Antoine Carte painting looted by nazis returned

Subject: BS: Picasso looted by nazis returned
From: olddude
Date: 05 Feb 10 - 01:52 PM

On of the few good stories. Most cannot get their property back. Especially in regard to Swiss Banks.

picasso returned

Subject: RE: BS: Picasso looted by nazis returned
From: Alice
Date: 05 Feb 10 - 01:59 PM

That painting is by Antoine Carte, not Picasso.

Subject: RE: BS: Picasso looted by nazis returned
From: olddude
Date: 05 Feb 10 - 02:03 PM

I stand corrected

Subject: RE: BS: Picasso looted by nazis returned
From: bankley
Date: 05 Feb 10 - 02:24 PM

last week a painting stolen by the Nazis, (there were 1000s) was auctioned at Sotheby's for $45.5 million.. it was titled 'Church in Cassone' and painted by Gustav Klimt... the money will be split between the most recent owner and a descendant of the original owners in Austria who later perished in the halocaust... the descendant is 81 and lives in Montreal...

Subject: RE: BS: Picasso looted by nazis returned
From: mousethief
Date: 05 Feb 10 - 05:57 PM

If I buy a stolen picture, can I have it auctioned off and keep half the proceeds?

O..O
=o=

Subject: RE: BS: Picasso looted by nazis returned
From: gnu
Date: 05 Feb 10 - 06:01 PM

No.

Subject: RE: BS: Picasso looted by nazis returned
From: mousethief
Date: 05 Feb 10 - 06:08 PM

Not fair.

O..O
=o=

Subject: RE: BS: Picasso looted by nazis returned
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Feb 10 - 06:44 PM

The appropriation by the Nazis was (I think) in accordance with German law at the time and by right of conquest German law was (arguably) applicable in even territories outside Germany that were under German occupation. IMHO

So it is not the same as ordinary nemo dat principles.

Subject: RE: BS: Picasso looted by nazis returned
From: Ebbie
Date: 05 Feb 10 - 07:00 PM

"right of conquest"? You mean that German law - any law - stipulated that the belongings of the citizens were up for grabs?

Isn't that crossing the line from lawful to lawless?

Subject: RE: BS: Picasso looted by nazis returned
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 05 Feb 10 - 10:08 PM

That painting is by Antoine Carte, not Picasso

According to some (including his father) most early Picassos were not by Picasso.

(Not that that has anything to do with stolen/recovered art.)

John

Subject: RE: BS: Picasso looted by nazis returned
From: mousethief
Date: 05 Feb 10 - 10:32 PM

gnu, what if I declare war on my art-loving neighbour and take his Andrew Wyeth by right of conquest? Then can I sell it and get half?

O..O
=o=

Subject: RE: Antoine Carte painting looted by nazis returned
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 06 Feb 10 - 06:15 PM

I believe that in the Autobiography of Alice B. Toklas, Gertrude Stein told how someone (S) showed Picasso (P) a painting, and Picasso said,

P: "That's a fake."

S: "But I saw you paint it myself!"

P: "So what. I paint fake Picassos myself sometimes."

Subject: RE: Antoine Carte painting looted by nazis returned
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 07 Feb 10 - 04:55 PM

From ancient notes:

The Han van Meegeren Case

In the mid-20th century a Dutch artist was caught selling very high quality forgeries of (supposedly unknown) Vermeer paintings. He had great success at getting these paintings authenticated for years even though he painted them himself.

In his court case where he stood accused of collaborating with the Nazis by selling them "cultural treasures," in his defense he proved that he had forged the paintings he sold to high Nazi officials by demonstrating his ability to make fake "Vermeers" before the court.

An "after the fact" narrative about the trial (previously at http://www.alamut.com/proj/87/dayOfTrial.html, but the link apparently goes nowhere now) indicated that he "painted a Vermeer" in court. "Experts" were then called in and examined the painting and agreed that the painting was an authentic Vermeer. (It was not reported whether the experts were allowed to handle the painting and might have noticed that the oil was still "wet.")

And:

Another purported fraud apparently not widely known is the charge made that Picasso, in his early years, forged his own name to paintings and sketches made by his father, in order to create a portfolio that would gain him admission to the art academies. (He didn't last long at the academies.)

There has been some debate over whether Picasso actually could draw, and these early works have been frequently cited as proof that he could, but just didn't choose to. If the forgery charge is given credibility, along with a few other bits of evidence, he probably really wasn't particularly "competent," although a very few later works would suggest that he wasn't completely incompetent – at an advanced high school level perhaps.

Picasso in his younger days used his given name Pablo Ruiz, and the drawings/paintings submitted were all signed "P Ruiz." His father, Jose Ruiz signed his "J Ruiz." All the "P Ruiz" signatures cited show a conspicuous "hook" at the bottom of the "P" that likely was the result of Pablo adding the top loop to a pre-existing "J."

A lawsuit against a museum holding a number of the works was reported (in Dutch) at http://www.picassocontrepicasso.com/research_docs_e.htm; but the cited site also appears to have disappeared. The suit contested values placed on the works by the museum, "for the protection of donors," and was probably more noticed by accountants and actuaries than by the art world(?).

One "evidence" introduced in the case was (photos of what was claimed to be) the father's gravestone which includes the engraved accusation of the fraud.

There are numerous "collectors" who specialize in collecting "frauds," and some of the more notorious ones are marketable at prices approaching real works by the artists.

John

Subject: RE: Antoine Carte painting looted by nazis returned
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 07 Feb 10 - 08:32 PM

There is an excellent new book, 'The Forger's Spell,' by Edward Dolnick, about the forgeries of van Meegeren. It's a very good read.

One thing it didn't tell me was how to say 'van Meegeren.'

Subject: RE: Antoine Carte painting looted by nazis returne
From: Charley Noble
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 08:58 AM

It's depressing the number of fake art works that are offered for sale on eBay, signatures added to works that are clearly the work of someone else.

It is nice to see some of the artwork looted by the Nazis returned to family members, even after 90 years.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Antoine Carte painting looted by nazis returned
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 04:04 PM

And there also has been some progress in the return of art looted by the British, French, and others to Greece, Rome, and Egypt (and others), although it's more of an intermittent dribble than any kind of organized repatriation.

Occasional reports of re-distribution of Native American artifacts (including Inuit, Aztec and Inca, etc) also surface.

It is sometimes regrettable that returning "art" to its proper owners may appear to reduce access by art lovers; but doing what's right is often different than doing what we'd like to see done.

The "regret" should also be tempered by estimates that less than a very few percent of the holdings in large collections are ever displayed or otherwise accessible to the majority of those who might like to see them, regardless of who claims to own them.

John

Subject: RE: Antoine Carte painting looted by nazis returned
From: Ebbie
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 11:13 PM

"Occasional reports of re-distribution of Native American artifacts (including Inuit, Aztec and Inca, etc) also surface." JohninKansas

That happens/has happened in Alaska much more than occasionally, John. In Alaska museums and collectors take the directive seriously. Many bones, relicts, robes and blankets, ceremonial rattles and drums and masks, and much more, have been returned to not only the Inuit but to Yu'piks, Aleuts, Tlingit, Athabascan, and Haida. Repatriation is not over yet. As the various tribes and races become aware of a particular item being held in the bowels of some entity and request its return, it will go through channels, and often very quickly, be handed over to the tribal elders.

Subject: RE: Antoine Carte painting looted by nazis returned
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 13 Feb 10 - 06:55 PM

An interesting exhibit in London:

Artists fake it up at London exhibition

Posted: Saturday, February 13, 2010 9:42 AM
Filed Under: London, England
By NBC News' Emily Wither

LONDON – At first glance, it looks like any typical art collection on display at London's famous Victoria and Albert Museum.
But what makes this exhibition unique is that all the featured artworks are fakes and most of the artists on display have served time in jail.

Curated by the Metropolitan Police, the exhibit showcases everything from forged works to the tools used to create them. The police hope the exhibit will raise awareness about art crimes and educate professionals, collectors and enthusiasts alike on what to keep an eye out for.

...

Due to popular demand the display's run has been extended for another two weeks. Myatt, for his part, said he's hoping to go visit next week, maybe he'll sign a few autographs of his own while he's down there.

The exhibit, titled "Fakes Frauds and Forgeries" runs through 21 Feb 2010 at the Victoria and Albert Museum, London. (scroll down to about 3d entry today) Admission free if you can make it.

One of the forgers says he intends to try to visit the exhibit "next week" and that he might be induced to "sign a few autographs." He indicates the forgeries for which he did time "weren't his best work," but the few samples at the two sites linked indicate pretty good workmanship, although not necessarily by him.

John