Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Cats
Date: 19 Jan 07 - 02:40 PM

When I said that there were lanes and roads called Darkie Lane or Darkie Ope it was meant as an example that the word Darkie in the West country has been used for centuries, whether or not you agree with the modern connotations. I was not meaning it to be taken in any other way. I think that the fact that most of the Merrymakers now have black faces with a white cross, i.e. our national flag [For Catters in other countries, Cornwall has its own recognised flag which is black with a white cross] shows they have gone out of their way not to offend but still keeping the guising trdaition and our own, internationally recognised, identity. Much more relevant to them than wearing rainbow colours.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: bubblyrat
Date: 19 Jan 07 - 03:21 PM

Just call it "DA QUAY DAY" -----It"s snappy, contemporary, & can"t possibly cause offence.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 19 Jan 07 - 03:22 PM

Yes, excellent point Cats. Still a little unsure. But, It's that old Ku KuxKlan thing with crosses - it is not always what is intended but how it makes people feel

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 19 Jan 07 - 03:45 PM

Les, a lot of Cats's points simply reiterate folklore and have no historical evidence.

I'm quoting from the article, written by Derek Schofield (EDS summer 2005):

"Forty years ago, the only English traditional, or revival, dance group who blacked up were the Britania Coco-nut Dancers from Bacup."

"There are references to people blacking up as a form of disguise in popular custom, although in Heaney and Forrest's book 'Annals of Early Morris', there is only one reference to black-faced morris dancers in the period they studied (up to 1750), and that is from the mid-sixteenth century."

The article goes on to discuss how black-faced minstrelsy took hold in America from the early 19th century, and eventually made its way to Britain and enjoyed huge popularity here by the turn of the 20th century: "no village concert was complete without a few minstrel songs."

The piece goes on to discuss the incorporation of blacking up into "traditional" events: "There would seem to be little doubt that the black faces of the traditional morris dance groups of the Welsh Border counties were at least influenced by minstrelsy. The occasional use of banjoes, bones and tambourines in these morris dances cannot be mere coincidence."

I apologise for the brief and piecemeal nature of these quotes, and for the lack of context (especially to Derek) - sadly the whole article is not available on-line. But I can tell you that it makes a pretty convincing case for the influence of minstrelsy on blacking up.

So then the question is, if blacking up and minstrelsy were once intrinsically linked, does it matter today?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Goose Gander
Date: 19 Jan 07 - 04:01 PM

"it is not always what is intended but how it makes people feel"

Les, I appreciate your earlier comment, but this sort of hypersensitivity is never-ending. I suppose ANY cross could possibly remind someone, somewhere of the KKK. And I suppose the crescent could possibly remind someone, somewhere of Muslim involvement in the slave trade. How far do you want to go with this?

There is no right not to be offended.

Plenty of things offend me - so what?

The residents of Padstow shouldn't have to explain themselves to busybodies who neither understand nor attempt to understand this expression of their local culture.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: bubblyrat
Date: 19 Jan 07 - 04:41 PM

I agree with you,Mike. Plenty of things offend me ,too.I find many of the attitudes inherent in Islam to be disturbing,frightening,totally at variance with my own cultural identity,history, and traditions, and ,in some cases,actually offensive.However, since there is A) nothing I can do about it ,and B) I have no wish foment racial conflict , I tend to let them "get on with their lives ". I do this in the fervent hope that they will accord me the same degree of tolerance and respect.By this ,I mean that, should I wish, (which I don"t !!) to black-up my face and cavort about with Morris or any other dancers,then I would do so, and I would RESPECTFULLY point out the historical precedents for my actions .If ,despite this, I was ENTREATED to stop, then I probably would. If ,however ,I was ORDERED to stop, THEN I BLOODY WELL WOULD NOT !!!!!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Cats
Date: 19 Jan 07 - 05:43 PM

Ruth - you jeep saying I have no eveidence and am just reiterating folklore. I have given you references to go to. I am talking about guising, not black faced morris. They are totally different things. But, I would still suggest you go to the excellent references I have suggested - twice.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Jim Lad
Date: 19 Jan 07 - 05:53 PM

I am reminded of a brief moment in time when I was a young man in Australia. I found myself in Jindabyne, in the Snowy Mountains and stopped into a pub & ordered myself a Schooner of New. As I drew my first mouthful I heard some loud laughter coming from the far corner. As I turned to look at them, the barman said "Oh, they're building houses over there". He was referring to their conversation of course. There was no actual work being done. Just a bunch of guys who worked together and who, after a couple of drinks, could build as good a home as any. Well, at least in conversation.
I was immediately reminded of the many references to the 23rd of June in so many of the weaving songs. No weaving ever really took place in these songs. The 23rd of June was the weavers' holiday.(coincides with Summer Solstice or something) The weaving mills were horrible, noisy, dangerous, depressing places which in no way could ever lend itself to a healthy sing-song.
I realized then that we haven't really changed so much from one generation to another. In my mind, the hustle & bustle around me is entirely irrelevant. I take up very little space and am absolutely content with the simplest of pleasures. I often wonder how many of us feel the same way and are so easily distracted from life's complications by just the singing of a sweet song or the sharing of a simple story at the end of the day.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 19 Jan 07 - 06:12 PM

"One of the most well documented cases of blacking up in Cornwall actually comes from the Britannia Coconut Dancers of Bacup. Their dances were, reputably, brought up from Cornwall by the Cornish miners who went all over the world in the 17 and early 18th centuries."

where is the evidence for this, Cat? I understand that even the Bacup dancers don't know where their dance comes from, or why it looks like it does.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Jim Lad
Date: 19 Jan 07 - 06:12 PM

A Folk story. What a fitting way to tie the end of a very loose thread which would have been pulled from many a forum or loom.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: GUEST,pat
Date: 19 Jan 07 - 07:30 PM

The so called afro wigs that are shown in photos, which tend to be from the 1970's, tended to be bright pink or blue, and have not been worn for years anyway...


Really cats?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Bonecruncher
Date: 19 Jan 07 - 10:56 PM

Les in Chorlton suggests that instead of "blacking up" that people should "rainbow up".
If Les wishes to advertise thae fact that he is "a friend of Dorothy" i.e. a homosexual, that is entirely his choice.
Personally, I find his suggestion totally objectionable!
Colyn.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 04:31 AM

Please explain, I am most confused.

I have dressed as a women on a number of occaisons, in a wig, in a pub popular with gay friends in Stockport. I was in a Mummers Play. Was it offensive to women? I don't think so. Is pantomime? Probably not. I am open to discussion and advice. I am with the living tradition and am happy for the Mummers Play to move as it clearly has done over hudreds of years.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 05:27 AM

Of course, Og Magog molly already paint their faces all sorts of colours, and wear similarly outlandish clothes. I think it takes Les's concept rather to the extreme, and responses to them are quite mixed as they are seen to deviate pretty substantially from ANY tradition (they remind me of a Monty Python sketch), but lots of people seem to enjoy their fresh, iconoclastic approach and they are certainly evidence that the whole blacking up issue is something that is being taken on board, at least by the younger generation.

Les, as a woman I am not offended by pantomime dames. I don't understand why they all seem to come from Wigan, though - maybe if I lived in Wigan I'd be offended.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 05:43 AM

Wigan is fine place full of indep,endently minded people whom I would avoid crossing, so to speak.

I remember a Mummer's Play at Whitby Festval with "Sir" Goefrey Boycot as the Hero. It seems that many people who dig around in Mumming get bored after a while and go off on one of their own. I have to say they can never match the drama of the Antrobus Soulcakers - seriously old and wiered. Unless someone knows something else?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 05:51 AM

I'm certainly not slating the good people of Wigan - it's just that all the panto dames I've seen (and I've seen quite a few this year, for my sins) seem to have the same accent. Even Ian McKellan - put him in a frock, he's from Wigan.

[/OT] so, do the dames black up in Cornwall?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Cats
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 06:10 AM

Good morning. Ruth, I had the info about the origins of Bacup from them. I have been trying to work out what connection you have made between Morris dancers blacking up and Mummers day. I still can't see any and there is photographic and written evidence in the archives in Padstow Museum, that the Merrymakers have always blacked their faces and this dates back hundreds of years. Perhaps you did not realise that this is a totally different tradition and has nothing to do with morris or mumming as we know it today. Has the change of name to Mummers day confused people who have never been and now link it with Mumming and Morris? Apologies to Guest pat - I didn't see that guy and I don't know when the photo was taken. If that has caused offence I am sorry, but take it from me, the curly wigs have usually been multi coloured. If you had been, you would know. As for pantomime dames.. you are now into a whole new realm. When I worked in Professional theatre none of the pantomimes I worked on have black faced dames, just exaggerated make up. I suppose it is up to the artistic director. Again, I can't see what that has to do with Mummers day ... thread drift, perhaps?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Surreysinger
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 07:37 AM

Guest Pat - an interesting photo, but it looks to me as if it's one that has been manufactured/doctored - the guy with the black Afro wig seems to have been imposed on the photo - he partially obscures the face of the chap in front of him..... so who's to say when the two (or more) parts of the photo were actually taken.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 07:55 AM

"the Antrobus Soulcakers - seriously old and wiered" - Great word! Now would that mean simultaneously weird and wired (see: neologisms)?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 08:16 AM

"I still can't see any and there is photographic and written evidence in the archives in Padstow Museum, that the Merrymakers have always blacked their faces and this dates back hundreds of years."

How old is photography?

I suppose we getting no further really.

The use of blacking up seems to lie somewhere between a long time ago and Minstrelsy. The point really is, this 2007 and lots of people feel uneasy or are offended and explanations of historical significance here or in books about Padstow wont make any difference.

"Those who don't know any better, should.
Those who do know better and still continue this sort of behaviour are guilty of bigotry."
As Jim said.

What on Earth do these people think they are protecting and at what price?

We used to enslave people, put children up chimnees and burn women as witches and now we don't. although I see they are still burning catholic effegies in Lewes.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 08:51 AM

"I had the info about the origins of Bacup from them."

But what does that mean? Apocryphal stories are passed down through generations, yes, but is there any documented evidence to support the claim?

There are wonderful stories to explain the existence of many of our folk customs. Many have been grafted on by way of explanation - even to the participants themselves. That doesn't make them true.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Goose Gander
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 11:04 AM

"We used to enslave people, put children up chimnees and burn women as witches and now we don't."

Pouring it on a bit thick, Les. But if you're really concerned about slavery, child labor, and the burning alive of women, these things are going on today - not in Padstow, though.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Joybell
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 05:17 PM

Can't find the comment here on this thread - but I might have missed it --

Time for a reminder that "Darkie Days" is not a reference to people but to "Dark Days".

Cheers, Joy

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 05:28 PM

And in the UK darkie is a well known racist name for black people. Most commonly heard by saturday night comics in the 1960's. Combine that with blacking the faces and wearing afro wigs puts it into context.

They have changed the name and dropped the afro wigs. They are holding onto the bastion of the blacking up. They wouldn't do it in any inner city area of the UK. They feel safe doing it somewhere where the black population is at a guess 1%.

If they are that far behind enlightenment they are to be pitied really.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 05:47 PM

I don't believe the photograph of Padstow highlighted by Guest Pat has been doctored. It was printed in the Guardian on 3 January 2007, and that newspaper is quite scrupulous at not doctoring images. I have seen this photo printed before.
So, a few observations ....
Cats: there can be no photographic evidence for the merrymakers blacking up for hundreds of years. There is no evidence that the Bacup nutters' dance came from Cornwall ... apocraphal stories ... most customs seem to have them ...

Having looked into blacking up for the EDS feature that Ruth Archer has kindly quoted from, there is undoubtedly an influence on English folk culture from minstrelsy. Bacup may be one, Padstow mummers may be another, the 20th century traditional Border morris which has been copied by revival sides might be another.
The question is ...has the blacking up transcended its origin and now have a life of its own?
Does this practice offend sectors of our society? (And I don't mean just the black members of our society ... white people might also be offended).
And if so, are we prepared to do anything about it?

For whatever reason, the people of Padstow are doing something about it - and well done to them. I have spoken to many people who either live in Padstow or visit the town and they say that there is no intention to cause offence, which I have no reason to disagree with. But who decides what gives offence and to whom?
Derek Schofield

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Goose Gander
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 06:37 PM

"But who decides what gives offence and to whom?"

Precisely. Anyone likely to be offended can refrain from attending, viewing footage, or reading accounts of the event.

There must be some more worthy cause than hassling these people.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 07:03 PM

I don't think that's Derek's point, Mike. I think he's saying that although the intention to offend may not be present, offence may still be incurred.

So it's a question of what we do about actions that, for perfectly good reasons, may cause offence, whether that offence is intentional or not. It's an issue that transcends Padstow, and actually goes right to the heart of English traditional culture, inclusiveness and tolerance.

I'm sorry if such PC concepts cause offence. None was intended.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Bonecruncher
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 07:30 PM

I asm most surprised that people who describe themselves as "folkies" should be so adamant in trying to change history, when they should be defending it against the less knowledgeable.
To try and black out, or whitewash, (Two words which are bound to give offence to someone or other!) part of Britain's history is the same as those who state that the Holocaust never happened!

You sit around and sing about a the lives of farmers, fishermen, miners, ag. labs. etc. and yet you know nothing about the ways in which they had to work. Most of you could not even cook yourselves a meal in the way in which your great-grandmother could, let alone show the resourcefulness and the abilities of your recent ancestors!
Be proud of what our ancestors did for us, their traditions and their way of life. There are too many bleeding-heart liberals (with a small "L") armed with a blue pencil to eradicate and censor that of which "they" do not approve.
I would have thought folkies were above that mentality!

When you can convince the rest of the world that you have spent your time campaigning against the lack of education of women in certain faiths, the circumcision of women, so-called "Honour killings" then others might believe that you have a real, rather than a fashionable, interest.

At the same time you would be expected to buy your food locally, from the nearest farmer rather than from the supermarket. Your meat should come from the butcher, not in a supermarket plastic wrapper. Remember that many supermarket animals are the product of deforestation of South American rainforests, to the detriment of the climate affecting each and every one of us!

I hope that you do not wear fashionable clothes, since most of them are made by child labour or by people having to work for pennies per day. Slave labour, in other words!
Do you buy your furniture from some do-it-yourself shed or flat-pack shop? Is their timber Forestry Stewardship Council registered, from sustainable resources? Why not buy it from your local cabinet-maker, as the antique of tomorrow?

Perhaps, when you can honestly answer that you do all of the above, and more, then you can preach to the rest of us as to what we should do and how we should do it.

Until then, please be quiet!

Colyn.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Goose Gander
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 07:30 PM

I'm not offended, and even if I was you are not obligated to apologize.

"So it's a question of what we do about actions that, for perfectly good reasons, may cause offence, whether that offence is intentional or not."

Who exactly are 'we'? The only relevant 'we' in this story are the residents of Padstow. If they choose to alter or even abandon this event, that's their business. If they choose to continue as they have done in the past, that's their business, too.

"It's an issue that transcends Padstow, and actually goes right to the heart of English traditional culture."

Are you on a similar mission to find and root out 'offensive' elements in other, non-English cultures? I'm guessing not - after all, that would be 'insensitive' and 'non-inclusive'.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Goose Gander
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 07:43 PM

Colyn, you hit the nail right on the head, much better than I could. So I'm bowing out of this discussion. I will be interested to see if anyone cares to respond thoughtfully to your post.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Bonecruncher
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 07:56 PM

Thank you, Michael Morris.
However, I am expecting not "thoughtful" but "vitriol".
Colyn.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 08:04 PM

Why are you so defensive, Mike? No one is claiming that other cultures are perfect, but this particular discussion is about an aspect of English traditional culture. It's not about trying to undermine or destroy tradition. If traditions are living things, then they grow and evolve and change with the times. And if there is an aspect of a tradition that has the potential for causing offence, what is so wrong with interrogating it? What are you afraid of, exactly?

I dsagree with you that the only 'we' in this discussion are the people of Padstow. Padstow is one blacking-up tradition. There are many. In this day and age, it is absolutely right that we should be debating whether this is a practice that is appropriate in 21st century Britain. I'm not saying that it necessarily ought to be abolished, funnily enough. I'm saying that it's a debate that ought to be allowed to happen, with the fullness of evidence and research to be called upon, rather than folklore, conjecture and apocrypha.

I'll tell you why I think it's important in the context of English traditional cultures: because this is such an interesting time in terms of defining the English identity. I work with schools comprised of children of different backgrounds and faiths, but we bring English traditional dance and song into those schools. I think it's very important that both children from indigenous backgrounds AND those from diverse cultures get to experience the traditions of this country, so that they understand that these traditions belong to them, and comprise part of their heritage, whether they were born here or not.

Now, would you be comfortable introducing a Black-British or British-Asian child to the many blacking-up traditions? What about those rooted in minstrelsy? The nigger songs? Come to think of it, is this something you'd like White British children to celebrate as part of their heritage?

No one is trying to "whitewash" anything. Yes, these things were once a very popular part of popular culture. But that doesn't mean they should be forever perpetuated. "Traditional" does not equal sacrosanct.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 21 Jan 07 - 04:45 AM

You wont be surprised that I am with Ruth.

I am interested in Bonecruncher Colyn's list of what we must do before we can comment on blacking up. I am with him/her on practically all of that list, I do some and campaigne, a bit on others. Most Folkies seem to lie over that side too.

As for denial, I am not clear about what I appear to be denighing. The history of most these practises is rather short on evidence.

"Having looked into blacking up for the EDS feature that Ruth Archer has kindly quoted from, there is undoubtedly an influence on English folk culture from minstrelsy. Bacup may be one, Padstow mummers may be another, the 20th century traditional Border morris which has been copied by revival sides might be another."

This quote from Derek Schofield, is this Derek the Editor of the English Folk Dance and Song Society?

I think Ruth has made an important point,

"would you be comfortable introducing a Black-British or British-Asian child to the many blacking-up traditions? What about those rooted in minstrelsy? The nigger songs? Come to think of it, is this something you'd like White British children to celebrate as part of their heritage?"

Many of us in folk have a, perhaps unwelcome, missionary zeal about sharing our living heritage. Some of us, moved by the Blues sort English Roots music because we felt singing Delta Blues was not for us, whilst old English songs was. We sing, we dance we perform ritual plays in public because ........... well fill in your own dots.

When I danced Northwest Morris in the streets of the North West I felt their was some link with working people who came to the region in the Industrial Revolution, as migrant workers, lived a hard life and found ways of singing and dancing to celebrate. I found that the multi ethnic collections of teenagers that I taught, were interested when they saw me in the streets. I chatted to them and they never used it against me on Monday morning. Chatting to them whilst blacked up would have been at least difficult.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 21 Jan 07 - 05:33 AM

Derek edits English Dance and Song, the magazine of the English Folk Dance and Song Society. It was his article I quoted from earlier, so it's nice to have his contribution here.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Cats
Date: 21 Jan 07 - 07:54 AM

I am sorry that a sentrence which I can see now is grammatically incorrect has caused so much confusion. If you look carefully the sentence says there is photographic and written evidence. I should have put in a comma to make it photographic, and written, I suppose. I would have thought, though, that the meaning of it was obvious. I am quite aware that photographs have not been around for centuries, although, if you want to be pernickity, they have as we are now in the 21st and photographs were around in the 19th, but I'm not that picky. There is written evidence and it can be found in Padstow museum and local collections.   There are very early photographs. Guising in Padstow is not something that came in with minstrelsy. Also, Derek, that photograph may well have been in a 2007 newspaper but it was, most definitley, not taken in recent years. It is one of those that gets pulled from files year on year and is so annoying as it just fuels the media and gives no credit for the changes.
Anyway, as I said in the beginning, and I only put in the information I have as I live in Cornwall and must be one of the very few people contributing to this thread and discussion that has been there and seen it and know the people who do it, both the Director of Public Prosecutions and the Commission For Racial Equality have examined the tradition of guising, whatever you want to call it, in Padstow and found it is not racist, nor is there any racist intent. It is an English Tradition and has no racist overtones whatsoever. Their words, not mine. I now bow out. If you really want to know what it is all about, rather than pontificate from afar... come and see it for yourselves, then make your decision. You will be made welcome.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 21 Jan 07 - 08:11 AM

Cat, before you go can you just quantify the following statement?

"There are very early photographs. Guising in Padstow is not something that came in with minstrelsy. "

What is very early in this context? I'm genuinely interested, because it's relevant to the discussion. If you have more specific information, I'd be grateful.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: GUEST,floss
Date: 21 Jan 07 - 11:53 AM

The white cross in the Cornish flag of St.Piran is to symbolise the light of christ shining into the four corners Cornwall, not related to the KKK...although that will probably offend someone, by the look of things ! And I think you will find that the Cornish are far from unenlightened.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Cats
Date: 21 Jan 07 - 12:44 PM

As I said previously, and you can check this on the internet, we have the words to Cornish Mummers plays, with the names of the people who actually played the characters, from the 1780's and from this we know they were blacking faces then.   I know that there were mummers in disguise who came to my house at Christmas 1600 as I have found references to this in the Kew documents. My house was the Dower House for the Manor of Rillaton, built 1599, [try googling Rillaton Gold Cup] and the Manor goes back before 1068, was the most important Hundred in Cornwall, and is in the Doomsday Book. This year we reencated one of the plays for the village in my house at the Wassail. There are guise dance tunes and the steps which have been researched and published by Merv Davwy and Mike O'Connor from long before 1780. If you look at the Wikipedia references which I have previously suggested you will find the information there. There is also a huge amount which is just recently coming to light in the Truro Public Records Office which pre dates anything in general publication so far.[This is Really Exciting] The custodians are so excited about what is now being found that they are sending the references straight to Mike and he is researching them, which is a very slow and painstaking job.   Only a very small part of what he has found so far has been published but try Ilo Kernow for a start.. He is building an increasingly in depth history of Cornish Music and Dance. There are references, for example, to the parliamentarian troops in 1649, being sent to Padstow to quell the festivities on May day but never getting there and disappearing totally. These are in the Basing House documents. I cannot say exactly, the very first date given to Padstow but there is documented evidence that the same thing happened all over the county and Padstow is the only one that still remains in its 'original', albeit somewhat changed, form as opposed to Madron, St Ives, Kingsand, Cawsand, Looe, etc which have changed form to everyone dressing in fancy dress. There is alot in Padstow Museum and held by the Old Cornwall Societies and Helston Folk Museum. Unless you lived down here you might not be aware of our heritage and what is coming to light. Perhaps you need to visit and check it out as much of it is still in the various records.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Cats
Date: 21 Jan 07 - 12:47 PM

PS forgot to say to Floss, yes that's one interpretation of our National Flag, the St Piran's Cross. Another popular one is that it is the tin shining through the rocks. But it is ours and we do fly it proudly. If you see one at a festival come and investigate as it might just be us and we come supplied with copious amounts of Rum and Shrub

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 21 Jan 07 - 02:15 PM

I was just consulting Sreve Roud's new book, The English Year, about a completely different calendar custom, and happened upon the reference to Padstow.

He draws a very defnite link between mistrelsy and Padstow Darkie Day. He cites photographs circa 1900 of revellers in full minstrel guise, and of course discusses the songs that derived directly from minstrelsy, but i believe these have now been phased out...?

I'm not saying that this contravenes what Cat has said, but perhaps the fact that Darkie Day DID, for a significant period of its history, become entwined with the minstrelsy customs in Britain, needs to be acknowledged when discussing this (and other similar) traditions.

And it makes me ask once again: would you be happy to show Black-British or Asian-British children these pictures to familiarise them with the traditional heritage of this country, and happily defend the fact that people STILL black up as part of this tradition, but, well, it's kind of different now because at least they've stopped wearing the wigs and changed the name...?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Bonecruncher
Date: 21 Jan 07 - 02:59 PM

Ruth Archer, I am sure you have the common sense to realise that any form of public display of music and dance will reflect the fashionable music of the time. This is why we today have "pop stars" attempting to act in pantomime and the modern, American influenced, baton-twirling majorettes in local carnivals.
Minstrel songs were popular in the 1920's and '30s - see any music book of that time for proof. I have two "News Chronicle" song books, both of which contain Negro Spirituals and Plantation Songs (quoting from the titles). A date in one is 1932 and I know the book wsa second-hand then, because it belonged to my late Father-in-Law.
So, of course, songs of years ago were likely to have been the "pop somgs" of their day, in the same way as some of our folk songs were of their time.
As time moves on, so those pop songs become old-fashioned and are no longer used.
So it is with Padstow Darkie Days.
Please stop trying to change history. Just accept that things have moved on and enjoy that which is current, in the same way as you today enjoy a particular band who, tomorrow, yu will not even look at!
Colyn.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 21 Jan 07 - 03:08 PM

But the defence of blacking up is historic.

Our objections are that this practice is currently offensive.

As time moves on, so those pop songs become old-fashioned and are no longer used.

rainbow up!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: GUEST,pat
Date: 21 Jan 07 - 03:14 PM

I wish at least one advocate of blacking up for Darkie Day would address Ruth's question, as to whether they would feel comfortable showing todays black/asian British children their custom.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: guitar
Date: 21 Jan 07 - 03:28 PM

I mean it's a part of their festival, their custom as well.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Azizi
Date: 21 Jan 07 - 03:32 PM

An excerpt from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackface

"Blackface is a style of theatrical makeup that originated in the United States, used to affect the countenance of an iconic, racist American archetype — that of the darky or coon. Blackface also refers to a genre of musical and comedic theatrical presentation in which blackface makeup is worn. White blackface performers in the past used burnt cork and later greasepaint or shoe polish to blacken their skin and exaggerate their lips, often wearing woolly wigs, gloves, tailcoats, or ragged clothes to complete the transformation. Later, black artists also performed in blackface.

Blackface was an important performance tradition in the American theater for over 100 years and was also popular overseas. Stereotypes embodied in the stock characters of blackface minstrelsy played a significant role in cementing and proliferating racist images, attitudes and perceptions worldwide. In some quarters, the caricatures that were the legacy of blackface persist to the present day and are a cause of ongoing controversy.

By the mid-20th century, changing attitudes about race and racism effectively ended the prominence of blackface performance in the U.S. and elsewhere. However, it remains in relatively limited use as a theatrical device, mostly outside the U.S., and is more commonly used today as edgy social commentary or satire. Perhaps the most enduring effect of blackface is the precedent it established in the introduction of African American culture to an international audience, albeit through a distorted lens. Blackface minstrelsy's groundbreaking appropriation, exploitation, and assimilation of African-American culture — as well as the inter-ethnic artistic collaborations that stemmed from it — were but a prologue to the lucrative packaging, marketing, and dissemination of African-American cultural expression and its myriad derivative forms in today's world popular culture".

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Azizi
Date: 21 Jan 07 - 03:33 PM

And here's a Mudcast post reposted without comment:

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Oh! Joe the boat's a going over
From: GUEST,Dave Sunshine - PM
Date: 19 Jan 07 - 08:34 PM

A version of the 'A' part of the tune is also used for the tune known as 'Clee Hill' as collected from Dennis Crowther who is from that area, which is not far from Ludlow in South Shropshire. The tune was used by the morris/molly dancers from Clee Hill area and in 'pre-PC' days was known as 'The niggerin' tune' as the dancers went out with blacked-up faces and called it 'Goin' out a-niggerin' The use of the term molly instead of morris,was common in Shropshire and I have met people who remembers 'Going out molly-dancing' in East Shropshire in the 1930s-40s

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Azizi
Date: 21 Jan 07 - 03:39 PM

Here's another repost:

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: Azizi - PM
Date: 25 Feb 05 - 07:59 PM

I'm been away from a computer for most of the day, and have just read posts since earlier this morning.

And I feel a need to comment again about this subject..

I would like to first say that I knew nothing of the European custom of blackening before joining Mudcat 6 months ago. All of know about these customs I have learned from reading these posts, and reading links that have been given on this and other Mudcat threads, and reading one book on South African music that included a chapter on 19th century minstrelsy in Britain.

I acknowledge my lack of direct information, and like Brucie wrote upthread, I am trying to learn more about these customs.

I would, for instance, I would like to know the titles of other books and articles that discuss the past & present relationships between blackening up and the American minstrel traditions For surely such connections existed and appear to still exist, perhaps as new departures from old ways, and perhaps not..

I would also like to know if any studies have been done to assess the opinions of British people of color regarding blackening up. Futhermore, have any scholarly studies been done to assess the impact, if any, of blackening up on the self -esteem and group esteem of Black Britons and other British people of color? It just seems to me that this subject is too important to be relegated to anecdotal stories about whether a person's Black or Indian friends or acquaintances feel offended or do not feel offended by blackening up customs.

Also, it seems to me that people should be interested in whether there were any short term or long term consequences to Whites as a result of their participation in or general knowledge of these customs {for instance, are their differences between the racial attitudes and levels of multi-cultural acceptance of those who participate or do not participate in these customs?}

That being said, I acknowledge that I am very prone to be sceptical of assertions that 'darkie' refers to the dark days, or the only reason why black paint was used was as a disguise so that a worker's boss would not recognize him.. These seem to me to be more like contemporary, politically correct reasons for ancient customs whose original purposes may not ever be totally known-or whose members want to defray accusations [warranted or unwarranted of their insensitivity...

Note that I said "insensitivity" and not "racism"...

This is another time where it would be helpful if Mudcat had posters who are Black Britons and other people of color from Europe and from elsewhere. That being said, I believe this is a HUMAN issue irregarless of one's race.. The central question to me of blackening is what is most important: ancient traditions or treating people with dignity and respect. My concern is that people [individuals and specific groups of people]be treated with dignity and respect.
If, in my opinion, a tradition does not do that, then, as far as I'm concerned, to hell with the tradition.

And this too I believe-given the history of the United States, if private groups were to publicly perform such blackening disguises here, then lawsuits would be filed to halt that practice. And I would be glad about that [and might even initiate or join in such a law suit].

El Greko asked where do we draw the line..and I don't know the answer to that question. All I know is that blackening up is offensive to me whether it is done by [perhaps] well meaning White people or [perhaps] well meaning African Americans who are members of the New Orleans Mardi Gras Zulu kewe.

I accept the fact that some people here at Mudcat and elsewhere may feel that it is offensive of me to have this viewpoint.

I am willing to agree that we will not agree on this issue.

thread.cfm?threadid=78748
Padstow Darkie Days [2005]

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 21 Jan 07 - 04:02 PM

"Please stop trying to change history."

Umm, i don't think that's what I'm doing. I've actually pointed to two respected researchers into English calendar custom, one of whom has been good enough to coment here, and their research into blacking up and its connection to minstrelsy.

And as I've said, one of them has actually drawn A DIRECT LINK, supported by photographic evidence, between Darkie Day and minstrelsy.

Now, from what I can tell, it's the people of Padstow (or Cat in particular) who want to pretend that this is not true. that "Darkie" only ever referred to dark nights, and that blacking up in Padstow was only ever a disguise from employers and was NEVER about racial stereotyping.

So tell me again - who's trying to change history?

Denial - it ain't just a river in Egypt.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Goose Gander
Date: 21 Jan 07 - 06:51 PM

I know I said I was gone, but sanctimonious pieties of Ruth Archer and Derek Schofield have driven me back.

The evidence noted by Cats indicates that "blacking up" preceded minstrelsy. Even Ruth Archer cited a reference to the practice from the mid-seventeenth century. Certainly, these and related practices became conflated with minstrelsy in the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries. And this, if I understand her, is at least one of the pillars upon which her arguement stands. "Darkie Days" is related historically - to a certain, if unclear degree - to black face minstrelsy, and hence is 'inappropriate' and worthy of censor (self-censor or otherwise). Alright then, let's look at North America and consider a hypothetical scenario -

a. minstrelsy is offesive
b. cultural practices and artifacts related to or derived from minstrelsy are inappropriate and should be ended.

Now let's take a look at what we lose. Blackface minstrelsy was far more complex than the Ruth Archers and Derek Schofields of the world would have us believe. Minstrelsy was one of the primary mediums (not the first and not the only, though) through which white and black musical forms and styles cross-fertilized and mingled. The distinctive folk and popular forms of North American music were created through this process of hybridization. Do you enjoy jazz, ragtime, country, blues and rock and roll? Minstrelsy lies within the family tree of all. But minstrelsy is offensive, so into the garbage they go.

For a more balanced view of the significance of minstrelsy than you'll find in the screeds of Ruth Archer and others, try the following:

Eric Lott, Love and Theft (New York and Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1993)

William Mahar, Behind the Burnt Cork Mask (Urbana and Chicago: University of Illinois Press, 1999).

Dale Cockrell, Demons of Disorder (Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1997)

Hans Nathan, Dan Emmett and the Rise of Early Negro Minstrelsy (Norman, Oklahoma: University of Oklahoma Press, 1962)

"Early Banjo Tunes and American Syncopation," The Musical Quarterly, Vol. 42, No. 4 (Oct 1956), pp. 455-472

And there's plenty more where that came from. You might want to do a little homework before making blanket statements about a topic of which you seem to know so little. But that requires time and effort of mind, and it's so much easier to pile up on someone else's tradition and take some local custom out of context for your own ego gratification.

I'm not even defending blacking up, I'm defending the right of the residents of Pastow to conduct local traditions as they see fit. Traditions develop and evolve out of give and take between myriad competing and mutually reinforcing influences. "Darkie Days" may fade away, or it may evolve into something related yet qualitively different. Either way, it's noone else's goddamn business. I would not introduce "blacking up" into anyone's school program - and noone has suggested it should be. I am arguing that a local event should be understood in a local context. Someone who really had any respect for cultural differences wouldn't be trying to impose their luke-warm, politically correct, university jargon-ridden misunderstandings on someone else's party.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Bonecruncher
Date: 21 Jan 07 - 07:38 PM

Excellently and eloquently said, Michael.
Colyn.