Fees (concert admission prices)

Subject: Fees
From: C-flat
Date: 25 Oct 10 - 08:44 AM

In a current thread about Vin Garbutt there's comment (unchecked) stating that Vin insists that the venue does not charge less than £10 per ticket, regardless of whether his fee is guaranteed by the venue.
I can only assume his logic being that anyone who pays at least £10 for a ticket is coming to listen, whereas a token £1 or £2 entry, subsidised by the venue or whatever, may guarantee a full house but not necessarily a good audience?
To be fair to him, he's paid his dues over the years and should be able to expect a little respect from a crowd, and a paltry entrance fee could attract the merely "curious" or even "disinterested", but should he be expected to take that in his stride and win them over?
Or is it fair to set pricing so that he's only "preaching to the converted"?
Maybe there's some other reason altogether that I've failed to see?

Subject: RE: Fees
From: Vic Smith
Date: 25 Oct 10 - 08:48 AM

This is not a new situation. The reason that we have never booked him is for that very reason.... that he wanted to dictate to us what the admission price should be.

Subject: RE: Fees
From: Girl Friday
Date: 25 Oct 10 - 09:03 AM

As Vic says, other performers stipulate an entry fee. I think it's wrong of them, as it does put off people who haven't so far heard them, preventing a potential increase in their fan base. It has happened to me before, but I reasoned with the performer and got a compromise.

Subject: RE: Fees
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 25 Oct 10 - 09:03 AM

If Vin wants to make each venue charge a minimum of £10, then that is up to him.
If you do not want to adhere to that, you don't book him.
That's how things work.

Quote from C-Flat
I can only assume his logic being that anyone who pays at least £10 for a ticket is coming to listen, whereas a token £1 or £2 entry, subsidised by the venue or whatever, may guarantee a full house but not necessarily a good audience?


C-Flat it has nothing to do with that. May I suggest that rather than start a thread like this, why don't you ring Vin and ask him. This sort of thread does not do any artist any good, especially when the Mudcat Mob get stuck in.

Vin has a very shrewd head on him, and talks a lot of sense and knows what he is doing. You would do well to take time to listen to him and learn. I did and learn't an aweful lot about putting on an event and making it worthwhile for the organiser and the artist.

I'll get me coat.

Subject: RE: Fees
From: GUEST,Banjiman
Date: 25 Oct 10 - 09:17 AM

I would rather see a subject like this discussed without using the name of the artist involved.

A valid subject for organisers and artists alike..... but not as a thinly veiled attack on a specific artist.

Subject: RE: Fees
From: Nick
Date: 25 Oct 10 - 09:20 AM

There is a pub between Guisborough and Whitby that I was in when I was playing in a blues/rock band a while back and was tentatively asking about gigs. I got chatting to the landlord about bookings and he was talking about the risk he took booking people. There were two acts that were exceptions and he was always safe with - one being Vin Garbutt and the other being the Blueflies.

Both always packed the place - people will pay for an evening that they know they will be entertained by and Vin delivers. Presumably people would not fill the place and believe they get value for money continually unless it was.

Subject: RE: Fees
From: C-flat
Date: 25 Oct 10 - 09:30 AM

Wow!! Seemed to have touched a nerve or two?

Firstly let me state that this is in no way a "thinly veiled attack" on anyone at all!!
I'm a fan of Vin Garbutt, never been in a situation involving booking or fees, nor do I know him or, for that matter, have his phone number to ring him and ask him, as suggested???

In fact this thread isn't necessarily about Vin at all, rather the practice of setting fees and the motive behind it.

My initial assumption, as already stated, is that it guarantees a certain audience, i.e. the converted, if, as Arthur Itis states, "it has nothing to do with that", then what? And is it right to do that?

Subject: RE: Fees
From: C-flat
Date: 25 Oct 10 - 09:44 AM

Nick,
We've most certainly played the same venues around Teesside and East Cleveland and I completely get it when landlords want to play safe and book bands or acts that bring an audience and fill the place.
Simple economics.
But determining that audience by way of pricing is quite a different matter.
I'm not saying that it's necessarily a bad thing, just interested in how common this sort of thing is.

Subject: RE: Fees
From: GUEST,chris
Date: 25 Oct 10 - 09:48 AM

Charging £2 or £3 entrance doesn't say much about how a performer is valued- or does it!
chris

Subject: RE: Fees
From: C-flat
Date: 25 Oct 10 - 09:50 AM

It says nothing at all if the venue is subsidising......

Subject: RE: Fees
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 25 Oct 10 - 10:19 AM

C Flat
If it's not really mean't to be about Vin, then why the hell mention him?

You can guarantee a full house with Vin, even at £10 beleive me.

Subject: RE: Fees
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 Oct 10 - 10:21 AM

I am reminded of the moment in a Rumpole story where he tries to discuss a possible sentence one of his clients might incur with the judge trying the case, who happens to be an old acquaintance. "You will defend your client," the judge says with some dignity, "and if he is convicted, I will sentence him. You have your job and I have mine."

A guest singer's job is to sing. A club organiser's job is to organise all aspects of the occasion at which this singing takes place, including what entrance fee should be charged. I regard it as a gross impertinence for the guest singer to interfere to any extent whatever in such a decision. It is not his job.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: Fees
From: autoharpbob
Date: 25 Oct 10 - 10:34 AM

I sort of agree with Michael. Market economics should dictate that the singer sets his/her fee for the event, and the organiser sets what price he/she sells tickets at. I would and have paid £10 to see Vin and don't see this as an attack on him. But maybe there is a difference between saying "I think I am worth £10 a ticket" and saying "I won't come if the entrance fee is less than ....". I have heard other artists set a minimum fee in this way though and don't quite understand the reasons. Surely it can't be that the artist feels they are being sold short, as their fee for the night is unaffected. Is it something to do with standardizing prices - punters could see a person for £10 at one event and £5 at another? But surely this just reflects capacities of venues, amounts clubs are willing to subsidize, fee structures for belonging to clubs and so on? I just don't see the reasons why an artist would want to set a minimum ticket price. Please enlighten me.

Subject: RE: Fees
From: C-flat
Date: 25 Oct 10 - 10:35 AM

"If it's not really mean't to be about Vin, then why the hell mention him?"

Arthur Itis, please read my inital post again and you will clearly see where the reference to Vin Garbutt originated.

I'm not knocking Vin, if you read my posts again without colouring between the lines you'll see that!

Nor do I doubt his ability to fill a room. It's not about that!!

Subject: RE: Fees
From: GUEST,BanjoRay
Date: 25 Oct 10 - 10:37 AM

It is the guest singer's job to decide where they're prepared to sing if invited. If they don't want to perform in a club which charges less than a tenner, it's up to them. They've got their own image to consider.

Subject: RE: Fees
From: C-flat
Date: 25 Oct 10 - 10:40 AM

Is that it? Image?
Is the artist diminished by appearing for less?

Subject: RE: Fees
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 Oct 10 - 10:45 AM

BanjoRay ~~ Disagree. Don't think it is any part of their job even to ask what the entrance charge will be, so long as they are guaranteed to receive their agreed fee. Can't see how their 'image' will be affected at all.

~M~

Subject: RE: Fees
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 25 Oct 10 - 10:47 AM

Exactly BJ it is a two way thing.

Subject: RE: Fees
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 25 Oct 10 - 10:48 AM

So sorry that last comment should have read

Exactly Banjo Ray it is a two way thing.

Subject: RE: Fees
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 25 Oct 10 - 10:49 AM

Oh Michael
LOL

Subject: RE: Fees
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 25 Oct 10 - 10:52 AM

ooer Arthur!

Subject: RE: Fees
From: Will Fly
Date: 25 Oct 10 - 11:12 AM

This phenomenon isn't uncommon. It happened with another well-known musician down in Sussex last year. A local club had booked the artist as part of his national tour and, contractually, had to have both a minimum number of people in the audience and a fixed ticket price. In order to fulfill the guarantee, tickets were on sale at the club months in advance and were "pushed", as the trade has it, at every opportunity.

The regular club attendees had obviously asked the organiser some awkwards questions because, at one point in a club evening, he stood up to make a special announcement that all monies from club takings went to the running of the club and performer fees, and that no money was being used for personal profit. It was quite embarrassing for him and he was obviously not too happy with the arrangement as the club, though generally popular and well-attended, was not that big.

I could understand it if a promoter/artist/agent was worried about clubs being unable to meet an agreed fee or welching on a contract, but this sort of occasion would be, to my mind - and knowing the integrity of folk club organisers - extremely rare. I also personally don't think it right that the promoter/artist/agent should dictate a ticket price. Agree a fee with the club, sign a contract, and then let the club get on with it.

Subject: RE: Fees
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 25 Oct 10 - 11:17 AM

Most artists at that level tend do do a fixed guarantee (lets say for arguments sake £500) or a 80% of the door whichever is the greatest.

Therefore if you only charge £5 a ticket, you are in a way limiting the artists earnings.

100 @ £5 x 80% = £400

100 @ £10 x 80% = £800

All an artist has to do is ask how many you can seat amd then multiply it by £10 and charge that as the fixed fee.

Subject: RE: Fees
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Oct 10 - 11:41 AM

Spot on Arthur.

As I recall in earlier times artists were booked on a percentage of the door basis and in some cases clubs were crammed at an artificially low admission price.

This is unfair to the more "popular" guests!!

Subject: Fees
From: GUEST,John Routledge
Date: 25 Oct 10 - 11:45 AM

Above was me :0(

Subject: RE: Fees
From: greg stephens
Date: 25 Oct 10 - 11:56 AM

Occasions where I have asked for a certain ticket price when playing at a venue: when the venue charges variable ticket prices according to the status/popularity/cuteness of the guest. Makes you look a bit cheap if they want to put you at their bottom range of ticket prices. I take a glance at their prices and suggest we are put where I feel we look best, not too pricy, not too cheap!

Subject: RE: Fees
From: Vic Smith
Date: 25 Oct 10 - 11:56 AM

The local circumstances should be the thing that determines the entrance price and the local promoters/organisers should know how to set these. We all know that London event prices are higher than outside of that city - but then salaries in London are generally much higher because of the cost of living in the metropolis.

Conversely, quite a few years ago I went to an event on the Fylde coast. Innocently, I mentioned the low admission prices to the organiser and was told firmly, "Do you know what the unemployment rate is in Fleetwood?" Well, no, I didn't - but the next morning I took a walk round the local market and by the look of the poor quality and low prices of the goods, I did get the impression that there was not a lot of money around.

Subject: RE: Fees
From: Will Fly
Date: 25 Oct 10 - 12:18 PM

I suspect that the minimum guarantee/percentage of the door take is probably more prevalent in folk clubs than others. In my (30+) years playing music other than folk (jazz, rock'n roll, funk), the bands I worked in either agreed a fixed price directly with the venue or, if going through an agent, accepted the fee proposed by the agent. Once the contract was signed, that was it - the fee was paid whether the venue made money or lost money.

As a matter of routine, we generally rejected gigs where the promoter or the venue offered door percentages, as we'd seen too many scams with other bands at some venues.

Subject: RE: Fees (Vin Garbutt and admission prices)
From: C-flat
Date: 25 Oct 10 - 03:42 PM

For some reason a helpful Mud-elf has adjusted the name of this thread to include Vin Garbutts'name.
When I began this topic my intention was not to hold Vin Garbutt to scrutiny, far be it from me!
The inclusion of the name in the title suggests this is about Vin rather than the practice of controlling ticket prices.
So as not to inflame those who seek to find offence, can the thread please be re-titled simply "Fees and Admission Prices"??
Thanks
C-flat

Subject: RE: Fees (Vin Garbutt and admission prices)
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 25 Oct 10 - 03:49 PM

Wothehell. Perormers (or organizations) can charge anything they please. If the folks don't like it, they simply won't come. Neither the performer nor the organization owes the general public anything; they owe the paying public a satisfactory presentation and performance.

Subject: RE: Fees (concert admission prices)
From: Trapper
Date: 25 Oct 10 - 04:17 PM

I assume this thread is about "professional" venues - but I run a house concert series. In our case, in lieu of a guarantee, we give 100% of the gate to the artist, so we ASK the artist to set their price, letting them know that it's far more likely they'll have a full house if the ticket price is on the $10 end vs. the $20 end. Most are reasonable, and keep the price as low as they can. If they are coming a long way for the show, or if the act is more than one or two people, most of my audience understands a higher price.

However, if the artist's rate is contractually fixed in advance, then I agree with most here that say the artist should no longer have any say in the ticket price, or the minimum number in the audience.

- Al

Subject: RE: Fees (concert admission prices)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 25 Oct 10 - 04:17 PM

£10 (or the US equivalent) doesn't sound like a whole lot of money. I'd be willing to pay that amount for performers I really want to hear - BUT it's still a significant amount of money. I go to a lot of concerts for what one might consider "charity" reasons - I want to support the venue and ensure it has a full house, I feel it's my duty as a member of the local folk community, it's a new performer and I want to see if he/she is good or not, it's a not-so-good performer and I don't want his/her performance to be a flop, etc.
Some performers are a sure bet, and they're worth £10 - I'm sure Vin Garbutt is one of these. I'd hate to see £10 become the standard price, because it shuts out many performers who may not be considered to be worth £10.

$20 is becoming a fairly common price for folk house concerts in the U.S., and that's a bit steep. I find the price is high enough to discourage me from attending concerts I'm not sure I'll enjoy. $50 or more is now the price for well-known performers in big venues, and I'm rarely willing to pay that. I still regret missing my first chance to see Doc Watson a couple years ago, but the cheapest ticket was $58, and I had to drive an hour each way to get to the concert.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Fees (concert admission prices)
From: Leadfingers
Date: 25 Oct 10 - 04:22 PM

Back in The Good Old Days when I was booker for Uxbridge F C we offered a Guaranteed fee agains 80% of the door , whichever wss greatest - SOME artists did very well , but all got AT LEAST the guaranteed fee ! No WAY would I book JUST for a percentage , and No WAY would I do a Gig for just a percentage !
Small Folk Clubs , even today VERY rarely charge any thing like £10 for admission

Subject: RE: Fees (concert admission prices)
From: GUEST,Banjiman
Date: 25 Oct 10 - 06:07 PM

"I want to support the venue and ensure it has a full house, I feel it's my duty as a member of the local folk community, it's a new performer and I want to see if he/she is good or not, it's a not-so-good performer and I don't want his/her performance to be a flop, etc."

Joe, if only more people this side of the pond supported these ideals..

I run some concerts (KFFC) on this side of the pond..... we had 70+ in last month for a well known act..... and only 13 this month for an excellent but little known show. It's really frustrating but we can only seem to get people out for the established acts, people just won't take the chance.

Entry was £5 for either event, so I don't think the fee is an issue.

Subject: RE: Fees (concert admission prices)
From: open mike
Date: 25 Oct 10 - 06:21 PM

equivalent money exchange....is what?
£10 = 10.00 GBP = 15.71 USD

I think most folks would pay $15 for a concert..
and most will pay $15 for a c.d.

some venues make the artist promise not to play
within a certain mile radius of the place
for a certain amount of time..

some festivals have a similar clause...

so that people won't attend another event or venue
to see the musician, and will only have the performance
at that venue avaialble..

Subject: RE: Fees (concert admission prices)
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 25 Oct 10 - 06:44 PM

There is one element that nobody has mentioned, yet I know it for a fact that it features in many of the established artists' thinking: If you have a "following", with people prepared to travel more than 20-30 miles to see you (and I know that at Vin's gigs there are almost always people who have travelled 100 miles or even much longer) then you want there to be some parity in the ticket prices at which people can come and listen to you, both in fairness to your followers and also for the non-subsidised venues. Why would anyone go to see Vin at (say) the Red Lion in Birmingham for £12 if they can go to Bedworth to see him for £7 (subsidised because Bedworth has singers' nights)? You'd end up with a 150-seater venue staying half-empty and a 40-seater one hanging punters from the rafters, and those who went to the "expensive" one feeling cheated.

Price setting is a complex subject and it's no good seeing it from a single perspective, be that the artist's, their agent's, the venue's or the punters'. Whereas for the average performer such issues may not arise, for the more successful ones it is important to get it right, or they risk upsetting their fan club.

I know that Vin cares deeply about keeping things fair for his fans, and in the interests of that he is prepared to take a "hit" and be refused opportunities at some venues. And he is not the only one by a very long chalk.

Subject: RE: Fees (concert admission prices)
From: Betsy
Date: 25 Oct 10 - 08:30 PM

Well done George , Dick Greenhaus , Arthur and Joe for bringing some sense and sane comments to this grossly, distasteful, personalised matter.
The whole matter in the opening Thread relates to an UNCHECKED statement.
Perhaps we could start a new thread whereby all Mudcatters divulge their Monthly salary.Yeh - let's all show our arses !!!!
If the entrance fee is worth it to YOU, that's all that matters. No one is forcing anyone to book ANYONE . I'm sure that lots of other individuals and groups have Terms and Conditions proposed to Organisers ,which in turn the Organiser may accept or reject.
Let's not vilify this great performer in this manner,I don't know what is going on here, but this guy VG has been performing around the English speaking world for 40 years now and wowwing audiences graet and small .
Where does it all end - how much George wants ?,how much Tom McConville wants? how much Martin Carthy wants ? etc.etc .
It's their business how they make arrangements with Organisers - and the only thing that matters to you is whether the entrance fee is worth paying.
As for those organisers who take pride in not booking Vin , that's entirely THEIR business , but IMHO I feel sure they have deprived their audience of an evening with a very decent and remarkably talented performer, songwriter, musician and goodly humoured person.

Subject: RE: Fees (concert admission prices)
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 26 Oct 10 - 12:58 AM

Not often I would agree with Betsy 100%
But he hit it in the noggin.

Subject: RE: Fees (concert admission prices)
From: GUEST,Woodsie
Date: 26 Oct 10 - 01:55 AM

We are talking about a small "folk club" run by amateurs. We've had Martin Carthy, Wizz Jones, Show Of Hands, Dave Swarbrick perform none of which asked for a fixed high ticket price - and they all got paid well above their contracted minimum fee by receiving a % of the tickets, which were usually in the range of £4 - £7. Then this character, who as far as I am concerned is not in the same league as those I've just mentioned, demands a minimum of £10 per ticket! Well I suppose he wants to keep his music amongst the middle classes - as I along with the people in the area who are unemployed and on income support or grafting for minimum wages won't be attending.

Subject: RE: Fees (concert admission prices)
From: C-flat
Date: 26 Oct 10 - 03:08 AM

I can only assume that those people taking offense at this thread consider themselves friends of Vin and percieve him to be under attack here.
I'm weary of repeating myself....but...

I've nothing against Vin Garbutt, I think he's entitled to charge whatever people are prepared to pay, I don't think he owes me, or anyone else anything, and I'd be happy to pay £10 to see him.

What I was trying to understand was an artists motive for setting ticket prices when his fee is guaranteed anyway? ANY ARTIST.
George Papavgeris makes an excellent comment and may have got the rights of it in suggesting it has more to do with continuity and fairness. Thank you George for an intelligent response.

Subject: RE: Fees (concert admission prices)
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 26 Oct 10 - 03:12 AM

Woodsie

Looks like u get the guests you like on the terms you think fair.
So.......
You must be a happy person with no axe to grind.
Eh?

Subject: RE: Fees (concert admission prices)
From: GUEST,Woodsie
Date: 26 Oct 10 - 04:05 AM

I don't have any organising involvement with this club anymore. I just attend as a member. When I queried why the said act was so expensive I was not happy with the reason given and have chosen not to go to that event. I have no axe to grind. I just thought I would find out what others thought. This is the whole point of these forums. I personally think that it is a downright cheek to ask a club to up the price of tickets way above what people in the area normally pay for this sort of solo act. That's continuity out of tyhe window in my opinion.

Subject: RE: Fees (concert admission prices)
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 26 Oct 10 - 04:24 AM

I should also have said that I believe 100% that C-Flat intended no criticism of Vin (see his original thread title), but the title change and a few comments here and there inadvertedly and unintentionally "politicised" the thread.

And I will disagree with you Betsy on one thing, and vehemently at that: Let's not all show our arses, the thought of seeing yours has put me right off my feed this morning, not that mine is much of a work of art either!

Subject: RE: Fees (concert admission prices)
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 26 Oct 10 - 04:45 AM

"And I will disagree with you Betsy on one thing, and vehemently at that: Let's not all show our arses, the thought of seeing yours has put me right off my feed this morning, not that mine is much of a work of art either!"

So glad about that George LOL :-)

Subject: RE: Fees (concert admission prices)
From: Vic Smith
Date: 26 Oct 10 - 04:58 AM

George wrote
"Let's not all show our arses"

Hmm, George is about to play our club for the first time... I wonder if I need to put a new rider in the contract.

Subject: RE: Fees (concert admission prices)
From: Wolfhound person
Date: 26 Oct 10 - 05:08 AM

And for those of us who can't afford 10 pounds? (+ travel, beer, baby-sitting, whatever else an evening out costs)

High priced venues of any sort are excluding possible audience. I know nothing at all about the sums, though I totally accept that venues have to cover costs, but something's amiss somewhere.

Paws

Subject: RE: Fees (concert admission prices)
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 26 Oct 10 - 05:23 AM

Glad we are all mates again.

Subject: RE: Fees (concert admission prices)
From: C-flat
Date: 26 Oct 10 - 05:53 AM

If I was going to show my arse then I'd certainly insist on controlling ticket prices!! Nothing less than £10 should guarantee my modesty would be preserved!!!!
In fact I wouldn't be suprised to be offered £10 NOT to show my arse!!

Subject: RE: Fees (concert admission prices)
From: Mo the caller
Date: 26 Oct 10 - 06:41 AM

The suggestion that a venue in one place would be empty at £12 and another packed a £7 is surely irrelevant. If it is a club subsidising the guest nights from club night takings it can make the event 'ticket only' and give preference to it's regulars. That's what a club is about, surely. You support it regularly and uses it's reserves to put on acts you want.
And the price of petrol these days would outweigh any savings unless the two venues were close. In which case maybe the artist should not accept 2 bookings without telling them so that they can consult on whether there is enough audience for both.

But comparing a commercial venue with a club is like comparing apples and melons. Audience should realise that and not feel agrieved.
Hmm .. maybe the artist realises it too and wants to play in the commercial venues, and thinks that appearing elsewhere for less would spoil his chances.

Subject: RE: Fees (concert admission prices)
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 26 Oct 10 - 06:46 AM

Paws, you do have a point, but when you want to book a top artist, you are normally controlled by what they can earn, elsewhere.

I once tried to book xxxxx who were willing to come to the venue and were happy with the ticket price, but when I explained what our max number of people we could get in, they turned it down as they were playing in theatres with 300 or more audiences. I understood and wished them well and carried on with trying to book the next performer(s). There was certainly no hard feelings. It's supply or demand.

Sometimes people do not understand what goes on in the background. They arrive just before the show, sit down and enjoy it and go home.

However, what they do not realise, is that for the performer(s) it's their salary.

OK so they live 3/4 hours from your venue. Lets say, that by the time they have everything together, they set off at mid day. They get to the venue about say 5pm. They set all the gear up and do their sound checks. If they are lucky, the venue has provided them with a meal. The audience arrive beteewn 7 pm to 8pm. There is normally a support act who may do 30 minutes before the main act. The main act gets on lets say by 8:45pm and finsihes about 11pm after breaks etc. They then chat with their audience afterwards and at the same time try to pack all their gear. With a bit of luck, they may be ready to go at midight. They have a choice - do they stay at a B&B or drive home. Some do some don't. If they have a gig the next day, they do the B&B.

So at the very minimum, this band has spent 12 hours (or 16 hours if they travel home) to entertain you.

What price do you put on that and what about all the free work that the venue does in getting it organised and doing their utmost to make sure you are happy. Many hours go into one gig.