Folklore: Is Scots a Language or a Dialect?

Subject: BS: Is Scots a Language or a Dialect?
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Oct 06 - 04:41 AM

"Gaelic or Scots is not spoken in Scotland" - lumping these two together to imply that each is actually a separate language!

Without wishing to court a battle royal, I'm wondering what the general opinion is, at home in Scotland, it's the Scots tongue.

Do most folk consider it to be an actual language in it's own right or does half the country feel it is simply a dialect of English?


The problem is of course, if Scots is in fact only a dialect itself, then Ulster-Scots becomes a dialect of a dialect!

Subject: RE: BS: Is Scots a Language or a Dialect?
From: GUEST,I`M GANNING O`ER
Date: 15 Oct 06 - 06:41 AM

As a Geordie I am also applying for a grant to have Geordie recognised as a language, when working in London I was advised by my Cockney mates to speak English, I also advised them to do the same, Hell blazes were do we stop, the Brummies, the Norfolk-Suffolk swede-bashers,the Cornish pasties, the Devon arrrghs, the Wiltshire moon-rakers, the Hartlepool monkey hangers, please Jock do me a favour and live with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Scots a Language or a Dialect?
From: Tootler
Date: 15 Oct 06 - 06:49 AM

Guest, you need to get one thing straight before this discussion can go any further.

Gaelic is a separate language. It is a Celtic language once widespread in Scotland but now confined pretty much to the Western Isles. Scots is an Anglo Saxon language. Whether it can be considered a separate language from English or whether Scots and English are dialects of one another is an interesting point. Being of Anglo Scottish parentage, I am not sure what the answer is. Certainly "Broad Scots" is pretty much incomprehensible to people from the rest of Britain. But then so is Broad Geordie or Broad Yorkshire or Broad Devon. Also there are different dialects within Scotland. My mother was from Aberdeen and they certainly spoke differently from Edinburgh or Glasgow for example.

This then raises the question when does a dialect become a separate language?

I was reading a book about the Border Reivers recently and it had extensive quotes from writings of the time. While there were differences between the English and Scots in both spelling and grammar, with a little effort both were comprehensible to a modern English reader.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Scots a Language or a Dialect?
From: GUEST,I`m gannin mad
Date: 15 Oct 06 - 08:16 AM

Tootler correct in every detail.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Scots a Language or a Dialect?
From: greg stephens
Date: 15 Oct 06 - 08:21 AM

A language, as they say, is a dialect with a navy (or army, the saying varies).

Subject: RE: BS: Is Scots a Language or a Dialect?
From: mack/misophist
Date: 15 Oct 06 - 09:26 AM

The textbook answer is that it's a dialect if 2 persons of good will and reasonable sense are able to understand each other. Mostly. Years ago, PBS ran a series on the English language and it's dialects. They let the Lowland Scot faction call their dialect a language (clearly incorrect because they were understandable. Mostly) and added that Scots Gaelic was the native tongue of one or two outer islands only. The dialect and the Gaelic were plainly unrelated, except perhaps for loan words.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Scots a Language or a Dialect?
From: GUEST,Anthony
Date: 15 Oct 06 - 09:39 AM

www.electricscotland.com/poetry/purves/Hist_Background.pdf
This article is worth reading and should answer the question posted.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Scots a Language or a Dialect?
From: Bee
Date: 15 Oct 06 - 12:29 PM

There are certainly dialects of British English that this Canadian has trouble understanding. Watching BBC news coverage of a (miners?)strike with a group of Nederlands students in 1971 or '72, I was asked if I could translate the interviews, as the dialect of the interviewees was thick. Couldn't be done. The Dutch kids were better speakers of even BBC English than I in the first place.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Scots a Language or a Dialect?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Oct 06 - 12:48 PM

The textbook answer is that it's a dialect if 2 persons of good will and reasonable sense are able to understand each other.

That would mean Spanish and Italian were dialects. I think the answerr greg quoted is the best rule of thumb - though I'd put it the other way round, "a dialect is a language that does not have an army or navy", to allow for cases like Welsh, or the various Native American languages.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Scots a Language or a Dialect?
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Oct 06 - 12:49 PM

I always thought the Scots were an Irish tribe who settled in Hibernia - hence the name Scotland. The language was obviously anglasised and various regional dialects have evolved to the present day. What do you think?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Scots a Language or a Dialect?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 15 Oct 06 - 12:50 PM

Would a speaker of a Scottish (or any other Englsih) dialect be dubbed or subtitled in British TV?
Some German dialects (Swiss German in particular) are now subtitled in our TV (which I resent).


Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Is Scots a Language or a Dialect?
From: GUEST,Santa
Date: 15 Oct 06 - 01:16 PM

I'd suggest that Scots descended from Northumbrian Anglo-Saxon, whereas English mainly descended from Wessex/Mercian Anglo-Saxon. When a dialect crosses over to become a language it's hard to say, but Scots certainly had an Army, so presumably a navy at the same time. Perhaps it's the case that after initial divergence, the course taken by most languages, it has undergone a reversal of its evolution and now is closer to English than it was 200-300 years ago.

So it started as a dialect of a dialect, then underwent independent development to become a language, and has now returned to being a dialect.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Scots a Language or a Dialect?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Oct 06 - 01:44 PM

Would a speaker of a Scottish (or any other Englsih) dialect be dubbed or subtitled in British TV

Subtitles are generally available in British TV, to help people with hearing loss - and when a strong regional or national dialect is involved it is common for people to switch them on, tomake it easier to makem sense of what is being said.   

For example when the great Rab C Nesbit was being shown...

(The subtitles in that case would have been in Glaswegian Scots, not translated into standard English, but it was a lot easier to follow the man in black and white print.)

Subject: RE: BS: Is Scots a Language or a Dialect?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 15 Oct 06 - 02:12 PM

When you speak to other Europeans about their different dialects you find that there is not a lot of difference, a German I worked with told me that like Ireland accents can differ over a few miles.
I pointed out the difference in our own area, between the townspeoples accents and the rural accents, this over a short distance of a few miles.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Scots a Language or a Dialect?
From: mack/misophist
Date: 15 Oct 06 - 02:39 PM

When I offered my 'textbook' definition of dialect, I should have added 'in face to face conversation'.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Scots a Language or a Dialect?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 15 Oct 06 - 02:50 PM

I'm an admirer of a wonderful book called The Power of Babble (that's right, "Power"), by Alex McWhorter, who is a great writer on language and social-cultural matters.

McWhorter maintains that there is no such thing as language: "It's all dialects!" Some of the dialects mutually understandable, to one degree and another, and some are not. Look at the Italian native to Naples and Spanish. They are nominally parts of separate languages, but they are pretty much mutually comprehensible--more so, it might be said, than Naples Italian and northern Italian.

The concept of "language", I think, is like "species" in biology, where it can meaningfully be said that "A species is whatever expert biologists decide to call 'a species'." Ditto "language".

It's ALL dialects!

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Is Scots a Language or a Dialect?
From: Peace
Date: 15 Oct 06 - 03:08 PM

English

Through--oo
Though--oh
Bough--ow
Rough--uff
Thought--aw

Go figger.

To make the long 'e' sound we have sea, see, me, receive, believe, ski, and about a half dozen others I can't be arsed to recall. I agree with Dave. No doubt if the Anglo-Frisian speakers had heard 'English' a few hundred years later they would have talked about the decline and fall of the language. No doubt the West Germanic speakers thought the same of the Anglo-Frisians.

I agree with Dave O despite not disagreeing with anyone else. Like, what it be?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Scots a Language or a Dialect?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Oct 06 - 03:21 PM

You left out hiccough--up

Subject: RE: BS: Is Scots a Language or a Dialect?
From: Peace
Date: 15 Oct 06 - 03:29 PM

I apologize for drifing away fron Scottish English. But having spoken to some English people in person, and some Australians, and Canadians and Americans and ew Zealanders and Indians, and Africans and, and, and, the language changes from place to place even at smmall distances of less than fifty miles (80 km for Canucks). I recall reading a study many years ago that was done in England. In a very small area there were someting like a dozen pronunciations and spelling variations of the word 'icicle'.

Thanks, Kevin. I shall add it to the list.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Scots a Language or a Dialect?
From: Rapparee
Date: 15 Oct 06 - 03:36 PM

Every language and every dialect evolves or dies. Even Latin. Here are a few examples from the Vatican (where else?):

alpenstock         montanus báculus
apartheid         segregátio nigritarum
basket-ball         follis canistrīque ludus
bidet                ovāta pelvis
computer         instrumentum computatórium
cow boy         armentárius
edelweis         leontopódium alpinum
flirt            amor levis
frittata         ovorum intrīta
gin            pótio iunípera
golf                thorax láneus manicatus
hot pants         brevíssimae bracae femíneae
jazz                iazensis música
jeep                autocinētum locis iniquis aptum
jet                aërināvis celérrima
jumbo                capacíssima aërināvis
lady            Ánglica múlier conspícua
motel                deversórium autocinéticum
nylon                matéria plástica nailonensis
picnic         cénula subdivālis
punk                punkianae catervae ássecla
rugby            ludus follis ovāti
week-end         éxiens hebdómada

Gotta evolve....

Subject: RE: BS: Is Scots a Language or a Dialect?
From: Mr Red
Date: 16 Oct 06 - 05:10 AM

Or is it a patois?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Scots a Language or a Dialect?
From: The Shambles
Date: 16 Oct 06 - 08:10 AM

Or is it a patois?

No - that's what you spread on toast.


Subject: RE: BS: Jolly good jokes
From: eric the red - PM
Date: 16 Oct 06 - 05:11 AM

Hey Jock, is that a doughnut or a meringue ? yer nay wrang laddie, it's a doughnut.

eric

Subject: RE: BS: Is Scots a Language or a Dialect?
From: GUEST,DIAVROS
Date: 16 Oct 06 - 08:25 AM

THE DIALECTS WILL EXTERRRRMINATE YOU!!!! EXTERRRRRRRMINATE!!!!! EXTERRRRMINATE!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Is Scots a Language or a Dialect?
From: Rapparee
Date: 16 Oct 06 - 09:16 AM

It could be a lingua faca.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Scots a Language or a Dialect?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 16 Oct 06 - 09:32 AM

Then there are pidgins.   (There are also pigeons, but I don't know what they speak. There was also Walter Pidgeon, the actor, but he seemed to speak all right.)

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Is Scots a Language or a Dialect?
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 16 Oct 06 - 10:08 AM

Nothing is ever simple:
The Scots were Gaels who spoke Gaelic, not Scots, and they came from Ireland. It was the Romans who called them Scottie. The Scots language derives from the Saxons who came from Germany and Holland. The Saxons cousins the Angles, also from Germany spoke the same language and gave their name to England. Their language came to be known as Anglo-Saxon and from it derived both English and Scots. Therefore they are sibling languages, neither being a dialect derived from the other. It could be argued that both are German dialects. Clear as mud?? :-}
      Sandy

Subject: RE: BS: Is Scots a Language or a Dialect?
From: Big Mick
Date: 16 Oct 06 - 10:14 AM

Pretty good, Sandy. I would add one thing to clear up the third sentence. The lowland Scots language derives from Saxons. The Highland Scots spoke the Gaedhlige language which derived from Ulster Irish. That language has now pretty well retreated to the outer islands, as I understand it. I would happily stand correction on this. The languages (Ulster Irish and Scots Gaelic) are still very similar in terms of pronounciation and usage but are very different in terms of spelling.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Is Scots a Language or a Dialect?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 16 Oct 06 - 10:31 AM

If Scots is a separate language, it only became so in the last couple of hundred years. Starting from Old English, it lost the gender and concordance structure in the same way that English did. Sentence structure is the same in Scots and English. Differences are almost entirely in pronunciation and vocabulary.

One main difference is that, along with many northern English dialects, the vowel shift that happened from late Middle English to Modern English was less drastic. Another is the retention of guttural fricatives (ch as in 'loch', nicht for night etc.)

The spelling of English became standardised before modern pronunciation was fully developed, which means that the spelling often represents Scots better than English.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Scots a Language or a Dialect?
From: MartinRyan
Date: 16 Oct 06 - 10:32 AM

There was a letter in yesterday's Irish Times from a puzzled Pole about Dubliners' use of the phrase "dig out", which has nothing to do with potatoes.

In the wake of Ireland's soccer defeat (5-2) by Cyprus a few days earlier, a taxi-driver remarked to the Pole that "The lads in the Irish dugout would need a digout before the fans were dug out of them!"

Regards

Subject: RE: BS: Is Scots a Language or a Dialect?
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 16 Oct 06 - 11:36 AM

Yeh Mick! The Gaels (Scots) who came from Ireland were a branch of the Dalriada and they were Gaelic speaking. They mixed with the Picts in Scotland who were another group of Celts. With the Highland clearances many thousands of these people came to Cape Breton in the early 1800's. My parents still spoke "the Gaelic". I understand a bit but am not fluent. I have heard it said that Gaelic in the North of Ireland was close to what is spoken in the Hebrides but that the southern Irish has less in common.
                Slainte,
                   Sandy

Subject: RE: BS: Is Scots a Language or a Dialect?
From: number 6
Date: 16 Oct 06 - 11:58 AM

"Ulster Irish and Scots Gaelic"

Is this not a result of Ulster being populated by the Scots? ... the colonization which took place in the northern Irish province of Ulster during the early 17th century in the reign of James I of England.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Is Scots a Language or a Dialect?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 16 Oct 06 - 12:15 PM

A mixture of lowland Scots mostly from the border regions and as many again of English land grabbers, there would have been no Gaelic speakers.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Scots a Language or a Dialect?
From: number 6
Date: 16 Oct 06 - 12:20 PM

Thanks for the clarification mhacha.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Is Scots a Language or a Dialect?
From: Big Mick
Date: 16 Oct 06 - 12:22 PM

I wouldn't think so, sIx, as these were Scots Presbyterians and not Gaels. They were a part of the Plantation system, and actually sought to displace Gaelic culture. That is greatly simplified generalization, but they surely didn't bring the language of the Gaels. They would have been English speakers brought to displace the native Irish. The migration that Sandy refers to took place much earlier. Certain Gaels, fled to what later became Scotland, settling in the highlands. They had a great deal to do with the creation of the clan structure, brought there language and customs, and (I am told) bagpipes and whiskey. Over the centuries these transplants, influenced by these and other cultures, became what we now know as the Scot.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Scots a Language or a Dialect?
From: Big Mick
Date: 16 Oct 06 - 12:23 PM

cross post, ard. Sorry.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Scots a Language or a Dialect?
From: GUEST,Sandy (lost cookie)
Date: 16 Oct 06 - 12:24 PM

As ard mhacha says this return migration to Ireland was not of Gaelic people. There was however continuing trade and migration back and forth.
The kingdom of Dalriada included both areas.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Scots a Language or a Dialect?
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 16 Oct 06 - 12:32 PM

more here:

http://lyberty.com/encyc/articles/dalriada.html

Subject: RE: BS: Is Scots a Language or a Dialect?
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 16 Oct 06 - 01:29 PM

"A Lanmguage is just a Dialect with an Army and Navy"

Subject: RE: BS: Is Scots a Language or a Dialect?
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 16 Oct 06 - 01:30 PM

Minus "m"

Subject: RE: BS: Is Scots a Language or a Dialect?
From: Big Mick
Date: 16 Oct 06 - 01:32 PM

Perhaps if you read the discussion thus far, you would notice that someone has already given that quote and discussed it, ABCD. I believe it was the third post.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Is Scots a Language or a Dialect?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 16 Oct 06 - 02:54 PM

Thanks, McGrath, for the information.

We would not subtitle in the respective dialect (which I think is a very good idea) but in high German.

In the case of Swiss German, dialect subtitles could be difficult for 90% of the Germans.

Dialect subtitle:       War gohd Gompfi poschde?
High German subtitle:    Wer geht Marmelade einkaufen?
English:                Who's going to buy jam?

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Is Scots a Language or a Dialect?
From: Scoville
Date: 16 Oct 06 - 03:02 PM

Ha! In the U.S. they sometimes subtitle English if it has a heavy regional accent. Cajuns in particular seem to be the victims of this, although I've also seen it done to various Europeans with accented English, even if they're Irish or English or from somewhere else that generally speaks English. Think Boomhauer on "King of the Hill".

Subject: RE: BS: Is Scots a Language or a Dialect?
From: GUEST,ibo
Date: 16 Oct 06 - 04:12 PM

I will answer this question,it is simply a noise

Subject: RE: BS: Is Scots a Language or a Dialect?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Oct 06 - 04:24 PM

In the U.S. they sometimes subtitle English if it has a heavy regional accent.

So don't they provide subtitles as a matter of course to help people who don't hear too well? (Which is what the subtitles I referred to are there for primarily) I'm surprised at that - I'd have thought that if anything the States would be ahead of us there.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Scots a Language or a Dialect?
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 17 Oct 06 - 12:04 AM

During the reign of Mary , Queen of Scots, the people of the South west of Scotland used Gaelic. A brief glance at the old "toon" [farm steading] names is revealing. "Craigdarroch", "Auchengee" Farden Reoch" "Creoch" "Brockloch" "Polquhirter" "Polquwhaup" are all cases which lie within five miles of my birthplace. Most of those names stem from old Gaelic. The Scots toungue has something in common with most "languages". It derives from the influences which came into the lives of the people over the centuries. Many words now accepted as "Scots" are the result of old Anglo saxon influence. Some words, like "tassie" [cup], crauvat" [scarf, or tie], are from contact with the French. "Kirk" , "bairn", etc., are Scandinavian. It's some time since I looked with any concentration at a dictionary, but I can clearly remember the italics following most words--"from the French'---"from the German"----"from Latin"--etc.. All language groups have evolved similarly due to changing circumstance. It is plain in fact that at the present day new words and expressions are popping up continuously due to the global phenomenon of modern communications and
interest in entertainment and constant virtual contact with other language groups.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Scots a Language or a Dialect?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 17 Oct 06 - 09:01 AM

McGrth of Harlow inquired:

So don't they provide subtitles as a matter of course to help people who don't hear too well?

Yes, many stations have, included in their signal, the information for real-time subtitles, for many of the programs. Of course you have to have the appropriate home equipment to make those running "translations" show up on the screen.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Is Scots a Language or a Dialect?
From: cobra
Date: 17 Oct 06 - 10:12 AM

Getting a grant from the EU for preservation/ promulgation of your language or dialect of choice is a good way to ensure its preservation. Provided the money can be spent in the ale hoose gannin' o'er the mair dreek aspects o' the language.

I am reminded of a do which was held in Belfast City Hall a while back. It was in support of Disabled Children, the Lord Mayor's chosen charity at the time. Politically, all official communications in Norn Iron are now required to be issued in three (3) versions viz. English, Gaeilge and Ulster-Scots. The English version extended a welcome to prospective attendees and hoped they would be able to join the Mayor for afternoon tea at the City Hall in support of Children With Mental Disability. The Gaelic version was a fair interpration of the same.

The Ulster-Scots exhortation was as follows (approx.): "The heid yin wud like for ye to cam fir tae and buns in the Big Hoose in aid of the wee dafties".

Language or dialect, you decide.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Scots a Language or a Dialect?
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Oct 06 - 11:09 AM

When Stormont was up and running did the elected brains use this dialect?.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Scots a Language or a Dialect?
From: cobra
Date: 17 Oct 06 - 03:45 PM

"Stormont" and "brains" in thesame sentence is a difficult concept to work with. They all spoke in tongues, their own tongues. Incomprehensible to anyone else.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Scots a Language or a Dialect?
From: Tootler
Date: 17 Oct 06 - 07:51 PM

I loved the "wee dafties". How did they get away with such a non-PC expression? I can guess, but tell me anyway ;)