Origins: The Four Loom weavers

Subject: Origins: The Four Loom Weaver
From: Joe Offer
Date: 22 Mar 00 - 04:57 PM

Traditional Ballad Index entry:

Four-Loom Weaver, The

DESCRIPTION: Singer, a weaver, laments hard times -- his clothes are worn out, his furniture repossessed, his family starved and keeping alive by eating boiled nettles. His wife states that if she had clothes to wear she would go to London and confront the wealthy
AUTHOR: Joseph Lees (source: Elbourne)
EARLIEST DATE: before 1867 (broadside, Bodleian Firth b.27(270))
KEYWORDS: poverty unemployment weaving hardtimes starvation wife worker
FOUND IN: Britain(England(North))
REFERENCES (4 citations):
MacColl-ShuttleAndCage-IndustrialFolkBallads, pp. 4-5, "The Four Loom Weaver" (1 text, 1 tune)
DT, FOURLOOM*
ADDITIONAL: Roger Elbourne, Music and Tradition in Early Industrial Lancashire 1780-1840 (Totowa, 1980), pp. 79-83, 141-142, "Jone o' Grinfield"
ADDITIONAL: Jon Raven, _VIctoria's Inferno: Songs of the Old Mills, Mines, Manufacturies, Canals, and Railways_, Roadside Press, 1978, pp.128-131, "The Four Loom Weaver" (1 text, 1 tune)
Roud #937
RECORDINGS:
A. L. Lloyd, "The Poor Cotton Wayver" (on IronMuse1)
Ewan MacColl, "The Four Loom Weaver" (on Lomax41, LomaxCD1700, LomaxCD1741) (on IronMuse2)
BROADSIDES:
Bodleian, Firth b.27(270), "Joan o' Grinfield!" ("I'm a poor cotton weaver, as many a one knows"), J. Harkness (Preston), 1840-1866; also Harding B 11(1878), Harding B 20(80), "Joan O'Grinfield[!]"; Firth c.26(2), Firth c.26(177)[some words illegible], "Jone o' Grinfield"; 2806 c.17(197), "Joan o' Greenfield and Bailiffs"
CROSS-REFERENCES:
cf. "Tammy Traddlefeet" (subject)
ALTERNATE TITLES:
John o' Grinfelt
NOTES [413 words]: The period 1819-1820, following the Napoleonic Wars, brought unemployment and starvation to much of the English working class. - PJS
"Some years were better than others, but contemporaries unanimously agreed that weavers were worse off than any other group of workers. The years 1807-8, 1811-12, and 1816-21 were particularly severe, and in 1826 there were reports of near famine." (source: Roger Elbourne, Music and Tradition in Early Industrial Lancashire 1780-1840 (Totowa, 1980), p. 7.) - BS
According to MacColl-ShuttleAndCage-IndustrialFolkBallads, this is attributed to "John o' Greenfield." - RBW
Elbourne quotes Bamford, writing about "Jone o' Grinfield" in 1849. Elbourne discusses the candidates for author ("apparently Jone never existed") but it's never clear to me which broadside he is discussing since he also mentions another broadside (see Bodleian, 2806 c.16(70), "Jone o' Grinfilt" ("Says Jone to his wife on a wot summer's day"), J. Wheeler (Manchester), 1827-1847; also Harding B 25(1008), "Jone o'Greenfield's Ramble"; 2806 c.17(201), "Jone's Ramble"; Harding B 25(1007), "Jone's Ramble From Grenfelt to Owdham").
Bamford's informant, Joseph Coupe, a neighbor and possible co-creator of the "Joan O'Grinfilt" and his wife Margaret characters, said there were thirteen songs, the first of which was written early in the 19th century. See, for example, broadsides:
Bodleian, 2806 c.17(198), "Joan a' Gre'nfield's Journey to See the King" ("Says Joan o' Gre'nfield I'll tell you what, sirs"), G. Thompson (Liverpool), 1789-1820);
Bodleian, Harding B 16(118b), "Joan o' Grinfilt's Visit to Lunnun, to See What the State Doctor Intends to do for the Nation" ("Sed Joan eawt o' Grinfilt I've news for to tell "), unknown, no date;
Bodleian, Harding B 16(118c), "Joan o' Grinfilt's Visit to Mr. Fielden, with a Petition to the Queen to Fill Every Hungry Belly" ("Ses Joan o' Grinfilt I'll tell yo what Nan"), unknown, no date [but reference to "euwr young queen" makes the date no earlier than 1837];
Bodleian, Harding B 16(118c), "Jon o' Grinfield Turned Tee-totaler ("Says Joan out of Grinfield I feel very loam"), unknown, no date [but reference to Queen Victoria makes the date no earlier than 1837];
Bodleian, 2806 c.17(200), "Jone o' Greenfield Turned Stone Craker" ("Sez Jone eawt o' Grinfilt au tell thee whot Nan"), Swindells (Manchester), 1796-1853; also 2806 c.17(199), "Jone o' Greenfield's Lamentation" or "The Unfortunate Poverty Knockers"
- BS
Last updated in version 3.1
File: DTfourlo

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THE FOUR LOOM WEAVER (DT Lyrics)
(Becket Whitehead's version of The Poor Cotton Weaver)

I'm a four loom weaver, as many a man knows,
I've nowt to eat and I've worn out m' clothes
M' clogs are all broken, and stockings I've none.
Thee'd hardly gi's tuppence for all I've gotten on.

Old Billy O' Bent, he were telling us long
We mayn't had better times if I'd nobbut held m' tongue.
Well, I held m' tongue til I near lost m' breath,
And I feel in m' hear that I'II soon clem to death

I'm a four loom weaver, as many a man knows.
I've nowt to eat and I've worn out m' clothes.
Old Billy were right, but he ne'er were clemmed,
He ne'er picked o'er in his liie.

We held out for six weeks, thought each day were the last.
We tarried and shifted til we were quite fast.
We lived upon nettles while nettles were good.
And Waterloo Porridge were best to us (as) food.

Our Margaret declares, if hoo'd clothes to put on,
Hoo'd go up t' London and see the great man
And if things didn' alter when there hoo'd been
Hoo' swears hoo'd fight til there blood up to th' e'en.

I'm a four loom weaver as many a man knows.
I've nowt to eat and I've worn out m' clothes
Stockings I've none, nor looms to weave on,
I've woven m'sen to far end.

Note: clem - starve; hoo'd - she'd
Further Note: This is a subset (6 out of ten verses) of a 19th Century
broadside titled John O' Grinfield.
Recorded by Killen, Gallant Lads are We; also MacColl
@union @weaving @strike @work
filename[ FOURLOOM
TUNE FILE: FOURLOOM
CLICK TO PLAY
RG

Subject: Lyr Req: The Four Loom weavers
From: GUEST,Visitor
Date: 06 Aug 03 - 08:08 AM

Could any one let me have the lyrics for The Four Loom Weavers - or it could be called The poor Loom Weavers or Mary Barton- I have some of the words eg 'As many will know I've nought for to eat and I've pawned all my clothes, me clogs are......' I belive it's written in the Lncashire dialect but don't know who wrote it. I have tried Digitrad with no success.

Thanks in anticipation of someone getting back to me

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Four Loom weavers
From:
Date: 06 Aug 03 - 08:13 AM

Found this at Ewan McColl: Industrial Songs

The Four Loom Weavers

   One of the most dramatic of British Industrial songs, this ballad was first sung shortly after The Battle of Waterloo, when handloom weavers wages fell to a new low. That it was a great favourite for many years is evidenced by the great number of broadsheet prints issued under this and other titles. It is sometimes attributed to John o' Greenfield Junior, himself the character in a ppoular l9th century comic ballad. The version sung here was collected by EwanMacColl from Beckett Whtiehead of Delph, near Oldham, Lancashire.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Four Loom weavers
From: Watson
Date: 06 Aug 03 - 09:15 AM

It's in the DT

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Four Loom weavers
From: curmudgeon
Date: 06 Aug 03 - 11:44 AM

For a variant on this song, check out "The Poor Cotton Weaver." Lloyd recorded it on "The Iron Muse" and I seem to recall having heard Michael Cooney sing it also.

BTW, thanks for that great link George. I've already whiled away too much time there, but bookmarked it for future reference -- Tom

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Four Loom weavers
From: GUEST,Visitor
Date: 06 Aug 03 - 11:51 AM

Thanks for replies to my request for lyrics to Four Loom Weavers - Paricularly thanks to Watson - Got the lyrics now - Thanks again all

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Four Loom weavers
From:
Date: 06 Aug 03 - 02:01 PM

You're very welcome, Curmudgeon.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Four Loom weavers
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Aug 03 - 01:28 PM

Can someone tell me what waterloo porridge is ?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Four Loom weavers
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 08 Aug 03 - 02:00 PM

The onsite search engine is your friend. See this earlier discussion: what was waterloo porridge?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Four Loom weavers
From: greg stephens
Date: 08 Aug 03 - 02:01 PM

opinions differ on Waterloo porridge. i tend to the view that Waterloo was the name of a brand of some kind of oats based cattle food. which the poor could nick from farms and boil up and eat. There are other theories too, I dont think anyone knows for sure.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Four Loom weavers
From: Bernard
Date: 08 Aug 03 - 02:54 PM

My understanding of 'Waterloo Porridge' from my childhood (in Bolton, Lancashire) is stale bread and water (Corporation Pop!), hot or cold.

Not very substantial, but sometimes it was all our parents could afford.

I can still remember having bread and dripping for tea (evening meal). The dripping (usually from Sunday's beef) was kept in a metal basin with a lid that had a device like bent clock fingers to hold the lid down to prevent slugs and snails getting in...

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Four Loom weavers
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 08 Aug 03 - 04:36 PM

I provided that link so that we wouldn't have to go over all that ground again in a separate thread, but I suppose I should have known better...

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Four Loom weavers
From: greg stephens
Date: 08 Aug 03 - 05:16 PM

The links you provided, Malcolm, are interesting. The only one's I can read(some i cant get to) seem to be supposition and guesswork. Bernard's posting here is interesting, in that unlike all the guesses, he claims they actually used the phrase in his family.
   As the jury is out on this question, ongoing discussion seems fine to me.The threads can be combined later if necessary.

Subject: ADD Version: Four Loom Weaver
From: GUEST,Charles Macfarlane
Date: 10 Jan 25 - 07:04 AM

There is a good version of "Four Loom Weaver" on the Silly Sisters' (June Tabor & Maddy Prior) first eponymous album, which, BTW, is a truly excellent album, one of those rare creations where every track is good, and one which survived the vinyl clearout to be replaced by the CD. However, the CD sleeve notes were dire, nothing but an over-salivating gush about Maddy with barely a mention of June, and none of the useful information from the sleeve insert of the original vinyl, which accordingly I had to transcribe into a file. According to that, the lyrics they sing for "Four Loom Weaver" are as follows:

FOUR LOOM WEAVER

June & Maddy        vocals

I'm a four-loom weaver, as many a one knows;
I've nowt to eat and I've wore out my clothes;
My clogs are both broken and stockings I've none;
You'd ne'er give me tuppence for owt I've gotten on.

Old Billy O't Bent he kept telling me long,
We might have better times if I'd nobbut hold my tongue;
Well I've holden my tongue till I've near lost my breath,
And I feel in my own heart I'll soon clem to death.

I'm a four-loom weaver, as many a one knows;
I've nowt to eat and I've wore out my clothes;
Old Billy's all reet, but he never were clemmed,
And he never picked ower in his life!

We held on for six weeks, thought each day were the last;
We've tarried and shifted till now we're quite fast;
We lived upon nettles while nettles were good,
And Waterloo porridge was the best of our food.

I'm a four-loom weaver, as many a one knows;
I've nowt to eat and I've worn out my clothes;
My clogs are both broken, no looms to weave on,
And I've woven myself to far end.

Subject: RE: Origins: Hand-Loom Weaver's Lament
From: GUEST,Charles Macfarlane
Date: 10 Jan 25 - 07:38 AM

BTW, back in 2001 in this thread Matthew Edwards mentioned that the "Four Loom Weaver" is mentioned in Elizabeth Gaskell's excellent book "Mary Barton", and Malcolm Douglas replied mentioning trying to get a copy of it. Presumably by now he has done so, but for anyone else wishing to read it, all Gaskell's, the Brontës', Austen's, etc works are all at the rather cleverly-titled site Girlebooks ...

Girlebooks

... including Gaskell's "Mary Barton" ...

Mary Barton

Subject: RE: Origins: The Four Loom weavers
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 11 Jan 25 - 08:40 AM

As mentioned above Bert Lloyd sang Poor Cotton Weaver. That is essentially the same song, but to the Jon o' Grinfilt tune, with six-line verses rather than four-line. It is unclear (unless someone has definitive evidence) whether Becket Whitehead made the adaptation, someone else before him, or McColl after getting the original Poor Cotton Weaver from him. I recall some discussion of the relationship of the two versions but I can't find it. It may have been here on Mudcat or somewhere else.

Subject: RE: Origins: The Four Loom weavers
From: GUEST,George Stephens
Date: 13 Jan 25 - 01:26 AM

My wife Kathy ("kathwestra") and I recorded "Four Loom Weaver" on our Folk-Legacy CD "Birds Of Passage". In researching its origin, I ran across this note in the Oxford English Dictionary:

"When weaving was done on large steam powered looms, the standard to which weavers aspired was to operate four looms simultaneously; industry-wide, a weaver operated an average of 3.8 steam looms.”

For what its worth.

George