Is it permissible-to change a word in an old song?

Subject: RE: Is it permissible-to change a word in an old song?
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 14 Aug 10 - 09:24 PM

Jim: ...as remote from the tradition as Peter Pears singing The Lyke Wake Dirge...

An aside here, but relevant i the context of this thread.

Whenever I see the lyrics for Lyke Wake Dirge printed anywhere, the chorus always finishes "And Christ receive thy saule".

When I learned the song as a nipper (and when we sang it as teenagers, doing the walk AND carrying a coffin!) we always sang "And Christ tekk up thy saule"

This to me seems much more in keeping with how it would have been phrased in Yorkshire dialect, and I'd heard it sung that way so often that when I first started hearing "receive" it grated badly, and still does.

I wonder if anyone still sings "tekk up" now, or whether, because it's written down, Suibhne would consider "receive" to be the "correct" form :-)

Subject: RE: Is it permissible-to change a word in an old song?
From: GUEST,Uncle Rumpo
Date: 14 Aug 10 - 10:01 PM

"Is it permissible-to change a word in an old song?"


errrm.. excuse me for being.. well... Uncle Rumpo..

but how come it's taken over 150 replies from all around the world
to just agree

"YES"

.. who cares.. who's gonna arrest you if you do...???



Exhibit A: Old Song

"My Husband's Got No Courage in Him"


Change:

"My Husband's Got No Cyborg Time Travelling Shape Shifting Planet Destroying Future Powers in Him"

there.. see.. done..



.. so has the world stopped spinning on it's axis..????


errrmm.. yet ???


oh f@ck.. what have I done.. run for the hills...!!!

Subject: RE: Is it permissible-to change a word in an old song?
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 15 Aug 10 - 03:55 AM

as remote from the tradition as Peter Pears singing The Lyke Wake Dirge

In the history of LWD post-Revival I dare Peter Pears is just as close to the tradition as anyone else really, unless you have a particular source singer in mind for the song, in which case I'd dearly love to hear it.

The Dirge came before the Walk anyway, an association that dates back to 1955. A quick search on-line reveals that Tak up seems generally favoured of LWWers. We used to sing it at school on account of a treacher who was very fond of the song, the LWW and Folk in general. Can't remember if we sang tak up or receive though. Did I hear the Young Tradition version back then I wonder? I was just a nipper - 9 or 10, circa 1970-71 - and listening to it in more recent years it's always felt more than a little familar, but certainly no more or less effective than Peter Pears.

Subject: RE: Is it permissible-to change a word in an old song?
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 15 Aug 10 - 04:10 AM

PS - Might I just add that as far as Revival Singers go I'm just as likely to listen to John Jacob Niles and Jack Langstaff as anyone who came after them. I'd never heard Jack Langstaff until THIS came out, when it brecame a matter of life & death to hunt out the source!

Subject: RE: Is it permissible-to change a word in an old song?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Aug 10 - 04:25 AM

"I was thinking of Bob Roberts..."
I might have added another four or five singers to your list but, as I said, our (British) song tradition tradition is overwhelmingly an unnacompainied one and by adding instrumentation, particularly with instruments from elswhere other than those common to the British Isles you are making a profound personal change to the songs.
You might add ornamentation to that; the song tradition we received was either an unornamented one, or had long lost an traces of decoration (moot point), so many singers are intervening in the way they are presenting their songs.
so why is it not permissable for someone else to change words, as long as it is done with skill and sensitivity?
Many of the songs in our collections were made when the tradition was way past its prime; we were recording songs from singers who hadn't sung for thirty - forty - fifty years and were struggling to remember them. What we were given was examples of the tradition as an particular singer was capable of producing it at that particular time from that particular singer in the particular circumstances we he/she learned it (and sang it to us).
We recorded a rather beautiful song from a singer named Tom Lenihan; Cailín Deas Crúit na mBó (Pretty Girl Milking Her Cow). I was knocked out by it (still am) and if I had been actively singing I would have had no hesitation in learning it. Some time later I was talking to a collector friend who also knew Tom and he said, "I suppose you know he deliberately left out a verse?" It turns out that one of the verses is somewhat disparaging to women, so Tom didn't sing it for fear of giving offence to Pat. A traditional singer had intervened in his song tradition, making what he gave us another traditional version - which one should I have sung?
Our tradition is made up of tampered with, half remembered, guessed-at at songs; if we want them to be listened to and taken up, I think it is up to us, as singers, to present them in an articulate and entertaining form, as long as we respect what we believe to be the objective of the song; otherwise singing becomes an acedemic exercise.
Rob; Lyke Wake Dirge:
Thanks for that - perfect example of a song being adapted by people who continue to use it for the purpose it was made.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Is it permissible-to change a word in an old song?
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 15 Aug 10 - 04:52 AM

so why is it not permissable for someone else to change words, as long as it is done with skill and sensitivity?

I don't do it myself because it falsifies the thing itself, detracting from its essense and - dare I say - authenticity.

A traditional singer had intervened in his song tradition, making what he gave us another traditional version - which one should I have sung?

As I've said, Traditional Songs existed in a state of fluidity in their natural habitat thus giving us many versions, all of which have equal validity surely? Otherwise, I don't have a problem with dropping the odd verse here & there, but adding a new verse, or changing the text, is a different kettle of fish. For example I seldom sing the final verse of Come Write Me Down, and am duly horrified by the mawkish additions made to Felton Lonnen by Johnny Handle, which have become standard practise even to the point of being enshrined in the Digi Trad.

as long as we respect what we believe to be the objective of the song; otherwise singing becomes an acedemic exercise.

I would say the impulse to sing is objective enough; otherwise singing is never an academic exercise, though I believe things might have been different in The Critics Group. ;-]

perfect example of a song being adapted by people who continue to use it for the purpose it was made.

Er - not quite, seeing as how no one really knows why it was made. The LWW association only dates to 1955!

Subject: RE: Is it permissible-to change a word in an old song?
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 15 Aug 10 - 05:55 AM

Furthermore...

our (British) song tradition tradition is overwhelmingly an unnacompainied one

Agreed.

and by adding instrumentation, particularly with instruments from elswhere other than those common to the British Isles you are making a profound personal change to the songs.

Ultimately culture is determined by the experience of the individual. As I've said elsewhere, I've had folk guitarists get sniffy at the instruments I use and I've had vielded threats in singarounds for using an electronic shruti box. I'd say this had less to do with any allegiance to ant tradition per se as it does to the small minded pedantry one frequently encounters in a revival which seeks to enshrine the colloquial at the expense of the cosmopolitan. At tuch times it reeks of religious fundamentalism, and as with religion, doesn't bare too close a scrutiny either, political or otherwise. My Tradition is, therefore, the Indo-Euporean continuum which is born from the tribal migrations as once eloquently celebrated by A.L.Lloyd to account for the coincidences of modal melismatics from the Himalayas to the Hebrides. Hell, even MacColl was tuning into Islamic melismatics for his own vocal style, just as the celebrated Northumbrian Piper and ne'er-do-well Jimmy Allen was picking up on Indian influences on this travels!

Subject: RE: Is it permissible-to change a word in an old song?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Aug 10 - 06:12 AM

You appear to be moving away from your not altering things because "they don't belong to us" line
"detracting from its essense and - dare I say - authenticity."
What YOU do with your songs certainly distracts from their authenticity, and, for me, their essence - so again - why is it permissable for you to do it and not others?
Sorry - you appear to have painted yourself into corner - again.
The original poster was talking about the changing of someone's nationality - no one here is talking about adding verses of their own; collating different versions to come up with something more satisfying certainly - no problem.
"for the purpose it was made."
Perhaps I should have said 'the integrity of the song' - that's what I meant.
The aim of the Critics Group was far from making singing an academic exercise - I suspect that once again you are wandering into unfamiliar territory, perhaps you might care to prove me wrong by providing some examples of our methods of work - or is this yet another hit-and-run comment in passing?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Is it permissible-to change a word in an old song?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Aug 10 - 07:24 AM

Suibhne: This might appear a vain & conceited post, but if anyone finds it so I beg pardon as it seems relevant here. You were kind enough to write kindly of my version of Butter·&·Cheese·&·All on my YouTube site [http://www.youtube.com/user/mgmyer], which you were good enough to tell me you considered "masterful again" {I had posted it there in response to a request from you, as you had liked my version previously as the title track on my cassette/CD on the Brewhouse label}. This, I stress, was your judgment, not mine.

Yet, according to all you have written here on this thread, you should have disapproved entirely of this rendering of mine, as it follows the principles I enunciated above in my post of 10 Aug, 2.33 pm, and contains many alterations I had made from the version by Sam Larner from which we both learned it — 'in the course,' as I say there quoting my inlay note, 'of making it my own' ~~ which is what I, and those who agree with me, both on this thread and in general, do.

I adduce this, I reiterate, not from vanity, but to demonstrate that I think you are not being entirely consistent within your views expressed here as distinct from your most kindly appreciative and favourable comments regarding my performance of that song.

Best regards   ~Michael~

Subject: RE: Is it permissible-to change a word in an old song?
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 15 Aug 10 - 08:15 AM

Would I ever be so nickpicking to point such a thing out, Michael? After all, how (for all I know) might those changes be unconscious on your part? For sure, a word ot two might get altered unconsciously in the course of a performance, but the gist of the thing remains intact. This is a very different thing from setting out to deliberately change the words of a song because you think you're somehow making an improvement on them, as many have done with Butter & Cheese & All (though I have pinched the tune for another song altogether, which is a different issue!), or that in so doing you're particpating in The Tradition & The Folk Process, which none of us are.

Sorry - you appear to have painted yourself into corner - again.

Appearances can be deceptive, Jim - that's because there's another door - one you obviously can't see. A song is a song - as such it is the conceptual springboard of the corporeal performance. I'm not changing anything; most of traditional songs I do I've never heard sung by a traditional singer - like any other singer I'm doing it according to how I do things. That you don't like it is simply a matter of personal taste - and that it differs from revival conventions is because my musical background is a little different. So what? Again, you're looking for trouble where there isn't any.

Didn't you see my little smiley face after the comment about The Critics Group? People still talk of TCG in hushed tones - how their seriousness was feared even by God. But that was all a long before my time really, so your influence on my life, and singing, is remote to say the least. When I saw Ewan MacColl he was singing ghastly self-penned trash about Apartheid which I found as patronising as it was embarrassing, but righteous politics were never my thing anyway.

If this thread were about revival style it would be a different matter entirely - because I base my much of my musical philosophy on the evident fluity and modality of The Tradition of English Speaking Folk Song. That I prefer drones to chords and improvisation to musical arrangements is, of course, simply a matter of personal taste, but one that derives, ultimately, from the tradition.

Subject: RE: Is it permissible-to change a word in an old song?
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 15 Aug 10 - 08:24 AM

The fact that the walk put together in 1955 and named AFTER the dirge doesn't detract from the fact that "tekk up" is more natural sounding to a Yorkshire person than "receive".

I *do* object to the replacing of "fleet" by "sleet" in many versions, which does show ignorance of its origins by those doing the replacing...."fire, fleet (flet) and candle-leet" historically being the three comforts of a home (a hearth, a good wooden floor and night-time illumination).

Subject: RE: Is it permissible-to change a word in an old song?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Aug 10 - 09:05 AM

You still haven't explained how you are allowed to change the whole presentation of a song - its utterence, so it no longer resembles any traditional rendering of it, yet others aren't allowed to adapt it by adding or subtracting the odd word. Methinks thou hast placed thy foot firmly in thy mouth and knoweth not how to extract it.
The Critics Group is the stuff of urban legend and pretty much open for any eejit to take a pop at it - as youi have just proved.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Is it permissible-to change a word in an old song?
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 15 Aug 10 - 09:26 AM

Do what thou wilt, Jim - just don't do in the name of The Tradition or The Folk Process. Otherwise, be true unto yourself. Apart from which - what else can I say?

Sorry, on hoof right now... must dash.

Subject: RE: Is it permissible-to change a word in an old song?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Aug 10 - 09:34 AM

"Do what thou wilt, Jim - just don't do in the name of The Tradition or The Folk Process."
My point exactly
Jim Carroll