Lyr Req: A Cappella Ballad Recommendations

Subject: Lyr Req: Acapello Ballad Recommendations
From: GUEST,irish-hed
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 07:51 PM

Hi,

Does anyone have any recommendations for non-typical Irish ballads that would normally be sung without music. I'm particularly interested in humorous ballads or Irish language ballads.

Thanks

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Acapello Ballad Recommendations
From: Allan C.
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 08:45 PM

Many bands derive their names from those of nearby towns, landmarks or pubs. Some find their names within a favorite song. I would imagine the latter might be your best course. Perhaps you can use a portion of a well known punch line to a humorous song.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Acapello Ballad Recommendations
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 11:25 PM

Try The Irish Jubilee.

Aloha,
Mark

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Acapello Ballad Recommendations
From: Allan C.
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 11:29 PM

Sorry. I misread the request.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Acapello Ballad Recommendations
From: Amos
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 11:50 PM

One of the most beautiful things Burl Ives ever recorded was an a cappella rendition of the Yeats poem "Golden Apples of the Sun" set to a lilting Gaelic tune.
Sorry I cannot be more specific.

A

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Acapello Ballad Recommendations
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 05:58 AM

A cappella means ' in the style of the church ' and does'nt really apply to unacommpanied folk song, it's just a fashion, fad.
eric

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Acapello Ballad Recommendations
From: Mooh
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 10:38 AM

Eric...Or "choral style" I suppose, but has the very common meaning of "unaccompanied" in both church music and folk music where I experience them. Far from being a fad, with the cross-pollination of folk and church music through the ages, the description "a cappella" seems apt to me.

Regardless of description, the request was for unaccompanied Irish ballads.

Brennan On The Moor,
Danny Boy,
Sally Gardens,
Laddie (or lassie) Lie Near Me,
Nora/Maggie,
Spancil Hill,
Peggy Gordon,
Believe Me If All Those Endearing Young Charms,
Kerry Dances,
Song For Ireland,
She Moved Through The Fair,
Rose Of Allendale,
and lots more.

Whether they be typical or not depends perhaps on availability, local recognition, local significance, tradition, and so on.

Good luck.

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Acapello Ballad Recommendations
From: breezy
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 10:49 AM

Peggy was scottish, no?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Acapello Ballad Recommendations
From: Mooh
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 11:38 AM

Hmmm...Regarding Peggy Gordon? You are right, but it doesn't keep Irish bands from playing it. Sorry about that. Makes me wonder again how many old tunes are multinational, missidentified, or have roamed with the tradition beyond borders...but that's been a thread here before I think.

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Acapello Ballad Recommendations
From: GUEST,guest mick
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 11:50 AM

Irish hed .
If you've got a good memory try singing The Cow that ate the Piper.
I've never heard it sung but the words and music are in Sam Henry's book .And it's very funny. Has anyone the time to put the words on the digitrad? I'll do it myself otherwise eventually.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Acapello Ballad Recommendations
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 11:59 AM

Wasn't the Rose of Allendale a Scottish lady too? Sorry Mooh, don't mean to be picky :0)
Johnny

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Acapello Ballad Recommendations
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 12:10 PM

The Cow that ate the Piper is in the DT.

click for lyrics

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Acapello Ballad Recommendations
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 12:22 PM

If you want to be precise, Peggy Gordon is from Canadian tradition, and seems to have been unknown in Ireland until commercially recorded in the late 1950s or early '60s; its roots are diffuse, but seem to owe most to Scotland and England (the tune is the well-known Banks of the Sweet Primroses), though doubtless there are Irish roots somewhere in there as well. Laddie (Lassie) Lie Near Me is Scottish; Maggie has been examined here in great detail in the past and is a product of the Canadian/American songwriting industry; both Song for Ireland and The Rose of Allandale are English. The last is particularly so, as the form in which it is usually sung derives directly from the Copper Family of Sussex, who made some characteristic and easily-recognisable changes to Jefferys and Nelson's original melody.

There is a strong tendency for the same songs to be mentioned every time anybody asks a very vague question like this. There are a great many very fine and interesting songs which are really Irish, and it baffles me why the same old recently-imported chestnuts constantly crop up. I suppose it's largely because of the omnivorous nature of popular performers like the Clancy Brothers, Dubliners and so on: they recorded anything that took their fancy (the Clancys are reputed to have paid someone to pick up likely material around the then-flourishing English folk clubs) and these songs were then learned from their records by a great many people who simply assumed, without thinking about it, that it was all Irish material.

The Cow that ate the Piper is a good thought. Beside the DT entry (ignore the query in line 2; the suggestion in brackets is wrong), see:

Lyr Add: THE COW ATE THE PIPER Lyric, no tune.
Lyr Add: DINNY THE PIPER Lyric, with mistakes. No tune.
'Milesian' or Militian' in CowAtePiper? Background discussion, link to broadside example.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Acapello Ballad Recommendations
From: Mooh
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 03:25 PM

Strollin' Johnny...Yeah that's what I thought too until some Irish woman set me straight, and who am I (a Canadian) to correct an honest-to-goodness Irish woman about the songs she sings..."I learned it in Irland so it must be Irish!" Geez! I think we both might be right for all it matters, but picky is what we do best around here.

Malcolm...Peggy Canadian? Didn't know that, and I bet my fellow celtoid band mates didn't either. Thanks.

I should check my sources better...and so should that damnable source Soodlums which put such tunes in their "Irish" collections to confuse us provincials, I've noticed.

But thanks...

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Acapello Ballad Recommendations
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 13 Mar 04 - 02:13 PM

The earliest revival recording of "Peggy Gordon" in Ireland that I know of was made by The Dubliners around 1965, with Luke Kelly
doing the singing. Was there anybody earlier?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Acapello Ballad Recommendations
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Mar 04 - 08:50 PM

The normal way of singing songs in the Irish tradition has historically been without musical accompaniment. They can all sound fine without instruments. There's a lot to be said for the pattern of evening in which the musicians stop when the singer begins, and they listen, and the other way round.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Acapello Ballad Recommendations
From: Leadfingers
Date: 14 Mar 04 - 06:45 AM

It always amuses me - This thing about wether or not a song is Irish.
There has always been a lot of cross-fertilisation in the Folk world
(Yes that is a polite way of saying Stealing!) and a lot of the blame lies with the people who publish the 'Irish' Song books , who totally
disregard the wtiters in so many cases. Ewan Mc Coll Eric Bogle and
Ralph McTell all appear in 'Irish' Song books.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Acapello Ballad Recommendations
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Mar 04 - 07:00 AM

You mean, for example the Ossian set of four books "Folksongs & Ballads popular in Ireland"? - which of course is the plain truth, since they are; and which involves no claim or implication that the songs in question are all made in Ireland.

In fact it specifically states in an introduction that "The purpose of this book is to provide you with the songs that are actually popular in Ireland today."

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Acapello Ballad Recommendations
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 02:51 AM

Eric - Mooh is right. A cappella isn't restricted to church music, where the singing was done without the accompanimenr of instruments, but it is explicitly used in nonclerical choir singing.

"cappella" The Concise Oxford Dictionary of Music. Ed. Michael Kennedy. Oxford University Press, 1996.

Wilfried

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Acapello Ballad Recommendations
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 03:34 AM

If Mooh is right the would you call obscene sea shanties a cappella,
or good old English drinking songs a cappella ? I think not. The proper term for folk song sang without musical instruments is ' unnacommpanied '
eric

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Acapello Ballad Recommendations
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 06:09 AM

Eric - why not? A cappella is only a style to produce music. To soothen you: In the Carmina Burana, an old manuscript of the 13th century, you find a lot of bawdy songs, satirizing even the holy mass, sung by students and monks without a band or instruments.
The words "a cappella" are an international musical term and don't mean "in church style" anymore, but - you guessed it - unaccompanied, voices only.
We musicians prefer the Italian terms, so we have to learn them only once in one foreign language and not in several.

Believe me.
Wilfried

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Acapello Ballad Recommendations
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 06:30 AM

Precisely - a cappella is a style, normally involving singing without musical accompaniment. But it's not the only style for unaccompanied singing, and the term shouldn't really be used as if it just meant "unaccompanied". It would be quite possible to sing sea shanties in an a cappella syle, but to use that term for the normal style of singing them would not be correct. And the same applies for other songs.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Acapello Ballad Recommendations
From: greg stephens
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 07:49 AM

Hey, this is good. The meaning of a capella instead of the meaning of folk.`Anybody heard a horse singing in a chapel?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Acapello Ballad Recommendations
From: Snuffy
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 09:03 AM

"A capella" = like a choir: multiple voices (and parts), no instrumental accompaniment.

Well, that's what it means when I use it, to differentiate it from other styles of unaccompanied singing such as solo, unison, call & response, etc

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Acapello Ballad Recommendations
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 09:06 AM

Hey Wilf, I'm a musician and I don't prefer Italian terms, love the food though. And what's wrong with calling it unaccommpanied anyway,
I've been listening to folk music for 39 years, playing for 25 years,
if ' unaccommpanied was good enough for the last revival it's still good enough for me.
eric

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Acapello Ballad Recommendations
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 09:19 AM

Fruitless discussion. Have you ever heard sea shanties "a cappella" according to Snuffy's definition: like a choir: multiple voices (and parts), no instrumental accompaniment? I have, more than once.
So let it be with Caesar ...

Wilfried

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Acapello Ballad Recommendations
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 09:48 AM

Not real shanties I'll venture to guess, only revival singers. Collectors like Stan Hugil and Bill Doerflinger said that most shanties were too obscene to be sang in public or to be printed.
eric

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Acapello Ballad Recommendations
From: Big Mick
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 11:16 AM

To get back to the request, I would recommend a street song, such as THE FINDING OF MOSES. It would be important to hear a recording of the song to get the style and meter correct. This is one that is best sung "in dialect" if you can pull it off. If you were to Google "Brendan Nolan" you would find a very good version on his CD titled "Familiar Brew". Brendan is a Dublin man, so his version is a very good benchmark. You should also look for recordings by Frank Harte. He will have many of the street ballads. Frank is one of the foremost singers of this style out there. I don't know where you are but if you go to ELDERLY INSTRUMENTS WEBSITE and put "Frank Harte" into their search engine you will find his recordings.

Finally, you would be hard pressed to beat our own DAN MILNER aka LIAM'S BROTHER as a source. His CD "Irish Ballads and Songs of the Sea" would be an excellent resource, as would his book "SONGS OF ENGLAND, IRELAND, AND SCOTLAND, A Bonnie Bunch of Roses". These are available from Dan himself, as well as from Folk Legacy Records. I believe that Dan is one of the foremost musicologists today, and his knowledge of the music as well as his ability to ferret out old songs from earlier eras, is amazing. He searches old collections for songs/music that harken from times before recordings were available, and then "restores" them. Billy O'Shea comes to mind. Another that he found, and my band recorded, was "Sligo Musketeers". This one would be a good one unaccompanied as well. We recorded it with a bodhran, bouzouki, and a jug. Wonderful song.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Acapello Ballad Recommendations
From: GUEST,irish-hed
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 12:32 PM

Wow! Thanks for all, the responses! It'll keep me busy for a while. I'm amused at the discussion point over the 'acappela' but I think Mooh was right in that the request was for unaccompanied Irish Ballads.

But thanks again for all the suggestions - Keep them coming!

Irish Hed

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Acapello Ballad Recommendations
From: pavane
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 12:46 PM

And as we always point out here, Danny Boy (song) is ENGLISH, written in 1911, set to an IRISH tune.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Acapello Ballad Recommendations
From: GUEST,Crystal
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 01:06 PM

McGintys Meal and Ale, and songs of a similar nature are great unnacompanied. There was one about an Irish/American senater celebrating his re-election with a feast. I can't remember more though
Whisky in me Tay is a good one too.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Acapello Ballad Recommendations
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 01:16 PM

McGinty's Meal and Ale is Scottish, of course.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Acapello Ballad Recommendations
From: GUEST,guest mick
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 02:30 PM

Sorry I didn't check properly with the digitrad before suggesting The Cow that ate the Piper.
Three more suggestions : Men of Sweet Liberty Hall ; Dickies in the Yeomen and Bob and Joan
The first two I think were by Zozimus and in my opinion two of the finest songs ever written .Bob and Joan or Stoneybatter (to the same tune to Courting in the Kitchen )is ribald and probably should only be sang when drunk to an audience of drunks .

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Acapello Ballad Recommendations
From: Mooh
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 07:24 PM

There are any number of airs, sometimes sung a capella slash unaccompanied rather than played instrumentally. Londonderry Air (Danny Boy) has any number of words, probably even some Irish ones (wink), Lark In The Clear Air, For Ireland I'd Not Tell Her Name, Parting Glass, Boys of Wexford, Foggy Dew (of which there are several versions)...you get the idea.

Ballads? Sort of, in the right hands.

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Acapello Ballad Recommendations
From: GUEST,Puffenkinty
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 07:39 PM

"My Lagan Love" sounds great sung without
accompaniement. So does "Quiet land of Erin".

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Acapello Ballad Recommendations
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 07:46 PM

When it comes to "humorous ballads", you couldn't do better than Nell Flaherty's Drake - and sticking any kind of instrumental accompaniment on that would just get in the way of the words and the (mock)venom.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Acapello Ballad Recommendations
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 16 Mar 04 - 04:26 AM

Any English songs or ballads because the English tradition is an unaccommpanied tradition.
eric

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Acapello Ballad Recommendations
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 16 Mar 04 - 04:54 AM

Of course, if you're really looking for an Irish ballad, then you should simply use The Irish Ballad. What more do you need? And it sounds fine when you sing it Acapulco, too.

Aloha,
Mark

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Acapello Ballad Recommendations
From: Glynis
Date: 16 Mar 04 - 04:55 AM

Try to listen to some recordings of Joe Heaney, Paddy Tunney and Elizabeth Cronin (late 'source' singers). Superb singers, singing some superb songs. An example is Coonla, sung by Joe Heaney, in a mixture of English and Gaelic - quite a humorous song.

Also, have a look at the Voice of the People CD's - you'll find a whole section devoted to them on 'Mustrad' website, including extensive sleeve notes on all the songs and the singers!

Glynis