BS: Internet Romance, watch out!

Subject: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: GUEST,Once burned
Date: 17 Jan 01 - 05:26 PM

Our local newspaper ran the most amazing survey a few weeks ago. At first I thought it was pretty funny but after I finished reading it I felt a bit depressed. They talked to 500 people who admitted they had tried to find true love via the internet, and had eventually met that person in the flesh. Here's some of the things they came up with.

Women reported that over 80% of the men they met lied about things the women considered important. In order, Marital Status or 'degree of marital separation'. Job importance. Having a job, period. Height. weight. Amount of hair. Size of sexual organ. (I'm just repeating what they said) Type of car. Having a car period. The desire to have a long term relationship rather than a short affair.

Men reported that close to 85% of the women they later met in person lied about something. In order, their weight. Age. Using old or 'doctored' photos. Being on medication. Not understanding that the relationship 'wasn't forever'.

Only 8% had no complaints when they finally met each other in person. Less than 10% continued on with the relationship after finally meeting.

Those are bad odds. Maybe the old fashioned ways are still the best.

Twice shy

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: Zebedee
Date: 17 Jan 01 - 05:33 PM

The song The Lily of the Net in the DT database pretty much says it all.

Ed

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: Gervase
Date: 17 Jan 01 - 05:37 PM

I did a feature on online dating when I worked as a hack, and the general consensus of those I spoke to was that the whole thing was a dangerous lottery. Women tended to get targetted by married men in search of a bit on the side, while men tended to attract the desperate, possessive types.
No-one I spoke to was really happy with online dating, and few would recommend it, although many of them saw it as a way to while away dull times in the office by inventing strange personas. One guy admitted to being several women just to take the piss out of other blokes!
Personally, I'm happy with this place - more love and affection here than a squillion chat rooms, and who needs cyber-sex when you've got 'Spaw's vitual farts :^)

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: Peg
Date: 17 Jan 01 - 06:23 PM

I think those who *actively* go looking for love or sex on the net are bound to be disappointed. I am on AOL and my handle starts with the letter A, so I get trolled by men ALL THE TIME, instant messaging me, some subtle and charming, some blatant and stupid, all looking for basically the same thing...it happens so often and so many of them seem to have a similar M.O., that I have to assume at least some of the time they manage to connect with women and have sex with them. Eeewww, I say.

That said, I have, on more than one occasion, made a connection with someone online which *later* grew/escalated into a potentially romantic thing (usually phone calls follow email, etc.)

First time: We emailed, chatted and talked on the pohoen for weeks. But in the end I was simply not attracted to the guy. Mutual friend introduced us and sorta tried to play matchmaker. He did not lie about anything far as I know. But he was not at all who I thought he was. He seemed to be this very confident, outgoing, socially-skillful individual but in person was not. I, on the other hand, was just what he expected; and he was quite attracted to me. Very awkward when he came to visit...

Second time: we met through a mutual cause we are both active in. Long phone conversations, talk of meeting, going on trips together, etc,. MUCH listening to how his last relationship (6 yrs) broke up. Our "romance" broke off when he met another woman the exact same way and decided he had more of a "connection" with her. Several months later I had occasion to visit his city (very far away) and we got together and for all intents and purposes you'd have thought we had a pretty srtong attraction for each other. I found out in the course of my short visit that he had lied about some very significant portions of the "other woman" thing (who, BTW, when he went to visit her in person for the first time, offered him an ultimatum about moving in with her and relocating, and when he said he did not want to, threw him out and told him to go stay in a hotel. Why he chose that manipulating little psycho over me, I will never know). So, having forgiven him months earlier, found I had even more reason not to trust him. There is still a strong attraction but why would I want to get involved with someone like that? (sigh) Because love is stupid. It is also blind...and experience has taught me, it is also occasionally deaf, dumb and unable to smell.

As hard as it is to meet people (witness the "Unhooked Catters") thread, I must agree, the old-fashioned way of meeting and mating is best. It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that schwing...ya know?

Peg (alchemical goddess)

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: Peg
Date: 17 Jan 01 - 06:28 PM

I should also add: I appreciated seeing those stats on what people lied about most, broken down by gender. VERY interesting.

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: wysiwyg
Date: 17 Jan 01 - 06:32 PM

Well, I don't really play the autoharp either, and I'm not actually a Christian. And Hardi-- a real pastor? Are you nuts??

~S~

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: Peg
Date: 17 Jan 01 - 06:38 PM

why would someone lie about something which is physically unalterable, like age or height or in most cases, weight?

I mean, if they intend on ever meeting this person, in person.

Don't even get me started on why the size of the mens' sexual organ was even a topic of conversation BEFORE they met...the fact that these women still went to that meeting, after this information was offered (perhaps solicitied, who knows?) is REALLY scary to me.

I think I shall become a freakin' nun.

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: Amergin
Date: 17 Jan 01 - 07:07 PM

Been there done that....she moved up here from CA and nothing that we told each other was lied about....in fact I did find true love and in the end a broken heart...

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: GUEST,mkebenn at work
Date: 17 Jan 01 - 07:17 PM

Oh lord, Ed, thanks for pointing out "Lily of the Net", can't wait to get home and see how it sounds. Mike

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: kendall
Date: 17 Jan 01 - 07:28 PM

I've had my share of the "personals" and, although I have met some nice women, most of them have been wackos.For instance; a woman called me, we talked, she sounded like a modern type, but, then she insisted that I try to describe her..I had no clue, but, went along. Then, believe it or not, she wanted to know if I could guess her bra size! I knew better, but, moth to the flame...she invited me to lunch. It was obvious that we had nothing in common, and, in the parking lot we were discussing the new "rules". I casually mentioned that I was flexible. I thought that if you invite me to lunch, you should pick up the tab, If I invite you, I pick up the tab. Well..she invited me, but I picked up the tab out of habit. When I told her my flexible rule, she got kinda huffy and said "Do you think I should have picked up the tab because I invited YOU?" I replied not necessarily.." but by then she was locked into that old fashioned thing, and she said "WELL..I dont have a penis"!! To which I replied..."WELL, I do, but I've never tried to pay a bill with it"! She didn't even smile! No sense of humor at all..a fatal flaw as far as I'm concerned.

No, the best way to meet is through a mutual friend. Or, it wouln't scare me to meet any mudcatter. 'course, I dont scare easily.

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: WyoWoman
Date: 17 Jan 01 - 08:32 PM

Be afraid, Kendall. Be very afraid ...

Actually, chemistry is so important -- just plain ol' physical attraction of one body for another -- it's a wonder relationships created in thin air like this ever work out. Of course, it also depends on what you're looking for in a mate. If purely or mostly cerebral and shared interests are da' bomb for you, then getting together on the basis of talk can be fine. But ... if you care about the physical and you get together and there isn't that arc of energy between the two of you, or the possibiity of it on down the road a bit, it all seems doomed to fizzle.

And I can't for the life of me imagine a relationship of any conceivable (er, uhn... freudian slip there, maybe) value that would begin or end with a discussion of the size of his pee-pee or her ta-tas. Good grief ...

except ....

nah ...

ww

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: flattop
Date: 17 Jan 01 - 08:38 PM

Hey GOB,

Eight percent with no complaint when they finally met each other isn't a bad return on investment if you appreciate numbers. The return may not even be far out of line with non-internet-fleshy meetings. It's roughly equivalent to running into 9 assholes before finding one who really cranks your V6. Not unreasonable. It doesn't matter, if you swill drinks in bars or wiggle your ass at church socials with those terribly danty lemon squares and cherry oatmeal squares and a strangely folded napkin, 8 in 100 ain't too shabby.

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: Amos
Date: 17 Jan 01 - 10:23 PM

Well, bud, the beauty of the hard-won, and well-crafted, long-term relationship is that our per centage of wins over losses on encounters goes up to over 85%. Just in case you wondered why some guys work so hard at making one! The numbers can't be beat!

And Peg, all I can say is the jerk had his brain in upside down; you're worth twenty years of anyone's life any time, and that should be completely obvious.

Regards,

A

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: Matt_R
Date: 17 Jan 01 - 10:31 PM

I think we should as Mousethief about this.

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: Lox
Date: 17 Jan 01 - 10:49 PM

Its sad that people are forced to lie because of social pressure, and it's sad that people bow to that presure.

lox

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: Allan C.
Date: 17 Jan 01 - 10:54 PM

Well, I'm not sure I could quite put it into the "romance" bracket; but after traveling around this continent and having met some 75 Mudcatters, I can say that (were I not already spoke fer) there were LOTS of Mudcat women who I would at least want to take out once or twice. Of course, who knows whether they would have felt the same.

I will confess to having arranged to meet with a female 'Catter once who captured my imagination. We drove for miles and miles to see one another in the real world. This may well have been the first such event of its sort among the people of the Mudcat. There have been others, I know, since then. There were no lies, no subterfuge on either side; but reality was still a whole 'nother thing. No magic. We soon headed back up our respective roads; but we later continued to correspond as good friends.

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: flattop
Date: 17 Jan 01 - 11:00 PM

I'm not sure we have opposing views, Amos. You're not saying that you work hard to develop well-crafted, long-term relationship with 100% of the women at you church socials, are you?

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: Peg
Date: 17 Jan 01 - 11:46 PM

Amos; thanks. I needed that. :)

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: katlaughing
Date: 17 Jan 01 - 11:47 PM

Ummm, Allan, when are you headed back to Why-Oh-Myn?**BG**

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: GUEST,Once burned
Date: 18 Jan 01 - 02:08 AM

Some of the stories in the original article were positively creepy. I get the feeling that most of the people lied simply because they didn't think they'd ever actually meet. I forget what percentage had already had cyber sex before they met, but it was most of them anyway. One woman claimed to have met ten out of state men in less than a year. I'd be afraid of finding out that someone whom I thought was interesting was really a psychopath.

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: Wolfgang
Date: 18 Jan 01 - 03:40 AM

I doubt that the percentage of lying is much less in personal contact if you disregard aspects like height, weight, lookings you just cannot lie about to a person who sits next to you. But the other lies (marital status, wishes, feelings,..) come about as often in personal contact. In some of the cases these people also lie to themselves, they'd love to believe, e.g., that there are more important things in their lives than their job.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: GUEST,Fibula Mattock
Date: 18 Jan 01 - 04:40 AM

About 6 years ago I was in constant e-mail contact with a guy - a friend-of-a-friend-of-a-friend type thing. We got on fantastically and after several months of writing to each other I flew the whole way to the US of A to stay with him and his family. I had a wonderful time, and a lovely holiday romance, but that's all it turned out to be (I was only 19). He moved back to Ireland, where he was originally from, and it freaked me out as I felt we were constantly being questioned and watched by his friends to see how we got on because at that stage not many people we knew of met through the internet. (I eventually lost touch with him, and it was probably my fault that I did.) Neither of us had seen pictures before we met - we just knew the person who wrote those e-mails. At the end of the day, there just wasn't the chemistry to sustain anything and we had a few fundamental difference that just didn't come out in the e-mails. Plus I was too young to be having serious, lasting romances with anyone. But it would have made for a nice episode of the bloody awful "Dawson's Creek".

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: Hollowfox
Date: 18 Jan 01 - 09:09 AM

I think I'll stick to meeting people at folk festivals. Mary (who doesn't shop for clothes from catalogs, because she can't be sure of the fit there, either.)

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: Mrrzy
Date: 18 Jan 01 - 09:32 AM

I was leery of meeting anyone in person that I had only known through the Net; but since most of my opportunities have been group ones (meet both BeauDangles and Bill Sables together, or all the folks at the chantey sing) or friends-of-friends (met moonjen at AllanC's) - the only exception was Mbo, as he was called at the time, but even that was done very publicly, at a hotel with my twins. And it made me very, very nervous. But were I on the prowl, I'd go to face meeting places - restaurants, coffee houses, etc. It's bad enough that I have authors and customers on the phone and email all the time, and then meet them at my annual conference, where they look nothing like my image - I also don't like seeing movies when I've read the book because of the distortion (subjective) from the mental image. I can't imagine attempting to develop a romantic relationship like that. But a couple of my most happily married cousins (well, my cousin and her husband, no incest here!) met through a dating service... so maybe it's just me.

I've never lied about my weight, I just don't weigh myself so what I say is a true estimate anyway!

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: MMario
Date: 18 Jan 01 - 09:42 AM

I know it is wierd enough meeting people *without* prior planning whom you have "met" through the internet. Since I frequent two groups where the members can end up at faires or festivals I meet quite a few - I can tell where they know me from by the way they pronounce my name! MudCatter's tend to say "Muh-Mario" (at least at first), while Rennies just say "Mario"

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: kendall
Date: 18 Jan 01 - 11:07 AM

The only time I lie is when I'm doing a performance and getting paid for it. There is nothing about me that I'm ashamed of.

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 18 Jan 01 - 11:15 AM

Kendall, I don't understand why you have to lie at a paid performance.

Bonnie

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: Midchuck
Date: 18 Jan 01 - 11:31 AM

Bonnie, Kendall tells stories, many of which are, I hope, untrue. Legally, none of these are lies, because they are told to entertain, with no actual intent to deceive. (or is it "decieve?" I before E except after C and all that crap...Max, when are you going to build a spell checker into Mudcat?)

Anyway, notwithstanding the above, in the Northeast, at least, tellers of tall tales refer to themselves as "liars" with great pride, and sometimes claim to be "Champion liars."

Peter.

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: kendall
Date: 18 Jan 01 - 11:45 AM

And thats the truth

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 18 Jan 01 - 11:57 AM

After a rather messy divorce I wanted to stay away from the other sex for a while. About a year later I happened upon a lady quite by accident on the internet. Random chance sums it up best I think. We e-mailed for a period of time, agreed to meet in a public place (we had already exchanged photos), and I fell in love on the spot. 3 years married this April and about 5 years total time with each other. I don't know the odds - but I don't do bars, church, or random social gatherings and my odds of meeting My Love were zero but for the internet.

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 18 Jan 01 - 12:35 PM

Well I was certainly nervous about meeting Catspaw face to face. I spent the whole night before thinking: "Will he be the fascinating, charming, devil-may care bundle of excitement that I see daily on Mudcat? When I saw him puffing and huffing up the hill in Niagara Falls Ont. with three possums on a leash, I could hardly contain myself! I raced up to him, and in my enthusiasm, pulled off his toupee, and accidently dislodged his wooden leg. As he tumbled down the hill and over the Falls, I could only think, what might have been!" I have no such illusions of Kendall...whom I also hope to meet some day. I picture him as a grizzled old fart with a guitar and funny accent!

Other than being only five foot six, Big Mick was exactly as I pictured him.

Rick

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: Allan C.
Date: 18 Jan 01 - 12:51 PM

...and Rick was NOT bigger than life (and did not, in my estimation, seem to be a living god either *G*).

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: Naemanson
Date: 18 Jan 01 - 12:52 PM

Does this mean my plans for The Mudcat Romance Connection have to be scuttled? Oh well...

I have met a few women through the internet and with one exception none of them lasted beyond the email stage. That exception has stayed on as a pen pal, nothing more.

As far as meeting someone in the clubs, pubs, and bars goes, well, in the 5 1/2 years since my divorce I only met one woman and she wouldn't stay the course.

But I have hopes, and I'm going dancing tomorrow night.

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 18 Jan 01 - 12:55 PM

Yes but Rick, the question still remains, did Spaw puff and huff in bed while his 3 possems watched you guys make love after you pulled off his toupee and within all that excitement accidently discovered his wooden leg?

Its one thing to meet a buddy you have grown fond of through cyberspace. It is another thing to meet someone as a potential partner or romance.

Little Neo

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 18 Jan 01 - 12:58 PM

Careful Brett...that enchanting creature may be Bill Sables in a dress!

Allan. We both have some of Buddha's characteristics....around the waistline.

Rick

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: mousethief
Date: 18 Jan 01 - 01:05 PM

I must be in the minority. That's okay. I've never been one to run with the pack.

It certainly was a case of "not looking for love" -- Just an online friendship that blossomed into something more.

Been married 3.5 years now. Still giddy in love. Full story at blicky (warning: there's a lot of "religious" stuff in the story too!).

Alex

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: Allan C.
Date: 18 Jan 01 - 04:25 PM

I never thought of it in that way, Rick. Hm-m-m I think I like it. Do I get to trash the diet now? I had hoped to start looking a little more like Rama except that I'd rather be of a different tint:

Rama

My daughter, Kelly, has had numerous cyber-to-real-life encounters. They have led her to cities all across the U.S.. Some of them worked out to be good relationships, some of which lasted for quite a while. Others quickly turned sour. My best guess is that she has met agreeable people more than fifty percent of the time. Lies have been minimal and less than crucial in most cases. A few have resulted in what will probably be lifelong friendships. She has usually been very careful and has had enormously good luck IMO.

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: bbc
Date: 18 Jan 01 - 08:19 PM

I guess Duane D. & I fall into the 8%. We've been together 3 1/2 years & continue to be very happy. We had both tried newspaper personal ads at various times w/out success. 3 weeks after I put an ad in meetmeonline.com, he was the 1st person to answer. We have compatible values, ways of thinking, & spiritual beliefs. He loves my teenage children & wants to be w/ me the rest of our lives. He thinks I'm gorgeous & wonderful, even though he knows me. I like him, too. ;) Our homes are 2+ hours apart & we are both over 40. Pickin's get slim. I'm really glad we met. Meeting people anywhere holds some risk. You make your choices & take your chances.

best,

bbc

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: Allan C.
Date: 18 Jan 01 - 08:29 PM

I just spoke with Kelly about this. She said her success average was much higher than my estimate. Her impression of what has made all the difference is that most of these were people with whom she had been conversing online for a year or more rather than the month or so that seems to be more common. In fact, the only one she caught in a lie and who turned out to be other than as advertised was the only one whom she had known online for only about a month.

That should tell us something, I would think.

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: SINSULL
Date: 18 Jan 01 - 08:45 PM

I had a lovely evening with a gentlemen who introduced himself by confessing to manic-depression and lining up his medications for proof. Another hated his wife beyond belief because she had thrown him out without so much as a dinner plate or place setting of silverware. The evening got downright hostile when I pointed out that all were available for less than 20 bucks at Woolworth's and I wouldn't break up a set of good china or silverware either. By the way, they had separated 12 years earlier. It was still an issue. The best was a man who shared my love of opera and ballet but insisted on wearing his baseball cap covered in gold military braid during all performances. I did find one very romantic, gentleman who pursued me relentlessly, proposed marriage, and then crawled back into bed with his dead wife - don't ask. be afraid. Be very afraid.

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: kendall
Date: 18 Jan 01 - 09:30 PM

crawled into bed with his first wife? definition of necrophelia..That uncontrolable urge to crack open a cold one.

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: DougR
Date: 18 Jan 01 - 10:54 PM

WyoWoman: Ta-tas?

DougR

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: sophocleese
Date: 18 Jan 01 - 10:56 PM

kendall, that's sick and I'm giggling madly, thanks.

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: John Hindsill
Date: 18 Jan 01 - 11:07 PM

My niece met a fellow in a chat room. They have now been happily married for 25 days. It can happen!---John

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: Peter Kasin
Date: 18 Jan 01 - 11:49 PM

In one way you can get to know someone intimately through the net - in that it is easier to express inner thoughts when writing, than with talking over the phone - generally. You can stop, think, erase and re-write, (assuming one is writing honestly) and take the time to put your thoughts together. What's missing is, as y'all know, is knowing whether you and the other person can get along with each other, and have chemistry, and that of course is essential, but let's not be too harsh on the potential of the printed word for discovering what's inside the person at the other end in a way that's very revealing. Granted there's the power to deceive, as well.

-chanteyranger

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: Calach
Date: 19 Jan 01 - 06:21 AM

Hey, ok guys, Thyme2dream/Sabra and me must also fall into the "8%".
Met on line in a yahoo chat room, met in the flesh 6 months later, and we're still together/apart 21 months on. It's been a great adventure for us both.
We plan to stay together/get married at the end of 2001.
She's visited me once, I've visited her 4 times now, and we're still very much in love.
We both sing folk, play guitar/mandolin/bodhran and I write songs and other stuff.
We both think that the net is a safe place to get to know someone; but the proviso which accompanies this is that BOTH PARTIES MUST TELL THE TRUTH.
BTW.... I am in Edinburgh, Scotland, she is in Kansas, USA.
Both of us have our pics in the mudcat resources.
Best of luck to all who sail in her......
Calach.

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 19 Jan 01 - 06:55 AM

Calach, Allan & Alex (& anyone else I've missed) I find it inspiring to hear your true cyberspace love stories. Gives me faith.
I do believe we can find the right mate in all sorts of places, no reason not to include cyberspace. Although for myself, I guess I wouldn't go looking on the internet for romance. The same way I usually do not go looking for a partner out there in the 3D world. I have placed my faith in Chicken Little. May he drop the right man for me out of the clear blue sky at the right time in the right place.
Looking for romance can waste a lot of my time and energy I could put towards more productive things I want to accomplish. When my true love comes knocking on my door I have this feeling Chicken Little will hit me over the head with his love bat.

Little Neo

Subject: Thread Creep
From: Allan C.
Date: 19 Jan 01 - 07:58 AM

Chicken Little was scurrying down the road, telling everyone he met that the sky was falling. He came upon a little sparrow.

"The sky is falling! The sky is falling! I must go tell the king!"

The little sparrow suddenly flipped down upon its back and stuck its feet in the air.

"The sky is falling! The sky is falling! What the heck are you doing?"

The little sparrow looked up to the heavens, extended is feet a bit farther and said, "One does what one can!"

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: kendall
Date: 19 Jan 01 - 08:56 AM

A few years ago, a woman here in Maine answered an ad in the personals, or maybe she instigated it..anyway.. this guy shows up on her porch with a chain saw. Professed his love, started the saw, and cut his own head nearly off. He died in a pool of blood on her porch. This was in the news, it's not a story.She just had the porch painted too..

Subject: RE: B.S. Internet Romance, watch out!
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 19 Jan 01 - 08:57 AM

Allan are you suggesting I should lay down on my back, stick my feet up into the air and do what I can? Oh that would only get me into trouble.

:)

Little Neo