Research project: Traditional Folk music

Subject: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: GUEST,Cristian Nicchitta
Date: 25 Jan 07 - 08:57 AM

Hello all,
          As part of my music degree i have decided to research to what extent text based representation encourages the transmission of Folk traditions. In other words, i would like to hear from folk musicians, concerning how they would go about sourcing a song... would they learn it aurally in the age old tradition... would they make use of folk collections such as those of Baring-Gould and Childe? Another area i would be interested in hearing about is in how far it is acceptable or necessary to adapt and interpret a traditional song in your own way... whether it is predominantly the words and the melody that convey the folk tradition and how important harmony is. Also some opinions on the importance of preserving folk traditions would be great.

I would be very grateful for any feedback and you can contact me on the following emaill address - [e-mail]

Thanks again

cristian nicchitta

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: GUEST,doc.tom
Date: 25 Jan 07 - 10:14 AM

Ah, Dartington! The simple answer is ALL. I'd also be inclined to use Child, rather than Childe - more comprehensive.

I suspect different singers will give you different answers about the rest - largely because there are different motivations for performing this stuff.

Not helpful, I know, but the subject as defined in your posting is too huge for a degree discourse - I'd recommend narrowing it down - A LOT.

Good luck - and keep fighting the move to Totnes. Might be useful to meet up some time - we're at the other end of the County, but sometimes down your end. Try our website at www.umbermusic.co.uk

Tom Brown

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Jan 07 - 10:17 AM

Hi Christian

Since you are at Dartingtom you are likely to have some familiarity with the material with which you plan to work.

I (as one of the resident pedants around here) would urge you to be careful and consistent with your definitions: for example you speak of "folk musicians" and you can find several of us prepared to dance a Highland Fling on the point of a needle to decide (or more likely disagree) which such musicians are "folk singers", which are "folksong singers", which are "revival singers", which are "source singers" and which are what else. Of course to those like me, singer songwriters are by definition NOT folk musicians, but there are others who think they are. There was a useful coinage I spotted the other day, but I can't remember what it was.

There are many many threads where we argue about this, and they tend to be thought of as about one category "What is Folk" - so if you look or search for some threads that might be about that you may find a large body of opinion. There will be little that agrees with anyone elase, and if there are signs of agreement they may or may not indicate an Atlantic divide.....

You may also want to compare the EFDSS with Comhaltas and/or with the Newcastle degree. For some discussion on that search for Captain Birdseye or Dick Miles.

My suspicion is that so far as the new generation (largely Newcastle graduates) insofar as they do or use traditional material, it will largely spring from written sources, but in some cases historical field recordings - but in some cases (Hares spring to mind) the amount changed may be so radical as to undermine any assertion that any part of the tradition is being preserved.

Have fun.

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: RTim
Date: 25 Jan 07 - 10:19 AM

This is a wonderful subject, and something I would love to talk with you about face to face - but as I am currently living in the USA it would be difficult. However, my daughter - Cat Radford, works at the college and you should try and talk to her as well as looking at my web page - www.timradford.com.

Tim Radford

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Jan 07 - 12:55 PM

ah,Ilearn my songs from recordings, books ,and other singers.
forexample I might hear a singer, singing a song.And think golly gosh, havent heared that in ages, remember the tune,go home and find an interesting collection of words ,and put the two together[and we have a new hybrid].
I consider nmyself a singer,and my repertoire consists of traditional material, contemporary material written in a traditional style,and very occasionally blues. http://www.dickmiles.com

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 25 Jan 07 - 12:58 PM

Christian,

What Richard said.

Also,

If you are going to write some sort of academic paper about "folk traditions"
and if the paper is to be in some sense "scholarly"
You need to make sure your paper has the following three components in addition to all the other stuff.
1. A review of the literature - what other scholars have mean by "folk traditions" (to prove that you have done your homework)
2. A detailed explanation of what you will mean by "folk traditions" (to prove that you have attained some level of conceptual clarity about your topic)
3. Some sort of justification for your usage of the term "folk traditions" in the paper (to prove that you have actually though about the homework you've done)

Apologies, of course, if I have simply stated the obvious.

Russ (Permanent GUEST and pedant in remission)

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: Folkiedave
Date: 25 Jan 07 - 03:11 PM

I can recommend some reading if you like - do you have access to a good library with loads of books? If not and you are in this area come and visit me. You can have a complete run of my collection. But be wary they are all for sale for I sell folk books, and most are tempted!!

I also agree with those who say this is too large a subject. You might look at something smaller say the relationship between (I make this one up) Broadside Ballads and records made in the what people call the folk revival of the 60's/70's. Instead of having an idea and seeking the material - a hard way to do things - see what material there is and make up what your dissertaion is from there. Much easier!!

Go to things like the Baring Gould Weekend down your way, Wren Trust also down your way and Eddie Upton at Folk South-west- all may prove helpful. Many of the books you need are on the web nowadays (Project Gutenberg is a good place to start).

There, see how helpful we all are? :-)

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: wysiwyg
Date: 25 Jan 07 - 03:34 PM

Did anyone email the requestor to let him know that there's all these responses and a widening discussion available right here?

~Susan

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 03:20 AM

Do I detect a long, interesting and occasionally acrimonious thread opening up here; I do hope so.
Richard Bridge and Guest Russ are quite right; you are going to have to define what you mean by 'Tradition' if you are going to make a half-decent job of your project.
In my opinion, all you are going to get by asking your questions to members of this forum, is a picture of 'the revival', people who had nothing to do with a living tradition, but have come along from the outside and taken up the old songs and music. Unless Sheila Stewart, or one of the other of the miniscule number still with us avails themselves of a computer, you are not going to get a response from a traditional singer. I suggest you read through an earlier thread on this forum entitled 'What is Traditional Folk Song' and the related threads for background to this.
Unfortunately, there is very little information on the tradition, simply because the collectors never got round to asking the singers themselves. I believe that the nearest you have is 'Jeannie Robertson', James Porter's and Herschel Gower's study of the great Scots Traveller, but this falls far short of gathering enough information to give us a full picture of the tradition.
Here in Ireland the tradition lasted relatively late and the singers learned their songs mainly orally, from family members, from neighbours. Also from 'the ballads', the song sheets that were sold around the fairs and markets, mainly by Travellers, a practice which went on right into in 1950s, when records and the radio took over the role of entertaining the general population.
I suspect the answers you will get by asking forum members will be similar to those supplied so far by Captain Birdseye. We learned our songs mainly from books, records and from other revival singers. Those of us who have been involved for centuries started off with collections like A L Lloyd's and Vaughan Williams' 'The Penguin Book of English Folk Song', and MacColl's 'Singing Island' and Frank Purslow's selections from the Hammond and Gardiner collection 'Marrowbones', 'Foggy Dew'. 'Wanton Seed' and 'Constant Lovers'. In the early days we also had a wealth of recordings of real traditional singers, such as those made by the BBC, of people like Harry Cox and Sam Larner, and later the songs of Walter Pardon (arguably the three most important English singers in living memory). One of the changes that has taken place nowadays is that singers seem to me to now be learning their songs almost exclusively from other revival singers (along with the mannerisms, idiosyncrasies and accompaniments). Look through Mudcat and you'll find requests for 'Martin Carthy', or 'Kate Rusby', or 'Christie Moore' songs rather than 'Harry Cox' or 'Mary Anne Carolan' or 'Sheila Stewart' ones.
Thanks for starting this thread; I hope you get as much out of it as I think we might.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: Kevin Sheils
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 04:09 AM

"Those of us who have been involved for centuries started off with collections like A L Lloyd's and Vaughan Williams' 'The Penguin Book of English Folk Song', and MacColl's 'Singing Island' and Frank Purslow's selections from the Hammond and Gardiner collection 'Marrowbones', 'Foggy Dew'. 'Wanton Seed' and 'Constant Lovers'"

Exactly so in my case Jim (being centuries old) and I'll just add also that Stephen Sedley's "The Seeds Of Love" was a staple as well for me.

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: Pete_Standing
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 04:17 AM

It is surprising what you can find hidden even in your local library. At Oxford I managed to find 7 books, two of which were collections of Cecil Sharp, three by Frank Kidson, one by Lucy Broadwood and another by Roy Palmer. Some of these have interesting forwards on what the collectors did with the songs (ie editing) and some with variations in tunes and story of either the same title or different titles.

A recent treasure is Topic's Voice of the People. It is expensive to buy all 20 CDs but maybe the library could be persuaded? This is as close as many of us are going to get to the old recordings without making long journeys.

Another resource is the Bodleian Broadsides and I think folkinfo.org that 'catter Jon Freeman runs.

But yes, the replies you have had so far should get you going. WRT to some labels, there are source singers, song carriers, revivalists and singers, I guess (thinking on the hoof). Source would be part of the tradition and I doubt if many of those are left in the UK because of their age, though notable exceptions are the Copper family of Rottingdean. Song carriers are performers who have collected from source singers (like the Watersons, Shirley Collins), revivalists I guess are the people/leaders who got involved in the fifties/sixties revival and singers, well thats the rest of us.

The EFDSS at Cecil Sharp House in London has a vast archive, but it would be a long, expensive and bewildering trip. Now what would be interesting would be to get an interview with the Coppers, Martin Carthy and Shirley Collins (who has been collecting with Alan Lomax in the US?) - I'm sure all of these people would be happy to help if they had the time. Send them an email explaining what you are trying to do, they are all lovely and approachable people.

Did you get to see Folk Britannia on the telly? Lots of people thought it was flawed, but it was interesting nonetheless.

Finally, there are still gypsies who have a singing tradition. How you would go about this I don't know and what measures you would need to mind, again I don't know.

For people who are performing today, where they get their source from is not necessarily relevant but acknowledging the source is - this gives the listener an idea of where the song came from, the inspiration for doing it and the manner of doing it. It is probably also incumbent upon us to do a bit of research about the history of the song and where it came from - but hey, hours in the day and all that.

Good luck, an exciting time lies ahead. Do you play/perform yourself?

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: Folkiedave
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 04:42 AM

I contacted the person in question.

Some great replies there!

As a piece of blatant self-advertisement - I have copies of all the books mentioned so far for sale.

Dave

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: GUEST,doc.tom
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 05:53 AM

Don't be put off by an anonymous "Do I detect a long, interesting and occasionally acrimonious thread opening up here; I do hope so."

All that counts in your work is that you acknoqledge others' definitions, and clarify your own for the purposes of the dissertation - let everybody else keep arguing, thay always will.

Tom Brown

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 08:30 AM

dear JIM CARROLL,I said I learned my songs from other singers,I didnt specify that they were exclusively revival singers,.
I am happy to learn,AND TO HAVE LEARNED somgs from anyone. traditonal,OR revival.http://www.dickmiles.com

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: RTim
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 08:53 AM

Reluctantly I would like to take slight issue with Jim Carroll and what he says. (I am NOT being very critical)
The originator of this thread quite clearly says - "Folk musicians" and not "Traditional", and asks simply about how one learns songs, etc.. That should not start a debate as to what is or is not Traditional music or be an excuse for being critical of "revival" performers.
We all sing and play for different reasons, and in our performances we seldom get the opportunity to explain exactly what the music does for us, or explain our connection to each and every song, or even explain the simple joy of making music.
I my opinion all performers are great, even those whose music is not to your taste - you just don't listen to them.
However - I do think it interesting to know why someone makes the choices they do and where they look for their material, etc. And that is what the original question was about!
Tim Radford

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: GUEST,Brian Peters
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 10:29 AM

To confine myself to Cristian's original questions, without getting bogged down in arguments aired already on Mudcat at great length......

1. "to what extent text based representation encourages the transmission of Folk traditions...."

Text has encouraged the transmission of traditional song for hundreds of years. Printed broadsides are now accepted as having had a much greater influence on traditional singers than they were in the days when I was led to believe that the whole process was one of "word of mouth". Some of the best traditional singers kept collections of broadsides. On Fred Hamer's "Leaves of Life" collection you can hear one old singer explaining how he bought printed texts on the market place and made up his own tunes (although you might argue about the latter claim).

In terms of the Folk Revival, books like the ones Jim listed ("Marrow Bones", etc.) have been enormously influential on singers' repertoire. The key to this is accessibility. Those books were easily available once, but are now out of print (though being considered for reprint). The whole point of EFDSS reprinting new editions of The Penguin Book of English Folk Songs and selections from Cecil Sharp is to make that kind of resource generally available once again. The Child Ballads can be obtained in a reasonably priced new edition, but if you want tunes for them the place to look is in Bronson's Traditional Tunes to the Child Ballads, which is very hard to get hold of unless you have access to a specialist library. On the other had, the internet is making all kinds of interesting collections availble online, and let's not forget the Digital Tradition resource on this very site.

2. "would they learn it aurally in the age old tradition...."

If by that you mean "learn it from someone else's singing" then the only opportunity to do that (unless you're a song collector working amidst the last redoubts of traditional singing) is to steal it from someone else at your local folk club. If you want to learn a song from a *traditional* singer, and absorb at least something of their style, then there's the aforementioned Voice of the People collection and any number of CDs containing songs by the greats (Larner, Tanner, Cox, Lizzie Higgins, etc. etc.). I would guess that many professional singers use a mixture of book study and source recordings to gain new material (that's what I do, but then I have the time to do it), but a lot of the songs that get sung in folk clubs and sessions have most likely been learned from recordings of modern folk revival singers. Some of us wish that more people would dig a bit deeper!

3. "how far it is acceptable or necessary to adapt and interpret a traditional song in your own way...."

When I first got interested in traditional song the conventional view seemed to be that real traditional singers sang deadpan, with no personal expression, and that the rest of us should do the same. 'Letting the song tell its own story'. The first time I heard recordings of Sam Larner and Phil Tanner was sufficent to disabuse me of this notion. On the other hand, trying to "make the song your own" by drowning it in a hundred personal quirks risks putting yourself in front of the song, which isn't the idea at all. But whatever you do in terms of phrasing, expression or ornament represents an individual interpretation of a song, and that's before we even consider accompaniments, be they simple and understated or wildly experimental. What is "acceptable" is a subjective and ever-changing judgement, though I don't doubt all of us have our own (probably strong) ideas on the subject.

"whether it is predominantly the words and the melody that convey the folk tradition and how important harmony is...."

In terms of the kind of singers I've already mentioned, harmony was not important at all (though I have wondered whether any of them heard harmony in their heads, in the way I sometimes do even when singing unaccompanied). The Copper Family were and are a glorious exception, while the traditional village carols sung in harmony are owe much to more formal music-making. We live in a different world to Phil Tanner's, and we are exposed to an awful lot more music, whether we like it or not. The unaccompanied voice is a more difficult thing to "sell" to an audience raised on the rhythms and harmonies of the modern popular music that comes crowding in on us everywhere we go. If I stand up in a schoolroom of 8-year-olds and launch into a song, the reaction is a mixture of shock and nervous tittering - they've never experienced an adult doing something like that before, and they don't know how to respond. Anyhow, I'd say that words and melody are considerably more important than harmony, but bear in mind that both have been historically fluid. You could argue that the essence of the song tradition lies not in the words or tunes but in the stories that the old ballads tell (the same story can be told through very different lyrics) or you could just as well argue that the important thing is the style of singing, rather than the songs themselves. Or that the process of transmission and change are the things that count, over and above content. Your research will doubtless find people prepared to argue these and other standpoints to the very death.

"some opinions on the importance of preserving folk traditions would be great."

Well, I think it's important. The English, with our history of imperialism and suppression of other races, are in a rather different category historically from the Irish, the Scots, the Cajuns, the Basques, the Quebecois and all sorts of other peoples who have clung to their traditions (which can mean cuisine, clothing, language, jokes, and all kinds of stuff as well as folksongs) as a means of expressing their identity. Nonetheless I think we Anglos need to keep a sense of identity as well. As a single example: traddy-baiters always accuse us of singing songs about ploughboys with whose lives we have absolutely no affinity, but many of those old rural songs reflect a specific landscape which despite some degradation is still around us. Trying to define an English identity that isn't about empire or bulldogs or St. George or sending the foreigners home is a tricky business, but I believe that our traditions can help us realise in some small way who we actually are. And that's no bad thing in a world spinning ever faster.

Now please leave me alone so I can get back to my tax return.

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 10:36 AM

I would say that your topic is far too broad and far too ambiguous. I would suggest that your prof. is not on the ball viv a vis research and should perhaps send you off to see a research advisor. It may save uou a lot of grief if you knew how to narrow the topic and define your terms.

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: GUEST,Brian Peters
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 10:44 AM

PS Hello to Tim Radford.

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 10:48 AM

No RTim, contemporary song is no part of the Folk Tradition. 1954 definition. That's the point. What is it that is being preserved and passed on (additionally) by printed material.

For research definition is all.

I would have thought it wise to separate folk dance and folc culture (eg corn dolly making) from music and maybe music from song.

Almost certainly it will be necessary to decide if one is speaking of England, or including Wales, Scotland, parts of Ireland or all of Ireland, and/or traveller traditions.

Then the researcher can point to the 1954 definition and the research on which it was based, and start to identify the previous and/or subsequent singers who departed from the transmission model presupposed by that definition.

That might (unlike all the silly arguemtns about horses) show that the 1954 defintion was flawed.

It leaves unaddressed how one will define folk music if that defintion is flawed, and that in turn will upset the stuff from the Oxford Dictionary of music about what modes and intervals are found in folk music.

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: RTim
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 10:54 AM

Hello Brian - and I agree with almost everything you said and you said it all very well. Wish I had the patience to sit and write out exactly what I feel - but would rather just sing!

Tim Radford

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: GUEST,Brian Peters
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 10:57 AM

Tim, when you're filling in a tax return you use any excuse you can not to get on with it!
Cheers,
Brian

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 11:01 AM

me too.

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: GUEST,Cristian
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 11:26 AM

First of all, thank you very much !! I am really grateful for the time and effort everyone has put into helping me, it is greatly appreciated. Secondly, i have taken on board peoples advice of narrowing down the subject for this particular project, although i intend to do more thorough research in my own time. For example, i shouldn't have used the broad term "folk traditions". I am, at this stage, only intereseted in the transmission of musical material.

As for performing myself, no i don't. I really see studying this area as a great benefit compositionally as i am very interested in assimilating some of the musical qualities i.e. modes and intervals, into my own music. Saying that i do think it is very important for my generation to show interest in our musical heritage and unfortunately i don't know that enough of us do.

One more thing, not wanting to fan the flames of the 'traditional' vs. 'revival argument. Does belonging to one of these particular schools of thought change the way you would go about sourcing, learning and adapting a song? Would musicians belong to these two distinctions be ,for example, comfortable sitting next to each other on the same bill at a folk club?

Once again thanks alot!

Cristian

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: Howard Jones
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 11:37 AM

It's highly debateable to what extent modern musicians can be said to be part of a "folk tradition". Most of us have not grown up within a living folk tradition, which is something we've had to seek out, usually after exposure to the music from revival/non-source (whatever you want to call them) singers. In other words, for most of us our first experience of the music was already second-hand, although we may then have been inspired to go to source singers for inspiration or material.

For myself, I get songs wherever I can find them: from live singers (source or otherwise), recordings (ditto), books and now the internet.

Of course, the distinction between "source" and "revival" has become blurred: Fred Jordan was one who increased his repertoire from wherever he could, including that most traditional source of all, Martin Carthy albums.

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: Doktor Doktor
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 11:56 AM

.. Would musicians belong to these two distinctions be ,for example, comfortable sitting next to each other on the same bill at a folk club?
Err .. not unless you're seriously odd. Being lazy I learned most of my stuff from singarounds & sessions. Ergo, most of what I play is wrong (as in theres bound to be a pedant about who'll say so).

Kudos to Brian - that's a scholarly dissertaion, excellent sense and no less than we might expect :)

As you'll gather Cristian, this is an excellent place for free advice - Fear Not, it's not always like this in here ....

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: Marje
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 12:13 PM

Re your question, Cristian, about "traditional vs revival" singers sitting next to each other- well, most of the singers who are described as "traditional" in the strict sense of being a "source" singer are, more or less by definition, old (or dead) and not likely to come to folk clubs; indeed, going to a folk club more more less marks you out as a revival singer at best.

The difference, as I see it, is more between, on the one hand, those who prefer to sing and listen to songs that are either traditional or that draw on the tradition (often called "revival" singers), and on the other, those who prefer more modern songs in a style that's much more similar to pop music (and more American-influenced). The first group often sing unaccompanied or with something like a concertina, whereas the second group rely heavily on guitars. (I know, I know, guys, that's a big generalisation - many trad singers also use a guitar - but I'm trying to keep it simple)

Folk clubs tend to welcome all comers and not be too fussy about the boundaries and categories, largely because many of them are struggling to survive and are anxious to appeal to as wide an audience as possible. So yes, you get people with very different values and expectations sitting together. If you want to know more about clubs in the area, PM me as I live locally - there is, for example, a new folk club about to start up in Totnes in March.

Howard (above) has made some good points about how people learn songs - all I'd add to that is that even the "source" singers were singing second-hand songs - they just happened to be the singers the early collectors got hold of. I don't consider the difference between "source" and "revival" to be that clear-cut.

Oh, and in the folk world, song is not part of "music". It's a very odd usage, but there it is - people will say, "Well, let's have a break from the music- will someone give us a song?" "Music" generally means instrumental music only.(This is in the UK. In the US they say "song" when we'd say "tune" and you may see that usage in this forum).

Marje

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 12:48 PM

Cristian,

For what it is worth,

In the states there are still quite a few people who are "traditional musicians" by any definition, no matter how stringent.

They are living members of still living musical traditions who have learned in traditional ways. We refer to them as the "real thing."

Some but by no means all of them are ancient. They are probably people you've never heard of: Marvin Gaster, Sheila Kay Adams amd Bobby McMillan of North Carolina, John Morris, Dwight Diller, Dave Bing, Lester McCumbers, Frank George, and Phyllis Marks of WV, Paul David Smith and J. P. Fraley of Kentucky, etc.

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: GUEST,Brian Peters
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 01:02 PM

Cristian, I hope now you're getting a better idea of what those of us 'in the know' understand by "traditional" as opposed to "revival". 'Revival' singers sing traditional songs that they have learned consciously because they have developed an interest in that kind of material. 'Traditional' singers are generally understood to be those who learned the songs as a natural part of everyday life, from parents or relatives, from fellow workers or possibly in old-style pub singing sessions. Today's professional singers of traditional songs would all be considered 'revivalists', and whether we are part of an ongoing tradition, or part of a separate, self-perpetuating tradition based around folk clubs and other performance venues, or part of nothing at all, is a matter for debate. All of this is quite apart from the (sometimes overlapping) element that prefers to write songs or cover modern material.

There aren't too many traditional singers still around these days - many of the greats I heard, like Walter Pardon and the aforementioned Fred Jordan, are gone now, although collectors like John and Katie Howson are still finding singers in East Anglia and I guess there is still singing going on in some traveller communities. Incidentally, as Howard said, some of the more recent traditional singers have indeed fed on the folk revival for new material, and even going back to the days of Baring-Gould I've heard of one singer who sang a song for the Rev. B-G, was presented with a copy of "Songs of the West" by way of thank-you, and proceeded to add to his repertoire from the book. A feedback loop!

I sing traditional songs mainly because I love them and find them exciting for a whole raft of reasons too long to explain here. I also hope that by continuing to sing them I may occasionally pique the interest of younger musicians, either to want to sing the old songs themselves, or to do what you are suggesting and incorporate some of the musical or lyrical language into their own new songs. What happens beyond my generation is enirely up to the next generation, and no amount of Mudcat punditry is going to determine that.

As to whether 'traditional' and 'revival' singers could sit side by side in a folk club, well, until it lost its venue a couple of years ago we had a festival - The National Folk Festival - which encouraged precisely that - in mostly informal performance spaces. Other festivals have also booked performers from the tradition, and there are various pub sessions where tradition and revival mix. I'd be pretty confident in saying that most revival performers regard it as a privilege to be sharing songs with traditional singers (two of my most precious compliments came from Bob Copper and Fred Jordan), and certainly people like Fred - although he was a discerning listener and couldn't stand the long intros favoured by modern pros - often found plenty to enjoy in the revivalists' performances.

What goes on in folk clubs is another thing again. As Marje says, they are often very eclectic in the range of music they present. Although my own repertoire is very much based in the tradition (give or take the odd bit of blues or music hall or pop or made-up stuff), the folk club I enjoyed most was that run by Harry Boardman in Manchester where, in addition to top-notch unaccompanied singing, you would regularly hear modern political songs, Lancashire dialect material, blues, eccentric poetry, punk rock covers and God knows what else.

Now back to that tax return......

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: GUEST,Brian Peters
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 01:39 PM

.... I forgot to mention Vic and Viv Legg, fine singers in Cornwall who are certainly traditional singers as far as I'm concerned. And, Russ, one of my fondest memories of touring the US was hearing J. P. Fraley play (to a sadly small crowd) at Old Songs festival several years ago, and of sharing a stage with Dwight Diller the same weekend. As you say: "the real thing".

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: 14fret
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 06:23 PM

Get in touch with John Leonard. He knows all about it.

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: SylviaN
Date: 27 Jan 07 - 05:29 AM

14fret - now that was hilarious! A joke at last. Having Brian keep mentioning his tax returns was getting depressing.

Cristian, someone you should speak to is Vic Gammon (see contact details below). Not only can he advise you on the structure of your paper, etc, he's a performer as well.

Dr Vic Gammon
Senior Lecturer in Folk & Trad Music
Email: [e-mail]
Telephone: [phone]
Address: School of Arts and Cultures
Armstrong Building
Newcastle upon Tyne
NE1 7RU

Cheers
Sylvia

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: bubblyrat
Date: 27 Jan 07 - 07:24 AM

" The English,with our history of Imperialism and suppression of other races "
            Ditto the following countries : Germany--France--Italy--Spain--Morrocco--China--Japan--Turkey--Mongolia--Greece--Russia---Portugal--Belgium--The USA !!!
             Still feeling guilty ??

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: Fidjit
Date: 27 Jan 07 - 07:45 AM

Jim Carrol wrote,
Those of us who have been involved for centuries started off with collections like A L Lloyd's and Vaughan Williams' 'The Penguin Book of English Folk Song', and MacColl's 'Singing Island' and Frank Purslow's selections from the Hammond and Gardiner collection 'Marrowbones', 'Foggy Dew'. 'Wanton Seed' and 'Constant Lovers'

I would add Alfred Williams, "Folk Songs of the Upper Thames" to that list.
And as others have mentioned, lots of Topic and Leader records.

We all seem to have been there. Do we really need to go through all this again?

Think I'll wait for Dereck's book. to come out.

Chas

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: GUEST,doc.tom
Date: 27 Jan 07 - 07:54 AM

Hail Rirchard - saver of BBs ankles.

The International Folk Music Council definition was flawed from the outset: it is debatable that there has been 'a community uninfluenced by popular and art music' in England for several Centuries. However, the critical part of the definition (the 3 'factors' in para 1, together with the 're-fashioning and re-creating'in para 3) focus the definition on the performer, rather than the content, and define him/her as creator rather than copyist. And for that we have to thank Douglas Kennedy.

How come Brian Peters nearly always makes such sense? However, Brian's definition of traditional singer makes Barbara & me traditional singers - which lots of people wouldn't like to contemplate - we'll leave that to other's judgement!

On another point, I can't think of a single 'traditional singer' (as defined by general concensus - who's consensus? err...) who hasn't added to their repertoire from contemporary sources (be it broadsides or some singer/songwriter who's LP they have). Given that, then CONTEXT OF PERFORMANCE becomes, again, a critical factor in defining folk music.

Once again - in response to Cristian's initial posting - make sure you've got your definition watertight for the purposes of your thesis. Everybody elses definition than become irrelevant to the work you are doing.

(Dr.)Tom Brown

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Jan 07 - 11:57 AM

as far as im concerned, far too much emphasis is put on traditional singers or revival singers, being a good singer is the only thing that is important.and in 100 years from now, will still be the oNly thing that is important,singing is about conveying feeling,not about what badge your wearing.http://www.dickmiles.com

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: RTim
Date: 27 Jan 07 - 12:58 PM

My goodness me - do I really find myself agreeing with Dick Miles!

Tim Radford

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: GUEST,Brian Peters
Date: 27 Jan 07 - 01:15 PM

>> Still feeling guilty ?? <<

Where did I say I felt guilty? Merely explaining that the English don't have much experience of being an oppressed minority, hence perhaps less motive for cherishing their traditions than others.

To Tom:
>> Given that, then CONTEXT OF PERFORMANCE becomes, again, a critical factor in defining folk music. <<

Yes, I should have mentioned that one too.

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Jan 07 - 03:09 PM

Definitions of whether someone is traditional or revival may not be important when singing or listening to a song, but it is when discussing singing and it certainly is when writing about it.
I suggest that we would no more abandon our definitions of songs and singing than we would go into a grocers and ask for a tin of soup.
I believe that all of us have very clear definitions of what we mean by the terms we use (though we may not always agree on other's definitions), but it's hard not to notice that some of us have a tendency to claim we don't define things when we find ourselves getting the worst of a discussion.
The same argument applies to those who claim to be far too busy playing or singing to bother with definintions. It would be a very unimaginative musician whose thoughts never stray further than where to put their fingers or how hard to blow.
Jim Carroll
PS Cap'n - still trying to work out what I wrote that you disagreed with in my earlier posting on this thread - ah well!

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 27 Jan 07 - 05:59 PM

Years ago I heard a singer (I think it was Wizz Jones - but I may be wrong), in a Folk Club, sing a song called 'Put A Little Label On It'. The point of the song seemed to be that labelling (or, possibly, defining) things is BAD and that naming things tends to diminish them (in some undefined way - sorry, just realised what I've written!).I didn't agree with that song then - and I don't agree with it now!
My feeling is that if a thing is not named there is a risk that it will disappear before we have a chance of appreciating it. This probably happens every day to living organisms, and it is only when we have labelled them that we have any chance of saving them. If the early collectors hadn't defined traditional/folk music we might have lost it before we had a chance to appreciate and enjoy it.
Personally, I think that this 'horror' of defining/naming/categorising things is just anti-intellectualism (or, perhaps, intellectual laziness) masquerading as philosophical profundity.

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: Mary Humphreys
Date: 27 Jan 07 - 08:02 PM

Brian,you have very little time indeed to get that tax return in. Mudcat posting is displacement activity!
I remember well Harry Boardman's club - those that were part of it will never forget what a great platform it was for trying out newly-unearthed songs and talking about what we were doing about finding songs and how & why we wanted to sing them.
As for the distinctions between traditional and revival singers: I believe there may still be some traditional singers left in the forgotten corners of the UK. But, as the venues for singing traditional material disappear with piped music, big screen TV and 'live bands' taking over from informal pub sessions I reckon there will be fewer and fewer places for such singers to be heard. So there will be precious few - if any - singers learning songs in the traditional way.
If we want to keep 'traditional' song & music alive we will have to rely much more on artificial methods of transference of the tradition. So instead of aural transmission - listening to someone sing right in front of us, as in a pub or in our homes - we will use electronic transmission through recordings or paper transmission through notation and text.

There is much to be said for listening very carefully to recordings of traditional singers ( such as the wonderful selection on Voice of the People) to understand how songs were sung by the transmitters of this material. We should also understand that many of these singers were recorded in later life and the recordings may not be an accurate representation of their vocal skills in the prime of their lives.

There is also a great deal to be said for digging into the collected texts and notated material ( of which there is a huge wealth, much lying in archives waiting to be unearthed) so we can find out what was being sung by traditional singers of a hundred years ago. The variety of songs which I have discovered in my small burrowings into the archives is staggering. This is where I get most of my 'new' material now.

I firmly believe that it would be such a waste of the efforts of those dedicated collectors of last century who carefully preserved on paper what they heard being sung if their collected songs & tunes are not put back into circulation. I do not say put back into the tradition because I am convinced that the old aural/oral method of transmission is irreparably broken.

Mary

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: GUEST,Patrick Costello
Date: 27 Jan 07 - 10:14 PM

It sounds like you were looking for input from the UK, but I figured I'd go ahead and offer my take on this as an American folk musician.

When it comes to sourcing I'll literally use whatever I come across. Books, recordings, mainstream media and face to face encounters with other musicians. See, in order to be "traditional" there has to be some sort of context in terms of place and time because the role of tradition is to give us a sense of place, a sense of personal history and a sense of connection to our community.

Being a folk musician isn't a matter of playing a particular genre of music or anything like that. It's about taking this thing we call music and using it as a language to express ourselves. That self expression ends up incorporating a pretty diverse amount of information. Who we are as individuals comes across. How and where we learned out craft comes across. How we feel at the moment the music is being played comes across. In other words, our entire story - from our community to our individual personality ends up becoming part of the ingredient of whatever we play. If it's a Child Ballad or some top 40 pop song the overall folk process is still taking place.

I learned to play wandering the streets of Philadelphia bugging every musician I met for help figuring out the banjo and the guitar. That's my story - and as a result that is also my tradition. Twenty-some-odd years later I'm living in rural Maryland and the personal experiences I have had living here have become part of my tradition.

As a musician I can play just about anything you throw at me. Genre is a term that only means something to people who don't grasp the mechanics of music. A Child Ballad or Fergie carrying on about being "T to the A to the S T Y" are little more than different applications of the same basic concepts.

As a folk musician how I use those basic concepts is shaped by my personal experiences.

-Patrick
http://howandtao.com

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: Marje
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 05:00 AM

I agree with Shimrod above - when people criticise "labelling", they're conveniently forgetting that every word is a label (well, nouns are anyway). If you're not going to label things, you can't really say anything useful about them. And I also agree that it's often just intellectual laziness that gives rise to that attitude.

Cristian, I think Howard's post there gives you a flavour of the difference between UK and US concepts - as you're studying in the UK, I imagine you'll prefer to stick with UK views, but it's useful to be aware of the differences between our cultures, and of course there are lots of crossover influences in both directions.

As for the oral/aural tradition being irreparably broken, Mary - don't despair, I think it carries on. I have scores of songs in my head that I only ever learned by hearing them, and I'm sure you do too. I may have written the words down at some point to help store them, and even looked up some extra verses or missing lines, but I recall many tunes (both for singing and for playing) that I've never seen written down and never heard recorded. Session tunes get passed around aurally in vast numbers - occasionally you get a request for "the dots", but much of the learning of tunes is aural. I often look up a written score and use it to refresh my memory, but I learn as much by hearing other players and singers as from printed or recorded sources.

The context of the singing and playing is, of course, different from in the past - it's more structured, and less connected with ordinary social activities in the wider community. And the extra means we have at our disposal for searching, storing and retrieving songs and tunes give us access to a vastly wider repertoire than our ancestors had - I think we're very lucky in some ways. I also agree that it's important to treasure the old recordings and written sources, as a way of enriching our understanding and interpretation of the music of our tradition.

Marje

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: Alec
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 06:09 AM

For myself I agree with something Johnny Handle once said to the effect that the oral tradition is alive & well & living on the football terraces & the school playgrounds.
Though that view is probably a dissertation subject in itself.

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 07:40 AM

That'll be because most of them cannot or will not read?

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: Alec
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 07:41 AM

Quite possibly! :-)

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 09:03 AM

we have been unable to define tradtional music satisfactorily,on other threads.
The important point is not who is singing the song[traditional singer or revival]but how the song is being sung,This is what defines a good singer,interpretation, intonation and communication,not what the persons name is.
when there are no traditional singers for people to collect [and that time is not very far away in my opinion]then the same criteria willbe used ,as is used in other forms of music[as Ioutlined above] and we can get away from this nonsensical traditional /revival singer jargon,which is meaningless claptrap, as we cant even define what traditional is.http://www.dickmiles.com

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: greg stephens
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 12:15 PM

Re Alecc's remarks about Johnny handle saying the oral tradition was alive and well on the football terrces. I can absolutely agree with this. There is not a shadow of a doubt that, by any definition, we have here living traditional material. i was on a terrace yesterday, watching Stafford v Morecambe. The Morecambe singers, and drummers, were great, and were singing, and playing, in a style appropriate to their environment, and in a style in no way derived from any currently plugged media stuff. The drumming is particularly interesting, as it has some connection with both pop/rock rhythms, and the current fashion for streetband/sama type stuff. But it is definitely not a version of either genre, it is a creation of its own world, and absolutely traditional folk music. And anyone can go out and collect it, any Saturday afternoon.
    Morecambe won, 3-1, by the way.

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 12:42 PM

excellent Greg,
Funny how no one sings at AT G.A. A. matches,only soccer or rugby.
G A A GAELIC ATHLETIC ASSOCIATION .

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: GUEST,Brian Peters
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 03:53 PM

Dick, they might be meaningless claptrap to you, but I don't see how Cristian or anyone else is going to have any hope of undertaking an academic study of the transmission of songs without understanding the concepts "tradition" and "revival". Are there such imperceptible differences in kind between Walter Pardon and Martin Carthy or Caroline Hughes and Kate Rusby that we don't require terms to define them?

There might well be no "traditional singers" (see, you find the term useful, too!) in 100 years' time, but I don't think it's too great a leap of the imagination to envisage Vic Gammon's successor on the 2107 Traditional Music Course at Newcastle, asking his/her students to prepare an essay entitled "The custodianship of English traditional song passed from the rural working class to the educated urban middle class during the period 1950 - 2010: discuss".

Yes, Alec and Greg, football chants are one of the last great citadels of the oral tradition. At Stockport County yesterday (County 2, Wycombe Wanderers 0, going up, going up, going up) there was a pleasingly wide repertoire, from 1970s favourites - suitably altered for 2007 - to songs I'd never heard before. Songs parodied included "Wild Rover", "Knees Up Mother Brown", "Oh Susanna" and "La Donna E Mobile" amongst others.

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: greg stephens
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 04:07 PM

Brian Peters: interested that Oh Susanna is still in use. the old minstrel bajo type repertoire is a long time a-dying, however non-PC it has become. "Marching through Georgia" was also in evidence among the Morecambe supporters as well. As was "Annie's Song", which I particularly enjoyed ("You fill up my senses like a night out in Morecambe". The Shadows' Apache got a good mauling too.