Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?

Subject: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: Nick
Date: 30 Nov 04 - 10:46 AM

I heard today in a local pub that as of yesterday Samuel Smiths pubs had banned ALL music - including juke boxes / behind bar music / live / everything.

Does anyone know if this is true?

Be aware - this is based on ONE pub so there may be more/less to it than this.

I AM NOT TRYING TO START A RUMOUR - just seeking clarification. I will phone the brewery a little later as - as a few of you know - we sing in a pub locally and I would like to know before I turn up tomorrow and get told I can't!

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: The Shambles
Date: 30 Nov 04 - 11:02 AM

If you heard it in a pub - then it must be true!

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: GUEST,Mingulay
Date: 30 Nov 04 - 11:13 AM

If true, that is truly disastrous. Wonderful ale, used to have a folk club in a Sam Smith's pub in Lincolnshire (many years ago).

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: Nick
Date: 30 Nov 04 - 11:22 AM

I have tried to get clarification from the pub but I can't get an answer at reception/area manager/her boss/managing director level - apparently they are all unavailable.

Seems a simple enough question but is apparently being dealt with at an area + level.

I will let you know when someone calls me.

Perhaps people in other areas might have more luck?

Samuel Smiths number is 01937 832225

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 30 Nov 04 - 04:19 PM

One of the carolling pubs near Sheffield is SS. Ill be ther Saturday and try and remember to ask.

Best regards,

Dave

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: oombanjo
Date: 30 Nov 04 - 04:30 PM

|Nellies In Beverley is a Sams where the folk club was on last night.   The Sunday sessions are 2nd 3rd (and if) the 5th weekend of the month. The Jazz club is Wednesday and there is a regular saltza?
night on one friday in the month. But I will check with my landlady,

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: oombanjo
Date: 30 Nov 04 - 04:47 PM

I have just phoned my landlady ,   She says that you are right with the juke box having to go, She has had the letter of confirmation, jukebox out pre Christmas.   But there is no problem with live music. Panic over i'd have had to sell up and move to a new venue,   and oh the price of a pint i'd then have to pay.

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: The Shambles
Date: 30 Nov 04 - 05:12 PM

I wonder what the reasoning is behind this move?

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: oombanjo
Date: 30 Nov 04 - 05:16 PM

Could be the thin end of the wedge for the new/proposed legislation.Or am I just being dumb.

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: ThreeSheds
Date: 30 Nov 04 - 05:20 PM

I didnt think any Sam Smith pubs ever had juke boxes I thought it was just one of those things that Humphrey didnt approve of, like advertising or selling Guiness

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 30 Nov 04 - 05:52 PM

I was also of the opinion that Sam Smiths pubs never had a jukebox as a matter of company policy.
Quack!!
GtD.

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: The Shambles
Date: 01 Dec 04 - 01:49 AM

So the news is, that the juke boxes - they don't have - are going to have to go?

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: Peace
Date: 01 Dec 04 - 02:41 AM

If I contracted to move the juke boxes that aren't there to some place else they won't be, how much do ya think a contract like that would be worth in Euros?

Bruce 'Halliburton' Murdoch

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: chris nightbird childs
Date: 01 Dec 04 - 02:43 AM

No music?? Like I said in the smoking thread, pretty soon no talking & no drinking!

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: Nick
Date: 01 Dec 04 - 03:26 AM

Most of the Sams pubs round where we are have a cd player or something just to play some background - apparently those are not ok either. And (another unconfirmed thing) I did also hear that TVs will be gone by end of year though I can't say that concerns me.

Still if live music is ok (though I have been told in one pub it isn't) that's great. HAven't heard from anyone from Sams themselves yet - hopefully someone may phone me back today

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: Peace
Date: 01 Dec 04 - 03:29 AM

I hope they've kept the live music, Nick. Good luck with the gig.

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 01 Dec 04 - 04:38 AM

No muzac, can't be a bad thing.

eric

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: treewind
Date: 01 Dec 04 - 04:48 AM

J.D.Wetherspoons pubs are totally music free. No muzak, no juke box, no live music. (No morris dancing, by implication).

If, as it now appears, Sam Smiths are banning all recorded music but allowing live music, this is truly good news. I wonder what prompted them to make that decision?

Anahata

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: Nick
Date: 01 Dec 04 - 02:57 PM

Well I spoke with a representative of the brewery and (to quote) "for the moment" we are welcome to play and she wished us well for this evening and hoped we had a good time - which is nice. And this after consultation with her bosses.

The general consensus seems to be that either it may be down to PRS - presumably an unwillingness to renew which is hence why it won't come into effect for a while; or it is a whim of chairman as he did when he took the decision to remove alcopops.

If it is the former then the first time that Sams have a complaint over live music (which few Sams pubs are licensed for I believe) presumably there exists the same possibility of a blanket decision affecting us all.

For those of you who have visited our local pub (Blacksmiths Arms in Farlington, N Yorks) you will know why we rather treasure it.

Shameless plug at the end - everyone always welcome on a wednesday evening for a singaround and play!

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: oombanjo
Date: 01 Dec 04 - 03:37 PM

Same feeling from me Re Nellies, maybe we should all get together and lobby the board.

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: The Shambles
Date: 02 Dec 04 - 02:44 AM

If these pubs are not currently licensed for live music - it may not be such a good idea to inform the bosses that you are holding live music in some of their pubs.

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: Nick
Date: 02 Dec 04 - 04:02 AM

The management structure of the company is well aware to MD level that we have been playing there for 2+ years - one of the things it shows in is in the takings.

True to say that over the last two years the biggest takings at the bar have always been on nights when there has been music on (including a friday night where 700+ pints went down - I can name the main culprits who frequent this forum as well (!!)). When you consider that the pub is based in a village with approximately 100 inhabitants (of whom 10 perhaps use it regularly) surrounded by larger villages each with their own pub/pubs and that it does minimal food you can see that anything that provides regular drinking trade is not to be sniffed at.

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 02 Dec 04 - 04:11 AM

Was I there? Strange all this, because Nellies in Beverley does have a jukebox, but it is tucked away in the pool room. Incidentally it is full of the most God awful 'heavy metal'

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: Sttaw Legend
Date: 02 Dec 04 - 04:24 AM

"including a friday night where 700+ pints went down"

I resemble that evening come morning....excellent camp site

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: muppett
Date: 02 Dec 04 - 04:37 AM

When there's nowt folky appening in Whitby the Juke box in the plough is source great entertaintment, by eck I had some good sessions in there with my local friends dancing to the old clasics and singing away to them. They'll be a few complaints if it goes.

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 02 Dec 04 - 05:25 AM

Sorry to be a bit of a bore on this but, when I did my thesis for my honours degree almost 20 years ago it was entitled "The Regulation of Alcohol and Social Control, a Case Study of the English Public House"
In it I related the incidence of violent conduct in public house's with and without Juke Boxes, in bars with Juke Boxes the incidence of violence was far greater than those without.(Yes, I did look at the demographics of the clientele) One of my conclusions was that juke boxes, in particular those played at volume, created sitautions were tempers were likely to flair, this conclusion was also arrived at by Prof Michael Smith of Bristol University although I have to admit to meeting and discussing this with him.
Perhaps in the intervening years someone has heeded the wisdom of Prof Smith (I doubt if my thesis has ever been taken of the shelf at Bradford University)and thought to apply his logic in an attempt to reduce pub violence

Just a thought

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: The Shambles
Date: 02 Dec 04 - 05:56 AM

Perhaps in the intervening years someone has heeded the wisdom of Prof Smith (I doubt if my thesis has ever been taken of the shelf at Bradford University)and thought to apply his logic in an attempt to reduce pub violence

Perhaps it has been. The Licensing Act 2003 contains an exemption from the requirment for entertainment permission for the playing recorded music that is 'incidental'. This word is not defined in the legislation but the statutory guidance does refer to juke boxes as an example and specifically the volume at which the juke box was played. If it was played a low level it could be considered as 'incidental' and exempt - at higer levels it would not be..........   

The management structure of the company is well aware to MD level that we have been playing there for 2+ years - one of the things it shows in is in the takings.

If your pub does currently have a Public Entertainment Licence there is no need for the management structure to be concerned. If your pub does not have one and there are more than (the same) two 'performers' making music - they probably would be concerned.

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: treewind
Date: 02 Dec 04 - 06:16 AM

Raggytash, your friends must have envied you for choosing a research project that necessitated visiting a statistically significant number of pubs!
(not that I remember needing any excuses for that when I was a student...)

I'm not suprised at the findings. Noise causes stress, and stress makes people drink more (I wonder if that's one reason why they have juke boxes?), and the combination can hardly encourage orderly conduct.

Anahata

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: The Shambles
Date: 02 Dec 04 - 06:24 AM

Possibly one of the factors with juke boxes is that although folk can listen to the music - without specific licensing permission - dancing to this music - which at one time was pretty much thought the entire object of this juke box music - was forbidden.

Having loud rock and roll on a juke box that you are prevented from dancing to - is hardly likely to cause good feeling and orderly conduct.

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: The Shambles
Date: 02 Dec 04 - 06:35 AM

Subject: DANCING OUTBREAK! and definition. PELs
From: The Shambles - PM
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 07:15 AM

From today' Guardian. PLEASE HELP!

Fancy footwork lands pubs in the dock

Colin Blackstock
Friday November 22, 2002
The Guardian

The pub owners tried everything to stop it including putting up signs, rearranging the furniture and even asking people to refrain. But it was all to no avail: council officials diagnosed outbreaks of spontaneous dancing, and the owners were fined £5,000.

Officials from Westminster city council initially spotted four people dancing to piped music at the Pitcher and Piano pubs in Soho, central London. Later, as the rhythm took control, that figure rose to five. On another visit as many as 11 people were dancing. Something had to be done.

The council took action against Wolverhampton and Dudley Breweries, which runs the two pubs, where customers had been spotted getting down to the piped music.

With their patrons caught red-footed, the company pleaded guilty to not having a proper licence which allows dancing.

It was fined £2,500 for each offence, plus costs of £1,600 at a London magistrates court on Wednesday.

Derek Andrews, Wolverhampton and Dudley's managed house chief, said the company had tried everything in its power to stop customers from breaking into dance, even going so far as to turn the music off, but people still continued to dance.

Council officials have also served two written warnings on another pub in Wardour Street, Soho, about people found "swaying", according to the licensed trade's newspaper the Publican.

Under current law, dancing is only allowed if premises have been granted a public entertainment licence.

Bob Currie, director of the community protection department at Westminster council, said in a letter quoted in the Publican: "Dancing could be described as the rhythmic moving of the legs, arms and body usually changing positions within the floor space available and whether or not accompanied by musical support."

ENDS

No this was not a joke..........

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 02 Dec 04 - 07:29 AM

I seem to recall that the rythymic beat of music increases the heart rate and the production of adrenaline, this combined with a volume of sound sufficient to debar clear verbal communication led to conflict through misintereptation of normal anthropological nuances, for example were a wave of hello would be construed as a gesture of aggression or defiance. Of course one would consider that alcohol played it's role in this, however Prof Smith conducted various evaluations across a wide range of bars and clearly came to the conculsion that it was the music (volume and fast pumping rythym)and NOT the alcohol that caused MOST of the conflict.

........And yes Treewind, whenever I asked friends to help me carry out research I was frequently inundated with offers of assistance to the extent where research flew out of the window and we all got pissed instead ! Ah Happy Days

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 02 Dec 04 - 07:38 AM

" in bars with Juke Boxes the incidence of violence was far greater than those without."

Music hath charms to soothe the savage breast, eh?

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 02 Dec 04 - 08:26 AM

One of my 'local' pubs (Since closed down!) regularly had a Disco on a Saturday evening , at which the most common sound heard was the Landlady screaming " Stop that @*)(^%$ Dancing !" One wonders WHY she
would book a Disco , when NOT having a dancing Licence !!

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: treewind
Date: 02 Dec 04 - 08:32 AM

Manitas, we're talking juke boxes - what's music got to do with it?
[evil grin]
Anahata

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 02 Dec 04 - 11:37 AM

Treewind ......... whilst considering the introduction of Jukeboxes as a significant event in the slow painful death of English Public Houses (and I do distinguish them from Scottish, Welsh or Irish bars)
even I have to say that on occasion I have come across one or two that actually have music on that would appeal to the most ardent dyed in the wool folkie

I'll go and wash my mouth out with soap shall I ........

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: Nick
Date: 03 Dec 04 - 06:32 AM

A thought struck last night. Could it be that Sams are trying to make their pubs unattractive to the young at a time when binge drinking etc is a problem? With no alcopops - own brand spirits and beers - and no music are they going out of their way to distance themselves from the 'branded shots/fancy bottle brigade' who frequent the 'trendier' drinking spots?

The Kings Arms in York - famous Sams pub for being underwater when the Ouse rises (quite fun standing on beer crates with the water lapping round your feet!) - is now out of the 'Micklegate run' at weekends I believe. For those who have never been to York, Micklegate is filled with bars etc and at weekends has scores of youths trawling from pub to pub for the evening, followed by peeing in the doorways and smashing the odd window. You probably have something similar in your area!

Out of interest are there many Samuel Smiths pubs that regularly do live music round the country - I know of Nellies but is it widespread?

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: The Shambles
Date: 03 Dec 04 - 06:58 AM

Nick

You seem to earlier suggest that not many were licensed for live music which if true would probably mean that there were only these that were able to provide live music. Have we established if your your pub has a PEL?

With the new Licensing Act set to come into force in February 2005, it may be a good idea to find out if your pub and others in this chain are going to apply for entertainment permission. If they do not intend to do this - the future of any live music in these pubs is very uncertain.

If they are thinking not to apply - due as you possibly indicate to concerns about PRS charges - it will be interesting to know. If it were the case - it would be important to inform your MP and get them to inform the DCMS's Live Music Forum, which is set up to study the effects of the new Act on live music.

I don't want to start a rumour either but one of the feared effects is that for the first time under the Act - PRS and similar bodies will have a (Council supplied) list of all premises where live music takes place - unlike now where their inspectors have to visit - as it will not be able to take place in any pub without this permission. It could be that a chain like this one - may see that having to pay for PRS fees in all its pubs - is the straw that breaks the camels back.

Of course all this is pure speculation - without some firm evidence.

Perhaps a letter to them would be best and a reply may serve to put your mind at rest - or not? But at least you would have some firm evidence one way or the other.

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 03 Dec 04 - 07:39 AM

If you consider the vast outlay for providing the various licences for it's managed houses, this may simply be a cost cutting exercise in order for Smith's to continue as one of the cheapest retailers of beer etc. It will also allow them to compete with Weatherspoon's on a level playing field should that be their remit. However as a devotee of the Plough during Whitby Folk Week I fervently hope they continue to allow live music (although I have to say some of the sessions in the Plough only loosely fall into this category!)

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: ThreeSheds
Date: 03 Dec 04 - 09:50 AM

Aren't we in danger of leaving our american chums out of this thread.
I was always of the opinion that Sam Smiths didn't travel too far from Tad and was suprised a few years ago to find a pint of Sams in Bangor (Maine)It tasted great but then again there wasnt any serious competition!!

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: The Shambles
Date: 03 Dec 04 - 09:57 AM

At the moment - for a pub licence just serving to serve alcohol and no late night extensions etc - it costs £30 for 3 years. Or ten pound a year. this will change in February 2005

The exact new fees have not been finalised and set in stone but if you ignore the cost of the one-off Premises Licence charge, (say £500) valid for the life of the business and the cost of the Personal Licence valid for 10 years - there will be an annual inspection fee of say £250 to be paid whether entertainment permission is in place or not.

Now for a chain this size - the increase when multiplied by each pub - is considerable and it may well be that in order to enable them to continue - some cost-cutting measures will be required.

you could argue that there is plenty of money still to be made but the key may be competition. For some of the larger pubs currently providing live music or night clubs paying very larges annual sums for the Public Entertainment Licenses and being able to open late because of this payment - will be far better off under the new Act.

They will be in competition not only for custom but also for staff.

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 03 Dec 04 - 02:59 PM

Shambles:
It appears from your post above that you have been stirring us up unecessarily for the last few years.
You seem to indicate that all the costs you have been claiming will prevent the performance of live music will not have that effect at all:
The exact new fees have not been finalised and set in stone but if you ignore the cost of the one-off Premises Licence charge, (say £500) valid for the life of the business and the cost of the Personal Licence valid for 10 years - there will be an annual inspection fee of say £250 to be paid whether entertainment permission is in place or not.

If your latest post is true, it seems we have nothing to fear!

Nigel

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: The Shambles
Date: 03 Dec 04 - 03:52 PM

If it appears that way then it is probably because I have not been directly addressing that issue or you have not read what I have said here very well. There were folk who were concerned mainly about the possible cost and the effects of this. That was not my main objection but cost remains a factor - as this thread possibly shows.

As you will not have to pay it - if you are not a licensee - you probably never did have to fear it. Those that do have to pay may see this issue and the level of the fee differently.

If you own a number of pubs and currently pay £10 a year but will have to now pay £250 for each one (before you even think about paying for a live act or bouncers) - costs do remain a factor and are unlikely to increase the level of live music.

If by 'we' you mean those of us who make and enjoy live music in pubs - we still may have quite a lot to fear. If the pubs choose not to apply - there will not be any live music permitted them as applying this permission remains optional. And pubs are not the only areas of concern.

My council are having to obtain Premise Licenses on their outdoor property just to enable the Punch and Judy shows that have taken place on the beach since the place first became a resort.

All the 'stirring up' may not have prevented the worst of the Act but it has resulted in the legislation not being quite as bad as first intended and may also have had the effect of ensuring that the suggested fee levels are not higher. But while there remains pressure from Local Authorities to increase them - there is no guarantee that these levels will not rise.

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Dec 04 - 07:39 PM

The facts have been in the papers. Well, insofar as anything in the papers is fact.

It is not a PEL issue, but PRS. PRS is trying to put the pub canned music licence relating to the performing right in the music up from about 250 per year to abour £1,000 or more per year. Smiths think this is too much.

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: The Shambles
Date: 04 Dec 04 - 02:36 AM

If it is a question of total costs for licensees and pubs - then it probably matters little which particular aspect is at issue. But you can plainly see that there is squeeze being applied that threatens to increase the total cost of running their pubs and affect the current profit levels and all aspects of their operation.

But is this rise (in addition to the costs of the new licensing requirements) sought only for the fee for recorded music? How hard are they trying to increase the fee and who has the final say in this?

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: The Shambles
Date: 04 Dec 04 - 03:03 AM

It may have been in the news but I could not find anything online about any attempt to increase fees for recorded music – perhaps someone could oblige with this information?

The following however, is a site about PRS and folk music.

http://www.tomcc.freeserve.co.uk/musicmkfiles/PRS/prs.htm

I did find this about the concern about total costs.

MP speaks out on rateable value increase
The Publican Published 3rd December 2004

MP for Brentwood and Ongar Eric Pickles, has expressed concern about the increases in rateable value on the ability of licensees to run their pubs.
Licensees in his constituency have slammed the increases of up to 30 per cent and say it will have a significant impact on the costs of running their premises.
Mr Pickles said: "Such a large increase in rateable value could have a direct impact on the annual costs of running a pub, club or bar unless the rate charged in the pound drops significantly.
"These increases are on top of potential 1800 per cent increases in fees for licences and other increased costs through new legislation being introduced by the Government."

ENDS
I think I am correct in saying that the level of the new Licensing Act fees will be banded on the premises ratable value.

I cannot see that the effect of all these increases are going to encourage many small pubs to pay musicians to provide live music.

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: The Shambles
Date: 04 Dec 04 - 06:24 AM

Not apparently a PRS issue either but one for Phonographic Performance Limited [PPL].

Quiet pint returns as pubs ban music.
Exclusive by Brendan Williams
Daily Mirror Friday 3 December 2004.

Hundreds of pubs have banned background music because of a huge rise in licence fees to play the tunes.

Brewers Samuel Smith have ordered landlords to switch off sound systems after it was announced costs could soar by 500 per cent.

Bosses refused to say why the ban was imposed. But it is thought to be in protest at the price rises by Phonographic Performance Limited, the body which makes sure record companies receive royalties.

At the moment a large pub pays £214 a year for a music licence, but that will go up to £1,000 under a new rates system which comes into force in 2006.

Yorkshire-based Samuel Smith, which has around 200 pubs, is believed to be the first brewery to ditch music over the fees. The move has been met with a mixed reception by landlords. Some claim customers will stay away, others believe many drinkers will be glad to have a quiet pint.

One said: "It's a mistake. At this time of year people will be coming in for Christmas lunches and like a bit of festive background music".

But a Samuel Smith regular declared: "Thank God. Its nice to have a quiet pint without music blaring."

Jill Drew of PPL said: "On a weekly basis the cost of playing music in pubs is not that much."

ENDS

The danger here is that the Daily Mirror does not seem to think that there is any other form of music than recorded background music and makes no distinction about exactly what Samuel Smiths ahve 'ditched'.

Many of us may welcome the absence of so-called background recorded music blaring out – but would not welcome the absence of the many forms of live music that struggle to survive in our smaller pubs.

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: GUEST,Stew
Date: 04 Dec 04 - 08:06 AM

It's sadly true, my local nellies in beverley has had to stop, but this also means it will see less of me and my mates, as going out for a pint in an atmosphere of music we like was a key point to are nites out. Now it means will be going to Hull to hear the music we like, this is a sad case as i love nellies but without the music the atmosphere will go and eventually many of its drinkers will also.

To Sam Smiths i hope you see the error of your ways before your profits go to low and you have to start closing your pubs.

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Dec 04 - 12:57 PM

Yes, my mistake, PPL, not PRS. So in fact in this respect live music will be cheaper for pubs. They will still need PRS, but not PPL.

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: The Shambles
Date: 04 Dec 04 - 05:40 PM

Not sure that I follow that this move makes live music any cheaper. It may mean that the total pub running costs will be a little less perhaps, at least for next year for Samuel Smiths and others who may follow their example. However, this fee (apart from perhaps buying the CDs) is all it costs to provide bckground recorded music.

To provide live music, on top of all the other costs to run the pub and the PRS fee - pubs still need to find the money to pay live performers.

This move by Samuel Smiths - not to pay the current fee for a year, looks to be a protest and probably will be an effective one. If others follow this example - PPL will certainly feel the pinch in 2005 and may have to re-think the £1,000 fee proposed for 2006.

It could be that Samuel Smiths may apply for the licence again - if the proposed increase does not happen - then again they may find that the majority of their customers prefer to drink and not to have to shout over background music, I know I do. PPL may prove to have shot themselves in the foot.

My concern is that no distinction is being made between recorded background music and live music in pubs. And that live music may suffer as a result of the general agreement I can foresee - that banning music in pubs is a good idea, or at least not a bad one.

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: The Shambles
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 09:19 AM

The PPL website

http://www.ppluk.com/

They have a tie-up with EFDSS - details here.
The PPL licence and your club
http://www.efdss.org/ppl.htm