - ask a selection of English people "When is St George's Day?" - most of them will be unable to answer. Echoing Bert, folk music as taught in schools was stultifyingly boring, sanitised, and terribly sweet. To the French (I'm obviously generalising here) all English speaking people are Anglais (or American) and all trad music from the British Isles is Irlandaise! Perhaps an exception is made for bagpipes, which of course are Scottish?:-}

Ella, not all Morris dancers are men (see previous threads). And before you turn up your nose at them - try it! The time I spent as a morris dancer is the fittest I've ever been...

Jo

Subject: RE: What is it with the English?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 30 May 00 - 06:41 PM

Being involved in Morris dancing never got me fit (I was a melodeon player) but it did get me out to some good pubs! I would happily get involved again but the only side left within reach of me tends to be more serious about it than I am - I just liked to view it as an excuse for a good day out and a bit of fun and when we did go away, liked joining in with other musicains but, at least when I was with them, Conwy were very much a keep themselves to themselves group.

Jon

Subject: RE: What is it with the English?
From: Ed Pellow
Date: 30 May 00 - 06:42 PM

The most important musical advance of the 20th century was The Beatles. The Beatles were English. The English have no need to preserve any dead heritage, we just go forward..

Discuss

Ed

(I make no claims as to having written the above)

Subject: RE: What is it with the English?
From: Mbo
Date: 30 May 00 - 06:43 PM

Yes, Beatles RULE!!!

--Mbo

Subject: RE: What is it with the English?
From: The Shambles
Date: 30 May 00 - 06:44 PM

Sorry, yes it was Chippenham. It was prompted in the 'gents', when I overheard a conversation between two locals after the Morris 'man' that had been standing between them had left. They were puzzled but came to the conclusion that it could reasonably do little harm for the few days of the festival.

Subject: RE: What is it with the English?
From: Brendy
Date: 30 May 00 - 06:46 PM

It's a bit like the saying "a prophet is never accepted in his own country", I suppose.
There is no 'indigenous' English architecture, neither (I have heard it said), which is also curious .

B.
(waiting for the plethora of English architecture experts to flail me alive)

Subject: RE: What is it with the English?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 30 May 00 - 06:57 PM

Ed, thread drift but your comments lead me to something that I have wrestled with for years. Beatles songs are known and sung by just about everyone where as folk songs (OK it depends on who's definition on what folk is...) by in large are only known by a small minority - question, has folk got divorced from folks and should these commercial songs be considered folk?

Jon

Subject: RE: What is it with the English?
From: Catlin
Date: 30 May 00 - 08:09 PM

Reading the other posts to this thread, I find I'd like to add my two-penneth worth: A big problem in England does seem to be a distinct image problem. I'm 20 and my parents are both Folkies. The few people of my age who like to listen to folk are, in the main, either music students or who, like me, have been introduced to the music as children in their familes.

This is a problem to some extent, as folk is a 'living' music. It doesn't exist in a vacum. If people of my age become uninterested, we could lose out, as folk needs to be played, and enjoyed to keep alive.

I know there are many, many people that love folk, but I have become slightly worried as I have got older. I have been looking to find other performers to sing and play with and that at least in my area (Yorkshire,UK)there seem to be so few people of my own age who are willing to listen and appreciate the that I love.

There seems to be such an appreciation of our own Traditional music and culture overseas, at least compared to where I live, that I think my best bet is to move abroad to be able to perform the music I enjoy

Catlin

Subject: RE: What is it with the English?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 30 May 00 - 08:15 PM

This article at  Musical Traditions  has a lot of perceptive things to say on the subject:  The Loss of the English Traditions.

Malcolm

Subject: RE: What is it with the English?
From: Frank McGrath
Date: 30 May 00 - 08:40 PM

I don't want (and I'm not qualified) to get into heavy subjects but England is a very complex place and just about everything in it's history and make-up works against its folk traditions.

Here is a brief(ish) list;
(a) extreme social class distinctions (even up to recently)
Royalty, Ruling Class, Upper Class, Upper Middle Class, Middle Class, Servant and Lower Class. The vast majority of the population was Lower Class, where the real folk tradition lived. But their tradition was not "cool" it was quaint at best. Everybody wanted to leave behind their existing class and "better" themselves so a certain stigma was attached to the "goings on" of the lower orders. Folk music=lower class music.

(b) many diverse cultures (French, Cornish, Saxon etc.)
Since the Norman invasions in the 11th c., "English" people, ie., South East England, are really emigrant French. Most of the "real" English were forced North and west into Wales, Cornwall, etc.

(c) worldwide imperial colonisation
This brought about even more diverse cultural pressure on "the tradition" as it freely mixed and mingled with what was already fragmented.

(d) rapid transitions to urbanisation and mechanisation
For a number of centuries the famed English countryside settled down into a stable pattern allowing a tradition to emerge with natural regional variation but with each area sharing portions of the total set. But rapid industrialization, starting in the last century and continuing into the 1960's, decimated the rural populations. There is now no real rural working class so there is no "living" rural folk tradition except for parts of Cornwall etc. "Quaint" Folk Clubs are the keepers of the tradition now.
Those who moved to the urban areas eventually succumbed to the cosmopolitan influences of the towns.
But urban traditions grew such as the Cockney traditions etc. Some of older rural traditions survived in a modified but recognizable form due to the proximity of the rural areas and the strength of the regional tradition, eg. Geordie.

(e) rapid decline in imperial power and collapse of empire
Two world wars and the collapse of the Empire in a span of only 50 years brought massive changes to the land called England. The Middle Class swelled, large influxes of immigrants came from former colonies, rural depopulisation accelerated, "old" industries (mining, textiles, shipbuilding) went into decline and the class structure started to collapse. There wasn't much time for tradition really with so much happening even the urban working class traditions went into freefall.

(f) dismemberment process of Britain via devolution
Britain is now slowly drawing in on itself with devolved governments in Scotland and Wales. "British" culture was always seen as "English" culture and by default Welsh choirs and Scottish bagpipes were "British" and therefore "English". But what of Morris dancers? Yes, this is English.

But English folk traditions have endured so much competition and pressure for so long that it needs time to re-emerge. English people are confused about what is their tradition not to mind what their folk music is. How do you define "being English", for that matter? Just because you were born in London does that make you English – even though your mother is Irish and your father is Jamaican? What is your tradition? Do you see Morris dancing as your tradition? Or rather, how can you see Morris dancing as your tradition?

Martin Carthy and a few others have given England breathing space and have kept a proud and excellent tradition alive. The wealth and organization of the old Empire has much of England's tradition safely archived. Given time and nurturing, English folk music will stand proud again on an equal footing with other folk music cultures. And of course the new branches of the tradition will continue to develop with the multitude of ethnic flavours and influences.

Now that I have offended thousands of people who misunderstand my argument I shall slip away quietly to bed. I have written far too much and far too little such that I have tried to cover as much ground as possible but have had to generalise to the extreme. No, I haven't mentioned English sea shanties etc., etc. Where do I draw the line?

Go on, all the ammunition is there, tear me to shreads.

Goodnight all.

Frank

Subject: RE: What is it with the English?
From: Frank McGrath
Date: 30 May 00 - 08:52 PM

Hey!
While I was writing all "that stuff" Malcolm Douglas posted a link which agrees with many of the points I made. Maybe I'll get off lightly!?

Definitely Goodnight!

Frank

Subject: RE: What is it with the English?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 May 00 - 09:11 PM

The Beatles - well, technically Liverpool is in England. But essentially the Beatles were an Irish band...But I digress.

I think Frank is right in the reasons he gives. But there are countries where the local traditions have been rejected in the same way in respect of which the same factors don't apply and the other way round.

England is good at accepting all kinds of cultural imports, and incorporating them. What I'd hope to see wouldn't be an awakening is some kind of mass reversion to a kind of Englishness in which many/most people aren't rooted, but rather an acceptance of that as one of the elements - but sometimes it seems that the one culture that can't be incorporated is the local one. There seems to be a self hatred there, a rejection of the decent and lovable things about England, in favour of the xenophobia of the football thugs and the front bench politicians.

Subject: RE: What is it with the English?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 30 May 00 - 09:17 PM

Frank McGrath makes some good points, except for this frankly bizarre claim, however:

Since the Norman invasions in the 11th c., "English" people, ie., South East England, are really emigrant French.

Not so!  All the Norman Conquest did was import a new "top layer" of aristocracy, and an "official" administrative language; very few Norman French (who were in any case mostly immigrants -a few generations back- from Scandinavia) actually came to live here, as compared to the existing population, who mostly stayed put.  Historically, cultures that migrate to these islands either assimilate the previous population (as in the case of the Anglo-Saxon invasion of Celtic Britain) or are themselves assimilated (as in most other cases so far, including the Danish and Norman invasions) and wind up adopting the local language.

None of this, of course, has any bearing on the discussion or on the substance of the article I pointed to; just couldn't let it go unchallenged.  You know how it is.

Malcolm

Subject: RE: What is it with the English?
From: Frank McGrath
Date: 30 May 00 - 09:27 PM

Now Malcom you should never let facts spoil good bullshit. I have so much fun pissing English people off with that line that I just insist on it being true - even if it isn't. To date you are one of the few to question this "fact".
Spoilsport!

NOW I'm going to bed.

Frank

Subject: RE: What is it with the English?
From: GUEST,Dan-Nova Scotia
Date: 30 May 00 - 10:55 PM

I think you might be looking in the wrong places. Currently there are people like Brian Peters, Jez Lowe, Dave Webber & Annie Fentiman, Johnny Collins, not to mention Nic Jones, Martin Carthy & Dave Swarbrick, (I could go on) all of whom sing a majority of English Folk songs. And if you get to a singers night at most folk clubs you will find that many are singing the trad songs as well as songs they have written. I have found incredible singers and guitarists who only do it for the fun of it. I think the singers nights in many places might surprise you. And also try to check out some of the festivals that are known as singers festivals. Good Luck and enjoy.

Subject: RE: What is it with the English?
From: Bill D
Date: 30 May 00 - 11:32 PM

late to the thread..and since most of my points have already been made better than I could, I'll just say...

" The most important musical advance of the 20th century was The Beatles. "....pooh! you may like 'em, you may NOT...but that's like saying that McDonalds is the most important culinary advance of the 20th century...most NOTICABLE, perhaps, but give me a break!

Subject: RE: What is it with the English?
From: Mbo
Date: 30 May 00 - 11:46 PM

Catlin, you gotta get with the JUG gang! There right there in your own back yard!

--Mbo

Subject: RE: What is it with the English?
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 31 May 00 - 03:21 AM

The Beatles were inspired and influenced by music - R&B, Rock'n'roll, Blues, etc. - bought in from the US by friends, relatives, a guy you met in a pub, who'd just come from there, Liverpool being a major seaport; notably that fine traditional musician Buddy Holly. Not first-hand English, although some English music had crossed the other way in the previous century. Most of the emigrants were Irish and Scottish, of course; not forgetting the African (and Brit too) slaves in the plantations.

Steve

Subject: RE: What is it with the English?
From: GUEST,Roger the skiffler
Date: 31 May 00 - 04:25 AM

My musical tastes (jazz, blues, skiffle, '50s R&R) are American-based and my folk interest includes more American, Caribbean and "Celtic" than English but I blame that on being brought up in Birmingham where most of my teachers were Welsh or Scots and there was a large Irish and Caribbean population. American seem to idenify themselves with the folk culture of their imigrant ancestors, rather than "American" , so perhaps Brits abroad do the same? I'll leave Sultan Al-Hansell to answer that one, I've no deep insights (no change there then!).
RtS

Subject: RE: What is it with the English?
From: Ella who is Sooze
Date: 31 May 00 - 04:43 AM

I thought so Shambles.

I did find a good 'Irish' session in one pub, actually there were two sessions in the one pub.

It was a nice pub too.

Though I did go into the hotel up from the Four Seasons pub, and sat in on a session there. But to be honest they were all so far up their own behinds in that session that they were not being inclusive.

They ignored newcomers, even to the extent to turn their backs on us and others. Played the same tunes over about 3 different times. And were just not friendly. It was the most bad vibed session ever.

Whereas the Old Road tavern, had a lovely friendly inclusive atmostphere. Alot of the musicians there I knew already from all over the place (I get around).

And the music was excellent, and whoever you were sat next to were friendly chatty and into introducing themselves. Poles apart from the unfriendly session round the corner.

And Jo. I know that there are women morris dancers, the term Morris Men is just an easy descriptive generalisation, and there is just not enough time to get PC about this or we start getting silly.

I know quite a few women who are morris dancers.

And to say that English people don't know alot about their heritage is a huge sweeping generalisation, and simply is not true.

The whole matter just doesnt boil down to whether an English person can pin point one day in the diary for St Georges day, there is a larger heritage to understand. And that being the case I think you have a very poor view of how much English people understand.

As for trying out Morris Dancing. Thanks but no thanks, not for me, I will stick to my own tradition, Irish dancing. I am not turnin up my nose at it - it's another form of folk expression - and for those who do it you can see the enjoy it.

I just think it looks funny with the costumes (of loads of different types) and all in all the music, and the dancing is just a little to stayed for my liking.

At the end of the day, it is all down to personal tastes.

And yes Shambles, I can see how much it would confuse the locals, having all those Morris Men oops sorry and women descending on Chippenham for the day.

Regards

Ella

Subject: RE: What is it with the English?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 May 00 - 06:24 AM

e dancing is just a little too staid for my liking" - either you've not come across the wilder end of Morris, or you must be a very wild dancer indeed yourself, ella.

The Australians used to talk about "the Colonial Cringe" - maybe they still do. That meant running themselves down in comparison with England/Britain. What's up with the English is something you could call "the Ex-imperial Cringe", I suppose - it's just as creepy.

And the thing with inferiority complexes, as I understand the concept, is that people suffering from them are liable to act brash and arrogant and push themselves forward - and that sounds horribly familiar if you look at English hooligans, the English tabloid press, and a lot of English politicians in "populist" mode. The English traditions I'm talking about, ranging from Morris to Music Hall, are/were predominently self-mocking and mellow affairs, a million miles removed from that kind of thing.

But, as I said above, it's not just the English, this is something you get in a lot other countries as well, some with very different histories.

Subject: RE: What is it with the English?
From: Spider Tom
Date: 31 May 00 - 07:27 AM

FOLK is a four letter word!
To many young people (who are in my opinion extremely conservative),it conjurs up images of dullness and the staleness, of a time they have no thoughts of.
we know the truth is different to this but who searches for truth in these times as media blitzes cut down heroes like trees and spread lies like butter.
I believe the problem lies in the fact that most youth are made felt like they are something outside society, not within.
Also so many folkies seem to dwell only on the past, singing songs no one could identify with unless they lived in a time warp, I sing songs about things I know as do many of you, that is the way forward, but how to get the young to listen with an open mind?
Have they EVER?
Spider Tom (folking amazed)

Subject: RE: What is it with the English?
From: GUEST,A wandering minstrel
Date: 31 May 00 - 08:43 AM

I think it more the case that youngsters have other interests. I am sorry in a way that English traditional music seems to be the preserve of bearded middle-aged men in hairy sweaters (Oh my god I'm a living stereotype!!!) certainly the instant gratification which is an american gift to lifestyles precludes the patience needed to take time and learn tradition.

You get the young to listen by singing the songs as my father started me off into sea shanties.

Hi Malcolm, are you the Malcolm of Malcolm and Moira??

Subject: RE: What is it with the English?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 31 May 00 - 08:56 AM

No, a different one entirely!

Malcolm

Subject: RE: What is it with the English?
From: GUEST,A wandering mistrel
Date: 31 May 00 - 09:01 AM

Ah!

well hello anyway

Subject: RE: What is it with the English?
From: GUEST,Auxiris
Date: 31 May 00 - 10:50 AM

Hello, everyone. Interesting discussion. Let me just say that I think that there will always be people who take their fun very seriously and work really hard at it. I have run across several examples of this type of " folkie " if I may use the term in England, but also in America, Canada, France and even Ireland (though they seem to be rare in the Emerald Isle). As far as the future of English folk music goes, I dare say it's in good hands. If you have a doubt, have a listen to (just for example) Maggie Holland's glorious song, " A Place Called England ". My very best wishes to all.

Cheers, Aux

Subject: RE: What is it with the English?
From: The Shambles
Date: 31 May 00 - 10:55 AM

Dan-Nova Scotia.

The point I am making is not that there are not English songs and music being performed and very well, but that this type of narrowly defined music is not and will not now link itself to the English people. This music seems to be defined, not by what is performed but by what and who is excluded from it.

At song sessions in England, I don't know how many times I have a Beatles song introduced as "I know this is not folk" or commented on afterwards by "I thought this was a folk session". This after everyone had joined in with a song that had very much gone through the folk process and resembled little the recorded versions of the song.

It is furthering the idea that traditional music is digging up the past, looking back at the way that we did it, rather than continuing the way we do it now, reflecting the present. Other countries do manage to do this.

Does there have to be exclusive English tunes only sessions? Can they not stand the competition from more robust and exciting Irish and American tunes? Can the good sea songs not compete with the Beatles? English tunes have 'balls' too, but they are too often played (usually collectively on melodeons) like museum pieces, and as if those 'balls' had been cut off.

Could it be that these English tunes, unlike the Irish and American ones are learnt and studied more from books and sound like they were too? The atmosphere, in some these English only sessions, being more like a religious revival meeting than a joyful celebration of traditional music. Is it not like expecting the whole of the population to share the excitement of train-spotting?

Thanks for your contribution Frank, for that just about covered it. I will come back to your post. As for that other McGrath, The Beatles an Irish band?……………. Please leave us something to be proud of Kevin…. You will pay for that one.

They were first a 'skiffle' group. The very best example of what the English seem to do best. Taking the elements from all the music they were hearing and turning it in to something different and of lasting quality.

Subject: RE: What is it with the English?
From: Jim Krause
Date: 31 May 00 - 12:26 PM

Shambles, perhaps the answer might be the same one as to why Scott Joplin, Louis Chauvin, and all the other American ragtime composers were reviled and shunned by the musical establishment a century ago, and why jazz could in the early days be found on the "bad side of town." Same thing happened in the early days of rock 'n' roll, and country music was thought to be the province of half-witted, toothless, moonshine drinkin', banjo pickin', barefooted, hillbillies. Heck, I can remember when folk music and possession of a guitar was tantamount to admitting membership in the nearest Communist Marching Band and Chowder Society. This response doesn't answer the question of why, directly. I've never understood why folks are embarrassed by their own ethnic cultures, and why others are viewed as more chic, sexy, or cool.

Subject: RE: What is it with the English?
From: Bert
Date: 31 May 00 - 01:48 PM

Well Skiff me ol' matey cock.
The English abroad, unfortunately have the habit of taking a little bit of England along with them. Very few of my English friends in Bahrain even noticed the similarity between Arabic music and dancing and English folk music and Morris Dancing.

During the celebrations of Ashur, the Shias paraded in the streets with music and dancing. Their drum was the spitting image of a bodhran. They even had a hobby horse that would have done any English Morris team proud. It was interesting to note that the hobby horse was intended to mock the British military.

Bukara InshAllah, Sultan Al-Hansell.

Subject: RE: What is it with the English?
From: Grab
Date: 31 May 00 - 02:31 PM

Wandering Minstrel forgot to mention the finger in the ear and singing through your nose.

And there's the problem (mentioned somewhere in the thread - I can't be arsed to look it up, so credit to whoever you are) that the songs are done in school, and taught to kids at an early age. And at that stage the songs become nursery rhymes and lose any relevance. Would you go on stage and sing "Baa baa black sheep"? Of course not. But in a foreign language, "Baa baa black sheep" might be perfectly acceptable as a folk song of that country. The most obvious examples of this are Waltzing Matilda and Molly Malone, and Streets of London is going the same way. Some Beatles songs (especially the more 'cheesy' ones like Yellow Submarine and Octopus's Garden) may already be there - every kiddy's songbook I've seen features Yellow Submarine.

It used (19th c) to be popular to say jigs were Irish and reels were Scottish, regardless of actual origin - I guess the same way you'd expect rap artists today to be black/coloured. So maybe that's pushed it along - Irish/English/Scottish music is more a style than a matter of where the song came from. A fiddle book I've got says that one of the reels in it was actually listed in a Victorian music book published in Scotland as an English reel, even though it sounds as Scottish as you like. Name escapes me ATM - I'll look it up.

Grab.

Subject: RE: What is it with the English?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 May 00 - 02:54 PM

Can't see the finger in the ear as being a factor really - it's hardly a particularly English thing. Moreover anyone who thinks it's just an affectation has obviously never tried singing unaccompanied in a crowded environment. It's the only way you can hear yourself, and hearing what you sound like is quite a good idea for a singer.

There are two separate questions being mixed up here. One is why folk music of any is often not valued by that many people, especially young people. The other question is why so many people who are drawn to folk music ignore the traditions of their own locality, in favour of music from far away, especially perhaps Irish music. And that isn't particularly English - in fact it's probably less true in England than it is in many European countries.

And it doesn't do just to say that Irish music is better than the others (though it's tempting) - pretty well every country and region has great stuff there, ignored. We've had threads on the Mudcat about people lookig for music sessions in all sorts of places, and the answers all seem to be about Irish sessions in Stavanger and Hong Kong and Vladivostock and all. (I may exaggerate slightly here. But probably not.)

Subject: RE: What is it with the English?
From: Kim C
Date: 31 May 00 - 03:11 PM

I don't know, I love the English and I love the Beatles.

When I was in England about 12 years ago now (and been pining to go back ever since), I was accosted everytime I told someone I was from Nashville. "Oh, Nashville! I love country music!" I couldn't get away from some of these people. I mean, it was nice to talk to them and all, but I was trying to get AWAY from country music.

Is there really any such thing as purely American folk music? Not trying to start an argy-bargy - this is a question I have asked myself often.

Subject: RE: What is it with the English?
From:
Date: 31 May 00 - 04:42 PM

In England we need to have 'English only' sessions precisely because it is not so well known. When someone in England starts a French session, everyone knows that it's going to be French tunes with HGs/Pipes etc. but start an English session and it always ends up being an Irish one or taken over by English people playing Irish music. That is why John Kirkpatrick is so important to us, as he is the only world class player that plays English music, if it wasn't for him we would hardly know that we had any folk tunes, we have tunes dating back to the 1560s, we have fiddler's tune books from the 18th.C we have The Old Swan Band who made it their business to get in touch with Trad. players in the early 70s and record them, and we have a thriving English music sub-culture that keeps away from all things Irish, lets face it, I think we've all had enough of Irish music by now. Always remember: WE always play THEIR music; They never play ours. Things are going to change.............

Nick Jones

Subject: RE: What is it with the English?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 May 00 - 07:22 PM

The ould inferiority complex strikes again, friend Boxman. Don't be so defensive about it, just play the bloody music, it's good music.

Of course Irish musicians play English muisc, and sing English songs. It's just that it starts sounding Irish in the process. For God's sake, the Wild Rover is a Norfolk version of a song that noone ever sang in Ireland until the Dubliners. Living traditions borrow and steal - and transform what they borrow and steal.

Music moves around. Half the best Morris tunes come from Scotland or Ireland or elsewhere to begin with. They end up sounding extremely English. As is only right and proper.

Mind if you think John Kirkpatrick is the only world class player playing English music, I don't know where you've been hiding. I'd probably sooner listen to him than any other, but he's hardly alone.

Subject: RE: What is it with the English?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 31 May 00 - 11:57 PM

The media have got it into their tiny minds that folk music isn't cool, and so most people don't even get to hear about opportunities to hear fine folk music in their town. How can they know they would like it if they never get to hear it?

All this enthusiasm for "Celtic" "Irlandaise" "Irish" finally took off when the networks allowed the River Dance troupe on TV. The music on their show is mediocre, but it was a revelation to people raised on Beatles, rap and rock. After River Dance, the journalists felt that they had been given permission to talk about Irish music. Not that they are going to go overboard...

As a septagenarian bodhran-player told me, "they are prisoners of pop."

Subject: RE: What is it with the English?
From: catspaw49
Date: 01 Jun 00 - 12:23 AM

Kim....Your question regarding "Pure American Folk" has been mentiones several times in this thread and other places as well. Start a new thread on that question if you like.....careful how you word the title as the "Thread Police" seem to be declaring threads with titles like this one as inappropriate without reading them. Go for something like: Is There Pure American Folk? and don't use the BS tag.

BTW, I have enjoyed reading along on this one......very interesting topic and some equally interesting thoughts on it.

Spaw

Subject: RE: What is it with the English?
From: GUEST,Roger the skiffler
Date: 01 Jun 00 - 04:55 AM

Bert, Effendi, thanks, that was interesting (I mean that most sincerely!). I suppose a hobby horse is easier than a hobby camel to construct. Isn't it true that some UK Morris sides have a "Saracen" character? Seems the global village predated McLuhan by a few centuries. It does seem that while the English are open to musical influences from all over, we don't export it well. Must be something to do with the strong pound! More likely as a society with lots of inward immigration we absorb foreign cultures more readily than some politicans would have us believe. This would parallel the US. I'm in danger of being serious here I better lie down in a dark room for a while.
RtS
:o)
PS On Monday 5th June on BBC Radio2 there is a celebration of Chris Barber's 70th birthday with guests including Lonnie Donegan. If it is anything lke the Barber Band's 40th Anniversary sessions it should be a blast for those of us stuck in the '50s!

Subject: RE: What is it with the English?
From: Ella who is Sooze
Date: 01 Jun 00 - 06:56 AM

Alot of the customs here in the UK can be found in lots of other European and World customs.

This stems right back to when paganism was the thang.

Take prossesional dances, alot of the steps can be found all over the world - and there are similarities in tunes and songs too.

The thing that happened I reckon, was when Christianity came along, they took the things they liked from paganism, and brought them into Christian stories.

Like the hobby horses (which could be the pagan horse god)

Like Wrenning - a fertility thing (poor wrens)

And as paganism was essentially one of the original religions (or whatever) all over the place, then it was only natural that there are simimlarities to be found all over the road.

Oooo too deep for me I will have to go and lie down after that thinking.

Ella

Oh my point...

That yes the English are open to all influences, but everyone has influenced each other at some point in time. Going right back to sacred rites, prossesions and all the mother earth stuff. So, I am not surprised to find similarities between cultures at all. So definately not surprised to find a hobby horse in Bahrain. It's all linked somehow sometime.

oh and double yeah I hope I get to be a septagenarian bodhran player too - prisoners of pop is so spot on, not to mention funny.

Regards

wrong side of twenty five something bodhran/whistle/flute/singer etc Ella

Subject: RE: What is it with the English?
From: The Shambles
Date: 01 Jun 00 - 07:09 AM

The concept of a pure music of any nationality is not one I can accept. The treasure of American music and what I would welcome and describe as English music is, if you like it's impurity. I may have wrongly given the impression that I was in some way interested in the nationality of music. For it is the ability of music to speak to all of us, that means so much to me.

Frank said earlier in this thread:…. "How do you define "being English", for that matter? Just because you were born in London does that make you English – even though your mother is Irish and your father is Jamaican? What is your tradition? Do you see Morris dancing as your tradition? Or rather, how can you see Morris dancing as your tradition?"

My grandfather was Maori but I am English, if I have to chose a nationality. I like the UK, European or even Human Being, far better though as you have to work at those. The other is just an accident of birth and requires no effort and reflects no credit on you, as an individual.

To go back to Frank's point. If I write sing or play, could not what I produce be described as English music? If a third generation English musician of Asian descent, produces music, could that not be described as English music. If both of us are following continuing a tradition of producing such music, could it not be described as English traditional music?

When a group like Edward II, play English traditional tunes on melodeon, with a African/Reggae rhythm section, there is a definite link to all those people watching. That is what I would call English music, along with all of the other strange and wonderful fusion's, that are going to be naturally produced now in every country, when all the different cultures meet.

Which brings us neatly back to American music, which could only reflect all of the elements that have mixed and made the nation. Look at the effect that Blues and Jazz have had and given back to all of the world's music.

It's a process, like a river, not a stagnant pond.

I think what English traditional music and dance is waiting for, is the English Riverdance………It should be called Puddledance.

Subject: RE: What is it with the English?
From: Ritchie
Date: 01 Jun 00 - 07:44 AM

Ive been wanting to write something about the 'musical extravaganza this weekend through out the 'country'.

Music for local people, we don't want any roads here.

The thing that I enjoyed most was that they had five different stages set up on the Newcastle quayside and each one had different types of music being performed there and each was being enjoyed by lot's of different types of people. Not just local people.

The North East is renowned for it's open hearted friendliness infact you can go out on a friday night in any pub and someone will immediately start up a conversation with you and will buy you numerous drinks and at the end of the evening,because it's late and you will have probably missed your last bus home will insist that you go home and spend the night at their place and that will enable you to get home safely next morning .....it's never happened to me mind although it has happened to the wife lot's of times.

local music for local people we don't want any roads here!

regards Ritchie

Subject: RE: What is it with the English?
From: GUEST,A wandering minstrel
Date: 01 Jun 00 - 07:50 AM

I admit to the finger in the ear. (it's cheaper than an feedback loudspeaker as someone above remarks).

Singing through the nose however... I got choral training at school and sing from somewhere much lower! Yes I do posess and play a Bodhran. Welsh tunes mostly!

The trick of English music and indeed any song is the moment when someone under the age of say, 20 says "thats a good song, can i have the words." Then the tradition will go on

Subject: RE: What is it with the English?
From: JohnL
Date: 01 Jun 00 - 08:13 AM

A big problem with Folk in the England is visibility or rather lack of it on TV and radio. Is there really no time for the likes of Martin Carthy and Family, Kate Rusby, Dick Gaughan, Robin Williamson & Clive Palmer, John Martyn, Michael Chapman etc. etc on radio or TV? Great assets to this country but I can count the number of times I have seen them on TV on the fingers of one hand! There's only Radio 2 for a couple of hours a week, which I always seem to miss. I get my information by reading the music press and taking a chance on buying a CD by a new artist, which is hardly ideal – what about all the great ones I probably don't hear! Ireland, Scotland and Wales seem to have stronger cultural identitiesbut at what price? I think the English are vastly more receptive and tolerant as a nation to outside ideas and cultures and all the healthier for it! By the way, I am of Scots/Irish/English origins so I have a foot in each country (which is quite a good trick if you can do it).