Folklore: Is Scots a Language or a Dialect?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Scots a Language or a Dialect?
From: Urbane_Guerrilla
Date: 17 Oct 06 - 09:34 PM

"The appropriate equipment" being any television younger than about fifteen years old. Subtitles and SAP (Second Audio Program -- dubbing into another language) are a very regular feature at least of cable TV in the U.S. I'm way out of touch with whatever those twentieth-century slowpokes, the large TV networks, are currently doing, as I've lived ten years in an area that gets very poor VHF and UHF reception -- the antennas are all over in L.A., and there aren't hardly any repeaters to get the signals over the intervening mountains. Even medium-wave AM radio is weak and noisy.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Scots a Language or a Dialect?
From: GUEST,marks
Date: 18 Oct 06 - 09:35 PM

Wolfgang
The idea that Swiss German is a dialect of German rather than a language all its own would have my grandparents (born in Basel Stadt)
spinning in their graves!
Be glad my grandmother did not learn of you referring to Schweitzerdeutsch as a "dialect". You would quickly learn
"Du sonst shon un uhr vin an esel!"
MFG
Mark

Subject: RE: BS: Is Scots a Language or a Dialect?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 19 Oct 06 - 03:35 AM

Would "a Germanic dialect" (which it clearly is) have appeased her? It looks a little like the German bits of Yiddish to me, and no one has ever tried to claim that wasn't German in origin.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Scots a Language or a Dialect?
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 19 Oct 06 - 03:49 AM

Ian Paisley went to both the British and European parliments to get funding to develop what he called the "Ulster Scots Language" and he got it. Yet he was allowed to stand up publicly and ridicule the Irish Language. He refers to it as a leprechaun language.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Scots a Language or a Dialect?
From: GUEST,thurg
Date: 19 Oct 06 - 09:31 AM

Point of clarification. Big Mick said awhile ago: "these were Scots Presbyterians and not Gaels". The two groups are not mutually exclusive. They may not get much press, but there are "Scots Presbyterians" who are Gaels.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Scots a Language or a Dialect?
From: MartinRyan
Date: 19 Oct 06 - 09:38 AM

Thurg

In fairness, taken in context, I think Big Mick's comments were valid.

Regards
p.s. My instinct suggests that Presbyterian Gaels belonged to some of the "free" sects, probably later than we're talking about? I dunno.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Scots a Language or a Dialect?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 19 Oct 06 - 09:49 AM

Mark,

I've lived some hundred yards from Switzerland for about 15 years (with better access to Swiss TV, so I know what you mean. The speakers of that Alemanic dialect prefer to call Swiss-German a language and to use the word 'dialect(s)' for Berner Deutsch, Glarner Deutsch, Zurich Deutsch etc.

But that does not mean much, for those Germans who speak the Alemanic dialect (in the very South West of Germany) and those French who also speak the Alemanic dialect (Alsatians) also would name their dialect a language (sprooch).

Less seriously, as long as the Swiss German speakers themselves name the language Schwyzerdütsch it still is a dialect of German. And it can never become an own language for purely geographical reasons: "A language is a dialect with a navy".

Paul,
no, I don't think she would have been glad with that

Swiss German is actually at the brink to a new language for several reasons in my layperson eyes.
It not only has many completely different words (East-German and West-German also had about 500 different words after a separate history of only 40 odd years).
It has a completely different grammar and the stresses are often completely different.

More reasons for it being a language already:
(1) A Swiss German speaker is unable to speak more or less of his dialect. There is no real continuum between a broad dialect and Hochdeutsch. She either speaks Hochdeutsch (with a dialect sound which most Germans wrongly consider to be Swiss German already) or she speaks real Swiss German (that by foreign speakers of German often is not even recognised to be a variant of German).

A teacher would use Hochdeutsch in her lessons and might switch completely to Schwyzerdütsch for a personal remark (Pirmin, could you pay a bit more of attention, for instance.

When I watched skiing in Swiss TV, the speakers always would use Hochdeutsch until the moment they did an interview with a Swiss skier. So without any warning he would start the next sentence for instance like this (I transcribe it how it sounds to me):
Und nu hämmer bi üs d'Marie-Thräs Nadig. Marie-Thräs, wie isch's hüetige Ranne g'si.

(2) There is a third hilarious variant of Swiss High German which also demonstrates that the dialect might soon be a language. In private TV and radio in Switzerland the language used is often Swiss German throughout. And then comes the moment when the speaker reads a news item. The news item has been written in Hochdeutsch and he reads it in Swiss German. That sounds awfully wrong like a nonexisting dialect, for the grammar and the order of words are completely Hochdeutsch and the words and the pronounciation are Swiss German.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Is Scots a Language or a Dialect?
From: Big Mick
Date: 19 Oct 06 - 10:14 AM

thurg, I am sure you could find some Scots Prebyterian Gaels somewhere, but I find your comment disengenuous.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Is Scots a Language or a Dialect?
From: Snuffy
Date: 19 Oct 06 - 12:07 PM

Not as uncommon as you might think, Mick. This site says:

Gaelic is nothing new to Irish Presbyterians who trace their roots in Ireland back to 1642 when the Scottish Regiments stationed at Carrickfergus brought their Presbyterianism to these shores. They spoke both Gaelic and Lowland Scots which later became Ulster Scots. Until the early 19th century there would have been Presbyterian communities who spoke and worshipped in Gaelic in places including Bushmills, the Glens of Antrim, Ballybay and Dundalk. Until around 1850 it was a condition that students for the Presbyterian ministry undertook classes in Irish.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Scots a Language or a Dialect?
From: Tom Hamilton frae Saltcoats Scotland
Date: 19 Oct 06 - 12:12 PM

in 2005 the Europain government made it an offical minorty langage

so from 2005 it's a minorty Langauge.

Tom

Subject: RE: BS: Is Scots a Language or a Dialect?
From: Snuffy
Date: 19 Oct 06 - 12:24 PM

And plenty more on irish-speaking dissenters here Presbyterian Emigrations from Ulster to South Carolina; the Cahans Exodus from Ballybay to Abbeville in 1764.

Religious affiliation did not inevitably follow linguistic boundaries, and vice versa; the situation appears to have been far more fragmented than is commonly realised. Like Catholics, albeit to a lesser extent, dissenters suffered the displeasure of English law, and offered resistance.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Scots a Language or a Dialect?
From: Big Mick
Date: 19 Oct 06 - 02:01 PM

Thurg, please accept my apologies. It appears that I misread the intent of the post, and I was factually wrong.

Thanks Snuff. I would have thought the Presbyterian ministry learned Irish for purposes of proselytizing.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Is Scots a Language or a Dialect?
From: GUEST,thurg
Date: 19 Oct 06 - 05:20 PM

Aw, Mick, yer a Big man after all ... I assumed that there had been a bit of "misreading"; no harm done.

Most of my father's people were Gaelic-speaking Presbyterians in Cape Breton; some of the distant relatives are still alive and still speaking "the language of the Garden". So I felt I had to give them their due.

Cheers,

thurg

Subject: RE: BS: Is Scots a Language or a Dialect?
From: GUEST,marks
Date: 19 Oct 06 - 07:28 PM

Wolfgang
Thank you for those interesting comments. I often used to marvel how, when in Zurich for instance, there would be no problem reading a newspaper and a great problem talking to somebody on the street!
For some years I worked for a company located in Aachen. My co-workers, after learning of my Swiss background, often would comment that SwissGerman is not a language. No, it is a disease of the throat!
Seriously, in order to reproduce the sounds the human mouth has to make in order to speak SwissGerman, I really believe you need to learn this as your motherlanguage as a child. Otherwise you never get it right. My father (SwissGerman motherlanguage even though he was born in America) would speak to my grandparents perfectly. When I would join the talking, everybody would have a kind laugh and joke at the "Fremdschweitzer" in the family!
Thank you for helping me recall some nice memories.
Mark

Subject: RE: BS: Is Scots a Language or a Dialect?
From: Tom Hamilton frae Saltcoats Scotland
Date: 20 Oct 06 - 05:18 AM

the same with Gaelic however it's against the law to name your children with Gaelic names in Scotland because a man from Scotland wanted to give his children Gaelic names, but was told by the authorties that he couldn't and had to give his children non- Gaelic nmaes.

Oh by the way I live in Scotland

Subject: RE: BS: Is Scots a Language or a Dialect?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 20 Oct 06 - 05:39 AM

There is no legal limitation on naming of children in the UK.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Scots a Language or a Dialect?
From: GUEST,Scabby Douglas
Date: 20 Oct 06 - 06:49 AM

Aye, I'm in Scotland too, Tom. Can you cite when this happened? Sounds like a load of old nonsense to me. (No offense intended)

Given that Gaelic names (and names of Gaelic derivation) are routinely used all over Scotland, I find it unlikely that what you assert actually happened.

Of course I could be wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Scots a Language or a Dialect?
From: GUEST,Scabby Douglas
Date: 20 Oct 06 - 06:56 AM

OK - I was wrong.

Although in the end the nitwit forces of Anglo/Scotophone bureaucracy were embarrassed into a climbdown.


http://www.ogmios.org/214.htm

Scottish 'monolingual mindset' exposed in Gaelic name case
From Eurolang, the news agency for lesser-used languages
3 Jun 2003
The General Register Office for Scotland has been forced into a humiliating climbdown after a couple from Skye won their fight to have their baby daughter's name registered in Gaelic. The Boyle family of Erusbaig, near the Kyle of Lochalsh had been told that Gaelic was classed as a foreign language and their child, Aoife NicBhaoille, would have to have her name changed to English before it could be accepted. Aoife's father, Austin Boyle, had said that he was prepared to risk prosecution and would refuse to name his daughter if he could not use the Gaelic form of Boyle, NicBhaoille.

and also here:
http://www.whfp.com/1623/editor.html

Subject: RE: BS: Is Scots a Language or a Dialect?
From: GUEST,Scabby Douglas
Date: 20 Oct 06 - 07:05 AM

Apologies to Tom, incidentally.

I think the breathtakingly dumb thing about the original stushie (great Scots word, that) is that Aoife is by no means an unusual given name, and it seems like it was the rendering of Boyle as NicBhaoille that they were objecting to.

I suspect that some jobsworth objected to the fact that they wanted to give the daughter a different family name, and then attempted to justify it with the "must be English" argument. Which neatly misses the fact that "Boyle" is a surname of Irish origin.

Breathtaking in its stupidity and arrogance.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Scots a Language or a Dialect?
From: greg stephens
Date: 20 Oct 06 - 07:32 AM

Was not the problem the fact that they weren't using the parents' name, Boyle. They were obliged to register the daughter with their own surname: a piece of bureaucracy you may disagree with, but nothing to do with Gaelic. The father could have changed their own name to NicBhaoille or whatever he liked, and then called his daughter likewise. With the first names, there was no problem. You can use any language you like, or make names up from scratch.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Scots a Language or a Dialect?
From: Tom Hamilton frae Saltcoats Scotland
Date: 20 Oct 06 - 09:27 AM

it was afew yaers ago and was pritnted in the Daily Record

Subject: RE: BS: Is Scots a Language or a Dialect?
From: Tom Hamilton frae Saltcoats Scotland
Date: 20 Oct 06 - 09:28 AM

I can't remember when exactly, but as I said I read it in the Daily record

Subject: RE: BS: Is Scots a Language or a Dialect?
From: Tom Hamilton frae Saltcoats Scotland
Date: 20 Oct 06 - 09:30 AM

we in Scotland have British and Scots Law

Subject: RE: BS: Is Scots a Language or a Dialect?
From: Lighter
Date: 20 Oct 06 - 10:17 AM

While various definitions of "dialect" exist, they're all subjective to some degree. There's no litmus test and no comprehensive, entirely objective answer to the question of what's a dialect and what's a language.

The most rigid definition insists that while "dialects" are more or less mutually intelligible (and "languages" are not), "real" dialects exhibit differing details of syntax (grammar rules), as well as of pronunciation and vocabulary.

The traditional syntax of Scots is essentially identical to that of standard English, though there are some very minor differences that most people don't even notice. So its "precise" overall status (assuming there can be one) is moot.

In practical terms, the distinction between "language" and "dialect" is of more political than scientific interest.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Scots a Language or a Dialect?
From: KateG
Date: 20 Oct 06 - 12:02 PM

Thirty-odd (very odd) years ago when I was at University, my Old Norse professor introduced us to the dialect maps of the Germanic languages on the European continent produced by the Brothers Grimm (of fairy tale fame). What was fascinating was the way different aspects of the language changed at different places. So the border between one pronunciation of a particular vowel, consonant or word and another pronuciation of the same vowel, consonant or wrd did not always correlate with the borders between another pronunciation or word choice shift. So while politicians and educators and other folks with various ethnic or nationalist agendas could try to define the "correct" version of their language, the situtation on the ground was much more fluid. And especially in those days (19th century), when transportation was much more limited. You really got the feeling that if you moved from one place to another slowly enough, spending a few weeks or months at each closely placed stop, you could travel all over Europe -- or at least the Germanic portions thereof -- without conciously learning a new language. And the same principal could have applied within the Romance regions or the Slavic regions as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Scots a Language or a Dialect?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 20 Oct 06 - 12:50 PM

Taking this discussion westward across the Atlantic:

Some years ago, some friends here in Indianapolis, Phil and Jean ("JEEN", not "Zhan") Smith had occasion to move to Quebec for work reasons.

When the family produced a girls baby, they named it for the mother, Jean.

"No," they were told by the Francophone officials, "you can't name a girl 'Jean'. That's a man's name. It must be 'Jeanne', or choose some other name."

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Is Scots a Language or a Dialect?
From: GUEST,memyself
Date: 20 Oct 06 - 02:11 PM

Don't get us Canuckistanians started on "Francophone officials" !!

Subject: RE: BS: Is Scots a Language or a Dialect?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Oct 06 - 02:22 PM

It has to be a language - A Dielect is one of the things on Dr Who that wants to exterminate everyone isn't it?

:D (tG)

Subject: RE: BS: Is Scots a Language or a Dialect?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 22 Oct 06 - 07:32 AM

in 2005 the Europain government made it an offical minorty langage

so from 2005 it's a minorty Langauge.

Tom,

are the above italicised terms examples of the Scots lingo?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Scots a Language or a Dialect?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 23 Oct 06 - 05:37 AM

No one seems to have mentioned that one of the distinguishing features of a language is the existence of a substantial corpus of written material- literature, but also histories, newspapers, general works- in that language.

Now there is quite a lot of literature in Scots, as there is to a lesser extent in say Lancashire dialect (Tim Bobbin's poems for example), but it is often self- conscious in both cases. The newpapers in both Edinburgh and Preston are published in the national standard English (with occasional use of dialect words in both cases). There are no general works as far as I am aware in either dialect- no one would publish a serious work of history in Scots.

Historical documents are more complicated- Scots seems to have been slower to adopt the developing standard than England, and retained their version of Middle english usage until after the Act of Union.

So perhaps Scots was on the way to developing into a separate language in the 16th-18th Century, but the Union retarded this, and it now hovers uncertainly in Limbo (rather deserted since the Pope cleared out all the Catholic babies).

Subject: RE: BS: Is Scots a Language or a Dialect?
From: Lighter
Date: 23 Oct 06 - 09:07 AM

Good points, Paul. While Scots today is still used for some imaginative literature, it isn't used routinely for law, medicine, or scholarly or scientific research. Unlike Standard English.

It's hard for me to imagine a form of speech as a true national language without that kind of cultural distribution.

Not that Scots wouldn't be perfectly adequate. But even with that sort of wide use, its written form would still look mostly like English - unless some government policy demanded the use of Scots synonyms and spellings for vast numbers of English words that the Scots already use.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Scots a Language or a Dialect?
From: Rowan
Date: 23 Oct 06 - 06:44 PM

Not wishing to divert the thread, I feel obliged to remind Paul Burke that the lack of a corpus of literature would imply the 250 separate language groups used by nonBalanda Australians and the 750 separate languages in Papua New Guinea (all recognised as languages by the relevant linguistics experts) would not qualify. Should any of the speakers of these meet paul I'm sure they'd be happy to try and convince him of the errors of his ways. Smilingly.

Another earlier poster mentioned pidgin. I've forgotten the formal distinction between pidgin languages and creole languages but, in the Top End (where Aboriginal people will routinely speak at least four languages other than English) a creole has been used for cross-cultural communication for some time. When written, the emphasis has been on simplicity; this means that this language is called Kriol. And a white fella is called a Balanda, pronounced with the emphasis on the first syllable and only the last "a" is long.

Great discussion folks! Much of my ancestry apparently came from the areas you're talking about, And I'm shortly being visited by my ex from 30-odd years ago who migrated to Switzerland and has had to cope with learninng the local lingo; I'll be able to understand her only if she speaks her mother tongue, however.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: Is Scots a Language or a Dialect?
From: Lighter
Date: 23 Oct 06 - 07:23 PM

Rowan, in the case of the Australian languages you mention, their individual status as "languages" or "dialects" is presumably based mostly on "mutual unintelligibility." If there's never been an established written tradition among native speakers, it would be pointless to demand one if the "speech communities" are separated rather than united by their linguistic systems.

My guess is, too, that there's a certain inevitable amount of fudging in the analysis into languages and dialects, with borderline or uncertain cases more or less arbitrarily consigned to one category or the other.

Danish amd Norwegian are mutually intelligible, as are Scottish Gaelic and Irish, but they're customarily regarded as separate languages. Is Galician a dialect of Spanish ? Like Scots, it has a tradition of literary but not, I think, scientific publications. Some rural Sicilian dialects are said to be unintelligible to northern Italians (and vice versa). Are they separate languages ?

My point is that in many cases, like English and Gaelic, there's no doubt they're separate. In many others, like English and "broad" Scots, there's no entirely objective way of deciding.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Scots a Language or a Dialect?
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 23 Oct 06 - 07:31 PM

If it's no' a language, why are there Scots Dictionaries?
It'd be fair braw tae ken hoo mony o'youse ha'e aye been in oor bonnie countrie afore noo, ye pontificatin' an a'. Ah cannae mind sic a muckle midden o' sh*te as whit sim o' youse ha'e pit aboon ma wee message.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Scots a Language or a Dialect?
From: Rowan
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 12:59 AM

Lighter,
I'm sure most of what you say is correct and your comment about fudging describes well the impetus behind numerous PhDs. I was just stirring the possum about the (apparent) requirement for there to be written literature before a language could be recognised as separate; it put all the oral-only ("prehistoric" according to some definitions) languages out of consideration as languages.

In Australia we have had a long tradition of white fellas (mostly from Europe, including the British Isles. but also from North America) arriving here and telling us 'what's what'. Until relatively recently, all Australian and PNG languages were thought of as just dialects; in uninformed 'popular' discussion they are still dismissed as such by many.

But I don't wish to divert an interesting discussion.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: Is Scots a Language or a Dialect?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 03:16 AM

As someone correctly pointed out earlier on, it's exactly like arguing against species, and the discussion always bogs down in the excluded middle. In the end, there is no distinction between a language and a dialect, there is just a continuum of dialects, some of which have achieved more than local utility, and are called languages.

But thare is certainly a difference when looked at over a wider scale- no (human) one could fail to notice the difference between English (and Norn Iron, and Scots, and Geordie, and Jamaican, and North Calina) and say Japanese.

As for pre- literate speech groups, yes, the criteria have to be different. I suppose the main test would be whether you could get sensible (and truthful) answers about the boundaries of usage. So many of the ancient national and tribal names seem to go to the roots "the people", "our mates" or "the ones who talk properly", and the words for outside groups as "not proper people", "wild men", "babblers" etc. Group cohesion is improved by deliberately excluding outsiders.

And of course many groups have more than one speech usage. Pidgin is (as I understand it) a trading language, used in places with many speech communities, none of which is dominant. Each speaker woukld be expected to use the exchange medium in public, and their own group's speech in domestic or community situations.

Can anyone comment about the current status of, say, Dutch? There, they have the full works, literature, legal usage, newspapers, hsitories etc.- but also whole important functions in e.g. higher education are conducted in English, so a scientifically educated Dutch person has to be fluent in English. I believe that this happens in most smaller European countries. Does it make Dutch "less of a language"?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Scots a Language or a Dialect?
From: GUEST,Scotchman
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 04:18 AM

What language is it best to scrounge drinks in?

""Eets yoor roond jimmee!"

Subject: RE: BS: Is Scots a Language or a Dialect?
From: Tom Hamilton frae Saltcoats Scotland
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 04:27 AM

it is still a language minorty or not (excuse the spelling).

I'm not very good at spelling.

Tom

Subject: RE: BS: Is Scots a Language or a Dialect?
From: GUEST,Darowyn
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 08:12 AM

My understanding is that a pidgin is a language using the simplified grammar of one language with the vocabulary of another. South Seas pidgin uses English words within a Polynesian type of structure.
You get Gaelic/ English phrases in a similar way sometimes. "My head's at me" as a way of saying "I have a headache"
(I'm happy to be corrected on Celtic languages- I'm no expert)
The point I want to make is that English itself is a pidgin trading language. Everyday English uses minimal grammar compared with formal German or Latinate languages. All the case and gender agreement has gone, word order hardly matters, and we use vocabularies from anywhere.
"The knight came in through the door" is all Anglo Saxon.
"The cavalier entered via the portal" is pure Latin
English developed in the Midlands, on the borders where Anglo Saxon Speakers met Brithonic languages, Danish, Norman French, and Latin speaking lawyers and clerics.
The dialect of English that developed would depend on the ingredients in the local cocktail.
It's interesting that so many differences should have survived, and that most of us are to some extent bi-lingual. I write this in Oxford (the standard) English.
In speech you would hear a more Northern grammar and idiom despite the fact that I have never had a Yorkshire accent.
I speak North Midlands English. Scots speak Scottish English.
Cheers
Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Is Scots a Language or a Dialect?
From: Lighter
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 09:28 AM

Mudcatters with more than a passing interest in languages may enjoy looking at a very concise and extremely readable introductory textbook by George Yule called "The Study of Language," available at amazon.com:

http://www.amazon.com/Study-Language-George-Yule/dp/0521543207/sr=8-1/qid=1161696116/ref=sr_1_1/102-1659493-5167360?ie=UTF8&s=books

Subject: RE: BS: Is Scots a Language or a Dialect?
From: Tom Hamilton frae Saltcoats Scotland
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 12:10 PM

i consider myself as bilingual, because I speak two languages one Scots an the other Engllish.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Scots a Language or a Dialect?
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 04:27 PM

Och weel, youse cannae mind whit ah'm sayin' as ye've a' chosen tae ignore it! (And I have an English accent in my normal speaking voice!)
Jist try an read "Trainspottin'". a sair fecht!

Subject: RE: BS: Is Scots a Language or a Dialect?
From: GUEST,HughM
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 05:07 PM

I think there is still a Transatlantic misunderstanding from earlier on: In the U.K. the hard of hearing can use Teletext to get subtitles. However, if a particular speaker has an unusual accent there are sometimes subtitles provided as part of the normal T.V. picture.

I wouldn't say Dutch was any less of a language because some affairs are conducted in English. Until quite recently British chemical engineers were expected to learn German (and it comes in handy for electronics, too).

I have been wondering for some time whether there was a significant migration of Gaelic speakers to Tyneside during the Clearances. Some Geordie words seem to be derived from Gaelic, such as "kist" (ciste: chest,coffin or trunk) and "skelp" (sgealp; to hit, and I notice that in the song An t-Eilean Muileach the singer laments being exiled to Newcastle. ( I realise "kist " and "skelp" are also used in Scots.) Perhaps some historian out there can enlighten me.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Scots a Language or a Dialect?
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 05:25 PM

Rubbish!

If ever there was a thread that DOES NOT belong in the folkie section, then this is it.

Take that as a compliment from a Mudcat contributor who can actualy play - bunch of folk instruments- and sing.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Scots a Language or a Dialect?
From: Snuffy
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 07:04 PM

I don't know about skelp, but Kist (or Kiste) is the standard Germanic word for a chest or box - you'll find it in German ,Dutch, Danish, Norwegian, etc etc.

In southern english the 'k' sound often becomes 'ch' while remaining a 'k' in northern dialects (including Scots). So kirk becomes church and kist becomes chest.

I reckon your Gaels nicked the word from Saxons or Vikings, rather than the other way round

Subject: RE: BS: Is Scots a Language or a Dialect?
From: Taconicus
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 03:12 PM

Ever wonder about the meaning of words in Scots English folk songs? Here's a link to the Online Scots Dictionary.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Scots a Language or a Dialect?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 04:08 PM

The father could have changed their own name to NicBhaoille

I know it's a couple of years since greg wrote that, but I've only just read it.

He couldn't have done that, because, whether in its Irish or its Scottish variant, the language doesn't work like that. "Nic" means "daughter of" and "Mac" means "son of". So the father would have needed to have the name MacBhaoille in order for the daughter to be NicBhaoille.

It gets more complicated, because properly speaking th wife retains her pre-married name, but might also be referred to as "Bean MacBhaoille, however never as NicBhaoille.

You can see why the poor official, conditioned to the idea that everyone in a family should have the same surname, might have got confused...

Subject: RE: BS: Is Scots a Language or a Dialect?
From: maple_leaf_boy
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 04:56 PM

The Gaels are also on the mainland of Nova Scotia, mostly in the Eastern part of the province. I don't know the significance of "Lowland Scots" in Nova Scotia, but I think it should be significant. But Scottish Gaelic is very important in Nova Scotia. They're teaching it in public schools (elementary, junior and senior high). They also have a Gaelic History course taught at some high schools. And at least four post-secondary institutions offer Scottish Gaelic. One of which (St F.X.)also teaches Irish Gaelic. They have other Gaelic related programs as well.

I'm not 100% sure of this, but I think they have an Extend Core /
Immersion program where students who have sufficient knowledge of
the language can take courses in Gaelic. I know they do for French.

It's mostly in the Halifax-Metro area (because it's the capital),
Pictou and Antigonish Counties, and Cape Breton island (because those
are the Gaelic regions). Antigonish and Cape Breton have most of their
major road signs both in English and Gaelic.

They have a government run "Office Of Gaelic Affairs" with three locations in Antigonish, Mabou and Halifax.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Scots a Language or a Dialect?
From: GUEST,semiotic
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 05:30 PM

If my memory serves, Meic Stephens has quite a section on Scots in "Linguistic Minorities in Western Europe" but you might have quite a search for a copy. His argument was on the lines of English being of Saxon derivation and Scots from the Anglian or Frisian language; or was it the other way round?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Scots a Language or a Dialect?
From: mayomick
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 05:45 PM

A Scots friend of mine, now sadly deceased , used to argue that English should be considered a dialect of Lowland Scots and not the other way around . The Scandinavians were intergrated into Scotland and the language they used was spoken there long before the Scandinavian navy made forceful contact with England ,he used to say .