Review: Grumpy British Folkies part 273

Subject: RE: Review: Grumpy British Folkies part 273
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 17 Jul 12 - 07:43 AM

Bloody Hell Blandy, you've been reading Sweeney Astray again!

Subject: RE: Review: Grumpy British Folkies part 273
From: Jack Campin
Date: 17 Jul 12 - 07:45 AM

I get the impresssion that there are certain elements that champion any folk music except British and American out of fear of being called xenphobic and not being clever enough to see the kings new clothes.

I presume by "certain elements" you mean Ian Anderson - who has been fronting his own blues band for about 40 years. Or perhaps you don't count black American music as really American enough for you?

Subject: RE: Review: Grumpy British Folkies part 273
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Jul 12 - 07:48 AM

Subject: RE: Review: Grumpy British Folkies part 273
From: GUEST,BrendanB
Date: 17 Jul 12 - 06:12 AM

Having read right through the thread I can only imagine that Al has some kind of agenda focussed on the editor of fRoots.
................................
absolutely spot on Brendan

Subject: RE: Review: Grumpy British Folkies part 273
From: Will Fly
Date: 17 Jul 12 - 07:54 AM

Spleen darling, I wouldn't call you self-righteous whatsoever. If I had to park my arse on one side of the fence (or even on one of Michael's chairs), it would probably be yours. It's not that I really care.

I find it ironic that, at a time when "folk" (however you define it) is alive and well and kicking in this country and probably in a better state than for some years, so many people continue to be discontented with whatever happens. And my old local jazz scene has diminished from what it was, say, 30 years ago. All those smelly old jazzers have gone to that great Jam Session in the sky.

I will make one observation: I don't get the point, constantly made by Al, that there is a great Hierarchy or Officers' Club or Folk Aristocracy which is a closed clique, answerable to no-one but itself. Whatever musical path you take, there will always be people better at it than you. There will always be people with better connections than you. There will always be people who push more than you, etc. And by "you", I mean all of us. That's life. Get over it or get on top of it. I was happy to be able to play with people like Disley and Humph and George Melly - and even Bud Freeman - now and then. I would have been a bloody sight unhappier if I'd had to play with Coltrane or Miles Davis, because they were the Aristocracy!

I would have really had to get the chords right!

Subject: RE: Review: Grumpy British Folkies part 273
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 17 Jul 12 - 07:55 AM

"There are thousand of Al Whittles, and Richard Bridges - running open mics and folk clubs - all round the country. doing gigs in low prestige places for little money."

True. That would also apply to the artists I work with at Folk Police and other friends who are musicians or who do behind-the-scenes folky things. Most of them don't complain about it - they just get on with it. Most people I know who are involved in folk music as musicians or running labels, clubs, festivals etc have day jobs. In fact that's true of people involved in other sorts of music too. There's loads of music out there. Not everyone can make a living out of it. Me, I'm just happy to have had the opportunity to spend some of my savings on bringing out a handful of albums I'm incredibly proud of. If they break even or make a small profit that's even better, because it means I can do some more. That's the reality for a lot of small labels.

"Occasionally getting 'allowed' to do ten minutes as a support act for some of the officer class."

The larger touring acts usually have their support acts arranged by their booking agents - either someone else one their books or in some cases an artist the headliner have specifically wanted as a support. At least its not like rock music where people often pay to be the support act, though I've no doubt that also happens. Most people I know play gigs wherever they can get them - often not even at folk clubs - or organise and put on their own gigs. It's normal. It's reality. They aren't the 'officer class'. They're just musicians who are doing better than some other musicians.

"This is folk music. preoved by the presence of folk - not 'the folk audience' but folk. All those songs that you pretend to revere - The Wild Rover etc - that is the forge in which they were created."

We live in a different world. Most people who play instruments or sing aren't interested in traditional songs or even non-traditional folk club music. And why should they be? There's loads of other stuff out there.

"Not in the in Right On Performance Centre, by graduates of the hoity toity high and bloody mighty folk aristocracy."

Again, who are these people? The people who play arts centres and rock venues and village halls and so on do so because more people want to see them than can fit in the back room of a pub. They got to that position by all sorts of means, but generally it involves lots of hard work and being good at what they do (even if it's not always to my taste). Luck and promotion also come into it. I look at a venue like Bury Arts Centre, who promote folk and roots music, blues, rock, pop, tribute bands, comedy and so on and have a real commitment to supporting local artists and I see nothing 'hoity toity right-on' about it.

"And in our roles - running little studios, little folk clubs, little open mics... we see loads of of young kids who write their own music, and don't know how to play your political correctness, and 'this is in a modal scale darling' dull bloody conformity games - just give up."

And here in Manchester you can go to loads of bars, open mics, acoustic nights and so on (and even folk clubs) where these kids are gigging. I know this because I go to them. You can go to nights they have put on with their friends. You can go to gigs put on by local promoters who book national and international touring acts who will put them on as a support. You can go to festivals where they get booked (I recently went to Lunar Festival, for example, and you couldn't move for young guitar-slinging singer-songwriters). They weren't giving up because opf alleged 'political correctness'. They certainly weren't giving up becasuse fRoots covers folk musicians from overseas. Equally, they don't tend to be interested in the Grumpy Old Man folk scene when they could be playing to their peers.

Subject: RE: Review: Grumpy British Folkies part 273
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 17 Jul 12 - 08:00 AM

Ah ha! Will said it far better and more succintly...

Subject: RE: Review: Grumpy British Folkies part 273
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 17 Jul 12 - 08:05 AM

Are Folk chairs different from IKEA chairs? For sure, the idea of the handcrafted antique piece of dairy-maid-made folk-art treen will always be appealing, likewise the miner's cracket, but the underlying principle is identical to any other arse parking device the world o'er. I've got a cracket made by my great-grandfather in his downtime in between shifts at the pit. It really is a fine piece of work; like my folk art fiddle, made in Didsbury in 1930 - one offs, as all things are ultimately. Both our Poang chairs are identical, but they are not the same, otherwise there would only be one of them, thus they are unique. One is presently covered in hard-drives, sun hats (ha!) and DVD boxsets of I, Clavdivs and The Likely Lads; the other with a DVD boxset of Buffy the Vampire Slayer, a DVD of Pasolini's The Decameron & several copies of Stirrings.

Actually, the internationalism of FRoots is complemented perfected by the parochial nature of magazines such as Stirrings which serve their local Folk "communities" and generally don't stray too far from UK Folk (other than when they feature some wyrdlore type on the cover as if the editor is determined to put his readers off). How many of these local / regional Folk 'zines are there? Dozens I would think, and whilst not all are up to the journalistic & graphic standards of Stirrings, they all do the job for (one hopes) the very best o' reasons.

UK Folk : It's nothing if it ain't local!

Subject: RE: Review: Grumpy British Folkies part 273
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Jul 12 - 08:09 AM

'The very nature of Music is defined by Traditional and Ethnic / Cultural context. If this isn't the case, oh wise one, then feel free to tell me one that isn't - and tell me why it isn't'
.,,.
If I get your point here amidst all the verbiage, Sean, the answer would be that this is merely a variant of the bloody horse ~~ a concept you yourself a. dismissed out of hand, & then, b. quoted approvingly some posts back:

'whilst of course not all music is Folk Music, we still, as yet, ain't heard no horse singing a song.'

I'm not going off on the bloody horse again, except perhaps to remark that I never saw a horse dance in a tutu but I still don't think Swan Lake...

Al ~ tanx. It's parked OK at the moment in that green revolving chair in my study: but I'll bear your kind invitation in mind!

Traditional greetings to all our readers

~M~

Subject: RE: Review: Grumpy British Folkies part 273
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 17 Jul 12 - 08:14 AM

One more point. I had the pleasure of seeing Sunjay Brayne at the Lunar Festival, someone who I know ticks a lot of Al's boxes as a musician and performer. All the things that Al says hold people back don't seem to be holding Sunjay back. He's getting bookings, he's appearing at festivals, he was featured in the Folk Awards young musicians segment and got national mainstream radio coverage from this. He's also talented and clearly hardworking. I'd be interested to know how Al's theories about the hoity-toity-right-on-officer-class-folk-aristocracy-yada-yada applies in his case. Unless he's applied to join it? ;-)

Here he is perfoming at the National Forest Folk Festival: Sunjay Brayne

Subject: RE: Review: Grumpy British Folkies part 273
From: Vic Smith
Date: 17 Jul 12 - 08:33 AM

I have been tempted to join in with this thread - though wading through turgid postings from entrenched positions has prevented me. It would be very pleasing to read something even vaguely original in the many Mudcat discussions about fRoots and its firm policy that folk music does not just include English speaking countries.
I have written extensively in the past for fRoots, The Living Tradition and for that matter English Dance & Song. I have even been offered the joint editorship of one of them on more than one occasion; an offer which I turned down as I consider that I already have enough on my plate. Over the years, I have also written for a number of regional magazines and more academic publications. I consider myself to be a friend of the editors of the three magazines that I have mentioned. In my one and only posting in this thread, I would like to make the following points:-

* I read avidly (my wife might say "obsessively") every issue of all the national folk music publications and many of the regional ones that I obtain on a "swap issues" basis (I am joint editor of the Sussex area mag The Folk Diary). My firm opinion is that the best written, best designed and most comprehensively interesting of the lot is provided by fRoots. Even though its editorial policy is much broader than just what happens in the UK, I find more that is relevant about the state of the British folk scene in fRoots than the other magazines. It has never failed to meet a publication date in 33 years of its existence and it pays its contributors handsomely and promptly... that is, those who send in invoices. Personally, I stopped sending invoices several years ago when I understood the the recession meant that it was in financial difficulties and I considered that I would prefer to have fRoots continuing than being paid for writing for them.

* If you are interested in "World Music" - a term that I have never liked - compare the content of fRoots with that of its main competitor, Songlines and decide which magazine is presenting in-depth articles and which favours short promotional "puffs" for artists along with a glossy photo.

* Those who consider that interesting folk music stops at Dover and make supposedly funny references to invented foreign traditions such as we have read above in this thread are truly missing out. Believe me, the world is full of exciting traditional music - real people expressing their own culture outside the confines of the music industry of the Western developed countries. There is so much that is exhilerating and fascinating that it is impossible to keep up with it all. I could cheerfully spend the rest of my life listening the fabulous roots, folk and traditional musics of West Africa - but I won't because there is so much of interest elsewhere including the incredibly rich British folk song and music heritage.

* The real world situation outside of Mudcat is nothing like the "Folkier Than Thou - we know what is right" attitudes that I read here. Mike (Will Fly) is right about the songs of Jimmy Rogers, the music of Jelly Roll Morton and Irish dance tunes existing side by side with other rootsy music and songs at the Lamb. It will be the same at the Folk At The Royal Oak in Lewes on Thursday when Jim Eldon sings and plays his amazingly eclectic selection of music from traditional ballads learned from his father-in-law to recent pop hits and his own compositions and "I am Agency" sits happily alongside "The Cruel Mother". On the few evenings when our great kora-playing friend from The Gambia, Jali Sherrifo Konteh, was not booked during the three UK tours that we organised for him, we took our instruments and he took his to the sort of sessions that Mike mentions above. The other musicians just loved him and could not get enough of his playing. He in turn wanted to hear everything that the British tradition had to offer and he loved it.
In March, we got out of Sherrifo's beaten-up old car in Brikama and he took out his car battery so that he could attach his second-hand CD player to it - he has no electricity nor running water in his compound. He then put on one of his Shirley Collins albums.
Next month we are off to Sardinia and apart from having a relaxing holiday, I will be wanting to investigate and follow-up the contacts that I have made amongst the supreme singers of Canto a Tenore. Here is magnificent traditional singing that still exists in everyday life. Open your ears and enjoy it. Here's somewhere to start:- http://youtu.be/cWVCMvbGcPA

Subject: RE: Review: Grumpy British Folkies part 273
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Jul 12 - 08:37 AM

'They weren't giving up because opf alleged 'political correctness'. They certainly weren't giving up becasuse fRoots covers folk musicians from overseas'

They will do.

Sunjay - like Lucy Ward has had mentoring (by people who have informed them which way to jump in this very tricky game)coupled with supportive parents.

Not evety perrformer has these advantages. Sometimes with great talent.

And seeing as you mention it, Sunjay could do with a few more gigs.

Subject: RE: Review: Grumpy British Folkies part 273
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 17 Jul 12 - 08:40 AM

Thanks Vic, priceless

L in C#

Subject: RE: Review: Grumpy British Folkies part 273
From: GUEST,Phil E. sans cookie
Date: 17 Jul 12 - 08:48 AM

Thank heavens I'm not really interested in folk songs

Oi, Fly! Don't forget your promised AFSAY project. We're still waiting!

Me, I'm all about the songs, and the older the better; the coverage of my ideal mag would consist mostly (but not exclusively) of people doing English traditional songs, with perhaps a featured singer-songwriter every issue (we could call it No Listen, This One's Actually Quite Good). I don't really relate to music from places where they don't have the decency to speak English, because when I'm listening to songs I like to listen to the words - essentially I like to learn the words. But it's probably my loss; I'm probably missing out on a whole bunch of interesting sounds which would be to the Benefit of my Musical Education. (Never listen to ambient/electro/whatever any more, either. I was heavily into the Orb for a while back there (until they got silly), not to mention Underworld (until they got boring) and FSOL/AmAnd (until they started giving me the creeps). But anyway.)

Anyway, the reason why I'm telling you all this - apart from having nothing else to do with my lunch hour - is that the bits of the folk scene that can turn me into a massive knee-jerking Grumpy English Traditional Bore aren't "world music" at all, but imitation American styles sung in fake American accents, not to mention sentimental paddywhackery of the Wild Rover/Athenry/You Can Take That Black Velvet Band And variety. Both of which, I think I'm right in saying, Al would file under Real Folk For Real People or words to that effect.

I don't think there's necessarily any consistency to any of this. Most of us are passionate about something we call "folk"; most of us have a few things in mind as really good examples (now that's what I *call* folk), and a few other things in mind as really bad examples (call that folk?). The problems start when we assume that other people have exactly the same mental map as we do.

Subject: RE: Review: Grumpy British Folkies part 273
From: Will Fly
Date: 17 Jul 12 - 08:49 AM

Hallowe'en, dear boy - not before Hallowe'en...

Subject: RE: Review: Grumpy British Folkies part 273
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 17 Jul 12 - 08:51 AM

If I get your point here amidst all the verbiage, Sean, the answer would be that this is merely a variant of the bloody horse

Not so. All I'm saying that whilst all music is human, none is Equine. All music is born of idiomatic tradition, community, culture & ethnicity but is ultimately about the individual mastery of that idiom. That all musical idioms are demonstrably & evidently unique is something else entirely. I suspect the same can be said of different languages - and (apologies to Mr Ed fans) horses don't speak either. I accept 'Folk Character' - in contrasting different approaches to even the same instrument (the violin playing of Jim Eldon, or the violin playing of Nigel Kennedy) I might admit that whilst both are a matter of aesthetical mastery, I'm more inclined to ascribe a greater 'human' intent to the former. But you get muso tedium in any music; to hell with slickness (but another reason I avoid diddley-dee).   

How we see the uniqueness of Word Musics comes down to two things I suppose, depending on your proclivities for nationalism and/or racism. I think it was Hamish Henderson who pointed out that before we can be truly National, we must first be truly International. I also think that lies at the heart of what Folk Roots is about. Music isn't quite so coded as language - I like watching foriegn films with subtitles, rather than dubbed, to get the cadences at least. Japanese cadences appeal to me in a way that French ones don't (though I love French rap); I love watching Icelandic sitcoms for the same reasons, just as I might react differently to (say) Iranian Classical music than I do Indian, if only because the Iranian modes & structures feel closer to home somehow, but I'm prepared to admit that's a personal thing entirely. I once was moved to tears by a recital of Chinese classical Guanzi music - an instrument I'd never heard before up until then but, for whatever reason, it went straight to the heart.

Subject: RE: Review: Grumpy British Folkies part 273
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Jul 12 - 08:52 AM

Give in! We inhabit different worlds.

Subject: RE: Review: Grumpy British Folkies part 273
From: Will Fly
Date: 17 Jul 12 - 08:58 AM

imitation American styles sung in fake American accents

Yo Bro! Here's one guaranteed to turn you quite blonde with grief:

Deep River Blues

That's my mate Wolfie on vocals, with me playing second guitar, doing our very best Doc Watson imitations. Strange as it may seem to you, having been brought up in Scotland and England, with ancestors and immediate family from Scotland, Ireland and England, I actually feel happier, more at home and more at ease singing and playing this stuff than anything else in the world.

Subject: RE: Review: Grumpy British Folkies part 273
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 17 Jul 12 - 09:03 AM

I might add that the individual voices of any given tradition can be, and ought to be, treated entirely subjectively. The scope for diversity is endless really. As long as human beings are being fruitful & multiplying, there will be new people along to make that a reality...

http://youtu.be/DzahAyVvz94

Subject: RE: Review: Grumpy British Folkies part 273
From: matt milton
Date: 17 Jul 12 - 10:03 AM

"imitation American styles sung in fake American accents

Yo Bro! Here's one guaranteed to turn you quite blonde with grief:

Deep River Blues

That's my mate Wolfie on vocals, with me playing second guitar, doing our very best Doc Watson imitations. Strange as it may seem to you, having been brought up in Scotland and England, with ancestors and immediate family from Scotland, Ireland and England, I actually feel happier, more at home and more at ease singing and playing this stuff than anything else in the world"

I don't think you're a very good example of what you think you are, Will!

The thing is, the singer ISN'T singing in a fake American accent.

He's singing in his own accent, with only the merest hint of the mid-Atlantic on "I/ah" and "on/awn" sounds. That's so much better than all the fake-sounding bellowing buh-looz voices, drenched in an unconvincing american accent that you hear on Paul Jones' Radio 2 show.

I really enjoyed that. I wouldn't have enjoyed it nearly so much if Wolfie literally HAD been trying to do a Doc Watson impression (accent and all).

Now if you want to hear something that REALLY makes this point, check out Frank Fairfield's music: he's an American who paradoxically sounds like he has a fake American accent...

Subject: RE: Review: Grumpy British Folkies part 273
From: BrendanB
Date: 17 Jul 12 - 10:16 AM

Al's last post on this subject was very revealing. He has a massive grudge against a group of people who he castigates as 'high and mighty bloody folk aristocracy' and 'the officer class'. Who and why Al?
I do not pretend to revere The Wild Rover, where the hell did you get that idea from? My preference is playing in our band - melodeon, bouzouki and flute - and we play anything that we like, songs and tunes that we can make work whether they are English, French, American, Irish or Welsh. (We've got a set of Welsh tunes, a bit like Breton andros). The point is no-one tells me what to like but fRoots, uniquely, gives me information about the kind of music I am likely to be interested in which is why I value it. Can I also say that I agree entirely with Blandiver. I love folk music but it does have some adherents who fit into the tosser category.

Subject: RE: Review: Grumpy British Folkies part 273
From: Will Fly
Date: 17 Jul 12 - 10:24 AM

Bugger, Matt - I was trying SO hard to wind up Phil and get him to turn into a Blue Grumpy Toad... Oh well, another time perhaps!

Subject: RE: Review: Grumpy British Folkies part 273
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 17 Jul 12 - 10:30 AM

Yes, M the GM - it's the horse again but he doesn't even know it.

Subject: RE: Review: Grumpy British Folkies part 273
From: theleveller
Date: 17 Jul 12 - 10:40 AM

"Sunjay - like Lucy Ward has had mentoring (by people who have informed them which way to jump in this very tricky game)coupled with supportive parents."

Sounds like sour grapes to me, Al. Who do you think was Lucy's mentor? I first saw her perform several years ago when she was just 17 and she just took my breath away (and brought a tear to my eye). The simple, amazing talent came through from the start. That's what it takes, Al - talent. If you ain't got it you can give up. Lucy has always paddled her own canoe and to begrudge her the success she has worked so incredibly hard to earn is, quite frankly, churlish. And what's wrong with having supportive parents? Tony and Chris Ward are great people who take huge delight in what Lucy does. They're a close family and it's a pleasure to see them together.

Subject: RE: Review: Grumpy British Folkies part 273
From: Will Fly
Date: 17 Jul 12 - 10:48 AM

Leveller, unless I'm mistaken, Al is actually supporting Lucy and saying that, like his good friend Sunjay, she's been lucky in having a good background. He's holding them up as a good example. Others might not be so lucky with guidance and advice and could miss out on opportunities.

If you read his post again, I think you'll see what I mean.

Subject: RE: Review: Grumpy British Folkies part 273
From: theleveller
Date: 17 Jul 12 - 10:54 AM

Oh, sorry - didn't come across like that. Apologies, Al - must try to keep up.

Subject: RE: Review: Grumpy British Folkies part 273
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Jul 12 - 11:40 AM

Reminds me a bit of my first geography book when I was seven.
The first chapter was about about little Bombo, he was a pygmy in the Belgian Congo.. Apart from the risk of crocodiles Bombo had it pretty cool. Running round spearing things, living in a hut, and runinng round with no keks.

Little Tooktu, the Eskimo - you couldn't really identify with....the blubber diet, the igloo, the Mum who looked suspiciously similar to the Dad and the Grandad. The presence of fish everywhere.

Then every year we got the British trades Alphabet catalogue. you could write off to Australia for a bit of sheep's wool. Cadbury's sent a book shaped like a coffee bean.

No wonder we English find it so easy to empathise with cultures other than our own.

I must check Froots back issues to see if Little Bombo pursued a career in music. If he did, I'll check the same people who organised your tour. Perhaps Little Bombo and i could do a gig in his hut, and run around together with no keks on -spearing things.

Subject: RE: Review: Grumpy British Folkies part 273
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 17 Jul 12 - 11:57 AM

The Congo?

Now you're talking!

Konono No 1

Subject: RE: Review: Grumpy British Folkies part 273
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Jul 12 - 12:01 PM

Yes Lucy used to go to the same folk club I went to for years in Spondon. Great kid!

Subject: RE: Review: Grumpy British Folkies part 273
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 17 Jul 12 - 12:10 PM

Al - "running around with no keks on, spearing things.."
Ah, the dreams of youth...

Subject: RE: Review: Grumpy British Folkies part 273
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Jul 12 - 12:14 PM

'Al Whittle or Richard Bridge - neither of whom I have heard of other than through this forum'

Can't speak for Richard, but I might as well come clean. I don't really exist. I am a fictional creation - Big Al Whittle, the private folk detective and bon viveur who first appeared in a book by Mike Grosvenor Myer 'Murder at the Cambridge Folk Festival'.

In the novel, the official folk polic Inspector Cringe and his long suffering Sergeant, Vic Smith are baffled. Superintendent Jim Carrol is threatening to take them off the case. But the case has them all puzzled - a particularly nasty member of the working classes has sneaked in and poisoned the entire Copper family and Little Bombo, an up and coming pygmy folksinger, in order to get their spot in the club tent.

There many twists and turns in the extraordinary plot, but Big Al Whittle steps in and sorts everything out with his leetle grey karaoke machine.

'Unputdownable' The Dorset Gluemakers Monthly

Subject: RE: Review: Grumpy British Folkies part 273
From: Vic Smith
Date: 17 Jul 12 - 12:19 PM

Spleen Cringe wrote:-
The Congo?

Now you're talking!

Konono No 1

Really lovely stuff, Nigel, and thanks for drawing our attention to it, but do you know what the music in that video you linked to developed from? If not then listen to this fabulous 1952 track (from when it still was called "The Belgian Congo") of the great Baziri Teofili reciting whilst he plays his mbira and then ask yourself where rap came from.

Subject: RE: Review: Grumpy British Folkies part 273
From: johncharles
Date: 17 Jul 12 - 12:32 PM

Big Al Whittle wi' no keks on
singing the big red sauasage song.
There's an image to bring tears to any Folkies eyes.
Only joking Al.
john

Subject: RE: Review: Grumpy British Folkies part 273
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 17 Jul 12 - 12:49 PM

Cheers for the link, Vic. Lovely stuff indeed (and another thing to add to the increasingly long list of music to explore!).

Subject: RE: Review: Grumpy British Folkies part 273
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 17 Jul 12 - 12:53 PM

The same Youtube user also uploaded this recording from 1952 of a Congolese singer and kundi harp player, Bakia Pierre. Again, it's taken from an old 78. This is really good:

Bakia Pierre

Subject: RE: Review: Grumpy British Folkies part 273
From: BrendanB
Date: 17 Jul 12 - 12:56 PM

Al, I'm glad to hear that you don't really exist, but why on earth would anyone want to invent you?

Subject: RE: Review: Grumpy British Folkies part 273
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 17 Jul 12 - 12:58 PM

And Al, you need to remember that I'm just a constable.

Subject: RE: Review: Grumpy British Folkies part 273
From: Vic Smith
Date: 17 Jul 12 - 01:24 PM

Nigel,
Loved the Bakia Pierre clip.
Sorry to have to add to the long list of music that you need to investigate - but are you aware that both the Bakia Pierre clip and the Baziri Teofili clip that I pointed to are part of the extraordinary collection by the great South African ethnomusicolgist Hugh Tracey?
His work in the 1950s pioneered the documentation of a great body of neglected, extremely high quality music from quite a number of African countries - and working as early as 1951, he made recordings of superb quality, both musically and in terms of their recording quality. Around a dozen of them were subsequently released on the Sharp Wood label, all taken fron the extensive Hugh Tracey Archive which you can read about at http://www.muzikifan.com/tracey.html The only place that I know on the internet where this wonderful neglected music is still avaialable is from http://www.swp-records.com/ - but you are a rich, record-label owner, Nigel. Give your ears a reall treat - buy all of them!

And a big thanks to Al, for creating this very interesting thread drift. It has brightened it up no end!

Subject: RE: Review: Grumpy British Folkies part 273
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 17 Jul 12 - 01:35 PM

Oh Vic, what have you done? I can feel the Folk Police coffers draining even as I type. Think I may start with this one: Origins of Guitar Music or this: Kanyok and Luba... that's my kind of dilemma!

Subject: RE: Review: Grumpy British Folkies part 273
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 17 Jul 12 - 01:50 PM

Excellent. Just found I can get SWP releases via eMusic. Now listening to the Origins of Guitar album. Lovely.

Subject: RE: Review: Grumpy British Folkies part 273
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 17 Jul 12 - 02:11 PM

Just on re-reading Paul Berliner's Soul of Mbira - & listening to his recordings issued by Nonesuch Explorer. Worth looking out in both cases (the book's still in print - try Amazon).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wyp1KbY6R7E

Subject: RE: Review: Grumpy British Folkies part 273
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Jul 12 - 02:22 PM

'Al, I'm glad to hear that you don't really exist, but why on earth would anyone want to invent you?'

Well one things certain, no f---er would invent you, Brenda! (can't stand women who make rude remarks and blame it on 'the change', when its perfectly obvious any change would be an improvement)

Subject: RE: Review: Grumpy British Folkies part 273
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 17 Jul 12 - 02:57 PM

Ah-hah: the ipsissima verba, from the folk21 facebook page

"hi

I'm interested in applying for this, but need to clarify something - does our material have to be strictly trad folk? mostly mine's my own songs, but in folk style.

thanks :)



George Papavgeris It does not have to be strictly trad folk. Though we might steer clear of death metal! Go for it Sue."

Subject: RE: Review: Grumpy British Folkies part 273
From: BrendanB
Date: 17 Jul 12 - 02:57 PM

Hi Al, dyslexic as well I see. Try reading my name really carefully.

Subject: RE: Review: Grumpy British Folkies part 273
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Jul 12 - 03:14 PM

So Brendan...you think we should give you home rule, even after you've been rude....

Subject: RE: Review: Grumpy British Folkies part 273
From: Vic Smith
Date: 17 Jul 12 - 03:37 PM

Blandiver wrote:-
"Just on re-reading Paul Berliner's Soul of Mbira - & listening to his recordings issued by Nonesuch Explorer. Worth looking out in both cases (the book's still in print - try Amazon).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wyp1KbY6R7E"

Again lovely, the whole style is reminiscent of the many recordings made by the superb Stella Chiweshe. And, of course, that lovely rolling mbira sound was mimicked on the electric guitar by people like Biggie Tembo with The Bhundu Boys (the first modern Zimbabwean band that I saw live - unforgettable), The Four Brothers, Thomas Mapfumo & The Blacks Unlimited and all those other Chimurenga bands.

Of course, we have got a great mbira player living in this country, in the West Country, Chartwell Dutiro. I believe he is booked at the Sidmouth Festival again this year.

I was talking to Chartwell once and there was a gap in the conversation and then he said, "Do you know how I got my name?"
I thought about it and replied, "Well, Churchill's property in Kent is called Chartwell....."
He laughed and said, "That's it! My mother took me to church to have me christened. She gave the White Rhodesian pastor my African name. He said, 'Oh! I cannot pronounce that, I'll christen him Chartwell' and then he told he that it was the name of a big house in England."

Can you imagine that?

Subject: RE: Review: Grumpy British Folkies part 273
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 17 Jul 12 - 04:17 PM

I had a South African Xhosa friend who chose the name Lancaster so he could be 'less conspicuous' & 'typically English' whilst living in the UK whilst his wife was doing her degree on the Ruth First fellowship in Durham. Happy times, we to sit around eating squid whilst pouring scorn on Paul Simon whilst listening to Dollar Brand & Johnny Mbizo Dyani.

Subject: RE: Review: Grumpy British Folkies part 273
From: Vic Smith
Date: 17 Jul 12 - 04:54 PM

Wow! Johnny Dyani - there's a lot of memories there. I used to love seeing all those great South African jazzers in London in the 1960s and 1970s. The band that he was in, The Blue Notes, was my favourite of all the great South African jazz outfits - as well as Johnny there was Mongezi Feza, Dudu Pukwana, Nikele Moyake, Chris McGregor and Louis Moholo. They were just outstanding - but, for me, the best musician that played in that band was one who never came to exile in England; Kippie Moeketsi was surely one the world's greatest jazz tenor saxophonists but apartheid meant that he made few recordings and sadly most people have never heard of him.

Subject: RE: Review: Grumpy British Folkies part 273
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 17 Jul 12 - 06:25 PM

I can't help smiling at the glaringly obvious conclusion that the fRoots-bashers are totally unaware that one of their heroines, Carole Pegg, is nowadays a leading authority on Mongolian music.

Subject: RE: Review: Grumpy British Folkies part 273
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 17 Jul 12 - 06:38 PM

I don't remember enthusing over Mr Fox. Openly or covertly.

Subject: RE: Review: Grumpy British Folkies part 273
From: Jack Campin
Date: 17 Jul 12 - 06:49 PM

I can't help smiling at the glaringly obvious conclusion that the fRoots-bashers are totally unaware that one of their heroines, Carole Pegg, is nowadays a leading authority on Mongolian music.

Doesn't Al Whittle see her as part of the hoity-toity traddie conspiracy?