Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 17 Apr 18 - 08:25 AM

Hi,

From: James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/8/1/E, pp. 11721-11722
Reference Code        AFC 1972/001, MS pp. 04924- 04926. Parrot is named Polly, missing the "prattle" stanza

Outlandish Knight- sung by Mrs Sarah Phelps of Avening, Stroud, Gloucestershire, England. Collected by Carpenter about 1930. Learned as a girl over 50 years ago; from mother, and neighbors; never learned from print.

1. An outlandish knight came from the northwest
He came a-'ooing me;
He told me he'd take me unto the northwest,
An' there he would marry me.

2   "Go fetch me some of your father's gold,
An' some of your mother's fee,
An' two of the best nags out of the stable,
Where there stands thirty an' three."

3    She fetched him some of her father's gold,
An' some of her mother's fee,
An' two of the very best nags out of the stable,
Where there stood thirty an' three.

4    She mounted her on her lily-white steed,
He on the dapple grey;
They rode till they came unto the seaside,
Three hours before it was day.

5    "Mount off, mount off thy lily-white steed,
An' deliver it unto me;
For six pretty maidens have I drowned here,
An' the seventh thou shalt be.

6   "Take off, take off thy silken dress,
An' deliver it unto me;
For I thinks it looks too rich by far
To rot all in the salt sea."

7   "If I must take off my silken dress,
Pray turn your back to me;
For it is not fitting that such a ruffian
A naked woman should see."

8    He turned his back towards her
An' viewed the leaves so green;
She caught him round the middle so small,
An' bundled him into the sea.

9    He growped high and he growped low,
Until he came to the side;
"Take hoult o' my hand, my pretty lady,
An' I will make you my bride.'

10   "Lie there, lie there, you false-hearted man,
Lie there instead of me;
For if six pretty maids thou hast drowned here,
The seventh hath drowned thee.'

11    She mounted on her lily-white steed,
An' led the debble grey;
She rode till she came to her own father's door,
Three hours before it was day.

12    The parrot being up in the window so high,
An' seein' his lady, did say,
"I fear that some ruffian hath led you astray,
That you've tarried so long away."

13 The king being up in the chamber so high,
An' hearin' the parrot did say,
"What ails you, what ails you, my pretty Polly,
That you prattle so long before day?"

14 "It's no laughing matter," the parrot replied,
"That so loudly I called unto thee,
For the cats have gotten into the window so high,
An' I'm afraid they will have me."

15    "Well turned, well turned, my pretty Polly,
Well turned, well turned for me;
Thy cage shall be made of some glittering gold,
An' the door of the best ivory."

* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 17 Apr 18 - 09:05 AM

Hi,

Single stanza of text from: James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/7/1/C, p. 10674. Uses lord Lovel form.

Lady Isabel- sung by Professor G. R. Madison of Farmington, NC, about 1939. Collected or sent to Carpenter.

He jumped on a double-down black,
And she on the dapple grey;
They rode till they got to the broad waters,
Three hours before it was day, day,
Three hours before it was day.

* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 17 Apr 18 - 09:20 AM

Hi Richie,
Is that 'Lord Lovel' form common in the States? Intriguing!

Just a suggestion. As all but 2 of the States versions are obviously derived from 'The Outlandish Knight' where a local title is lacking or the collector has used his/her own editorial title why not use the obvious (The Outlandish knight) in brackets to indicate it is editorial?

In most instances I use Child's titles but this is one case where I prefer to use the most commonly recognised title. (I totally refuse to use the spurious title 'Ed***d' for unlucky 13.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 17 Apr 18 - 09:36 AM

Hi,

James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/3/M, pp. 06999-07000. Both the maid and parrot are named "pretty Pollee." Stanza 14 was missing two lines, filled in with standard text.

Outlandish Knight- sung by William Newman of Stanway Hill, Gloucestershire, England. Collected by Carpenter about 1930.

1. An outlandish knight came from the north land
He came a-'ooing me;
Said he would take me to a distant land,
An' there he would marry me.

2   "He asked her for some of her father's gold,
An' some of her mother's fee,
An' two of the best nags out of the stable,
Where there stands thirty an' three."

3    She fetched him some of her father's gold,
An' some of her mother's fee,
An' two of the very best nags out o' the stable,
Where there stand thirty an' three.

4    She mounted her on her milk-white horse,
An' he on the dapple grey;
They rode till they came to a waterside,
Three hours before it was day.

5    "Light off, light off thy milk-white steed,
An' deliver him unto me;
For six pretty maidens I've drowned here,
An' thou the seventh shalt be.

6   "Pull off, pull off thy silken gown,
An' deliver it unto me;
For it is too rich an' too gay
To be buried all in the salt sea."

7   "If I must pull off my silken gown,
Pray turn your back unto me;
For it is not fittin' a man like you
An undressed woman should see."

8    He turned his back towards her
An' viewed the river so green;
She took him round the middle so small,
An' bundled him into the stream.

9    He growped high and he growped low,
Until he came to the side;
"Take hold of my hand, my fair lady,
An' thou shalt be my bride."

10   "Lie there, lie there, you false-hearted man,
Lie there instead of me;
For six pretty maids you've drowned here,
An' the seventh has drowned thee.'

11    She mounted on her lily-white steed,
An' led the dapple grey;
She rode till she came to her own father's house,
Three hours before it was day.

12    The parrot being up in the window so high,
An' hering the missus did say,
"What ails thee, what ails thee, my pretty lady
That you should tarry so long before day?"

13 Her father being up in the chamber so high,
An' hearing the parrot did say,
"What ails thee, what ails thee, my pretty Pollee,
That you prattle so long before day?"

14 ["It's no laughing matter,"] the parrot did say,
["That so loudly I called unto thee,]
The cat being up in the plum so high,
I thought he would have had me."

15    "Well turned, well turned, my pretty Pollee,
Well turned, well turned," said she;
"Thy cage shall be made of the glittering gold,
An' the door of the best ivory."

* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 17 Apr 18 - 10:42 AM

Yes the parrot/maid cross-over for 'Polly' seems to be quite common. I think the girl was called Polly first but probably neither in the original.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 19 Apr 18 - 03:18 PM

Hi,

The next Carpenter versions are found under Child No. 7, Earl Brand with a master title, "Douglas Tragedy," Roud 23.

This is the first page of the Ross version (James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/5/1/F, p. 08091)- I'll add more soon.

The Douglas Tragedy- sung by William Ross of Balquhindochy, by Turriff, learned about 1880.

1. "Oh, come doon the stairs, Lord Douglas," she cried,
Put on your armour so bright,
Ne'er let it be said that a daughter o' thine,
should be married to a lord or a knight.

2. "Oh, come doon the stairs, ye seven sons so bold,
Put on your armour so bright,
And tak' better care of your youngest sister dear,
For your eldest is away last night."

3. He [Lord William] has mounted her on his milk-white steed,
Himsel' on the dapple grey,
Wi' his bugle horn hangin' doon by his side,
So lightly as they both rode away.

4. They rode on, an' on they rode,
By the light o' the moon so clear,
It was then that he spied her seven brethren bold,
It was then she began for to fear.

5. Lord William looked over his left shoulder,
To see what he could see,
It was then that he spied her seven brethren bold,
Comin' ridin' doon by the sea.

6. "Oh hold my steed, Lady Margaret," he cried,
"Oh hold it with your hand,
And I will fight your seven brethren bold
And your father I will make stand."

7. She held his steed with her milk-white hand,
And she never shed a tear,
Until she saw her seven brethren fall,
It was then she began to fear.

8. "Leave off, leave off," Lord William," she cried,
"Your strokes are wondrous sair,
Plenty of sweethearts I will get,
But a father I will never get nae mair."

9. She's ta'en out her handkerchief,
Doon in yonder lowlands so fine,
And she has wiped his bloody wounds,
They were redder than the wine.

10. They rode on, an' on they rode,
It was still by the light of the the moon,
Until they came to a clear running stream,
It was there that they both lighted doon.

11. They both lighted doon for to tak a drink,
O' the waters that ran so clear.
It was then that she spied guide's heart blood,
It was then she began for to fear.

12. "Hold up, hold up Lord William," she cried,
"I'm afraid you have been slain."
"It's only but my scarlet cloak,
That shines on the waters so plain."

13. He's mounted her on his milk-white steed,
Himsel on the dapple grey,
Wi' his bugle horn hanging down by his side,
So sadly they both rode away.

14. They rode on, an' on they rode,
It was still by the light of the the moon,
Until they came to his own mother's door,
It was there that they both lighted doon.

15. "Rise up, rise up, Lady mother, he cried,
"Rise up and let me in.
Rise up, rise up, for this very night,
My fair lady I did win."

16. "Mak my bed, Lady mother," he cried,
Mak it broad an' deep,
Place Lady Margaret at my back,
And the sounder I shall sleep."

17. But Lord William was dead long before midnight,
Lady Margaret long ere day,
And may ilka twa that go thegither,
May they have better luck than they.

18. Lord William was buried in St. Mary's kirk yard,
Lady Margaret in St. Mary's square,
And oot o' the lady's grave there grew a red rose,
And oot o' the knight's a sweet briar.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 19 Apr 18 - 06:02 PM

Yes, it's a shame Child put this series of ballads under one number. They are clearly separate songs that tell the same story. Had he featured them later in the collection I'm sure he would have at least separated Earl Brand from The Douglas Tragedy.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 20 Apr 18 - 09:41 AM

Are they all 'Douglas tragedy'?

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 22 Apr 18 - 12:54 PM

Hi,

As you can imagine I'm still finishing up Child 4, but the end is near!

Here's an interesting version of Child 4B, Wearies Well (incremental depths of the water), sung by and old African-American woman in Waco Texas, as learned c1875, from The Trail Of Negro Folk-Songs; Dorothy Scarborough 1925:

There was a tall an' handsome man,
Who come a-courtin' me.
He said, "Steal out atter dark to-night
An' come a-ridin' with me, with me,
An' come a-ridin' with me.

"An' you may ride your milk-white steed
An' I my apple bay."
We rid out from my mother's house
Three hours befo' de day, de day,
Three hours befo' de day.

I mounted on my milk-white steed
And he rode his apple bay.
We rid on til we got to the ocean,
An' den my lover say, lover say,
An' den my lover say:

"Sit down, sit down, sweetheart," he say,
"An' listen you to me.
Pull off dat golden robe you wears
An' fold hit on yo' knee, yo' knee,
An' fold hit on yo' knee."

I ax him why my golden robe
Must be folded on his knee.
"It is too precious to be rotted away
By the salt water sea, water sea,
By the salt water sea."

I say, "Oh, sweetheart, carry me back home,
My mother for to see,
For I'm a-feared I'll drowned be
In this salt water sea, water sea,
In this salt water sea."

He tuck my hand and drug me in
I say, "Oh, sweetheart, take me back!
The water's up to my feet, my feet,
The water's up to my feet."

He smile at me an' draw me on,
"Come on, sweetheart, sweetheart,
We soon will be across the stream,
We 've reached the deepest part, deepest part,
We've reached the deepest part."

As I went on I cry an' say,
"The water's up to my knees!
Oh, take me home! I'm a-feared to be drowned
In this salt water sea, water sea,
In this salt water sea."

He pull me on an' say, "Sweetheart,
Lay all your fears aside.
We soon will be across it now
We 've reached the deepest tide, deepest tide,
We've reached the deepest tide."

I sank down in the stream an' cry,
"The water's up to my waist."
He pull at me an' drug me on;
He say, "Make haste, make haste, make haste."
He say, "Make haste, make haste."

I cry to him, "The water's up to my neck."
"Lay all your fears aside.
We soon will be across it now,
We 've reached the deepest tide, deepest tide,
We've reached the deepest tide."

I caught hol' of de tail of my milk-white steed,
He was drowned wid his apple bay.
I pulled out of de water an' landed at my mother's house
An hour befo' de day, de day,
An hour befo' de day.

My mother say, "Pretty Polly, who is dat,
A-movin' softily?"
An' I say to my Polly, "Pretty Polly,
Don't you tell no tales on me, on me,
Don't you tell no tales on me."

An' my mother say, "Is dat you, Polly?
Up so early befo' day?"
"Oh, dat mus' be a kitty at yo' door,"
Is all my Polly say, Polly say,
Is all my Polly say.

* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 22 Apr 18 - 02:44 PM

Hmmmm! Something fishy here! 4B as we've already established is 99% certain a one-off Peter Buchan fabrication, as is 4A. I haven't got Scarborough but I'm going to be looking hard for a copy now. Now if she had learnt it c1875 that's before Child published Part 1 in 1882 so the only other source would be Buchan's Ancient Ballads of the North of Scotland, or perhaps more likely a composite version using all the versions to hand. I'll investigate this further.

As we have seen occasionally with the likes of Gainer and Reed-Smith when collectors are being paid/receiving academic kudos to come up with interesting/different versions, it can also lead to fabrication.

Whatever this Texas version is it can only realistically be derived from a composite.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 22 Apr 18 - 02:52 PM

Richie,
Once again can I please recommend you start a new thread when you move on to 7. Those long threads take a long time to digest and anyone looking to follow a particular ballad can find it more easily if it has its own thread.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 22 Apr 18 - 02:57 PM

Okay a quick and simple analysis of the sources stanza by stanza.
1-5 paraphrase 'Outlandish knight'.
6 is found only in A and continental versions whence Buchan took it.
7-11 are all derived from Buchan's B version. (The irony is that Buchan has been Buchanised!)
12-14 paraphrase 'Outlandish Knight'.

Now if we can find a composite from say 1850 that matches then fair enough, 25 years from print to oral is nothing, but if not then Scarborough herself comes under strong suspicion!

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: GUEST,Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 22 Apr 18 - 03:37 PM

Steve

You can download Scarborough here: On The Trail Of Negro Folk Songs

Mick

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 22 Apr 18 - 03:43 PM

Hi,

The headnotes are finished for Child 4: http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/english-and-other-versions-4-lady-isabel-.aspx

I have around 400 versions and am categorizing them now by listing them at the beginning- it's been a struggle ;)

I'll start working on Earl Brand/Lord Douglas and need to go over all the Carpenter versions so I can answer Steve's question.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 22 Apr 18 - 04:13 PM

Hi Steve,

As far as I know, Scarborough did not alter texts or knowingly provide faulty information. She just didn't know the background of many ballads she collected. Also, her African-American ballad (a few posts back) has not been related to Wearie's Well by anyone previously. Although I have not spent the time to get the details of the source-- Amelia Harris may have learned her version(Child's Bc) in Perth from her nurse in the late 1700s-- Child just lists the Harris MSS as the source. I assume it was written down by her daughter(s) by mid-1800's (when the missing MSS were recreated by the sisters- can't remember details now). I know part of Buchan's version was recreated by Buchan or his "source" singer but I don't think the whole ballad version was-- just my opinion.

I'd rather keep this thread open (and start on Earl Brand) until we get to 100 or so posts so we don't have too many threads. I'm trying to give the Carpenter versions but am working on all the UK versions so for Child 4, it took me a while.

As always I appreciate your knowledge, suggestions and opinions -- and the expert advice,

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 22 Apr 18 - 05:15 PM

I've checked all the usual suspects for any collation of A, B and E and there are none. There are plenty of versions with extra literary interference but none are really collations.

As you might expect I don't put any store in the Harris fragments at all. They must have been taken from Buchan.

Unless there are other American versions with similar collation of 3 different ballads, 2 of them already concocted, then, as with previous examples we've discussed, the Texas collation must come heavily under suspicion.

Mick, as usual, brilliant! Many thanks.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 05:33 PM

Had a good read through Scarborough and although I don't know a great deal about African American songs I can't find anything else that looks suspicious. Why would she do this just to one ballad? Very puzzling! All other fabricators I've come across, and there are many, certainly dabbled at length.

Richie, can you please keep a look out for other references to this version and indeed any other suspicious -looking versions of 4?

The only place where all 3 variants were found together was ESPB in 1882
unless he gave all 3 in his earlier collection? I don't have the earlier volumes from the 1860s but they're probably online somewhere.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 01:48 PM

Hi,

I'm finished for now with Child 4 and have concluded that the two English prints (Outlandish Knight; False-knight Outwitted) are both secondary prints. There are over a dozen traditional versions of False-knight Outwitted which may be used to supply missing stanzas.

I've reviewed and categorized most of the extant versions, a number of which do not fit the standard ballad types either because they are missing identifiers or they aren't conclusively one type. Here is the section of my headnotes regarding identifiers:

Some Identifiers:

The identifiers are for these ballad types; Child B (Wearie's Well); Child C (May Colvin, Scottish, Herd 1776); Child D (Historical Scottish); Child E (Outlandish Knight); Child F (False Knight Outwitted) and Child G (Irish, "willow tree"). Child A is unique and possibly not authentic and Child H (May Collin) is part of Child C (early Scottish). Although listed separately Child H had more accurately given the "He wooed me butt(outside)" stanza which is the Scottish identifier for the American versions. Most of the traditional versions are English (Outlandish, Child E, my A) Scottish (He followed me up, Child C, my D) or have the "willow tree" stanza (Child G, my E). Below are identifiers with my letter designations:

A. "The Outlandish Knight," ("An outlandish knight came from the north lands,") similar to or based on the various broadsides (16-18 stanzas); two prints c. 1840 titled "The Old Beau's Courtship."
1. Maid is "Pretty Polly" or "pretty maid" and "outlandish knight" is also "false knight."
2. An outlandish knight comes from "North lands"
3. father's gold, mother's fees
4. She pulls off silken gown, silken stays and holland smock.
5. He views the "leaves so green" and is thrown into a stream (or "the sea").
6. Don't prittle nor prattle (parrot); It's no laughing matter (parrot)
7. "The king is in his chamber"

B. "The False Knight Outwitted: A New Song" [12 stanzas, Englsih] ("Go fetch me some of your father's gold,") BL listed as London? 1710? [1780 date confirmed]
1. takes her to North Lands (see A)
2. Features, Pretty Polly and false knight
3. father's gold, mother's fee,
4. "He fetchd the sickle, to crop the nettle"
5. 'Swim on, swim on, thou false knight"
6. She rides to her "father's house"; father and parrot.

C. "Western Tragedy," (ref. Motherwell, 1749) ["Have ye not heard of (a bludy/bloody knight)
1. Is allegedly based on fact, a historical ballad.
2. Aslo titled "The historical ballad of May Culzean: founded on fact" or after the various names of the maid-- "May Colyean (MacQueen)" etc.
3. Begins with the question "Have ye not heard of (a bludy/bloody knight?"
4. He is "fause (false) Sir John? Wha liv’d in the west country," she is May Culzean, May Colvin, May Collean, or May Collin.
5. Has burial of False Sir John at the end.

D. "May Colven" David Herd, Scottish, published 1776. ("False Sir John a-wooing came,") about 17 stanzas.
1 begins: False Sir John a wooing came; she is May Colven or similarly named
2 He woo'd her butt, he woo'd her ben,
3. They ride and stop at a "rock by the sea."
4. Where he has "drowned seven young ladies" or "seven king's daughters"
5. She "came home to her father's bower"
6. At the end the "king" in is bed chamber.

F. "The Knight and the Chief's Daughter" Irish, learned about 1790 ("Now steal me some of your father's gold") ["willow tree" texts] late 1700s Ireland.
1. She is "pretty colleen," he is false knight (villain)
2. She "steals" father's gold
3. He turned his face to the "willow tree."

G. "The Water o Wearie's Well" early 1800s (Step in, step in, my lady fair,) an Edinburgh variant with incremental immersion in the water of Wearie's Well located in Edinburgh.
1. She is "lady fair," or "King's daughter"
2. He asks her to "Wide in, wide in, my lady fair," and "No harm shall thee befall"
3. "The first step that she stepped in, She stepped to the knee;" then "middle," then "chin."
4. She offers a kiss then Knight is pulled off his horse.
5. She swims "to dry land."

Some of Irish versions with the "pretty colleen" identifier (see: US versions given by Barry in the early 1900s) have a "take you to Scotland" identifier (resembling the "North land" identifier of Outlandish Knight) where he promises, "there I'll marry thee." The same "Scotland" opening is found in other versions. The Scottish versions do not mention "marriage" as an enticement.

Some American versions have the Scottish identifier "He followed me up" and the English name "Pretty Polly" which shows the modifiers have become mixed over time. In some cases the identifiers have become floating stanzas and no longer define a specific ballad type. Other American versions are missing the opening stanza(s) and have the generic core stanzas but are impossible to categorize. They are considered "Generic Versions: Reductions" (see: list of complete versions at top of this page). Complete ballads are categorized at the top of this page-- fragments are found under US/Canada and British pages-- see "Contents."

* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 02:11 PM

Hi Steve,

Regarding your question. Yes, the American versions have combined identifiers and ballad types, making categorizing some of them impossible.

"Pretty Polly" is identified with the English broadsides but in America the name is a floating name found in Scottish versions. The Scottish "He followed her" :

He followd her butt, he followd her benn,
He followd her through the hall,
Till she had neither tongue nor teeth
Nor lips to say him naw. [May Collin, Child H, c. 1780]

is common in America and should show a Scottish origin but it too is sometimes a floating stanza. Many American versions are missing the opening- what is significant is the Outlandish Knight opening is extremely rare in America which means:

The Outlandish Knight was not the early source for the ballad in America and was not brought over by the early settlers. So the Outlandish Knight is a secondary ballad.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 27 Apr 18 - 11:50 PM

Hi,

I just finished the "rough draft" of the headnotes for Gil Brenton, Child 5. Since they are not too long I'll post them, comments welcome, I'm sure there are some minor errors:

* * * *

[This Scottish ballad, about the virtue of a lord's intended bride, died out of tradition in the 1800s. In 1827 William Motherwell never would have expected its demise for he reported[1], "This ballad is very popular, and is known to reciters under a variety of names. I have heard it called Lord Bangwell, Bengwill, Dingwall, Brengwill, etc., and The Seven Sisters, or the Leaves of Lind." A ballad with a complex theme that's sixty to eighty stanzas was simply too long to print as a broadside and too long be remembered and sung by "the mouths of the peasantry." There is no evidence that ballad was collected in America so Motherwell's buoyant assessment of the ballad's popularity seems to be overblown. Shortly after Motherwell's Minstrelsy was published the ballad's popularity began to wane and only two other records of it were found[2]-- the last in 1881.

Child gives eight versions (A-H) and Bronson prints just three melodies with music. The music for Mrs. Brown's version (Child A, "Gil Brenton" or "Chil' Brenton") was written down by a novice musician, Mrs. Brown's nephew, Bob Scott, and is therefore unreliable. As Mrs. Brown's text was given by Child (see below), the two line stanzas are wanting a refrain, tho none was originally written down. A second music version of "Lord Bengwill" was given by William Motherwell and it appeared in his Minstrelsy (Appendix, p. xvi) with one stanza of text. "Lord Bengwill" was transcribed for Motherwell by Andrew Blaikie from Mary Macqueen also known as Mrs. William Storie of Lochwinnoch. Mary Macqueen was Crawfurd's principle informant and also was paid by Motherwell along with her brother Thomas to collect ballads. A third melody was arranged by William Christie (Traditional Ballad Airs, Volume 2, 1881) from the singing of his paternal grandfather, and was sung with the refrain, "Aye, the Birks a-bowing."

Child begins his headnotes by saying[3], "Eight copies of this ballad are extant. . ." which is not entirely accurate. Although Child lists Motherwell's b version, he does not list it as a separate ballad sung by Mrs. Storie. Child did not know the informant since Motherwell just gave one stanza with music. The source and transcriber (Andrew Blaikie of Paisley) were not given. It was not until 1975 when Emily B. Lyle transcribed Andrew Crawfurd's MS that "Lord Bangwell's Adventure" was accessible. Motherwell knew of the MS but for some reason did not print the full text. Here is the missing text:

Fc. "Lord Bangwell's Adventure" from Andrew Crawfurd's Collection of Ballads and Songs, p. 3-5, sung by Mary Macqueen of Lochwinnoch.

1 Seven ladies liv'd in a bower
He down and ho down
An ay the youngest was the flower
He down and ho down

2 They had ae brither amangst them aw
And Sir John they did him caw

3 The seven had to mak him a sark
It was the seven's hale year's wark

4 But whan the sark it was made an dune
They cast lots wha wad with it gang
But the lot fell on the youngest ane

5 As she was gawn through the leaves o Lyne
She met a lord gallant an fine

6 He kept her thare sae lang sae lang
Frae the morning bright to the sune gade doun

7. An frae that again till the next morning,
An aw he gade her at their parting
Was a pair o green gloves a gay gold ring

8 An three plaits o his yellow hair
That was a token if air thay shoud meet mair

9 But whan nine months was past an gane
Lord Bangwell buit a courting gang

10 As he was walking through yon green hall
He saw se'en ladies playan at the baw

11 He threw his baw amang them aw
An on the youngest the baw did faw

12 He threw his gloves amang them aw
An on the youngest the gloves did faw

13 He threw his napkin amang them aw
An on the youngest it did faw

14 He cryde whare will I get a man,
To come and my young bride on.

15 Tha war nane sae readie as Sir John
To come and help his sister on

16 Than out bespak our foremaist man
I think our bride rides slowlie on

17 Then out bespak our hindmaist man
I think our bride rides weepand on

18 O does the wind blaw on your glove
Or are you bound for sum other love

19 Or ar you weary o your life
Because your made Lord Bangwell's wife

20 The wind does not blow on my glove
Nor I am bound for nae other love

21 But I am weary of my life
Because I am made Lord Bangwell's wife

22 As they at Wedding supper sat
An unco pain come in o her back

23 And as they lay aw in Bride's bed
He put his hand for to hap his bride
An there he fand the young thing leap

24 He tok his fit and he gade her a bang
And out o bed himsel he flang

25 He to the hall amang them aw
An on his mother he gade a caw

26 I thought I got a lily flower
But I hae got sume ither man's hure

27 I thought I got a maid meek an mild
But I got a whore an sho is big wi child

28 O dochter O dochter cum tell me
Wha is the faither o your babee

29 As I was walking the leaves of Lyne
I met a lord gallant and fine

30 He kept me there sae lang sae lang
From the morning bright to the sun gade doun

31 An frae that again till the next morning
An aw he gade me at our parting
Was a pair of green gloves and a gay gold ring

32 An thrie plaits of his yellow hair
That was a token if ere we soud meet mair

33 O dochter O dochter cum tell to me
Where is the green

34 O mother O mother gang to the haw
An there ye'll find them wi my claes aw

35 An whan she fand them she kent her son
For on the gloves was writ her name

36 She to the haw amang them aw
And on her son she gade a caw

37 O son O son cum tell to me
Whaur is the green gloves that I gade thee

38 As I was walking the leaves o Lyne
I met a lady gallant an fine

39 I kept her thare sae lang sae lang
Frae the morning bright till the sun gade doun

40 And frae that again till the next morning
An aw I gade her at our parting
It was thir green gloves a gay gold ring

41 An three plaits of my yellow hair
That was a token if ere we soud meet mair

42 An I wad rather than castles and towers
I had that same lady in my bower

43 I wad rather than my very life
I had that same lady for my wife

44 Ye wad not need rather than castles and towers
For ye hae that same lady in your bower

45 You need not rather than your very life
For ye hae that same lady for your wife

46 Go hap my lady wi quilts o' silk
And feed my young son wi woman's milk

47 These words were written on its breast bane
It was Lord Bangwell's sevent son

48 Thae words wore written on its right hand
It was to be heir of aw Lord Bangwell's land.

Macqueen's ballad is shorter than most and uses the standard "Hey down" refrain. In his 1881 book, "Traditional Ballad Airs, Volume 2," William Christie produced an even shorter text (my Db) that "was somewhat like the one given by Mr Buchan, which is here epitomized with some alterations[4]."

Db. "Aye the Birks a-bowing" or, "Lord Dingwall."

1. O we were sisters, sisters seven,
A-bowing down, a-bowing down;
The fairest women under heaven,
And aye the birks a-bowing.

2. And we kiest kevels us amang,
   A-bowing down, a-bowing down,
Wha wou'd now to the greenwood gang,
   And aye the birks a-bowing.

3. A' for to pu' the finest flowers,
A-bowing down, a-bowing down;
To put around our summer bowers,
And aye the birks a-bowing.

4. I was the youngest o' them a',
A-bowing down, a-bowing down;
And this fortune did me befa',
And aye the birks a-bowing.

5. Unto the greenwood I did gang,
A-bowing down, a-bowing down;
And pu'd the nuts as they down hang,
And aye the birks a-bowing,

6. I hadna stay'd an hour but ane,
A-bowing down, a bowing down;
Till I met wi' a gay young man,
   And aye the birks a-bowing.

7. We pu'd the nuts sae late and lang,
   A-bowing down, a-bowing down;
Till the evening set, and the birds they sang,
   And aye the birks a-bowing.

8. He gae to me at our parting,
   A-bowing down, a-bowing down;
A chain of gold, and gay gold ring,
   And aye the birks a-bowing.

9. And three locks o' his yellow hair,
   A-bowing down, a-bowing down;
And bade me keep them for evermair,
   And aye the birks a-bowing.

10. Then for to show I make nae lee,
   A-bowing down, a-bowing down,
Look in my trunk and ye will see,
   And aye the birks a-bowing.

11. His mother to the trunk did go,
   A-bowing down, a-bowing down,
To see if that were true or no,
   And aye the birks a-bowing.

12. And aye she sought, and aye she flang,
   A-bowing down, a-bowing down,
Till these four things came to her hand,
   And aye the birks a-bowing.

13. Then she ran to her son Lord Dingwall,
A-bowing down, a-bowing down,
And said, "My son, ye'll quickly tell,
And aye the birks a-bowing.

14. Ye'll quickly tell to me this thing,
A-bowing down, a-bowing down,
What did you wi' my wedding ring?
And aye the birks a-bowing."

15. "O mother dear, I'll tell nae lee,
A-bowing down, a-bowing down,
I gave it to a gay ladie,
And aye the birks a-bowing.

16. I would gi'e a' my ha's and towers,
A-bowing down, a-bowing down,
I had this ladie within my bowers,
And aye the birks a-bowing."

17. "Keep well, keep well, your lands and strands,
A-bowing down, a-bowing down;
Ye hae that ladie within your hands,
And aye the birks a-bowing.

18. Now, my son, to your bower ye'll go,
A-bowing down, a-bowing down;
And comfort your ladie, she's full of woe,
   And aye the birks a-bowing."

Neither Macqueen's text or Christie's were given by Child whose A version was reserved for one of the eminent Scottish traditional singers: Anna Gordon Brown or "Mrs. Brown" of Old Machar, Aberdeenshire. Mrs. Brown learned her ballads from "her aunt, her mother and an old nurse of the family[5]." In 1783 Mrs. Brown prepared manuscripts of twenty ballad for William Tytler (5Aa, Jamieson-Brown MSS) who later requested the tunes be added. Mrs Brown's nephew Bob Scott, a "mere novice in musick" wrote out fifteen tunes (5Ab, William Tytler-Brown MSS) which were sent to William Tytler and later copied by Joseph Ritson. The first MSS was given to Jamieson, while the MSS with tunes disappeared, leaving only Ritson's copy which is now at the Harvard Library. In the Jamieson's copy the intended husband is "Gil Brenton" while in the William Tytler MS he is "Chil' Brenton." The ballad text, as properly arranged by Child[6], is wanting of a refrain, which may have been omitted by Brown's source presumable to shorten the duration of the 76 stanza version. Only a few stanza are given:

1    Gil Brenton has sent oer the fame,
He's woo'd a wife an brought her hame.

2    Full sevenscore o ships came her wi,
The lady by the greenwood tree.

3    There was twal an twal wi beer an wine,
An twal an twal wi muskadine:

The ballad story, much simplified and including other versions, is this: Gil Brenton has selected a wife and brought her home. There's only one problem, it is later revealed that she's pregnant. When his mother is sent to question his intended bride, the bride admits a dalliance with a young man who gave her certain tokens (a lock of his hair, a string of beads, a gold ring, and a knife) which she must keep. After his mother examines the tokens she realizes that they are the very same tokens she had given her son. The maid was pregnant by her son, the intended groom! His mother goes and questions her son who admits he gave the tokens to a maid who he now wishes were his wife. His mother then explains that his earlier lover is, in fact, his intended bride. Months later after they are married, a son is born and on his breast bone is written "Gil Brenton is my father's name."

Anna Brown's ballad ends as such:

73    Now or a month was come an gone,
This lady bare a bonny young son.

74    An it was well written on his breast-bane
'Gil brenton is my father's name.'

* * * *

Child B, "Cospatrick," is from Sir Walter Scott's Minstrelsy, ii, 117 (1802). It is a composite, arranged by Scott from the recitation of his relative Miss Christian Rutherford with text borrowed from Herd's "Bothwell," and Mrs. Brown's "Child Brenton." According to Scott: "Cospatrick (Comes Patricius) was the designation of the Earl of Dunbar, in the days of Wallace and Bruce[7]."

The name, Cospatrick, is apparently from Major Henry Hutton of the Royal Artillery who sent three stanzas to Scott (24th December, 1802 Letters, I, No 77) as recollected by his father and the family ("Scotch Ballads, Materials for Border Minstrelsy," No 18).

Eight years after Scott's sixty-one stanza composite a version, "We were sisters, we were seven," was published in Cromek's "Remains of Nithsdale and Galloway Song," p. 207, (1810) arranged from "a peasant woman of Galloway, upwards of ninety-years of age" by Alan Cunningham who significantly recreated many versions in the edition-- passing them off as traditional. Cromek and Cunningham's headnotes follow, which were critical of Scott's composite[8]:

"This curious legend is one among a considerable number which were copied from the recital of a peasant woman of Galloway, upwards of ninety years of age. They were all evidently productions of a very remote date, and, whatever might be their poetical beauties, were so involved in obscurity as to render any attempt at illustration useless. This tale was preserved as a specimen of the rest, being not only the clearest in point of style, but possessing a character of originality which cannot fail to interest the reader. Though not strictly what may be called a fairy tale, it is narrated in a similar way. The transitions are abrupt, yet artfully managed, so as to omit no circumstance of the story which the imagination of the reader may not naturally supply. The singular character of Billie Blin' (the Scotch Brownie, and the lubbar fiend of Milton) gives the whole an air of the marvellous, independently of the mystic chair, on which the principal catastrophe of the story turns.

In the third volume of Mr. Scott's Border Minstrelsy there is a ballad called " Cospatrick," founded on three more imperfect readings of this ancient fragment, interspersed with some patches of modern imitation. The entire piece is not so long as the present copy, and the supplementary part but ill accords with the rude simplicity of the original. It is like the introduction of modern masonry to supply the dilapidations of a Gothic ruin; the style of architecture is uniform, but the freshness and polish of the materials destroy the effect of the ancient structure, and it can no longer be contemplated as a genuine relique of past ages.

There are many incongruities in Mr. Scott's copy, which it is strange that so able an antiquary could have let pass. For example:—

"When bells were rung, and mass was said,
And a' men unto bed were gane."

In the Romish service we never heard of mass being said in the evening, but vespers, as in the original here given. Mr. Scott also omits that interesting personage the "Billie Blin," and awkwardly supplies the loss by making the bed, blanket, and sheets speak, which is an outrage on the consistency even of a fairy tale."

Child commented: "Though overlaid with verses of Cunningham's making (of which forty or fifty may be excided in one mass) and though retouched almost everywhere, both the ground work of the story and some genuine lines remain unimpaired. The omission of most of the passage referred to, and the restoration of the stanza form, will give us, perhaps, a thing of shreds and patches, but still a ballad as near to genuine as some in Percy's Reliques or even Scott's Minstrelsy."

Then in his End-notes Child added: "There is small risk in pronouncing 24. 25, 42, 43, 80, 81 spurious, and Cunningham surpasses his usual mawkishness in 83."

Four years later when "Illustrations of Northern Antiquities" was published, Robert Jamieson and Sir Walter Scott responded to Cromek's and Cunningham's comments in the notes to Jamieson's translation of "Ingefred and Gudrune," an analogue of Gil Brenton[9]:

"In a publication (of no credit) which has just reached us, entitled "Remains of Nithsdale and Galloway Song," by R. H. Cromek, (which is executed in such a manner as, were it of sufficient importance, to bring the authenticity of all popular poetry in question,) there is a very poor and mutilated copy of "Gil Brenton," in a note upon which is the following passage: "There are many incongruities in Mr Scott's copy, which it is strange that so able an antiquary could have let pass. For example, we never hear of mass being said in the evening, but vespers, as in the original here given. Mr Scott also omits that interesting personage, the "Billie Blin," and awkwardly supplies the loss by making the bed, blankets, and sheets, speak, which is an outrage on the consistency even of a fairy tale."

Now, in Mr Scott's copies, and the present writer's, where the hero is called Gil Brenton, the blankets and sheets are just as in the Minstrelsy; there is no word of "Billie Blin," and we doubt if ever any reciter of the ballad mentioned him; and as to vespers, neither the thing itself, nor the name, is known among the peasantry of Scotland; whereas the mass, having been the war-cry of the Reformers, and afterwards of the Covenanters, during the struggles between presbytery and episcopacy, is still familiar to every one."

* * * *

Buchan published a version "Lord Dingwall," in his Ballads of the North of Scotland, I, 204, 1828. He commented[10]:

"This ballad has all the insignia of antiquity stamped upon it; and records one of those romantic fashions said to exist in the Highlands of Scotland some hundred years ago. I am not inclined to think that the hero of the piece was any of the Lords Dingwall, although its name would imply as much; but rather a Highland chieftain, or Laird of Dingwall, a royal borough in Ross-shire; if such be the real name of the ballad; of which I am dubious, for Sir Richard Preston was created Lord Dingwall by King James, in 1607, by patent, to the heirs of his body. His only daughter and heir, Lady Elizabeth, married James, the great Duke of Ormond. His grandson, James, second and last Duke, claimed, in 1710, the Scotch honour of Dingwall; for which he was allowed to vote at the election of the sixteen peers the same year. This title was forfeited by his attainder, in 1715. From this we may see, that none of the Lords of Dingwall resided in the Highlands, but most part in England, which confirms my opinion.

In an imperfect copy of a ballad somewhat similar in incident to this one, the hero of the piece is called “Lord Bothwell;” but which of the two is the true title, I am not determined to say."

Buchan's improved refrains have been wed with other texts including Cospatrick in later editions of Scottish ballads[11]. Christie later shortened shortened and arranged Buchan's text for this melody.

About the next year (1829-30) the noted Scottish historian and writer John Hill Burton (b.1809) from Aberdeen and later Edinburgh wrote out a fragment from recitation (no informant was named) that became part of George Ritchie Kinloch MSS.

Several years later in 1833 Andrew Picken included a fragment of text (my I version) in "Traditionary Stories of Old Familes and Legendary Illustrations of Family Histry, 1833." On page 62 in the section, "The Three Maids of Loudon" the following stanzas appear. This excerpt includes part of the text:

The voices of the maidens rose sweet and soft in their arched chamber, but they had not chanted more than a stanza or two of their simple song, running thus,

“Seven pretty sisters dwelt in a bower,
   With a hey-down, and a ho-down;
And they twined the silk, and they work'd the flower,
Sing a hey-down, and a ho-down.

“And they began for seven years' wark,
      With a hey-down, and a ho-down,
All for to make their dear loves a sark,
    With a hey-down, and a ho-down.

“O three long years were pass'd and gone,
      With a hey-down, and a ho-down,
And they had not finish’d a sleeve but one
    With a hey-down, and a ho-down.

O we’ll to the woods, and we’ll pull a rose,
    With a hey-down, and a ho-down;
And up they sprang all at this propose,
   With a hey-down, and a ho-down;”

when the loud sound of a horn without startled their lady, and hushed the whole into instant silence. As they listened and looked in each other's faces, the note rang through the distant woods, and reveberated away from the castle walls with a thousand prolonged echoes.

* * * *

The Scottish ballad Gil Brenton, Child No. 5, disappeared from tradition by the late 1800s. Because of its length, it has not been revived and remains a "dead" ballad. The important texts not given by Child are: 1) "Lord Bengwill's Adventure" from Mary Macqueen (Mrs. William Storie) of Lochwinnoch; Crawfurd's MS published by Lyle, 1975; and 2) "Aye the Birks a-bowing, or, Lord Dingwall," an arrangement of Buchan's text by W. Christie, Traditional Ballad Airs, Volume 2, 1881.

Mortherwell's b version by Mary Macqueen (Crawfurd's MS) should be given a separate letter designation but I've used Child's letter designations for this ballad. Child's texts appear on the first page after this headnotes. The same texts with additional notes appear attached to this page and are listed in CONTENTS, below. Once again Child's excellent headnotes are filled with foreign analogues (see footnote 9 for a Danish analogue by Robert Jamieson) which may or may not be directly related to these Scottish ballads.

* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 29 Apr 18 - 08:08 PM

Hi,

I'm almost done with Child 6 and want to know if there's anything I should add or change to these simple notes (the versions and opening headnotes):

A. Willy's Lady, Mrs. Brown of Falkirk (Willie has taen him oer the fame,) 1783
   a. "Willy's Lady" Mrs. Brown of Falkirk, Fraser-Tytler Manuscript
   b1. "Sweet Willy," Mrs. Brown of Falkirk, Jamieson-Brown Manuscript, No 15, fol. 33.
   b2. "Willie's Ladye," Mrs. Brown of Falkirk, W. Scott based on Child Ab (Jamieson's MS) version, 1802
   b3. "Sweet Willy," Mrs. Brown of Falkirk, Jamieson, Popular Ballads and Songs (Appendix), 1806.
   c1. "Willy's Lady" recreation by Matthew Gregory Lewis in Tales of Wonder, 1801.
   c2. "Willy's Lady" an 1818 Dublin print issued in "Charms of Melody," a copy of Lewis, C1.
   d. "Sweet Willie of Liddesdale," recreation by Jamieson, 1806
   e1. "Sweet Willy" revival text of Child Aa by Ray Fisher of Scotland arranged in the early 1970s (recorded 1982) to the tune of the Breton "Son ar Chiste" (The Song of Cider, c. 1944).
   e2. "Sweet Willy" revival text of Child Ab by Martin Carthy, 1976, based on Ray Fisher's melody.

B. "Simon's Lady," fragment recited by Bell Robertson of New Pitsligo, Aberdeenshire, by Greig, 1906
   a. "Simon's Lady," recitation by Bell Robertson in "Last Leaves of Traditional Ballads" (Keith, 1925)
   b. "Simon's Lady," recitation by Bell Robertson "Greig Duncan Collection" by Pat Shuldham-Shaw and Emily B Lyle.

[This ballad, about a curse of an evil mother on her pregnant daughter-in-law that prevents her from giving birth, was popular in Denmark. Child gives extensive details of the foreign analogues in his headnotes. The British traditional record is two Scottish ballads, both dating back to the 1700s[]. The two MSS from Mrs. Brown (Child Aa and Ab), which date dating back to 1783, are slightly different. Mrs. Brown ballad was reworked by Matthew Gregory Lewis in "Tales of Wonder" (1801), in 1802 Sir Walter Scott published an "ancient copy, never before published" version titled "Willie's Ladye" which was Child Ab with some minor changes, then in 1806 Robert Jamieson published a copy of his MS (Jamieson-Brown MS of 1783) and a reworked recreation by his own hand. In 1966 Helen Flanders published a version form the 1818 Dublin issued "Charms of Melody," which she failed to identify as a version Matthew Gregory Lewis' "Tales of Wonder."

The significantly shorter traditional fragment from Bell Roberston was collected by Grieg about 1906. It appears in "Last Leaves of Traditional Ballads" (Greig-Keith, 1925) and also the "Greig-Duncan Collection" by Pat Shuldham-Shaw and Emily B Lyle (1981-2002). Keith suggests the source is Bell Robertson's grandmother, Isobel Stephen of Strichen which would date the ballad back to the 1700s. Although the text is a fragment, there is at least one improvement which was probably a mis-hearing by Mrs Brown that occurs in stanza 37 and again in stanza 42. The "master-kid" for "kid" or "goat" appears in Robertson's version as "ted" or "tead" for "toad." Since "the master kid" also "ran beneath that ladie's bed" it would seem to have been discovered and removed whereas a "toad" could have stayed under the bed unnoticed.

In the early 1970s the ballad was revived in the UK through an arrangement by Ray Fisher of Scotland that was popularized by a 1976 recording by Martin Carthy[]. Her arrangement wed the text of Child Aa to the Breton tune, "Son ar Chiste" (The Song of Cider).

* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 30 Apr 18 - 04:04 PM

Yes,
The only really reliable source for this ballad is Mrs Brown and even that ballad is very likely at some point in the mid 18thc to have been translated from the Danish like many another.

Bell Robertson recites too many long ballads that follow Buchan's concoctions to be reliable.
She does provide one very useful piece of information when she states that Jamie Rankin (Buchan's fall guy, whom she knew) hadn't the wit to make up a ballad.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: GUEST,Brian Peters
Date: 30 Apr 18 - 05:45 PM

Yes, Richie, I always thought that a toad was much more likely to escape detection, and would be a better witch's familiar as well.

Steve, since Bell Robertson's fragment has the hero named differently and the more plausible toad detail, where do you think she might have got it from (if not her grandmother). If she was going to fabricate a witchcraft ballad, you'd have thought she'd have come up with more than three verses.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 01 May 18 - 03:38 AM

Hi Brian,
As you know I'm always highly suspicious of the verity of ballads with very few versions. I was talking generally about Bell Robertson's ballads. I'll certainly have a closer look at this one now you mention it. William Walker, latterly Buchan's apologist, seems to have been rather heavily involved in what Greig was doing.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 01 May 18 - 09:38 AM

Hi,

The curses in Robertson's version (three total) are different. The rough draft of my headnotes is here: http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/british-and-other-versions-6-willies-lady.aspx

I'm finally starting on Child 7, and will be posting. Steve mentions William Walker who Carpenter collected a version from titled "Lord William's Lady." There are 106 Carpenter entries for Child 7-- most of them multiple entries for the same version.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: GUEST,Brian Peters
Date: 01 May 18 - 10:10 AM

Thanks for linking the Robertson version, Richie, there's quite a lot more of it than I'd remembered.

When I first stumbled on it, the fact that it was so clearly the same ballad as Mrs Brown's, yet so different in detail, struck me as a corroboration of 'Willie's Lady'. Steve may disagree.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 01 May 18 - 12:54 PM

Simplest thing in the world to take a ballad from a book and change a few details. It's been done many a time. Think of fakers who sent Scott stuff and then the people who took the stuff from Scott and added their own bits. And whereas oral tradition occasionally comes in to play there's a lot of literary/editorial interference going on. Yes most of Bell's version is straight copy from Mrs. Brown.

All of this of course is pure conjecture on both our parts and no doubt both of us have studied all of the versions of every ballad.

I've just sent you all of the Greig-Duncan versions, Richie.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 01 May 18 - 02:30 PM

Hi,

From: James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/8/1/A, p. 11482, title in pencil, inconsistent dialect.

"Lord William and Lady Margaret" (The Douglas Tragedy)- sung by William Walker of South Nittans Head, Bonnykelly, New Pitsligo, learned about 1895 from George Taylor of Murryfold, Turriff.

1. "Stand up, stand up, ye seven sons so bold,
Put on your armour so bright,
Ne'er let it be said that a sister of yours,
Should be married tae a lord e're night [or knight]."

2. He [Lord William] has mounted her on a milk-white steed,
An' himsel' on the dapple grey,
Wie a bugle horn hanging doon by his side,
An' so slowly they baith rode away.

3. They rode on, an' on they rode,
It was all by the light o' the moon,
They rode on tae yon clear running stream,
It was there they lighted doon.

4. It was there they lighted doon tae tak a drink,
o, the water it ran sae clear,
It was there that he saw her seven brothers fall,
An her father fighting severe.

5. "Come doon, come doon, Lady Margaret," he cried,
"An tak ye my steed in yer hand,
And I will fight your seven brothers bold
And your father I'll mak him tae stand."

6. Lady Margaret came doon frae her high horseback,
An' she never shed a tear,
Until he saw her seven brothers fall,
An her father fighting severe.

7. "Hold off, hold off," Lord William," she cried,
"Your strokes are wondrous sair,
Sweethearts I'll get mony a ain,
But a father I'll never get mair."

8."Oh choose, oh choose, Lady Margaret," he cried
Whether to gang or tae bide."
"Oh i'll gang wie you, Lord William," she cried
Since you've left me no other guide."

9. He mounted her on his milk-white steed,
Himsel on a dapple grey,
Wi' his bugle horn hanging doon by his side,
An' so slowly they baith rode away.

10. They rode on, an' on they rode,
It was all by the light of the moon,
Until they came tae his mother ha' door,
It was there that they both lighted doon.

11. "Arise, arise, oh mother," he cried,
"Arise and let me in.
Arise, arise, oh mother," he cried,
For this night my fair lady I've won."

12. "Oh mother dear go mak my bed,
An' mak it broad an' deep,
An' lay Lady Margaret doon by my side,
And the sooner I may sleep."

13. Lord William he dead e're the middle o the nicht,
Lady Margaret she died next day,

14. Lord William was buried in St. Mary's kirk yard,
Lady Margaret in St. Mary's square,
And oot o' of Lady Margaret's grew a red, red rose,
And oot o' the Lord William's a sweet briar.

15. They grew and they grew tae the high steeple top,
Till they could grow no higher,
They formed themselves into a true lover's form,
All true lovers fond to admire.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 01 May 18 - 04:20 PM

Hi,

Title is written in pencil. From: James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/5/1/F, p. 08088. Inconsistent dialect, I've added missing 3rd line in stanza 13.

Lord William and Lady Margaret(The Douglas Tragedy)- sung by John Riddoch of Oyne, Aberdeenshire, c. 1930

1. "Rise up, rise up, Lord Douglas," she cried,
An' put on your armour so bright,
An' take better care of your youngest daughter,
For the eldest's away last night."

2. "Rise up, rise up, ye seven sons so bold,
Put on your armour so bright,
And tak' better care of your youngest sister,
For the eldest's away last night."

3. Lord William looked over his left shoulder,
To see what he could see,
Twas then that he saw her seven brothers bold,
Come riding over the lea.

4. He mounted her on her milk-white steed,
Himsel' on a dapple grey,
Wi' his bugle horn hangin' doon by his side,
So slowly they baith rode away.

4. They rode on, an' father on,
It was all by the light o' the moon,
It they came to a clear winding stream,
It wis then they baith lichted doon fear.

5. "Light doon, light doon, Lady Margaret," he cried,
"An' tak my steed in yer hand,
Till I go an' fight wi' your seven brothers bold
An' your father I'll make for to stand."

6. She took his steed in her milk-white hand,
An she never shed one tear,
Until she saw her seven brothers fall,
An her father fighting severe.

7. "Oh hold ye, oh hold ye," Lord William," she cried,
"Hold up e'er ye be dead,
"Tis naught, tis naught, Lady Margaret," he said
But the shining of my coat so red."

8. She's ta'en out her handkerchief,
Doon in yonder lowlands so fine,
And she has wiped his bloody wounds,
They were redder than the wine.

9. He mounted her on her milk-white steed,
An himsel' on his dapple grey,
Wi' a bugle horn hangin' doon by his side,
An' so slowly they baith rode away.

10. They rode on, an' farther on,
Twas all by the light of the the moon,
Until they came to his mother's hall door,
It was there that they both lighted doon.

11. "Rise up, rise up, my mother dear,
"Rise up and let me in.
This night through stress and blood I fear,
My lady I have won."

12. "Oh mother dear, go make my bed," he cried,
Make it baith lang, soft an' deep,
An lay Lady Margaret along by my side,
That the sounder we may sleep."

13. Lord William died in the middle of the night,
Lady Margaret died on the morrow.
[Lord William died from his wounds],
Lady Margaret died of sorrow.

14. They buried then baith in St. Mary's church yard,
Right in the middle of the square,
Oot o' the lady's grave there grew a bonny rose,
While oot o' the knight's grew a briar.

15 They twa met an' they twa plot,
Growing in beauty together.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 01 May 18 - 06:31 PM

Hi,


From James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/2/2/D, pp. 04654-04655, 1st stanza is missing.

Lord William and Lady Margaret (The Douglas Tragedy)- sung by Mary Thain of 27 Castle street, Banff, c. 1930

1. "Stand up, stand up, ye seven sons so bold,
And stand to your armour so bright,
Ne'er let it be said that a sister of yours,
Shall be married to a lord or a knight."

2. He's mounted her on her milk-white steed,
An' himsel' on a dapple grey,
With the buglet horn hanging doon by his side,
It's so slowly they baith rade away.

3. He's looked over his left shoulder,
To see what he could see,
An there he spied her seven brethren bold,
Come riding over the lea.

4. "Lightet doon, lightet doon, Lady Margaret," he cries,
"An' ye'll take my steed in your hand,
Ere I go fight with your seven brethren bold
An' your father an aged man."

5. "Hold off, hold off, Lord William," she cries,
"Your strokes they're wondrous sore,
"Sweethearts I may hae monny a one,
But a father I'll ne'er hae more."

6. "Wilt thou choose, wilt thou choose, Lady Margaret," he cries,
"Wilt thou choose for to go or to bide."
"It's I will choose to go, Lord William," she says
"Since you've left me no other guide."

7. He's mounted her on his milk-white steed,
An himsel' on his dapple grey,
Wi' a buglet horn hanging doon by his side,
An' so slowly they baith rade away.

8. They've ride on, an' farther on,
All by the light of the moon,
Til they came to a clear running stream,
Twas there where they baith lighted doon.

9. They lighted doon for to take a drink
All by the stream running clear,
Twas there that she sae her lover's heart bleed
Twas there she began to fear.

10. "Hold off, hold off, Lord William," she cried,
"I fear ye hae been slain,
"Oh no, it's the shadow of the red scarlet cloak,
A shinin' in the water so clear."

11. He's mounted her on his milk-white steed,
An himsel' on his dapple grey,
Wi' a buglet horn hanging doon by his side,
An' so slowly they baith rade away.

12. They've ride on, an' farther on,
All by the light of the moon,
Until they came to his mother's bowers;
Says, "Arise an' lat me in."

13. "Rise up, rise up lady mother," he cried,
"Rise up an' lat me in,"
"Rise up, rise up lady mother," he cried,
"For this night my fair lady I hae win."

14. "Make my bed baith long and wide,
Make it baith wide an' deep,
An' lay Lady Margaret close at my back,
That the sounder I may sleep."

15. Lord William died ere the middle o' the night,
Lady Margaret died the next day.
. . . .
. . . .

16 They twa met an' they twa plott,
I'm sure they were twa lovers dear,
An a' ye lovers that wish to gang thegither,
I wish you more luck than they.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 01 May 18 - 08:12 PM

Hi,

From: James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/8/1/C, p. 11595

Lord William and Lady Margaret,(The Douglas Tragedy)- sung by Peter Barnett Oyne, Aberdeenshire, c. 1890

1. "Stand up, stand up, ye seven sons so bold,
And ye'll stand to your armour so bright,
It'll ne'er be said that a sister of yours,
Shall be wed to a lord or a knight."

2. "Come doon, come doon, Lady Margaret," he said,
"An' ye'll hold my steed in yer hand,
Till I go an' fight wi' your seven brothers bold
An' your father I'll make him to stand."

3. Lady Margaret stood in the stable door,
An' ne'er a word she spoke,
Until she saw her seven brothers fall,
An her father fighting so bold.

4. "Hold off, hold off, Lord William," she cried,
"Your strokes they are fu sair,
"Sweethearts I'll get plenty
But a father I'll never get mair."

5. ."Oh choose, oh choose, Lady Margaret," he said
Choose ye to go or to bide."
"Oh I maun go wi' you, love,"
Since ye've left me no other guide."

6. So he mounted her on a milk-white steed,
An himsel' on a dapple grey,
Wi' his bugle horn hangin' doon by his side,
An' so slowly they both rode away.

7. They rode on, an' farther on,
Twas all by the light of the the moon,
Until they came to yon clear water,
Twas there that they both lighted doon.

8. They both lighted doon for to take a drink
Of the water that ran sae clear,
Twas there that she saew his heart's blood run down
An' twas then she began for to fear.

9. "Hold up, hold up, Lord William," she said,
"I'm afraid ye have been slain,"
"Oh no, it's but the shadow of the red scarlet cloak,
That goes trinklin' along the stream."

10. So he mounted her on his milk-white steed,
An himsel' on his dapple grey,
Wi' his silver horn hangin' doon by his side,
An' so slowly's they both rode away.

11. They rode on, an' farther on,
Twas all by the light of the the moon,
Until they came to his mother's gate,
Twas there that they both lighted doon.

12 "Oh rise, oh rise, my mother dear,
"Oh rise up and let me in.
"Oh rise, oh rise, my mother dear,
For this night my true love I've won."

13. "Ye'll make my bed, mother,
Ye'll make it soft an' fine,
An ye'll lay my true love doon by my side,
So fondly's we may sleep."

14. Lord William he died in the middle o' the night,
Lady Margaret died on the morrow.
Lord William died for his own true love,
Lady Margaret for perfect sorrow.

15. The one was buried in St. Peter's kirk yard,
The other in st. Mary's hall,
An' oot o' the one grew a red rose sae fine,
An' oot o' the other grew a sweet briar.

16 They grew and grew till they reached the top,
Til they could grow no higher,
And they twined themselves in a true lover's knot
For all true lovers to admire.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 01 May 18 - 09:03 PM

Hi,

From James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/5/1/F, p. 08085, very spare Scot dialect.

Lord William and Lady Margaret, (Douglas Tragedy) sung by David Edwards, 84 High St., Cuminestown, Scotland in the Formartine area of Aberdeenshire, approximately six miles east of Turriff. Learned in Cornhill 50 to 60 years ago.

1. "Stand up, stand up, my seven sons so bold
And up to your armour so bright,
Let it never be said that a sister of yours,
Was wed to a lord or a knight."

2. "Come doon, come doon, Lady Margaret," he said,
"Come hold my steed for me,
Till I go and fight your seven brothers bold
And your father so boldly to see [stand]."

3. She held it in her milk-white hand,
Without ever shedding a tear,
Until she saw her seven brothers fall,
An her father fighting so dear.

4. "Hold off, hold off, Lord William," she cried,
"Your strokes are wondrous sair,
"Sweethearts I will get many a one,
But a father I'll never get no more."

5. "O choose, o choose, Lady Margaret," he cries
Either to come or to bide."
"Oh I maun gang with you,
Since you've left me no other guide."

6. So he mounted her on his milk-white steed,
An himself on the dapple grey,
With his bugle horn hanging doon by his side,
And so slowly they both rode away.

7. They rode on, and farther on,
It was all by the light of the the moon,
Until they came to yon clear water,
It was there that they both lighted doon.

8. They lighted doon to take a drink
Of the water that passed then so near,
It was there she saw his life's blood
Flow from his body so fair.

9. "I fear, I fear, you've got a wound,
"I fear you're slain," she cries.
"It's only shadow of my red scarlet cloak,
That is shining in your eyes."

10. He mounted her on his milk-white steed,
Himself on a dapple grey,
With his bugle horn hanging doon by his side,
And so slowly they both rode away.

11. They rode on, and farther on,
It was all by the light of the the moon,
Until they came to yon castle tower,
It was there that they both lighted doon.

12 "Awake, awake, my mother," he cried
"And make my bed for me,
"For I have brought my true love here,
This night to lie with me."

13. Lord William he died in the middle of the night,
Lady Margaret died on the morrow.
Lord William died for his true love's sake,
Lady Margaret died of sorrow.

14. And so these two in this grave were laid,
They were both laid side by side,
Out of Lord William's grave there grew a red rose,
And out of Lady Margaret's a sweet briar.

* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 01 May 18 - 09:42 PM

Hi,

From: James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/11/155, Disc Side 149, 01:56, missing some stanzas. Her name changes to Marget, a common shortened variant. The last line has "brattle"? or it could be "brattlin' briar"?

Prince William- sung by Mrs Mary Stewart Robertson, of 6 Auchreddie Road, New Deer, learned from grandmother Mrs. Mary MacPhe Stewart, 50 years ago, her grandmother was about 80 when she died. Collected in 1932.

1. He lichted Lady Margaret on a white-milk steed,
An himsel' on a dapple an' a grey,
His sword and his buckle [bugle] hung by his side,
And so slowly he rode away.

2. She stood and she stood,
An' she far better stood,
Till she sa' her seven brothers fa',
An' her father who stood close by.

3. "O haud your hand, Prince William," she said,
"Your blows are so wondrous sore,
"For sweethearts sweethearts I may get plenty,
But a father I'll never get no more."

4. "Take it in your choice, Lady Margaret," he said
Either to go or to bide."
"I maun go with you, Prince William
For you've left me nae to be my guide."

5. He lichted Lady Margaret on a white-milk steed,
An himsel' on a dapple an' a grey,
An' the sword an' buckle [bugle] it hung by his side,
An' he's come bleedin' away.

6. They rode an they rode, and they far better rode,
Till they came to a bonny spring waal [well],
"Ye'll haud my steed Lady Marget," he said
Till I tak a drink o the spring."

7. "Oh rise, oh rise, Prince William," she says,
"Oh rise, oh rise," said she,
For I think I see your very heart's blood
A-running doon this spring."

8. O they rode an' they rode, and they far better rode,
Till they came tae his father's gate,
"Oh open your gates, baith broad an' wide,
Open yer gates tae me,
For I think I've gained as fair lady
As stands in this country today.

9. Prince William died in the middle o' the night,
Lady Marget by the break o' day,
An' there grows a red rose at Lady Marget's head
An' at Prince William's a brattle an' a briar.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 01 May 18 - 10:56 PM

Hi,

From James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/5/1/E, p. 08083, missing the opening.

Lord William and Lady Margaret- as sung by Mrs William Duncan of Tories, Oyne, by Turriff, Aberdeenshire, Scotland.

1. Stand up stand up, ye seven sons so bold
And ye'll stand to your armour so bright,
It'll ne'er be said that a sister of yours,
Shall be wed to a lord or a knight."

2. Lord William looked over his broad shoulder,
To see what he could see,
And there he saw her seven brothers bold,
Come riding over the lea.

3. "Come down, come down, Lady Margaret," he cries,
"Take my steed in yer hand,
Till I go an' fight with your seven brothers bold
An' yer father I'll make stand."

4. She's taen his steed in her milk-white hand,
An' she never shed one tear,
Until she saw her seven brothers fall,
An her father stood fighting sae near.

5. "Hold off your hand, Lord William," she said,
"For your strokes they are wondrous sore,
"Sweethearts I may get a many a one,
But a father I'll never get more."

6. "Choose, oh choose, Lady Margaret," he said
Either to go or to bide."
"Oh I maun gang along wi' thee,
Since ye've left me no other guide."

7. He mounted her on a milk-white steed,
Himsel' on a dapple grey,
Wi' his bugle horn hanging doon by his side,
An' so slowly they baith rode away.

8. They rode on, an' farther on,
Twas all by the light of the the moon,
Until that they came to yonder clear stream,
An' twas there that they both lighted doon.

9. They both lighted down to tak a drink,
Of the water that run sae clear,
An' down the stream ran his heart's blood,
Oh sair, sair did she fear.

10. "Hold up your head, Lord William," she said,
For I doubt not but ye're slain,
"Oh no, it's the shadow of my scarlet coat,
That shines in the water sae clear.

11. They rode on, an' farther on,
Twas all by the light of the moon,
Until that they came to his father's ha' door,
An' there they baith lighted doon.

12. "Oh mother dear, ye'll make my bed,
Ye'll mak it soft an' fine,
An ye'll lay my lady doon by my side,
That I may sleep full soon."

13. Lord William he died in the middle o' the night,
Lady Margaret she died on the morrow.
Lord William he died for his ain true love,
Lady Margaret she died for sorrow.

15. Lord William was buried in St. Mary's kirkyard,
Lady Margaret in St. Mary's choir,
An' from Lord William's there grew a red rose,
An' from Lady Margaret's a sweet briar.

16 They grew an' grew an' on they grew,
Till they reached one another sae near,
Twas to let them know all that passed by,
That there lies twa lovers sae dear.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 01 May 18 - 11:36 PM

Hi,

Predictably the best version so far is Bell Duncan's which is the model. From James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/5/1/E, p. 08083 and James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/5/1/E, p. 08078.

Lord William and Lady Margaret - as sung by Miss Bell Duncan of Insch, Scotland.

1. "Rise up, rise up, my seven sons so bold
And put on your armour sae bright,
Ye'll tak far better care o' yer youngest sister,
For yer eldest sister's awa' last night.

2. Stand up stand up, my seven sons so bold
And stand tae your armour sae bright,
Let it ne'er be said that a sister o' yours,
Should get wed tae a lord or a knight."

3. He mounted her on a milk-white steed,
An' himsel' on a dapple grey,
Wi' the bugle horn hanging doon by his side,
An' sae lightly they baith rode awa'.

4. Lord William looked over his left shoulder,
To see fat he could spy,
Twas there he saw her seven brothers bold,
An' her father wis drawing nigh.

5. "Light doon, light doon, Lady Margaret," he says,
"Ye'll hold my steed in yer hand,
Till I go an' fight wi' your seven brothers bold
An' yer father, I'll make him to stand."

6. She held his horse in her milk-white hand,
An' she never shed a tear,
Until she saw her seven brothers fall,
An her father was floating sae near.

7. "Hold off your hand, Lord William," she said,
"For your strokes they are wondrous sair,
"Sweethearts I may get a monny a one,
But a father I will never get mair."

8. "O choose, ye choose, Lady Margaret," he says,
Either to gang or to bide."
"O I maun gang along wi' you,
For ye've left me nae other guide."

9. He's mounted her on a milk-white steed,
A' himsel' on a dapple grey,
Wi' his bugle horn hangin' doon by his side,
An' sae slowly's they baith rode away.

10. An' they rode on, an' farther on,
An' twas a' by the licht o' the moon,
Until they cam till yon water wan,
An' twas there that they baith lighted doon.

11. Twas there that they both lighted down for to drink,
The water that ran by sae clear,
Twas there she first saw his life's blood wis spilt,
Twas there she began to fear.

12. "Hold up your head, Lord William," she said,
"I've nae doot bit ye're slain,"
"Oh no, it's but the shadow of my reid scarlet coat,
That gaes trinklin' doon the stream."

13. They rode on, an' farther on,
An' twas a' by the light o' the moon,
Until that they cam tae his mother's ha' door,
An' twas there that they baith lighted doon.

15. "Oh mother dear, ye'll mak my bed,
Ye'll mak it wide and lang,
An ye'll lay my lady upon my richt side,
That we may sleep fu' soon."

16. His mother then she made his bed,
She made it wide and lang,
An she laid his lady upon his richt side,
That they micht sleep fu' soon."

17. An' Lord William he died in the middle o' the nicht,
An' Lady Margaret she died on the morrow.
Lord William was slain for his ain true love,
Lady Margaret she died for sorrow.

18. Lord William was buried in Lady Mary's kirkyard,
Lady Margaret in St. Mary's choir,
An' oot o Lord William's there sprung a reid rose,
An' fae Lady Margaret's a briar.

19 An' they grew an' grew, an' they far better grew,
Till they reached ane an ither sae near,
Till ilka one that did them see,
Says, "Here lies twa lovers dear."

* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 02 May 18 - 12:46 PM

Hi,

So far all the Carpenter versions are of the Lord Douglas variety and are usually titled "Lord William and Lady Margaret." They correspond to Child I and various broadside/chapbook prints titled: "Lord Douglas' Tragedy." I've listed three publications below; the earliest is 1792. Note "Blue gilded horn" for "bulge horn" in stanza 9.

Lord Douglas Tragedy: And The Shepherd's Daughter, Also, The New Way of Taliho. Published 1799.

(Chapbook) The Gosport tragedy. Lord Douglas' tragedy. My grandfather's farm. Edinburgh c. 1800.

Lord Douglas' Tragedy. To which are added, The shepherd's courtship. The blythsome bridal or the lass wi' the gouden hair. The farewell. Newcastle upon Tyne, published 1792.

          Lord Douglas' Tragedy

1    'Rise up, rise up, Lord Douglas,' she said,
'And draw to your arms so bright;
Let it never be said a daughter of yours
Shall go with a lord or a knight.

2    'Rise up, rise up, my seven bold sons,
And draw to your armour so bright;
Let it never be said a sister of yours
Shall go with a lord or a night.'

3    He looked over his left shoulder,
To see what he could see,
And there he spy'd her seven brethren bold,
And her father that lov'd her tenderly.

4    'Light down, light down, Lady Margret,' he said,
'And hold my steed in thy hand.
That I may go fight with your seven brethren bold,
And your father who's just at hand.'

5    O there she stood, and bitter she stood,
And never did shed a tear,
Till once she saw her seven brethren slain,
And her father she lovd so dear.

6    'Hold, hold your hand, William,' she said,
'For thy strokes are wondrous sore;
For sweethearts I may get many a one,
But a father I neer will get more.'

7    She took out a handkerchief of holland so fine
And wip'd her father's bloody wound,
Which ran more clear than the red wine,
And forked on the cold ground.

8    'O chuse you, chuse you, Margret,' he said,
'Whether you will go or bide!'
'I must go with you, Lord William,' she said,
'Since you've left me no other guide.'

9    He lifted her on a milk-white steed,
And himself on a dapple grey,
With a blue gilded horn hanging by his side,
And they slowly both rode away.

10    Away they rode, and better they rode,
Till they came to yonder sand,
Till once they came to yon river side,
And ther they lighted down.

11    They lighted down to take a drink
Of the spring that ran so clear,
And there she spy'd his bonny heart's blood,
A running down the stream.

12    'Hold up, hold up, Lord William,' she says,
'For I fear that you are slain;'
'Tis nought but the shade of my scarlet clothes,
That is sparkling down the stream.'

13    He lifted her on a milk-white steed,
And himself on a dapple grey,
With a blue gilded horn hanging by his side,
And slowly they rode away.

14    Ay they rode, and better they rode,
Till they came to his mother's bower;
Till once they came to his mother's bower,
And down they lighted there.

15    'O mother, mother, make my bed,
And make it saft and fine,
And lay my lady close at my back,
That I may sleep most sound.'

16    Lord William he died eer middle o the night,
Lady Margret long before the morrow;
Lord William he died for pure true love,
And Lady Margret died for sorrow.

17    Lord William was bury'd in Lady Mary's kirk,
The other in Saint Mary's quire;
Out of William's grave sprang a red rose,
And out of Margret's a briar.

18    And ay they grew, and ay they threw,
As they wad fain been near;
And by this you may ken right well
They were twa lovers dear.

* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 02 May 18 - 05:41 PM

Richie, FWIW, all the print copies I've seen are the same 18 sts you have here but in the first line they all have 'says' for 'said'.

I'm presuming that what you have just posted is the 1792 version. In that case the 1792 version I have seen seemingly has 'says' unless I've copied wrongly.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: GUEST,Brian Peters
Date: 02 May 18 - 11:34 PM

I realise we're supposed to have moved on now, but I've not done with #6 yet.

Steve G wrote: "Most of Bell's version is straight copy from Mrs. Brown."

But it isn't - not remotely. The bloke's name is different, every one of the spells is different, the phraseology is different, the Billy Blin now sits at the bed foot, etc, etc, etc. And then there's the fact that the supposed 'rewrite' only bothers to tell a fragment of the tale. To me it looks far more like a vestigial survival of a parallel ballad to Mrs Brown's. Oh, and there's the source's own testimony - or should this be disbelieved as a matter of course?

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 03 May 18 - 09:07 AM

Hi Steve,

The text I sent you was Child I, taken from an unidentified print in Child's possession which has "said" in opening line. I agree with you that "Earl Brand" is a different ballad about a similar affair with a similar ending (both are wounded, and go home and then die). Earl Brand has a refrain while Lord Douglas does not. The only stanza held strictly in common is the:

"O Earl Brand, I see thy heart’s bluid,"
"It’s but the shadow of my scarlet robe."

Similar themes are found in Bold Soldier (Bold Keeper), Braes o' Yarrow, and Erlington,

Brian, I agree with you on Child 6. I've added the changes from Lyle transcript (Bell Roberton's version) on my site now.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 03 May 18 - 09:32 AM

Hi,

I came across this in "Select Views of the Royal Palaces of Scotland,"
by John Jamieson 1830:

In a M.S. in the possession of Lord Traquair, dated 1711— from which the circumstances above mentioned are extracted— this is called 'Lord William and Fair Margaret' but like most of our popular ballads it has borne different names. It is published, in the Minstrelsy of the Border, vol. iii. 243, &c., under the title of “The Douglas Tragedy.' This place is merely mentioned by, Chalmers as “Blackhouse tower, on Douglas burn.”

It seems says that Lord Douglas was publish from a 1711 MS in possession of Lord Traquair. I'm not sure if he's talking about a ballad, or just the details of the event. I haven't seen evidence that his statement has been rebutted or amplified. Anyone?

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Lighter
Date: 03 May 18 - 01:41 PM

I've borrowed through Interlibrary Loan a little (and little-known) booklet by Fred High of High, Arkansas, called "Old, Old Folk Songs." He published it himself around 1947. It contains just the words of 73 songs of all kinds known to High and his family - most of them obscure and highly sentimental: "one song for each of my years here on earth."

"Old, Old Folk Songs" is notable as the only printed document of any length that I've ever seen that has undergone no proofreading whatsoever. In terms of spelling, punctuation, spacing, etc., what follows is 100% typical of High's 53-page booklet.

From p. 10:

                      WILLIE CAME OVER THE OCEAN

Willie came over the main wide Ocean
And Willie came over the Sea
And Willie come to my fathers household come
Come a corting home with me, me, me
He followed me up he folled me down he folled
me far and near, i had not time to tell him
To stay or go no time to tell him to stay or go estate
Go get 1/2 of your fathers and part of yours
Mothers fee and 2 of your fathers best horses and
Married we will B. B. B. & married we will B
She got 1/2 of her fathers estate and part of her
Mothers fee . . & marched rightn to the barn-doore
Tuck choice among 30 & 3 for there was 30 & eight
She mounted on the snow-white beast & Willie the
Dapple gray . . & they rode till they come to the
Salty-water sea at the lingth of a long of a
Summer day-day-day
Go light you down my pretty Polly go light
U down said he for six kind daughters Ive drounded
Here and the seventh you will be-be-be
Go pull-off that silkin dress that is made of
Silk so fine for it is to fine & costly to lye
And rot in the Sea-sea-sea
Go turn your Face all around & turn you back
On me . . . And think what ashame & a scandal it
Would B for A-necked woman ti see-see-see
He turned him self all around & about & turned
His banc on to me . . . I grabed him around the
Slim long wast & tosed him in to the deep blue sea
Reach down reach down your hands for me . .
Fir six kind daughters ive dronded here the
Seventh U wont Be-be-be & the seventh U wont B
Lye there th lye there youl cruel hearted fellow
Lye there in the place of me . . . for six kind
Daughters uve drownded here & the seventh U will B
She mounted on the snow white beast & leading
The dapple-gray until she come to her
Fathers house two long hours before it was day
Where have you ben my pretty Polye where have U
Ben says he . . . Ive ben with the richest man in
The state & drowned him in the sea-sea-.sea

                                       Sister Succie Brisco

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 03 May 18 - 03:09 PM

Hi,

James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/3/G, pp. 06744-06745

The Douglas Tragedy - as sung by William Angus of Cuminston, Aberdeenshire. Learned from Mr. Stephens (Sandy Stephen's brother)

1. "Stand up, stand up, ye seven sons so bold
And ye'll tae yer armour sae bright,
Never have it said yer young sister dear,
Should get wed tae a lord or a knight."

2. Lord William looked over his left shoulder,
Tae see fa [what] he could spye,
An' fa [what] did he see but her seven brothers bold,
Coming riding over the hill.

3. "Stand up, stand up, Lady Margaret," he cried,
"An' haud my steed in yer han',
Till I go an' ficht wi' your seven brothers bold
An' yer father, I'll mak for tee stand."

4. She's ta'en the steed enti her hand,
She held him baith firm and fast,
Until she sa' her seven brothers fall,
An' her father was fightin' so dear.

5. "Hold aff, hold aff, Lord William," she cried,
"For your strokes they are wondrous sair,
"Of sweethearts I shall hae mony more than een,
But a father I'll never get mair."

6. "Choose ye, ye choose, Lady Margaret," he said,
Since you are to go or bide."
"It's I maun follow after you,
Since ye've left me nae other guide."

7. They rode on, an' far farther on,
It was all by the licht o' the moon,
Until they cam tae waters clear,
It was there that they baith lichted doon.

8. They lichted down tae take a drink,
O' the water that ran by sae clear,
It was there she spied her true lover's hert's blood,
It was then she began for tae fear.

9. "Stand up, stand up, Lord William," she said,
"I'm afraid you have been slain,"
"Oh no, oh no Lady Margaret," he said,
"It's but the colour of my reed-scarlet coat,
You see in the water's clear."

10. He's mounted her on a milk-white steed,
Himself on his dapple grey,
With a siller bugle hanging doon by his side,
An' so slowly they baith rode away.

11. They rode on an' far, farther on,
It was all by the light o' the moon,
Until that they cam tae his mother's high door,
It was there they baith lighted doon.

12. "Arise, arise, dear mother," he said
"Arise, an' lat me in,
"Arise, arise, dear mother," he said,
"For this nicht my true love I've won."

13. "Ye'll mak my bed baith long an' broad
An' ye'll mak it baith soft an' deep,
An' lay my true love doon by my side,
That the sooner I might sleep."

14. His mother then she made his bed,
She made it wide and lang,
An she laid his lady upon his richt side,
That they micht sleep fu' soon."

15. Lord William he died in the middle o' the nicht,
An' Lady Margaret she died on the morrow.
Lord William he died for the sake o his true love,
Lady Margaret she died for sorrow.

16. Lord William was buried in St. Mary's kirkyard,
Lady Margaret in St. Mary's square,
An' on Lord William's there sprung a reid rose,
An' Lady Margaret's a bonnie briar.

17. They grew an' they grew, an' the nearer they grew,
Till they reached ane another fu' near,
Till [To] let people ken as they passed by,
That they had been lovers fu' dear."

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 03 May 18 - 03:31 PM

Richie,
29 April 8.08 you have Robinson for Robertson.

Jon,
Interesting version easily standardised. Shall you do it or one of us, just for clarity?

Brian,
I did say 'most of' and, for me at least, in nearly a century since the ballad was published there is plenty of time for oral tradition or literary interference (needs looking at closely) or both to have intervened. The kid/toad change could easily have been someone in the chain trying to make it look more plausible. Who knows?

As to Bell's fragmentary version. I don't really see how it being a fragment tells us anything. I'm aware that Child often was suspicious of 'complete' ballads as being edited/collated, but for me at least just because something is a fragment doesn't make it any more genuine.

Regarding Bell's own statements, we have plenty of examples when source singers have been mistaken or made false statements. There are all sorts of possibilities and mine is just an opinion.

If you want to go through the similarities and difference piece by piece I need to know whether you're using Child or Lyle. The stanza numbering is different.

Generally speaking, having looked at Bell's longer recitations, some of them are very close to Peter Buchan's concoctions. But there are all sorts of ways they could be derived from Buchan.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 03 May 18 - 03:57 PM

Richie,
You have 'Robinson' on the website as well.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 03 May 18 - 04:34 PM

Hi,

Thanks for correction Steve.

Lighter: I have a copy of that Fred High pamphlet (book :) To hear him sing it: http://digitalcollections.uark.edu/cdm/ref/collection/OzarkFolkSong/id/1393/

The title is an Ozark title first collected as "Willie Came over the Ocean" by Miss Hamilton, 1909, from Julia Rickman, one of her pupils in West Plains High School (see: Belden, Ballads and Songs, 1940 version B). That's Child 4, of course.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Lighter
Date: 03 May 18 - 05:56 PM

The "Encyclopedia of Arkansas" gives High's dates as "1878 - 1962."

That means his little collection was published in 1951 or '52.

Steve, be my guest.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 03 May 18 - 10:18 PM

Thanks Lighter,

I have c. 1951 for that date. I don't know what's worst my spelling or my typing-- it's definitely my typing cause my fingers can't keep up. "And here's to you Mrs Robinson-- Jesus loves you more than you will know, wo, wo wo"

Most of the Carpenter versions are long-- I'm still finding small errors in them.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 03 May 18 - 10:38 PM

Hi,

From: James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/3/G, pp. 06748-06749. Very few Scot word but there are some, inconsistent dialect.

The Douglas Tragedy - as sung by Alexander Campbell of Ythan Wells, Aberdeenshire about 1930.

1. "Stand up, stand up, ye seven sons so bold
Stand up to your armour so bright,
Let it never be said that a sister o' yours,
Was married to a lord or knight."

2. Lord William looked over his left shoulder,
To see what he could spy,
And there he spied her seven brothers bold,
And her father drawing nigh.

3. "Come doon, come doon, Lady Margaret," he cried,
"Hold my steed in your milk-white hand,
Till I turn back your seven brothers bold
And make your father to stand."

4. She held his steed by the bridal rein,
Without shedding a tear,
Until she saw her seven brothers fall,
An' her father still fighting severe.

5. "Hold off, hold off, Lord William," she cried,
"Your strokes they are wondrous sair,
"Sweethearts I will get many a one,
But a father I'll never get mair."

6. "Choose, then choose, Lady Margaret," he said,
It's either to go or to bide."
"O I maun gang wi' you, Lord William
Since ye've left me nae other guide."

7. He mounted her on her milk-white steed,
And himself on a dapple grey,
His sword and his bugle hinging doon by his side,
And so slowly they both rode away.

8. They rode on, and still further on,
It was all by the light of the moon,
Until that they came to yon clear running stream,
It was there that they both lighted doon.

9. Twas there that they lichted doon for to drink,
O' the water so cool and so clear,
Twas there that she spied the reid drops o blood,
Fell into the water so clear.

10. "I'm afraid, I'm afraid, Lord William," she said,
"I'm afraid that you've been slain,"
"It's nothing but my scarlet coat,
That shines in the river so plain."

11. He mounted her on her milk-white steed,
Himsel on the dapple grey,
With a sword and a bugle hanging doon by his side,
And so slowly both rode away.

12. They rode on and still further on,
It was all by the light o' the moon,
Until that they came to his mother's ha' door,
It was there they lighted doon.

13. "Get up, get up, lady mother," he said
"Get up and let me in,
"Get up, get up, lady mother," he said
"For this nicht my fair lady I've won."

14. "O mak me my bed lady mother,
O mak it braid and deep,
An' lay my Lady Margaret at my back,
And the sounder we may sleep."

15. Lord William he died in the middle o' the nicht,
Lady Margaret she died on the morrow.
Lord William died for his true love's sake,
Lady Margaret died for sorrow.

16. Lord William was buried in the green church yard,
Lady Margaret in St. Mary's choir,
Out o Lord William there grew a reid rose,
And out o Lady Margaret a briar.

17. They grew and they grew, and still further grew,
Till they reached one another there,
And now they are twined in a true lover's knot,
For all true lovers to admire."
* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 04 May 18 - 04:33 PM

Thanks, Jon

I have taken the liberty of rationalising a few parts to improve the sense and scansion, but I've tried to keep it to a minimum. Like some of the NC versions Richie has posted it follows the 'Lord Lovel' burlesque pattern so each stanza needs the triple on the last word and repeat of last line as in st 1. Most of the NC versions seem to only double the last word but the effect is similar.

I'll type it up in Word first as I don't want to risk losing it and having to redo it.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 04 May 18 - 04:57 PM

Willie came over the main wide ocean
And Willie came over the sea,
And Willie came to my father’s household,
Came a courting with me, me, me,
Came a courting with me.

He followed me up, he followed me down,
He followed me far and near;
I had no time to tell him to go,
No time to tell him to stay, etc.

“Go get half of your father’s estate (gold?)
And part of your mother’s fee,
And two of your father’s best horses,
And married we will be.”

She got half of her father’s estate
And part of her mother’s fee
And marched right up to the barn door,
Took choice of thirty and three.

She mounted on a snow-white beast
And Willie the dapple grey,
And they rode till they came to the salt-water sea
At the length of a long summer day.

“Go light you down, my pretty Polly,
Go light you down,” said he
For six kind daughters I’ve drownded here, (king’s)
And the seventh you will be.

Go pull off that silken dress,” he said,
“That is made of silk so fine,
For it is too fine and costly a thing
To lie and rot in the sea.”

“Go turn your face around,” I said,
“And turn your back on me.
Think what shame and scandal would be
A naked woman to see.”

He turned himself all round and about
And turned his back on me.
I grabbed him around the long, slim waist
And tossed him into the sea.

“Reach down, reach down your hands for me,
Reach down your hands,” cried he.
“For six kind daughters I’ve drownded here,
But the seventh you won’t be.”

“Lie there, lie there, you cruel-hearted fellow,
Lie there in place of me,
For six kind daughters you’ve drownded here
And the seventh I won’t be.”

She mounted on the snow-white beast
And leading the dapple grey,
She came back to her father’s house
Two long hours before it was day.

“Where have you been, my pretty Polly,
Where have you been?” said he.
“I’ve been with the richest man in the state
And drownded him in the sea.”

I quite like this version, no silly parrot and tells the story succinctly.