BS: George W.'s Real New Plan

Subject: BS: George W.'s Real New Plan
From: Peter T.
Date: 12 Jan 07 - 03:52 PM

It is fairly clear from the straws in the wind that the real new plan is not what the commentators have been saying. The real plan is to delay the Iraq situation long enough so that the subject can be changed to the Iran threat. Various reports (Sunday Times, the Spectator) have now been carefully leaked to make it clear that the Israelis are planning to use nuclear weapons to destroy the Iranian nuclear plants, and that only the Americans can stop them, or help -- this presumably explains why the new guy in the region is from the Navy.   The New Bush solution: escalate the problem, and shift countries. It is noticeable that he injected Iran and Syria into his speech. The solution is to shift bad guys and make them to blame for everything going wrong. This should take about six months, just the "surge" timetable.

yours,

Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: George W.'s Real New Plan
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Jan 07 - 04:02 PM

That sounds like an extremely likely scenario to me, Peter. I think you are probably correct. It will be repeated over and over again in the western media that Ahmadinejad promised to "wipe Israel off the map", which in fact he did not. Saddam is dead now, Osama is passe, and a new dire threat to all mankind is needed for the war propaganda machine, a new swarthy Islamic monster who must be stopped!!! And it will be Ahmadinejad, of course.

I wonder if the American public will buy it?

Of course, if someone (like the Israelis) drops a couple of nukes on Iran then it won't matter whether the American public bought it or not...because a new and very expanded conflict will be an accomplished fact from that moment on. Pandora's box will have been well and truly opened, and no one will be able to shut it.

Subject: RE: BS: George W.'s Real New Plan
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 12 Jan 07 - 04:11 PM

Yes, & there will be precious little 'HOPE' left inside if that happens, LH!

Subject: RE: BS: George W.'s Real New Plan
From: katlaughing
Date: 12 Jan 07 - 04:15 PM

And, the idjit actually said we are "bringing peace to the Middle East!"

I do not think the American people will buy this one. They've had it and they voted their disgust and they are keeping up the pressure on those they voted in to put a stop to the bush-shit.

Subject: RE: BS: George W.'s Real New Plan
From: Amos
Date: 12 Jan 07 - 04:21 PM

I guess he must be thinking of the "peace of the grave" rather than the peace of well-managed life. Not that he would know the difference.

A

Subject: RE: BS: George W.'s Real New Plan
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 12 Jan 07 - 05:11 PM

My own hope is the the Project for the New American Century policy wonks have been pushed back into an annexe by the inner circle in the White House, and Bush's primary concern now (like Blair's) is his legacy - he's concerned at how he'll be perceived by posterity and doesn't have the nerve to start any more wars. Hence the recent shuffling of the cards in the cabinet.
Thus I don't think he will actually attack Iran. Plenty of sabres will be rattled, but I think the hope is that Ahmedinajad will tacitly back down before push comes to shove- and then Bush will claim that as a triumph for his special brand of diplomacy.
Militarily the US hasn't got what it takes to carry out an invasion of Iran. A few Tomahawk strikes, yes, but anything dustier, forget it! This is Bush as poker player - but the trouble is, Ahmedinajad is as aware of his weaknesses and unpopularity as anyone else. It's not a good situation in which to be player poker, particularly given the stakes.

Subject: RE: BS: George W.'s Real New Plan
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Jan 07 - 05:26 PM

The American people have already "bought it" by putting their faith in the electoral system rather than getting out on the streets.

Never forget that the Dems voted FOR this war and have no intention of becomming the party which turned the chance of victory into inglorious and humiliating defeat.

As with all politicians, self image is worth much more than the lives of our children and the children of our "enemies"

WE learn nothing.........Ake

Subject: RE: BS: George W.'s Real New Plan
From: GUEST,282RA
Date: 12 Jan 07 - 05:53 PM

I would agree that Bush is going to try to shift the blame for his arrogance and stupidity to Iran and Syria. And it will work. You should see how many Americans foam at the mouth at the mere mention of Saddam Hussein. And it's obvious they were conditioned to do this via the media and nothing else. So the media machine will feed us horror tales about Iran and Syria and the same thing will happen--idiotic yanks will swallow all that garbage and blame them for this whole debacle.

As for the dems, I've already lost faith in them to do anything sane. They yacked about a 5-day work week for Congress and then call Monday off so they can watch a college football game (that didn't even come on until the evening anyway).

Pelosi is micromanaging everything and refusing to let various committees properly investigate the lies and corruption of this administration.

Lieberman is now not going to pursue the administration's foul-ups over Katrina. He's even gone so far as to say that certain evidence is now missing and then HE LEAVES IT AT THAT!! That should be an investigation of its own and he's going to drop the whole thing instead. Granted he's not officially a democrat but really he is.

Subject: RE: BS: George W.'s Real New Plan
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Jan 07 - 07:05 PM

The Democrats and Republicans are two halves of the same rotten piece of fruit. They serve the industries that fund them, not the public. To expect either one of them to behave responsibly would be like expecting a wolf to become a vegetarian.

Subject: RE: BS: George W.'s Real New Plan
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Jan 07 - 07:13 PM

A dog will eat vegetables if hungry (and a labrador will eat anything any time any place) so I'm guessing if a wolf wants re-election enough he will say or do anything.

Subject: RE: BS: George W.'s Real New Plan
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Jan 07 - 07:26 PM

Yes, of course he will say or do anything...while he's campaigning. After he's elected, however, he goes back to doing what he does best.

Subject: RE: BS: George W.'s Real New Plan
From: Bee
Date: 12 Jan 07 - 09:24 PM

My poor Southern neighbours, you really do need a new electoral system, one that allows you to 'kick da bums out' with more frequency, perhaps. (Note I haven't suggested ours, although I do prefer it to yours, it ain't by any means perfect.)

Subject: RE: BS: George W.'s Real New Plan
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Jan 07 - 09:31 PM

Naw. What they need is to abolish those 2 political parties and start all over again with no political parties at all.

Subject: RE: BS: George W.'s Real New Plan
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 13 Jan 07 - 03:29 PM

a US strike or (US backed Israeli strike) on Irans nuclear reactor sites
would be counter productive - It wouldnt be like the Osirak Reactor in Baghdad in 1982 as the potential targets are spread all over Iran.
2nd it would endanger US troops in Iraq - it would increase the power of the radical clerics even more in Iran.
Certainly oil tanker traffic in the gulf would grindto a halt and oil prices would go up. The IRanians have their own versions of the Russian
supercavitating Shkval torpedo - which can travel up to 370km/h underwater - and to which the US navy has little defense.

(and I wouldnt be too cocky about the US navys ability to detect an attack, despite all the systems they have - a US Carrier did collide with an Iraqi fishing vessel a couple of years ago)

Subject: RE: BS: George W.'s Real New Plan
From: Ron Davies
Date: 13 Jan 07 - 05:43 PM

petr is absolutely right. Oil prices would "go up" is putting it modestly. And an attack on Iran is the only surefire way to totally destroy the Iranian opposition to the present regime.

I believe that even clueless Bush knows this. He's putting all his eggs in Maliki's basket. The US will not invade Iran. Whether Israel will attack is anybody's guess.

One of the ironies of the Iraq situation is that Bush's new best friend in Iraq is the head of SCIRI--as fundamentalist a Moslem group as they come. But--a counterweight to Sadr. Therefore, the hope is that therefore Maliki will not be as beholden to Sadr as he is now--and can crack down on Sadr's militias--or countenance the US doing so. In theory.

Subject: RE: BS: George W.'s Real New Plan
From: Ron Davies
Date: 13 Jan 07 - 06:50 PM

Too many "therefore"s. Na und?

Subject: RE: BS: George W.'s Real New Plan
From: Peter T.
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 03:15 PM

I think that all the consequences you both cite are likely, but I don't think that will stop either Bush or the Israelis. When in doubt, change the subject, escalate.   The strategy of hardline pre-emptive attack is very much alive and well -- the Americans borrowed it from the Israelis.

yours,

Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: George W.'s Real New Plan
From: Jeri
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 04:17 PM

The most realistic worst-case scenario? I don't think we'll go after Iran because they're too big and too powerful, and the current administration likes foes they can appear to soundly trounce. Bush & co. have been rattling sabers at Syria for quite a while. There will be a story that Syria has been involved in supplying and/or training Iraq insurgents. Bush and co. will invade Syria, but do so at a point in time where he can name a successor or say that a like-minded Republican must be elected so we can get the job done.

Then again, perhaps Congress will clip his wings, monetarily speaking. Perhaps nothing even close to this will happen, and I'd be glad.

Subject: RE: BS: George W.'s Real New Plan
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 04:23 PM

Yes, Syria is always a possibility, assuming Iran appears to be just a bit too much to take on. However, they do have Iran completely surrounded. That must make it quite tempting to someone with Bush's grasp of military realities.

Subject: RE: BS: George W.'s Real New Plan
From: Ron Davies
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 06:47 PM

No, not even Bush will invade Syria (nor Iran). There's no way--trumped up story about supplying Iraqi insurgents or not--that Congress would give him yet another blank check. He knows this--and knows that therefore attacking another country without Congressional approval is a shortcut to impeachment--and likely conviction and removal, as the first US president to have that distinction.   (Already richly deserved, of course. But not really the place in history he's angling for.)

He's tied his entire "presidency" to Iraq. The question is: will Maliki take the steps necessary to make the Sunnis believe they can trust the police?--specifically, purging the Shiite militias from the police. As I've been telling Teribus, for over a year, I believe--(and he's been denying)--that's the only way to have any chance to defuse the civil war.

And the issue of oil income distribution will have to be dealt with--again so the Sunnis feel they can get a fair shake from "Iraq"--even rump "Iraq"--(without "Kurdistan"--which as has been said before, is already de facto independent. And the Kurds are smart enough to not insist on de jure independence.)

Subject: RE: BS: George W.'s Real New Plan
From: SINSULL
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 07:16 PM

I have been playing with the idea of reinstating political marriages. baby bush should marry off his two useless daughters to eligible men of good families in Iran and Iraq thus creating permanent bonds between our countries...
It's been a long week.
SINS

Subject: RE: BS: George W.'s Real New Plan
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 07:48 PM

That sounds just like what Alexander the Great would have done in a similar circumstance.

Times have certainly changed. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: George W.'s Real New Plan
From: Bev and Jerry
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 09:25 PM

It seems to us that Bush has gotten us into a mess from which there is no way out with any dignity and he (finally) knows it. His plan is simply to stay the course with occasional cosmetic changes to tactics and terminology until one of two things happens. Either congress will force a withdrawal of troops or his successor will do the same. In either case, Bush will be able to say to his dying day, "If we had only persevered and followed my plan we would have been victorious".

Bev and Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: George W.'s Real New Plan
From: Peter T.
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 10:21 PM

No, there is nothing of interest in Syria.   The target is Iran. There is no chance Congress would consider impeaching him for "protecting Israel".   

yours,

Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: George W.'s Real New Plan
From: Peter T.
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 10:23 PM

and here's old reliable Dick Cheney today (from the British BBC):

Speaking to Fox News, Mr Cheney said Iran was "fishing in troubled waters" by aiding attacks on US forces and backing Shia militias involved in sectarian violence.

"I think the message that the president sent clearly is that we do not want (Iran) doing what they can to try to destabilise the situation inside Iraq.

He added that the Iranian threat was growing, multi-dimensional and of concern to everybody in the region.

Mr Cheney's television interview formed part of attempts by the Bush administration to promote the new drive to improve security in Iraq, which involves sending an extra 21,500 US troops.

yours,

Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: George W.'s Real New Plan
From: Peace
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 10:24 PM

Just read on a few news sites that Bush intends to disregard the wishes of Congress. He's gonna increase the number of troops in Iraq. I don't know enough about how the American system works. Can he ignore Congress?

Subject: RE: BS: George W.'s Real New Plan
From: Ron Davies
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 10:56 PM

He can "ignore Congress " now since Congress gave him the go-ahead to use force in 2003 (if it was necessary in his judgment (Bush? Judgment?) Congress can refuse to appropriate money, but, as you know, those who do will then be accused of "deserting our troops in time of war" (never mind that the war was unnecessary and started under false pretenses).

However, that does not change the fact that he cannot invade another country now without authorization to use force (again) from Congress. And this Congress will never give it just on the basis of an alleged conspiracy against the US. This time proof will be needed. Fool me once.....

If "protecting Israel" meant attacking Iran, there is every chance Bush would be impeached--and convicted. Israel does not run US foreign policy--and it's verging on anti-Semitism to suggest that it does. I hope nobody is suggesting this.

Subject: RE: BS: George W.'s Real New Plan
From: Peace
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 10:57 PM

Thanks, Ron. I was unclear on that. Appreciate your response.

Subject: RE: BS: George W.'s Real New Plan
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 11:02 PM

Hmm. So what is really required, then, I suppose, is another very bad "terrorist" attack on American soil...? I bet that would prove sufficient to get Congressional consent.

Subject: RE: BS: George W.'s Real New Plan
From: Barry Finn
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 01:35 AM

Mary that's a great idea, to marry off his two daughters. Though he'd do better if they were horses. The best that they'd produce would be foul foals & the good 10 or 12 studs would then have to be shot so that none would know where the defects were coming from.

I hope for the nation's sake they practice safe sex.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: George W.'s Real New Plan
From: Ebbie
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 02:08 AM

Remember Cambodia?

Subject: RE: BS: George W.'s Real New Plan
From: Peter T.
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 07:40 AM

It is hardly anti-semitism to suggest that Israel is the centrepiece of American foreign policy in the middle East. In fact, the opposite: support for Israel demands that some solution be found to the Palestinian issue, otherwise everyone will be dragged down.

yours,

Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: George W.'s Real New Plan
From: Ron Davies
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 08:14 AM

It is, however, ignorance--or worse-- to suggest that Israel's welfare is the guiding principle behind US foreign policy--that, for instance, there is "no chance" that Bush would be impeached if he attacked Iran in order to "protect Israel"--and no other reason. And to avoid impeachment, the "other reason" cannot be a shadowy conspiracy. Proof will be needed this time.

Subject: RE: BS: George W.'s Real New Plan
From: Ron Davies
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 08:21 AM

Though I obviously agree that some solution must be found to the Palestinian situation--and that Bush has thoroughly ruined US chances of helping this-- during his regime-- by his blatant abandonment of the "honest broker" approach of previous administrations. Just one of a LONG list of ways Bush has made the world situation worse.

Subject: RE: BS: George W.'s Real New Plan
From: Charley Noble
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 12:01 PM

Evidently the Iranian staffed office in the Kurdish region of Iraq that was raided recently was functioning as an informal consulate with the approval of the Kurdish administration. The Kurds are not pleased that it was raided and shut down, especially without their prior approval.

Too bad, it seemed the one part of Iraq where are soldiers were still welcome.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: George W.'s Real New Plan
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 03:44 PM

Well, some evil Iranians had to be found somewhere to crack down on! Can't those Kurds see the big picture? ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: George W.'s Real New Plan
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 04:09 PM

There is a lot of discussion about exactly how much and in what way he can 'ignore Congress' some of the money he needs has already been appropriated, but he will need more, and he isn't likely to get much more, except as funds earmarked for troop protection and withdrawal. A constitutional lawyer said that any sneaky tricks of trying to use signing statements or moving other funds about would likely result in serious charges.

Congress does have 'some' leverage now.

Subject: RE: BS: George W.'s Real New Plan
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 04:26 PM

"If "protecting Israel" meant attacking Iran, there is every chance Bush would be impeached--and convicted. Israel does not run US foreign policy--and it's verging on anti-Semitism to suggest that it does. I hope nobody is suggesting this."

What the fuck does "verging on anti Semitism" mean?
Surely one is either anti semitic or not.
Anyone who thinks that America does not take the State of Israel's aspirations into account when formulating it's foreign policy is indeed guilty of "ignorance or worse"

And I am no anti-semite....Name calling is the easy way out on this forum.
Peter T was addressing US foreign policy, not religious bigotry..Ake

Subject: RE: BS: George W.'s Real New Plan
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 04:49 PM

The real plan is to delay the Iraq situation long enough so that the subject can be changed to the Iran threat.

Not quite, but close.

The real plan is to delay the Iraq situation long enough so that this colossal clusterfuck becomes the next president's problem to resolve.

Will the "American People" buy it? In a New York minute.

Subject: RE: BS: George W.'s Real New Plan
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 04:58 PM

That would actually be exactly what a reasonably canny politician would do...he'd delay, drag it out, and then pass the buck to the next administration and let them deal with it. We'll see in the next 2 years if Bush is that reasonably canny or if he's crazy enough to enlarge the conflict by attacking still another country.

Subject: RE: BS: George W.'s Real New Plan
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 05:07 PM

Its also what an ignorant jackass whose advisors weren't absolute morons would do. Wait for it.

Subject: RE: BS: George W.'s Real New Plan
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 05:21 PM

Id venture that whoever is in the next administration doesnt want to deal with it. You will see a substantial troop reduction, and withdrawal to bases by next election.

Idont think that Bush and his administration realize the US population is no longer buying the scare tactics that the 'Democrats would be giving in to terrorism' (the last election showed that.)

Subject: RE: BS: George W.'s Real New Plan
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 05:35 PM

Quite so, Greg. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: George W.'s Real New Plan
From: dianavan
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 07:46 PM

"...(without "Kurdistan"--which as has been said before, is already de facto independent. And the Kurds are smart enough to not insist on de jure independence.)" - Ron

Unfortunately, they are not smart enough to stay out of Baghdad. Looks like Bush is sending the Kurdish military (3000 or so) into the "eye of the storm". I guess Bush figures they owe him a favour.

Big mistake!

Subject: RE: BS: George W.'s Real New Plan
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 07:52 PM

My God. If I was a Kurd I would not volunteer for that mission.

Subject: RE: BS: George W.'s Real New Plan
From: Peter T.
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 08:36 PM

It is interesting that no one has heard anything from the Turks about any of this, who have always been adamant about no Kurdistan (one of the few opinions they share with the Iranians). They must be lying low because of the European Union discussions.

yours,

Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: George W.'s Real New Plan
From: GUEST,Peter Woodruff
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 10:30 PM

We're all gonna die!

Peter

Subject: RE: BS: George W.'s Real New Plan
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 11:14 PM

Apropos of what, Peter Woodruff? Are you referring perchance to the threat posed by Liechtenstein? See my thread on that subject.

Or have you just become aware of your own mortality? ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: George W.'s Real New Plan
From: GUEST,Peter Woodruff
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 11:18 PM

Induced Armageddon! Geoge W.'s New Plan...This could be BIG!

Peter

Subject: RE: BS: George W.'s Real New Plan
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 11:29 PM

Oh, I see... ;-) Yes, that is a big one allright.