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Lyr Add: The Next to Die in Texas
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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas... From: GUEST,Governor George W. Bush Date: 23 Jun 00 - 11:03 AM Hey, if you're at all tempted to vote against me because of the death penalty issue, just remember that Vice-President Gore is also a strong proponent of the death penalty. As is President Clinton, I might add. You didn't hear Mr. Gore or Mr. Clinton speaking up on behalf of Graham. W. |
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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas... From: katlaughing Date: 23 Jun 00 - 11:08 AM KGH, glad you checked out that site. Thanks. I've done several op/ed pieces on their work and really do believe, "we, the people" can use the Internet to make a difference in politics. Jed, some of us do NOT get any of our news from television soundbites...as a columnist, I research as many different ways as possible before forming an opinion, including what I consider the more unbiased reporting of NPR, BBC, and other world news organisations. Kevin, I am just finishing up a book called "Price of Honor" by journalist Jan Goodwin, who spent four years living in Muslim countries, researching and interviewing women and men from all walks of life about the oppression of the fundamentalist Islam movements in all of the Middle East countries. Although it was published a few years ago, I know from other research I've done, that it is still fairly accurate. I have not read of any punishment there that would be as humane as being strapped to a gurney and having a needle inserted, in Saudi Arabia or elsewhere. The atrocities carried out for so-called justice, by the extremists who've taken over, are almost unspeakable. kat |
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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas... From: Ringer Date: 23 Jun 00 - 12:44 PM I hesitate before making any contribution to this debate, because the tenor of forgoing posts leads me to suspect that my views will not be popular, and I think that my views are also easily misunderstood. I believe that the death penalty is sometimes appropriate. Firstly, is any punishment meted out by the powers that be just unless "beyond all doubt"? Is it OK for someone to be gaoled for 20 years if there is doubt that he is guilty? And was not this recently executed man found guilty by a legally constituted court, with a jury of his peers who knew the likely outcome of their "Guilty" verdict? Secondly, I don't believe that executing someone who has been found guilty of murder by a legally constituted court is a case of two wrongs making a right. The initial murder was a wrong, but the execution of a murderer is (trembling, I say it) a good thing. Being human is being responsible for our wrong actions just as much as for our achievements, and being responsible involves being punished when we're found out. The punishment should fit the crime, however; I can think of no crime other than murder deserving of the death penalty. Thirdly, I do not think that justice is served by keeping a man on Death Row for nineteen years. That, not his execution, is a cruel and unusual treatment. |
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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas... From: Jed at Work Date: 23 Jun 00 - 12:48 PM kat - I am certain that you, and many others research issues deeper then Tom Brockaw's surface level facts. I don't mean to lump everybody into the 'sound bite' category. My point about most of us not being in a position to 'know better' is that we have developed a careful, goal oriented process in our country that we call a system of justice. That system is our society's best attempt to secure the truth in such matters as the crimes for which Mr Graham was accused, and to prescribe punishment (or in some cases remedial action). The formal processes of our judicial system, the attorneys, judges and jurys, all of whom I can only assume acted in good faith - have determined that the facts of the case warranted Mr Graham's conviction. The case has been tried, retried and revisited many, many times, and always with the same conclusion. I can think of nothing that I've heard that would make me think those people, using those formal processes aren't in a better position then me to decide Mr Graham's fate. Additionally, the state of Texas has determined that the death penalty may be applied in cases such as Mr Graham's and in fact, the courts did apply that punishment in this case. Again, even though I may or may not have come to the same conclusion, this is the law of the land, and still a majority position among Texans (and indeed Americans). In short, 1) the best processes we have developed over many years, has been applied by concienscious people, and their conclusion was that Mr Graham was guilty of the crimes for which he was tried. I am in no position to say otherwise. 2) the state whose laws govern(ed) Mr Graham and me, has stated that its majority of citizens value the use of the death penalty - and applied that penalty in Mr Graham's case. You and I may be tasked with making life and death decsions in our life time (abortion, pulling the plug on a loved one, self defense, etc) and God willing, we are quite capable of making those decisions - but this life and death decision is one that the state makes. Our opinions in the matter come down to the way we vote. |
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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas... From: Jed at Work Date: 23 Jun 00 - 12:53 PM agreed Bald Eagle - succinctly put! |
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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas... From: Brendy Date: 23 Jun 00 - 12:56 PM Well, TG England got rid of it, otherwise half of us would be dead now B |
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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas... From: Amergin Date: 23 Jun 00 - 01:04 PM Brendy, if your point about the similarity between the two cases was death, then we all have something in common. Personally, I think the rape charge should have been enough to swing him. I think all rapists and child molesters should die, instead of just getting a couple of years in prison with visits to the shrink. They do it once chances are they'll do it again. But then again, I'm a barbarian. Amergin |
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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas... From: katlaughing Date: 23 Jun 00 - 01:09 PM Jed, very well put, but don't you think there is ever room for mistakes on the part of the state etc? There have been many cases, lately, whcih have proven that people who've been on death row are innocent and have been released. I am not defending any crimes Mr. Graham may have committed, just wanting to point out that there seemed to be some good reasons for him to get another chance and possibly receive life imprisonment rather than death. Being only 17 when he was charged with this crime, makes it awfully close to chances of him being charged as a child, not an adult, for starters. I DO agree that Life needs to mean Life. I also believe our prisons need to become self-sufficient, with inmates growing and processing their own food, making their own clothes, i.e. paying their way, to the best of their ability. If one innocent person is saved through lack of a death penalty, then I believe having none is justified. Thank you, kat
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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas... From: Brendy Date: 23 Jun 00 - 01:12 PM "Many are the unmarked graves that dot this free country of ours (USA) of those that fought for things that we take for granted today, things like the forty hour work week, overtime, medical care, and other benefits." That was why Sacco and Vanzetti died, and why I quoted the song. I don't believe that we have the right to convert justice into a needle and shoot it into somebody's arm. That's all!! B. |
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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas... From: Marion Date: 23 Jun 00 - 01:14 PM I'd like to quote a little bit from Tolkien. A little background for those who haven't read it yet: in the first book, Bilbo (a good guy) had the opportunity and motive to kill Gollum (a bad guy), but refrained. Later in the story, Gollum is back and presenting a serious threat to Frodo and Gandalf (other good guys). Their conversation: Frodo: What a pity Bilbo did not stab that vile creature when he had a chance! Gandalf: Pity? It was pity that stayed his hand. Pity, and mercy: not to strike without need. Frodo: I do not feel any pity for Gollum. He deserves death. Gandalf: Deserves death? I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And many that die deserve life. Can you give that to them? Then be not so eager to deal out death in the name of justice. In a sense it's similar to what Jesus said, "Let he who is without sin throw the first stone." Maybe the question is not who deserves death, but who deserves the right to inflict it. If I'm not the One who can give life, who am I to give death? Marion |
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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas... From: Amergin Date: 23 Jun 00 - 01:15 PM Oh ok, sorry I must have misunderstood you somewhere down the line. Amergin |
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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas... From: Brendy Date: 23 Jun 00 - 01:16 PM Don't worry, man, many people do. *BG* B. |
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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas... From: catspaw49 Date: 23 Jun 00 - 01:17 PM Brendy, that's about as succinct a way of putting it that I can imagine. Well stroked. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas... From: Mbo Date: 23 Jun 00 - 01:37 PM Marion, thanks...I love Tolkien like a fiend! "For even the very wise cannot see all ends...." --Mbo |
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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas... From: Áine Date: 23 Jun 00 - 01:51 PM As one who usually doesn't stick a toe into the political discussions on this forum, I have to say that I'm surprised at the number of comments on this thread; but, also pleased that everyone has remained reasonable and calm about such an emotional subject. As with any difficult and painful subject facing a society, no one side is totally right and no one side is totally wrong. Compassion and compromise don't have to be enemies. Keep talking my friends. Well done. -- Áine |
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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas... From: Jed at Work Date: 23 Jun 00 - 02:13 PM kat - yes, I am concerned that errors can be made in the case of detah penalty application; likewise even in jail sentences. I hope that the processes we put in place (our justice system), after years of careful fine tuning, and application - and the best intentions of those working the those processes will prevent miscarriages of justice. I am not foolish enough to believe that errors never happen, but pray those occurrances are extremely rare, and that we, as a society remain vigilant to keep them in check. Áine - nice poem, heart felt lyrics. Even if I disagree with some of its content, I too feel sympathy for the down trodden, and anger at those who would wash their hands to avoid difficult decisions. |
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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas... From: katlaughing Date: 23 Jun 00 - 02:22 PM Marion, thanks for the Tolkein quote, just beautiful. My son had a kitten he named after Gandolf. Jed, thanks, I think we are at least near the same page in some respects, maybe different chapters or paragraphs.:-) someone said and was requoted as saying, "granted today, things like the forty hour work week, overtime, medical care, and other benefits." I'd like to say that many, many Americans do not take those things for granted because they do not have them at all. Roger works many mroe than 40 hours per week, receives no overtime, only gets one week vacation after however many years (going on 4.5), and while he has health benefits, I am denied any, from whatever insurance company, for pre-existing condition, as is my neice who is diabetic and we all make too much to qualify for any government assistance. The struggle for worker's rights continues but is almost non-existent in right-to-work states like Wyoming. Workers can still be let go with no notice, no explanation, most are paid minimum wage...we need someone like Big Mick! Thanks, kat
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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas... From: SINSULL Date: 23 Jun 00 - 04:02 PM The penguins in Antarctica deserve better.
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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas... From: Mbo Date: 23 Jun 00 - 04:29 PM Heh heh...for ultimate redemption, check this out..heh heh heh... --Mbo |
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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas... From: DougR Date: 23 Jun 00 - 04:35 PM Yes, Kendall, I hear you. It would be unthinkable, of course, to suggest that government red tape and a multitude of federal regulations imposed on those same corporations by our government might be contribibuting to the high cost of gasoline. Right? The Federal Government can do no wrong, of course. As to capital punishment, I come down on the side of the majority in this country, and share Bald Eagle and Jed's views. I would not back away for a minute from watching them put the needle in the man's arm who murdered my mother-in-law. They never found him of course. DougR |
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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas... From: InOBU Date: 23 Jun 00 - 05:54 PM Where to begin, other than to remind so many Christians who are for the death penalty that the state nailed him to a cross. What more can be said, we humans can not have perfect justice until we are omnipotent and that, I don't see happening, so let's agree not to do that which cannot be undone, for fear that we do not treat the least of us as we are expected to treat Him. It has been said, look for Him among the least of you and I look for him, on the streets of our cities and on death row. For those of you who need your pound of flesh, here is a suggestion to the rest of us who do not BOYCOTT THE BASTARDS! Withold the purchace of services, do not vist and revile those states and nations that kill. Let them wallow in their hatred alone. Boycotts helped to end aparthide here and in Africa starting with the great Philladelpia boycot at the turn of the centry. Sacco and Vensetti were not the only innocents murdered. Remember young Willie Francis? A teenager who servived Florida's electric chair, who said afterwards, God saved me because I am innocent. The Supreme Court said, it is not unconstitutional to exicute him again, and they did. The last thing he heard was some big grinning camp guard waving a brick in his face telling him that if he did not die, he would bash his skul with the brick. He was proven innocent after his succesful exicution. To the poster who called for the death penilty for rape, how can you forget the Scottsboro boys how spent most of their lives in jail for a rape that never happened. As to the poster who said that was crule and unusual as death is more humain, well, you would have to ask the survivors of our death rows, and there are many of them, aquitted and proven innocent after decades of living on borrowed time. Ask them if they would have rather had a quick trip to the electic chair. Enough said... BOYCOTT!!! Love and kisses... Larry |
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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas... From: Jim the Bart Date: 23 Jun 00 - 07:13 PM I wish to amend my previous post. The word "barbaric" was poorly chosen. An execution like last night's is not a barbaric act. It is an exercise in the administration of death that is peculiar to people who carry the veneer of civilization. It is cold-blooded, calculated, considered, and administered with deliberate skill. It is perverse in it's civility. A barbarian, killing in response to outrage, in a world where death is imminent, seems less twisted than "justice" administered 19 years after the fact, to a man who was barely more than a child when the crime was committed. Nothing good has come from this act. Just one more dead man. |
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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas... From: catspaw49 Date: 23 Jun 00 - 07:32 PM We are not so far out of the trees. Cultures and civilizations have come and gone, each has progressed a bit along the way. But we are not so far out of the trees. Expecting and extracting a pound of flesh is a time worn standard and not one which will easily disappear. The crimes may change for each of us, but we are all still susceptible to those feelings that call for us to strike back, to retaliate, to take something for our anger and our grief. We are not so far out of the trees. We still find it difficult to admit we are wrong on many issues because the methods that worked in the past are time honored and play to our instincts. We have grown and prospered, we have continued to evolve. Yet, rights are still only granted if we fight for them daily. Otherwise the rights still go only to the strongest. We are not so far out of the trees. I want to live to see a time that children are granted the same basic rights to which they are granted as adults. Rights to life, to freedom, to pursuing the joys of life and carrying the responsibility for giving others the same, should be attainable. Freedom from bigotry and hatred will continue to be a goal for our children, possibly theirs. Freedom is still a vision, for it is now only illusory at best. But we can shake the illusion of freedom and go on to enjoy instead its truth and its reality. That time will come if we continue to challenge our beliefs instead of accepting them as law. But the fight will be ours to make and it must continue. We are not so far out of the trees. Spaw
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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas... From: GUEST,BBsBlues@btinternet.com Date: 23 Jun 00 - 07:53 PM I'm not a devout Christian or anything, but I have a gut feeling that life is sacrosanct. Mr Bush, if you're a Christian and a believer in the Bible, then how can you go against one of the 10 commandments...Thou Shalt Not Kill? Mr Bush, you have taken lives, against the teachings of your Bible. |
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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas... From: Mooh Date: 23 Jun 00 - 09:07 PM My $0.02 (Cdn funds): I came to this thread a little late, and much of my thought on the matter has already been expressed. But since everyone seems to be weighing in with their feelings, here goes nothing. State sanctioned execution violates my very personal feelings about how to treat one another. Those feelings are based largely on "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you", and the early (in life) realization that we so very often misjudge that the risk of being wrong, even within the capital punishment ethic, is so great that innocent lives are lost. Further, I believe that if serious and radical attempts to train, rehabilitate, reform, educate, cure, council, and incarcerate were undertaken, a greater good would be served by the eventual release of validated and enlightened individuals. Warehousing people in prisons serves no purpose and only embitters the prisoner. However I also believe that "life" should mean the remaining lifetime of the offender assuming an appeal hasn't succeeded, and that most sentances are too short. Incarceration should include, as someone else pointed out, production of essentials and consumables required in prisons, by prisoners, not as slaves but as if they were commune workers. Expensive? Yes. But since when has it been cheap to buy our way out of our mistakes as a society? My fear is that capital punishment doesn't really make a problem go away, and it reduces its practitioners to killers also, except that they're shielded by the law. (Btw, if it's legal, it doesn't mean it's right or just, but that's another thread.) Last, I think it's important that the realized causes of crime be addressed by society in the hopes of reducing it. There's our famous gun control threads of course. Grinding poverty, failing education, illicit drugs, greed, moral decay, organized crime, and on and on and on...include the seven deadlies here...Generations will pass before success can be measured, but the quick fix of capital punishment doesn't get us there any sooner. Peace, Mooh. |
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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas... From: Brendy Date: 23 Jun 00 - 09:10 PM Nice one 'Spaw & Mooh B. |
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Subject: Lyr Add: I'VE GOT A LITTLE LIST (Gilbert&Sullivan) From: GUEST,W. S. Gilbert Date: 23 Jun 00 - 09:51 PM Why stop with murderers & rapists?? Song-Ko-Ko with Chorus of Men: As some day it may happen that a victim must be found, He's got 'em on the list-he's got 'em on the list; He's got her on the list-he's got her on the list; And that Nisi Prius nuisance, who just now is rather rife, |
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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas... From: DougR Date: 23 Jun 00 - 10:42 PM Anybody here have anything to say (good or bad) about the people who have suffered as a result of the actions of those folks the majority of you are willing to let live? I assume, since you feel the way you do, you are also willing to pay the taxes In the U.S. we have a trial system which may not be perfect, but I think it's better than the average system. Are mistakes made? Yes. Should every effort be made to insure that the person convicted receives a fair trial with good counsel? Yes. The punishment, however, should fit the crime. I have no idea where those of you who equate the crucifiction of Christ with a cold blooded murder's execution are coming from. DougR
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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas... From: catspaw49 Date: 23 Jun 00 - 10:53 PM Well Doug, I didn't use that analogy, but.......
Jesus was in violation of the law. We may not agree with their system of justice, the ideas of the time, or the punishment, but perhaps 2000 years from now, someone will question our acts, in this time, with this system, in the same way. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas... From: DougR Date: 23 Jun 00 - 11:54 PM Spaw: Equating the crucifixtion of Christ with modern day execution of people found guilty of capital crimes is still questionable in my opinion. Christ never took another person's life. The crimes he was charged with have nothing to do with modern day capital punishment. Would Christ have been sentenced to death under present day laws? No, I don't think so! But, respectfully, I submit that you are comparing apples with oranges. If there are passages in the Bible that suggest a prohibition of capital punishment, I am not aware of them. If you or others disagree, I'd like to read your arguments. On the other hand, I hasten to add that I do not accept the writings in the Bible in a literal sense. If I did, I would be blind. DougR |
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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas... From: katlaughing Date: 24 Jun 00 - 12:27 AM Spawmyluv, that is some of the finest writing I've ever read. Thanks darlin'. Mooh, very, very good points, thanks to you, too. DougeR, I am sorry I didn't get a chance to post this earlier. It must have been and probably still is very painful to live with your mother-in-law having been murdered. Thank you for sharing that with us. I am sorry for the tragedy. I also have to say, for all that I wish to abolish the death penalty to protect anyone who may possibly be innocent, if faced with what you have experienced and if they had found the person and knew beyond all doubt that person was the murderer, I think I would have a very hard time not wanting them put to death. I like to think that my beliefs which go mostly along the lines of Buddha, would help me through something so painful, but, as Spaw said, we are not that far from the tree, and the high emotions and feeling of impotence I know I would feel, would probably take over and I would want stark revenge. kat |
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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas... From: zonahobo Date: 24 Jun 00 - 12:29 AM Doug.. this was earlier posting .. guess us Arizonans have similar concerns:I'm with the beyond all doubt ultimate punishment for the ultimate crime group. I think as a society it's justified as self defense. I will not defend the right of a murderer to murder again. If someone was breaking down your front door intent on rape and murder of your whole household and you have "deadly force" at your disposal, do you defend your family? The system is flawed in many ways but I think many more criminals avoid punishment than truly innocent people get punished by the system. Most of the innocents (us) are much more likely to be victimized by criminals. Where do we want to spend what limited time we have? Should we be striving to protect and help the many more innocent, victimized by crime, members of our society or try to tear down what little protection we have.
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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas... From: BK Date: 24 Jun 00 - 12:38 AM As I've said before; I work w/these guys every day. For our lifetimes, in our democracy - badly flawed as it is - we will NEVER put the vast majority of these guys in an "8X8" indefinitely, nor have them work as in a commune. It AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN. They understand & pervert the system better than most lawyers & a very significant percentage will not work under any circumstance, & you can't make 'em work! They refuse, period. They are parasites, big time, & buddy, you'd better believe they've got RIGHTS!!! Whoever said the murderers, child molesters & rapists very frequently serve less time than, for example, the non-violent professional bank robbers, who mostly don't even carry guns, was absolutely right on! And when you CAN keep them locked up for life it can be VERY cruel. In some cases it REALLY drives them frighteningly, & pitiably, crazy. It would be safer for society, &, I often think, even kinder to some of the criminals, to execute them. These guys OFTEN kill other inmates & sometimes guards as well. The main problem I have w/capital punishment is the massive dishonesty, prejudice & plain, bungling, idiotic incompetance that frequently hamstrings the effective, scientifically valid investigation & prosecution of these crimes. This is often how the innocent get on death row. (Even when guilty, they often die at 39, having killed at 17, due the lengthy appeals process...) As an aside; often these chaps may be innocent of the specific murder they are accused of, but are serious carreer criminals, none-the-less. Some have bluntly told me so! One casually told me he'd killed "about 2 dozen" folks they couldn't convict him for & that he was convicted on a "phoney" charge. He & many others do not necessarily kill in a fit of rage; that assertion just ain't always so.. Many kill because they feel like it. It's a way of life for them. Some get their kicks inflicting terror & pain. There are endless variants. These are the cancer cells of society. I do think the death sentance should be reserved for the massively guilty & the evidence & case proceedings examined for compenency by truly expert independant specialists before going foreward. Will this ever happen? I doubt it. Then, of course there's the OJ case - in my educated opinion a man could hardly be more guilty & clearly got away w/murder. At least our society has now allowed wealthy, famous & well connected black man to join the ranks of well heeled white men who did likewise. Real social progress, huh? Cheers, BK, who looks in the eye every day, not only the regular guys who made regretable mistakes they are "paying for," but also consumate, cold, calculating evil, in every variant & permutation that you could imagine, & many you couldn't imagine. |
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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas... From: DougR Date: 24 Jun 00 - 12:45 AM Well, zonahobo, welcome to the minority (on the Mudcat that is). Don't know why it is so difficult for some folks to align themselves with the victims rather than the killers, but then I assume that they assume no one, ever, is guilty even if judged to be so by their peers. I suppose civilized folks (and that don't include us) should be content with a little wrist slapping and chiding those convicted of capital crimes with "you really shouldn't be doing that." kat, my love, my attitude really isn't shaped by the terrible thing that happened to my mother-in-law. She was just one of thousands (millions?) of victims whose killer has never been found. I shouldn't have personalized the argument. I do think, however, if those so opposed to capital punishment experienced the loss of a loved one from a murder, it might give a bit more credibility to their argument. Perhaps there are those out there who have and if so, we just simply aren't on the same wave length. However, those who are so anti-capital punishment should never complain about paying taxes. Those taxes pay for the care and feeding of those people who live thier lives out in prison rather than being executed. DougR |
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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas... From: catspaw49 Date: 24 Jun 00 - 12:56 AM Doug my friend, I can understand your feelings although to experience themis certainly something else. But to continue our dialogue, I cannot nor would not try to justify the crucifixion of Jesus, nor could I view his "crime" as really being a crime at all. But in those times they were real and the punishment given by a "justice" system that I cannot justify either, was appropriate also to that time. But as I said earlier above, we have to some degree progressed. And as we continue this process, we are starting to see a worldwide change in ideas and attitudes regarding capital punishment. In these times it is still viewed as suitable, but the times they are a changin'. Good, fine, intelligent people still support the death penalty as good, fine, intelligent, folks believed in crucifixion in the times of Jesus, and as good, fine, intelligent, people believed, not so long ago, that ownership of other human beings was an okay thing too. Times change. Cultures change. Religions change. Civilization evolves. Sometime down the road, perhaps others will look upon us as we view those from previous times today. Zonahobo......If you point a gun at me and I have a gun, I am going to try to kill you before you kill me. Doesn't make it right though. I will rationalize your death and I will try to remain mentally well, but it will continue to bother me. If the situation was as compelling as the one you describe, I will feel better, but the angst will still be there. A percentage of vets were troubled like that after WWII, but far more after VietNam. Point being, self-preservation is a basic need, but the reason will determine how well we adjust. Times are times.......death is death........We still are not far from the trees. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas... From: DougR Date: 24 Jun 00 - 01:18 AM Spaw, my friend. I give you the last word. DougR |
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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas... From: Mooh Date: 24 Jun 00 - 08:17 AM DougR, Besides "Thou shalt not kill." and "Do unto others..." ...which I do not know how to read in a nonliteral way. Good discussion btw. Thanks. Mooh. |
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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas... From: InOBU Date: 24 Jun 00 - 09:00 AM My dear DougR As to equating the state killing Christ and killings here in the US, the Rosenburgs were guilty of the same crime, subverting the state and the Rosenburgh where likely both innocent and did not kill anyone. As to identifing with killers or the victems, let me pass on something which might help you to understand in terms of your own loss how I feel. Two events in my life brought home my stand on capitol punishment. The first was the stabbing of my father, some eleven or nineteen times, I forget the exact number now, some thirty some years later. I was sixteen and away for the weekend. So as not to worry me, my father, who came within moments of bleeding to death, insisted I not be called. I was met at the door and taken to my dad, when I returned. He could not move, as he was imobilized by bandages. He was stabbed in the back and the neck. I was in shock and angrey, my dad, who was a writer and ex-coal miner, a powerful and unique political thinker, who could only whisper at that point said to me, "don't you be more hurt than I was. Don't let this change the way you look at the world. Don't let it change your politics." Later I found out the man who murdered my mother's whole family, indeed her people, Romania's Roma "Gypsy" population, was alive and well and living as a bishop in New York. As you could emagine, my first impluse was to exact vengence. I then realized to do that would be to say that those of us he killed were no better than he was, only that he had the power to act on his murderous impulses. As a tribute to the innocents he killed, I often said in law school, and stick to that belief, that I would even defend Valerian Triffa, the butcher who killed my family, so Triffa may know that in his shoes, those he murdered whould prove better people. well thats it all the best and greaving for your loss, Larry |
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Subject: Lyr Add: DEAD MAN WALKING BLUES From: The Shambles Date: 24 Jun 00 - 09:23 AM Dead Man Walking Blues
My lips are dry, I can't talk
You may say, all my life I've been no good
My performance may make the news
The good book may say it but it don't mean it's the truth
My deed was in the heat of that hour
Dead man walking, the star of the show Roger Gall 1998 |
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Subject: Lyr Add: THE IRON LADY (Phil Ochs) From: Greg F. Date: 24 Jun 00 - 09:35 AM Here's a thirty-five year old perspective: The Iron Lady ( Phil Ochs)
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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas... From: The Shambles Date: 24 Jun 00 - 10:34 AM However you deal with the perpetrator of a crime, it must be recognised that it is damage limitation. All the options are not good. Nothing that is subsequently done to that person, even if you have correctly identified them, will compensate or repair the harm caused to the victims of that crime. Once this is finally accepted and also that the threat of capital punishment is not a deterrent, more emphasis can be placed on preventing the crimes from being committed? |
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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas... From: catspaw49 Date: 24 Jun 00 - 10:45 AM Absolute and dead truth Shambles. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas... From: Ebbie Date: 24 Jun 00 - 11:17 AM "The system is flawed in many ways but I think many more criminals avoid punishment than truly innocent people get punished by the system." Zonahobo, if I find myself railroaded and on the track to prison or execution- and I am innocent of any I'm with those who simply don't see the right of anyone to commit the same act they object to. Especially in cold blood. As someone else has said, if someone breaks into my home, threatening the safety of me and mine, tough; they may end up dead; and at least I know I got the right person. But as Catspaw said, I will spend the rest of my life trying to come to terms with my act. Ebbie |
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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas... From: Brendy Date: 24 Jun 00 - 11:41 AM And there are, of course, people who have had more than 5 family members killed for no other reason than their religion, and who still do not support capital punishment. To forgive is.... B. |
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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas... From: DougR Date: 24 Jun 00 - 11:42 AM Mooh: I agree that it has been a good discussion. No minds were changed, however, on either side. "Thou shalt not kill" and "Do unto others", however, are rules that one would hope all individuals would practice. Unfortunately, not all people do. I am not certain myself that the writer of those Biblical verses was referring to the "State" when he wrote them either. I assume you do agree that the "State" has a legitimate roll in protecting the good guys from the bad ones. Es so? Larry, I'm sorry if I gave the impression that I was still greiving over a murder that occurred over thirty years ago. The greiving is over. I do regret that someone prevented my wife's mother from enjoying the pleasure of seeing her grandchildren grow up. That would have happened, of course, had she died an early natural death, but that wasn't the case. A man (we know that much) conciously took her life. Not with a gun (so we can't blame guns in this case), nor a knife (can't blame them either), but with his hands. He strangled her to death. In my opinion, society has a right to be protected from such people, and the only way to insure that is the case is execute them. Get them off the street. I do not believe society has the obligation to feed, clothe and shelter them for the rest of their lives. Obviously this is a minority opinion in the forum. So be it. If polls show that the pendulum of public opinion is swinging away from favoring capital punishment then so be it. I then will be counted among the minority rather than the majority. One last comment regarding Larry's posting: I never at anytime felt that I, personally, would extract "an eye or an eye, tooth for a tooth" if given the opportunity. And, since I assume you are a lawyer, I can understand that you would represent, if called upon, the butcher who slaughterd so many of your people. That is the role of the lawyer in our society and I think you should. I think the perpertrators of the kind of capital crimes we are discussing should have the absolutely best counsel possible. I agree that is not always the case. That is why we have the Appeals process. In the case of those sentenced to death (in the U.S. at least) the majority of those convicted take advantage of every Appeal possible. It's not a perfect system to be sure. But who knows of a better one? I am confident that I changed no minds of any who have posted to this Thread. Frankly, that was not my purpose. I had my say, and am pleased that my minority veiws were read and did not result in any raging, irresponsible, flaming (yet). Peace. DougR |
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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas... From: GUEST,Roger the skiffler Date: 26 Jun 00 - 11:03 AM There was what I am sure is a scurrilous rumour that Texas was going to introduce an electric sofa to enable them to get rid of the backlog by executing people in threes. No, it couldn't really be true...? RtS |
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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas... From: kendall Date: 26 Jun 00 - 01:38 PM Doug, I could be a real smart ass and say you ARE blind!! by the way, that was a very funny, and extremely subtle remark. I admire your wit. Now, the gas thing, if what you believe is true, that it is the fault of the government, how come it just happened in an election year? Who is looking into this price increase? a bunch of republicans? Kinda like sending Bugs Bunny to guard the carrots... The matter of expense to keep criminals behind bars, the fact is, it costs MORE to execute them what with decades on death row, and all those appeals. I say lock them up and literally, throw the key away. Someone mentioned having executions on TV? Have we all studied the decline and fall of the Roman empire? See any similarities? |
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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas... From: InOBU Date: 26 Jun 00 - 01:48 PM My dear friend DougR: Unfortunately appeals are balenced against a notion called judicial eficency, by which notion the Supreme Court ruled that it was not unconstitutional to exicute a man in a case where DNA evidence proved that, beyond any doupt, the condememed man was innocent-, in Texes about four or five years ago if my memory serves, So, if this institutionalised culture of revenge now has corrupted to the point that in this land of freedom, the state can, without offending the Constituion, committ murder, for the sake of judical efficency, after a spesific number of appeals have been exhausted, well, pardon me if I say, this is no longer the nation I was born into. With some 87 innocent men killed by the state, and 24 or so proven innocent while on death row, let us stop making the argument that it is about the rightness or wrong of state killings, it is about certanty, humans cannot be certain enough to impower an uncaring state to kill. Larry PS Would you trust someone who payed 50,000 for a toilet seat to have life and death power over you or your child's life :-0 or :-) |
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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas... From: The Shambles Date: 26 Jun 00 - 03:05 PM It would be a brave experiment to introduce the death penalty for 'minor' crimes like mugging, robbery, burglary, shoplifting and drink driving offences. If we did actually manage to quickly execute those convicted, the subsequent crime statistics would then demonstrate once and for all if capital punishment was a deterrent?
For these crimes, it may very well turn out to be a deterrent? Then we may find that we have many further problems?
One of the problems with executions on this scale would, be to find enough people willing to do the practical things like push the buttons, pull the levers and watch all these people die. It seems to be agreed that we are generally a more violent society but strangely there still appears to be a shortage of willing executioners? I wonder how many of those supporters of the death penalty would be willing to actually execute and continue to kill those convicted? ……Would you?
That is why we come up with all these 'infernal machines' to do the dirty work for us and to try and enable us and those unfortunate souls, involved in the process of being 'hit-men for the state', to sleep at night. A return to public executions with one person with sharp axe, would at least be a more honest approach?
There is no nice or clean way from the state to coldly take a person's life away. The attempts we presently make to achieve this are hypocritical and obscene.
I am generally in favour of compromise but on this issue, the results of that compromise are clearly unsatisfactory. On this issue, it is really a case of all or nothing.
Extract from the Daily Mail 17th March 2000.
Prosecutor Burhan Moaazam said the sentence on Iqbal was fitting as a warning to others. 'the accused was not a man, he was a beast', he said. 'What was announced by the learned judge was right for him'. However Pakistan's interior minister said such public executions were not permitted and would be challenged in the High Court. Moinudeen Halder said 'we are signatories to the Human Rights Commission. Such punishments are not allowed'. The above was originally posted in this earlier thread Songs about capital punisment. |
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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas... From: InOBU Date: 26 Jun 00 - 03:38 PM Interesting post, Shambles: In fact, you hit the nail on the head. In England, in the eighteenth cent. one was hanged for everyting from bigamy to pety theift. It did little to stop crime, but it did, nearly bring England to revolution, and transportation was introduced as a safty valve. You remind me to recomend to all who are interested in the historical basis for saying there is no deterant in Capitol punishment, the book Fatal Shore, about the settlement of Australia. The point of the book is that crime is more affected by equal opportunity than by punnishment. All the best Larry |
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