Different types of contemporary folk

Subject: RE: Different types of contemporary folk
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 07:11 AM

I think it's actually fairly simple. The threshold between contemporary (singer-songwriter) folk and traditional folk is pretty recognisable to anyone who is gets really into traditional folk music - like most of the people on this forum.

Martin Carthy's treatment of certain pop and theatre songs (New York Mining Disaster, His Name was Andrew, The Wife of the Soldier) is a really good example. He clearly picks songs that have certain aspects in common with the folk tradition in their words and perhaps music, and that's presumably why he was attracted to them. He sings them with a delivery and arrangements that make it consonant with his other material.

Then there's the next degree of difference: singer-songwriters like the early Bob Dylan, Bert Jansch, Ralph McTell or Nick Drake, who are clearly very influenced by traditional music (who may even play a fair of traditional music) but who mostly play originals.

Then there's pop music that happens to be played on acoustic instruments (Mumford & Sons et al). We've all got ears here; you can call it folk if you like - most people do - but acoustic pop is probably a better term.

Isn't it just as simple as that?

Subject: RE: Different types of contemporary folk
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 10:27 AM

fairly good matt, well done.

Subject: RE: Different types of contemporary folk
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 10:53 AM

I agree with that too, Matt. However, the phrase you used, "you can call it folk if you like - most people do", does complicate issues. If someone who believes Milford and Sons to be folk and go into a folk club expecting to hear that music, they may be disappointed. They may be pleasantly surprised too of course:-) Worse still, if a youngster learns a Mumford song and plays it at a folk club they may received some hostility from died in the wool traditionalists. That is where some guidance may be needed.

Subject: RE: Different types of contemporary folk
From: GUEST,Some bloke
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 01:37 PM

Aye but the issue as ever Dave is that we tend to know what we think we know and are comfortable with. We see it in more than just music.

If you or I type BBC into a search engine we expect The British Broadcasting Corporation. A teenager in The USA smuggling his iPad under the covers at night expects a rather different acronym....

When I used to give talks with traditional ballads thrown in I used to say why go to a museum and see 200 year old ploughs when listening to the songs puts you in the mind, hopes, dreams, fears and aspirations of the people living then?

Contemporary songs can carry this on. Deep Purple’s Smoke on the Water describes an event in time, ditto Boomtown Rats I don’t like Mondays. You could argue that a 350 year old love ballad tells us nothing other than blokes were nursing semis when thinking of their lovers back then.

I go back to my point. It’s a style or set of styles. A genre even. Roots is a term that more of us are becoming comfortable with as it separates the value to future generations from enjoying the noise it makes.

Dave. We must argue this out again at Whitby? It’s a couple of years since we had a pint.

Subject: RE: Different types of contemporary folk
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 04:00 PM

[ go back to my point. It’s a style or set of styles.@]
its no reiterating this, neither is it relevant going onbout trousers up to the tits.
i could sing going on a sunner holiday umaccompanied in sean nos style that does not make it a contemporary folk song

Subject: RE: Different types of contemporary folk
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 04:18 PM

We must, Musket! I am in Whitby in July but the festival is not on then :-( I am finishing work in July as well though so, hopefully, will be able to get out more :-)

Subject: RE: Different types of contemporary folk
From: GUEST,Some bloke
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 06:56 PM

Sorry Dick but it’s a style or a set of styles. Tunes have no words so that kind of pisses on your chips.

You’ll note that neither Steve Roud nor I have trousers up to our tits just yet. Probably because neither of us get hung up on it. He is a learned scholar in the field and I’m just an amateur hobby level researcher into the epidemiology of song.

I’ll stick with what people who don’t let ignorance and personal use of precious words get in the way. Out of interest, whenever I’ve seen you play I have enjoyed the noise it makes. I’ve even borrowed an arrangement of yours on a song. But you do come out with some daft comments on Mudcat. A pity really.

Dave. I retired fully last September. Far more free to make excuses to get around a few more places. Mind you, since retiring I’ve spent time in Thailand and am presently in Canada. I tell the kids I’m spending their inheritance.....

Subject: RE: Different types of contemporary folk
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 02:13 AM

you can think what you like ,but i already said some time ago about certsin modes being CONTRIBUTORY,[ if you paid attention instead of masking puerile irrelevant remarks about tits and trousers, but that is all it is contributory art of it. you are WRONG summer holiday will never be a folk song even if it was sung in aunaccompanid sean nos style, becaouse it is more than style

Subject: RE: Different types of contemporary folk
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 03:02 AM

imo,this song written by harry chapin is a contemporary folk song despite his style and treatment of the song
i was born today the shortest story, compare the lyrics as well as the tune.,
and ignore the style harry does it in.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ix-Yj_Md2no it is more than the style a song is performed in. am born today
The Sun burns a promise
In my eye
Mama strikes me
And I draw a breath and cry
Above me a cloud
Slowly tumbles through the sky
I am glad, to be alive
It is my seventh day
I taste the hunger
compare it to summer holiday
We're all going on a summer holiday
No more working for a week or two.
Fun and laughter on our summer holiday,
No more worries for me or you,
For a week or two.
We're going where the sun shines brightly
We're going where the sea is blue.
We've all seen it on the movies,
Now let's see if it's true.
Everybody has a summer holiday
Doin' things they always wanted to
So we're going on a summer holiday,
To make our dreams come true
For me and you.
For me and you.
And I cry
My Brother and sister
Cling to Mama's side
She squeezes her breast
But it has nothing to provide
Someone weeps, I fall asleep
It is twenty days today
Mama does not hold me
Anymore
I open my mouth
But I am to weak to cry
Above me a bird slowly crawls across the sky
Why is there nothing
Now to do but die?
you see contemporary folk song is about content as well as form as well as style

Subject: RE: Different types of contemporary folk
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 03:16 AM

compare it to summer holiday
We're all going on a summer holiday
No more working for a week or two.
Fun and laughter on our summer holiday,
No more worries for me or you,
For a week or two.
We're going where the sun shines brightly
We're going where the sea is blue.
We've all seen it on the movies,
Now let's see if it's true.
Everybody has a summer holiday
Doin' things they always wanted to
So we're going on a summer holiday,
To make our dreams come true
For me and you.
For me and you.

The Sun burns a promise
In my eye
Mama strikes me
And I draw a breath and cry
Above me a cloud
Slowly tumbles through the sky
I am glad, to be alive
It is my seventh day
I taste the hunger
And I cry
My Brother and sister
Cling to Mama's side
She squeezes her breast
But it has nothing to provide
Someone weeps, I fall asleep
It is twenty days today
Mama does not hold me
Anymore
I open my mouth
But I am to weak to cry
Above me a bird slowly crawls across the sky
Why is there nothing
Now to do but di

Subject: RE: Different types of contemporary folk
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 05:15 AM

time you all went on a summer holiday

Subject: RE: Different types of contemporary folk
From: GUEST,Some bloke
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 01:49 PM

Fred Jordan used to laugh when I introduced him as a real folk singer due to wearing his trousers up to his tits. In fact Tom Brown tried it for a while till Bertha put her foot down. I tend to wear a waistcoat on stage but rather than living the dream, it's somewhere to put picks, capo, tuner etc.

Although Fred only did so to perform....

Harry Chapin was comfortable being referred to as a folk singer as is his mate Bruce Springsteen.

Note the use of comfortable. Possibly because its a style or set of styles....

Subject: RE: Different types of contemporary folk
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 02:06 PM

Dear old Fred played the game set up by others. He simply did what was expected of him. His own culture rejected his songs as old-fashioned as happened to many others in isolated communities. He saw chanty groups of teachers and bank clerks wearing fairisle jumpers and seamen's caps, and others wearing waistcoats and other old-fashioned stuff and thought 'I'll have a piece of this.' He had his old farming gear with his trousers tied up with string and it got him bookings all over the country. It was his persona, trade mark if you like, and why not?

Subject: RE: Different types of contemporary folk
From: GUEST,Some bloke
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 02:18 PM

Absolutely Steve.

Hence him loving it when I (and many others) took the piss when we were comperes.

Performers of any genre should let the music be serious but never ever believe it puts you the person on the same level as your art.

Happy memories of being lucky enough to live down the road from Tom and Bertha Brown as a teenager and accompanying them to many traditional festivals and club bookings, meeting those who influenced my own take on "trad"

Subject: RE: Different types of contemporary folk
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 03:03 PM

tom brown nice man , but not mucgh of a singer in my oipinion, not in the same league as harry cox or phil tanner, as for the song he sang my second name is clarence,poking fun at gay people and transvestites thoroughly nasty song