Are all folk musicians political?

Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 05 Feb 21 - 04:30 PM

Saw him at the Cellar Upstairs in London and at the Hawth Theatre in Crawley.

Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 06 Feb 21 - 05:16 AM

Listening to Johnny Coppin's "Midwinter" live CD, and excellent it is - nice songs, great band and no politics nonsense!!!!!

Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Feb 21 - 05:21 AM

There's room for it all in m'humble.

Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: r.padgett
Date: 06 Feb 21 - 05:39 AM

Much of what we in the early days of folk music were listening to was political or certainly was telling stories or expressing a point of view

and yes there is a place for more sentimental songs and humorous songs too

Folk is for me an expression of something that I can empathise or just agree with, political or not

Ray

Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Feb 21 - 05:45 AM

I didn't know Dick Gaughan had hit on hard times. Is anyone having a whip round?

Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 06 Feb 21 - 05:50 AM

Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Feb 21 - 06:11 AM

Dick had a stroke several years ago and gave up performing for the foreseeable future. We had a couple of threads in September 2016 about him, one of which was about a fundraising effort. I can't update things beyond that.

Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Feb 21 - 06:46 AM

ah yes Johnny Coppin, romantic pictures of rural Gloucestershire,The sort of thing most Conservatives would like, the days when farm labourers doffed their forelocks respectfully and brittania ruled the waves songs with very little political content, safe, rose tinted spectacle music

Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Feb 21 - 07:44 AM

Yeh wht you need is something more 'with it'.

Good old Gloucester!
Gloucester's best!
Its the county of Fred West!

Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Feb 21 - 07:53 AM

I prefer DYLANS political songs, North country blues,times a changing blowing in the wind, masters of war to anything of Coppins, then we have some great songs from MacColl, thirty foot trailer, get along shift,freeborn man.my old man, all with social comment
and then Peter Bond with joe peel,baron and the busker

Alan Taylor ROLL ON THE DAY
As the dawn comes creeping, roll on the day
Another night not sleeping, roll on the day
Roll on the morning, roll on the day
I hear the old man softly praying, roll on the day
Praying for another day, roll on the day
But when it comes, it wastes away, roll on the day
Roll on the morning, roll on the day
I hear the old man softly praying, roll on the day
Every night you fight for breath, roll on the day
It hurts so bad, you wish for death, roll on the day
Roll on the morning, roll on the day
I hear the old man softly praying, roll on the day
As the dawn comes creeping, roll on the day
Another night not sleeping, roll on the day
Roll on the morning, roll on the day
I hear the old man softly praying, roll on the day
Roll on the morning, roll on the day
I hear the old man softly praying, roll on the day
A POWERFUL SONG ABOUT ASBESTOSIS in my opinion
knocks anything of johnny coppin into a cocked hat

Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 06 Feb 21 - 08:28 AM

Rubbish

Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Feb 21 - 08:53 AM

You obvious;y don't get it. Its the infantile school of folksong writing. All the colours are different shapes.....

Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 06 Feb 21 - 09:25 AM

I don't need to get it, only interested in the sound - good voice and good backing.

Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Feb 21 - 09:52 AM

the culinary equivalent of living on bootiful turkey,
i am reminded of donald trump, another man who likes to throw his toys out of the pram.
What are you doing on the folk scene? if you are not interested in the lyrics but sound and backing would you not be more at home listening the rolling stones they are non political.. or daniel o donnell, or tom jones, and there are all those middle aged ladies throwing their knickers around and no politics

Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Feb 21 - 10:05 AM

don't insult bonzo3legs.

Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Feb 21 - 10:33 AM

Al
but my opinion, and this is only an opinion, is what is anyone who is not intersted in lyrics and only interested in sounds doing on the uk folk scene ,
the only exceptions i understand, are those people who are inttersted in playing irish or scots or world tradtional instrumental music.
i am not insulting anyone, tom jones the stones daniel odonnell are competent performers
but i am genuinely mystified why anyone who is only interested in sounds and good backing is not happier at a stones concert or at tom jones.or daniel o donnell
.if you come to listen to folk music you are going to encounter political songs or songs of social comment ,if you dont like that why listen to folk music, you are not guaranteed songs of no political content. so unless you are a masochist you have come to the wrong place for just good voices and backing ,why not stick to the bee gees or beach boys

Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Feb 21 - 10:48 AM

If you go to folk clubs or folk festivals you must expect to hear some political songs and some songs of social comment.That has been my experience of 50 years of involvement with folk music
if you want songs which are non political you will find that a good proportion of the repertoire is unsatisfactory.
if you want songs that just have good voices or good backing but are not political you are likely to be better satisfied going to pop concerts, that is not insulting anybody
if i w\ant to hear good improvisation, i go to a jazz club, i do not go to a country and irish concert.
i do not generally expect to hear as high a standrd of improvisation at a folk concert as at a jazz concert,[it might happen very occasionally] but that is not why i attend folk venues, horses for courses

Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Feb 21 - 11:26 AM

you wouldn't like it if someone said you reminded them of Donald Trump.

Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Feb 21 - 12:28 PM

I am Talking about throwing toys out of prams. Trump does that.
these posts are like someone throwing toys out of prams
Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: Bonzo3legs - PM
Date: 06 Feb 21 - 08:28 AM

Rubbish
and
Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: Bonzo3legs - PM
Date: 06 Feb 21 - 09:25 AM

I don't need to get it, only interested in the sound - good voice and good backing.

Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Feb 21 - 12:41 PM

Well he's entitled to do what he likes - they're his toys to throw out the pram,

If someone is being unreasonable, its no use applying reasonable arguments and getting angry.

He says this is what he likes, and not what you like. end of argument. congratulate him for knowing his own mind.

Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Feb 21 - 12:48 PM

Bonzo is "only interested in the sound - good voice and good backing" lets stick to this intellectual proposition.
He does not want anything other than
"only interested in the sound - good voice and good backing."
So why come to a genre[the folk scene]where there are many songs where lyric content is important.
many songwriters who consider their lyrics to be important include Ewan MacColl Alan Taylor Peter Bond LeonRosselson harvey andrews anne lister jez lowe peggy seeger richard grainger graeme miles ron angel ed pickford,
Quite frankly it is insulting their efforts to come on this forum and state
I don't need to get it, only interested in the sound - good voice and good backing.
it seems logical to me anyone who wants thjis is in the wrong place and would be happier listening the sounds of the beach boys tom jones bee gees rolling stones,or and at their pop concerts
I have been involved on the folk scene for 50 years and in all that time songwriters and singers of trad songs consider lyrics to be as important as sounds and good arrangements content is as important as form

Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Feb 21 - 12:57 PM

No Al. i am not angry,I am mystified as to why he goes to folk concerts He is only interested in voice and good backing, imo his attitude is belittling the efforts of song writers who consider their lyrics to be important .
he might be happier leaving the folk scene and going to stones concerts, no politics there, just voice and good backing. he would be inthe company of fellow conservative MickJ agger
congratulate him for knowing his mind?
that is ridiculous, should i have congratulated mrs thatcher for knowing her mind

Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 06 Feb 21 - 01:03 PM

I might be happier if sandman minded his own business for a change!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: GUEST,#
Date: 06 Feb 21 - 01:18 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZH2bmbUTl4

(Couldn't resist.)

Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 06 Feb 21 - 01:20 PM

"it seems logical to me anyone who wants thjis is in the wrong place and would be happier listening the sounds of the beach boys tom jones bee gees rolling stones,or and at their pop concerts"

what is he talking about?? go away boy and play with your concertina and whatever else you play with!!!

Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: Thompson
Date: 06 Feb 21 - 01:35 PM

Sure, folk music is political. By definition, it's the music of the people, and it reflects the concerns of the political. For example:

---

This one, Thompson?

O Antonis or "Andonis" is the second song of "The Mauthausen Trilogy", also called "The Ballad of Mauthausen", a cycle of four arias with lyrics based on poems written by Greek poet Iakovos Kambanellis, a Mauthausen concentration camp survivor. (O Antonis)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3qMCU6mpS0

Looks like the current settings of Mudcat are very intolerant of anything but the "Standard Character Set."
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: Thompson
Date: 06 Feb 21 - 01:37 PM

Whoops, Mudcat doesn't like Greek. Maybe a moderator could swipe it away? It was a folk song called O Antonis; I'll leave you look up the words yourself.

Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Feb 21 - 01:37 PM

A lot of folk music isn't to do with the meaning of the lyrics.

All that Chieftains stuff, morris tunes, Clannad, ....

The branch of folk music that you and I like values lyricism, wit, sophistication - frankly sometimes to the detraction of musicality.

That's okay, blessed are the simple, for they shall be simplified, and its of no great concern or inconvenience to us.

Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: GUEST,#
Date: 06 Feb 21 - 02:01 PM

Here it is in Greek and English.

https://lyricstranslate.com/en/o-antonis-o-adonis-adonis.html

Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: keberoxu
Date: 06 Feb 21 - 03:24 PM

Well, Joanne, you opened Pandora's Box, it looks like!

Mary (mg), I have heard of Martin Simpson, but
not for political bias during performances.

Actually, I am reminded of the remark made during my late lamented days singing in a church choir.
One rehearsal evening our director could not be present,
and one of the choir members, a wife and mother with a long-time membership in the church, substituted.
As we were reviewing the hymns for the coming service,
she quietly remarked that

"for some people who come to church,
our singing is the only Gospel they truly hear."

Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 06 Feb 21 - 03:38 PM

Great voice, great backing and no politics!!!

Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: GUEST,#
Date: 06 Feb 21 - 03:52 PM

In the parlance, that is good enough to make a bishop put his foot through a stained glass window. However, it introduces the notion of class/place in the social order and invites comments (should one be so inclined) to do with 'why'. That isn't necessarily political, but it could be.

Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: GUEST,Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 06 Feb 21 - 04:28 PM

A perfect entertaining example of politics in the Folk Club Scene
"This is a bitter satire by the late, much loved Alex Glasgow, a passionate socialist and a great singer."

Alex Glasgow - As Soon As This Pub Closes

As the subjects of politics and/or religion are frowned on in many pubs
why do we never hear hymns, psalms or Gregorian chants never heard in the hallowed environs of english speaking folk clubs?

Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Feb 21 - 05:30 PM

Bonzo, it is my business i write songs, i spend time crafting lyrics, and someone comes along and says "only interested in the sound - good voice and good backing."
As a singer i am offended because you clearly know nothing about singing, being a good singer is not just about having a good voice,it is also about interpreting lyrics.

Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 06 Feb 21 - 05:39 PM

>>>>why do we never hear hymns, psalms or Gregorian chants in the hallowed environs of English-speaking folk clubs?<<<< Mostly because they're not seen as folk songs, but there are plenty of carols.

Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: GUEST,Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 06 Feb 21 - 05:50 PM

Very Subtle Steve?

Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 06 Feb 21 - 06:09 PM

That is your problem sandman, not mine.

Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: Allan Conn
Date: 06 Feb 21 - 06:50 PM

I am not sure that getting upset that someone doesn't care much for taking note of the meaning of words in our songs is very productive at all. Not everyone listens to music the same way. Just the way it is so why get offended? I do like to take note of the words of a song but at the same time I can fully appreciate how one can enjoy music without taking note of, or even being able to understand what is being said. I love lots of Gaelic language music, French music, Latin music, music with vocal sounds rather than words (for example some Caroline Shaw etc). It is perfectly possible to enjoy singing without knowing what the words are.

Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: GUEST,#
Date: 06 Feb 21 - 07:49 PM

I agree with Mr Conn completely.

Fiorella Mannoia comes to mind. She does a beautiful song (written by Ivano Fossati) entitled 'I treni a vapore', and it has knocked my socks off for years. Fossati also does it and his takes work for me also. YMMV and likely will, but one need not understand a language to appreciate the music people have written in or because of that language. The song is beautiful even though it took me over a year and countless 'listens' to appreciate it more fully. My favourite take of Mannoia's is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=odGWcJnnzVM and Fossati's is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2p_hz-oOcM

Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: Thompson
Date: 06 Feb 21 - 11:39 PM

Dunno about "all that Chieftains stuff". There's a lot of political music in there, from Mo Ghile Mear to The Rebel Jesus to Róisin Dubh.

Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 07 Feb 21 - 12:46 AM

Sandman - there are some singers for whom the song is nothing but a set of technical exercises, and there are some people who like this kind of singing and cannot engage with it on any further level. You can still love those people - even if they don't understand music on any other level than it being a nice sound.

My own father was one such. he could never understand why Shirley Bassey 'brass band' type reading was almost an affront to George Harrison's Something - totally missing as it does,   the yearning and wonderment of the lyrics.

I loved my Dad and respected him. I'm not asking you to love Bonzo, but just accept the fact that his ears are wired to a different circuit to yours and mine. Argument is quite pointless.

Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 07 Feb 21 - 12:51 AM

Hate to point this out BUT:

He is only interested in voice and good backing, imo his attitude is belittling the efforts of song writers who consider their lyrics to be important .

Just because a song writer considers their lyrics important does not mean that they are actually important, relevant or meaningful - all that song writer is doing is expressing his, or her, view on something. It is an opinion, nothing more, nothing less.

Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 Feb 21 - 12:52 AM

We had an obituary for Anne Feeney this week. I would think of her as a consummate folksinger, although she didn't often sing traditional songs. She wrote activist songs, and used her songs in her lifelong career as an activist. Was Malvina Reynolds a folksinger?-I think so. Was she political?-You betcha.



But I really almost hate to see that word "all." There are many folksingers who sing apolitical songs, and many folksingers who sing political songs. I like 'em both.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: reggie miles
Date: 07 Feb 21 - 01:28 AM

Well, I can't speak for all folk musicians. I can only speak for myself. And I have written a pile of political songs. One of my political songs landed me in a news story, called, "No Dough In The Do Re Mi, Songwriters Take On The Recession" (2009), that made the cover of the Wall Street Journal. In the article, the writer Robert Tomsho, mentions three prominent political songwriters, Woody, definitely a political Folk music hero, Tom Paxton, definitely a political songwriter, and Neil Young, I wouldn't have considered him strict folk music figure. I'd say he's a cross-over artist, who branched in the larger scene of Folk/Rock but many of his songs have a definite acoustic Folk vibe and he definitely has a strong interest in political songs. I've heard Dave Van Ronk offer up one of the strongest political folk songs I've ever heard with Patrick Sky, "Luang Prabang." A musical partner and I used to offer it together as well...

Luang Prabang

Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 07 Feb 21 - 02:28 AM

"Just because a song writer considers their lyrics important does not mean that they are actually important, relevant or meaningful - all that song writer is doing is expressing his, or her, view on something. It is an opinion, nothing more, nothing less."

How true!!!

Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Feb 21 - 04:11 AM

No ,Songwriters do not just express their opinion on something, that shows a lack of understanding of songwriting, they also tell stories, express emotions describe situations all through the power and use of words.   What observer says diminishes the art of songwriting
here are examples of well crafted songs that do not express a SUBJECTIVE opinion on something.
Britains Motorways[MacColl] John Of Dreams, Unicorns, Icarus, Moth, Whitby Whaler, Song For Ireland ,Ring Of iron Three Score and Ten[W Delf].Shoals of Herring
all these songs do more than that, they are not just an opinion, and to try and claim such, only belittles the songwriting

I have np problem with someone who can only concentrate on lyrics for a short while, like mg.
Alan Conn, yes of course when music is in a foreign language you listen to it differently from how you do if you understand the lyrics.
    but the OP is talking about lyrics when we understand the language,This is primarily a forum where english and american is the spoken language and the OP is talking about the american folkscene and the uk folk revival and the english american language
Furthermore, in reply to observers comment
"Just because a song writer considers their lyrics important does not mean that they are actually important, relevant or meaningfu"
Bonzo and Observer , to decide that you have to feckin well listen first. if you do not listen to the words, how can you decide if they are meaningful, to decide if they are meaningful you have to have listened..
Bonzo . claims he is only interested in the sound good voice and backing, so it would appear he is not interested in the lyrics , yet   he agrees with the following statement from observer
"Just because a song writer considers their lyrics important does not mean that they are actually important, relevant or meaningful
   THAT MEANS BONZO DOES ACTUALLY LISTEN TO THE LYRICS otherwise he could not make a value judgement as to whether they were meaningful. Here is the lyrics of ENGLAND's MOTORWAYS

Come over here, my little son, and I'll tell you what to do
Undress yourself and get into bed and a tale I'll tell to you
It's all about your daddy, he's a man you seldom see
For he's forced to roam, far away from home, far, far from you and me

CHORUS
But remember lad, he's still your dad
Though he's working far away
In the cold and the heat, all the hours of the week
On England's Motorways

So if you fall and hurt yourself and get up feeling bad
It isn't any use to go a-running for your dad
For the only time since you were born that he's spent some time with you
He was out of a job and he hadn't a bob, he was signing on the buroo

CHORUS

Sure we'd like your daddy here and wouldn't it be fine
To have him working here at home and be with us all the time
But beggars can't be choosers, so we have to bear the load
Cos we need the money your daddy earns, working on the road

Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Feb 21 - 04:13 AM

The Shoals of Herring
Ewan MacColl
With our nets and gear we're faring
On the wild and wasteful ocean.
Its there that we hunt and we earn our bread
As we hunted for the shoals of herring
O it was a fine and a pleasant day
Out of Yarmouth harbor I was faring
As a cabinboy on a sailing lugger
For to go and hunt the shoals of herring
O the work was hard and the hours long
And the treatment, sure it took some bearing
There was little kindness and the kicks were many
As we hunted for the shoals of herring
O we fished the Swarth and the Broken Bank
I was cook and I'd a quarter sharing
And I used to sleep standing on my feet
And I'd dream about the shoals of herring
O we left the homegrounds in the month of June
And to Canny Shiels we soon were bearing
With a hundred cran of silver…

This is an example of a song , that does not just express an opinion

Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Feb 21 - 04:22 AM

here are two well crafted songs that are political but are not just an opinion but are a description of what it is like to suffer from asbestosis
Roll on the Day
Allan Taylor
As the dawn comes creeping, roll on the day
Another night not sleeping, roll on the day
Roll on the morning, roll on the day
I hear the old man softly praying, roll on the day
Praying for another day, roll on the day
But when it comes, it wastes away, roll on the day
Roll on the morning, roll on the day
I hear the old man softly praying, roll on the day
Every night you fight for breath, roll on the day
It hurts so bad, you wish for death, roll on the day
Roll on the morning, roll on the day
I hear the old man softly praying, roll on the day
As the dawn comes creeping, roll on the day
Another night not sleeping, roll on the day
Roll on the morning, roll on the day
I hear the old man softly praying, roll on the day
Roll on the morning, roll on the day
I hear the old man softly praying, roll on the day
PeterBondJOE PEEL
(Peter Bond)

Workington way, when lads left school
Just the pit and foundry beckoned.
Young Joe went down to hew the coal
But not for long, so some folks reckoned.
For Joe could tackle hard and Joe could run,
He only needed time for growing,
And soon he'd signed his name to play
And to the city moved away.

Now on the sports page he'd appear,
The idol of the local lasses.
Out on the field he played it fair,
While all the girls made forward passes.
Until another match turned all the heads -
Jarrow lads V ruling classes,
And with no future in it now
It's home again and underground.

Back underground to hear no lark,
Thirty years from dawn till evening,
Until the coal had left its mark
And to the bank the earth returned him.
No more to sweat his days out in the dark,
Some years on top the dust had earned him,
And all the while the sickness grew
Still he'd ask what he could do for you.

He'd do odd jobs for one and all,
Though snow was thick or rain was teeming,
And all the world would seem to call,
The kettle never finished steaming.
"Reach up!", he'd say, "By God you're looking thin",
While mischief in his eyes was gleaming,
"If Lizzie thinks you're hungry still
There'll be nowt for us in her will".

The day you left I stayed outside,
With scalding tears, no comfort knowing.
We all turned up to say goodbye,
The church was filled to overflowing
You'd never've believed it if you'd seen
How many people mourned your going
And just how lucky folks still feel
To say they knew Joe Peel.

You'd never have believed it if you'd seen
How many people mourned your going
And just how lucky folks still feel
To say they knew Joe Peel.

Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 07 Feb 21 - 04:45 AM

Listening to Soledad Pastorutti, a wonderful Argentine singer.

Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 Feb 21 - 04:53 AM

Now, Dick, be nice to Bonzo, as he should nice to to you. We're here to talk about music.