BS: Senate Seat for Sale

Subject: RE: BS: Senate Seat for Sale
From: Bobert
Date: 09 Dec 08 - 07:30 PM

I been thinkin' about this thing all day and, ya' know, there's something eerilly similar to these charges as to the ones brought against Bill Clinton over Monika Lewinski...

(What you smokin', Boberdz???)

No, hear me out... This guy has been under investigation for 5 years and all that they came up with after 5 years was stuff that occured over the last two weeks??? And only two charges??? Come on, folks, let get real here for just one minute... That makes 4 years, 11 months and 2 weeks worth of investigatin' and nothin"... I mean, Sunday-school teacher zip...

But these are yer tax dollars at work for 4 years, 11 months and two weeks and all those tax dollars down the drain... I mean, had I been in charge of the investigation I think after a year or tweo I'd call off the blood hounds...

But nevermind the fact that Bush and his buddy Gonzalez fired federal prosecutors who wouldn't hang in there for 4 years, 11 months and 2 weeks to try to dig somethin' up on a Democrat...

But lets even forget that...

Here's a guy who, yeah, got caught up in some funky sh*t that isn't even in the same league as the stuff that Bush and Cheney have done and fine, Fitzie, you caught one... Big fu*kin' deal... Here's a lollypop...

But why Fitzie had to go and say stuff like Lincoln rolluing in his grave and Illinois being the most corrupt state is so blatently partisan an' downright stupid and no one is calling him on it is beyond my belief...

I mean, almost 5 yeras of wiretaps and stings and God knows what else and Fitzie finally gets two friggin counts and now he wants to make some generalization about Illinois politics smacks of partisanship...

If this had been a Texas governor and a Dem appointed prosecutor had called Texaas the most corrupt state in the universe there would be death threats against that prosecutor...

I just think the entire episode, once we strip off the media spin, is just one big ahhh-hah, gotcha game that the Bush administration has pulled on the state from where Obama was a Senator and I think it is nuthin' more than more sour grapes by a defeated party...

But speakin' of parties, I'm sure that the Repubs are happy tonight...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Senate Seat for Sale
From: wysiwyg
Date: 09 Dec 08 - 07:31 PM

It's just Flatlander Psychosis. Or sociopathy.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Senate Seat for Sale
From: Rapparee
Date: 09 Dec 08 - 09:41 PM

Bobert, the man had a 13% approval rating in October. He's looted the Teachers' Retirement System even though he was backed by the teachers' union. In January he's facing an ethics inquiry by the State Legislature. He's a scumbag politician who doesn't know enough to maintain deniability, something every Precinct Captain in Chicago learns with their first breath. The reason he was elected the first time was because of the teachers' union backing and the second because he promised to do better for the schools (nobody, of course, got anything except his cronies).

I grew up there in Illinois and I've seen the politicians. Some of them you wash your hands immediately after meeting. This guy requires sandblasting.

You should hear what my brothers (who still live there and who are NOT Republicans) say about the man they and others call "Rod Sonuvabitch." I suspect that this is the top of a great big pile of, well, what you plow into the garden.

Subject: RE: BS: Senate Seat for Sale
From: Bobert
Date: 09 Dec 08 - 10:18 PM

Actually, Rap... I never heard of the guy until today... Yeah, he's prolly a real jerk...

I reckon after 8 years of Karl Rove I look at everything that happens in the political world as yet another attempt to slime the opposition party...

I'm still there...

It may take me a couple years to get it out of my system...

As long as the Repubs are in power I can only think that everything that goes wrong between now and Jan. 20 will be something that the Repubs orchrestrated to bring doubt upon Obama...

I don't understand why this guy had to make the Lincoln or the most corrupt state comments... That seemed to me to be partisan and uncalled for...

I mean, when the prosecutor busted Seriff Danny Pregraves here in my county on 22 felonies she didn't go beyond the facts of the case... No "Page County is the most corrupt"... No people turnin' over on graves...

IMO, that was over the top... That kinda stuff is the kinda stuff that sends the red flag up to me... It's the kinda stuff that we heard in the mad-dash-to-Iraq... It's emotional and meant to hit home...

I am tired of folks tryin' to manipulate me... Jst give me the facts without the theatrics and emotions... We've had way too much theatrics and emotions so when I see them I go to defualt in thinking that that person in front of the camera is trying sell me a bill of goods...

I'm ready for "just the facts" without the political overtones...

Might of fact, I am completely sick and tired of politics... Policies??? That is different... Politics??? They sick... So when I hear a federal prosecutor damning the entire state of Illinois it really pisses me off...

And it should everyone else who has had enough of Karl Rove...

End ot rant...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Senate Seat for Sale
From: GUEST,MarkS (on the road)
Date: 09 Dec 08 - 10:29 PM

Gosh all peanutbutter - how could such a thing happen?
I wouldn't know about such goings on. I'm from New Jersey.

Subject: RE: BS: Senate Seat for Sale
From: Genie
Date: 10 Dec 08 - 12:18 AM

dick greenhaus - PM
Date: 09 Dec 08 - 06:07 PM

I guess it's reassuring to see that, as far as corruption goes, there's no partisan politics. Crooks on both side of the aisle.

John in Kansas, I never said Bloggie was wiretapped without a warrant. I was just saying that since we know the Bushies don't NEED a warrant, it's DOUBLY stupid to invite your opponents or the authorities to listen in on your communications.

And, yes, I too regret that we " couldn't get to Cheney."

pdq: "All wiretaps in the past 8 years have been properly approved, as far as most people say. That cannot be said of of the previous 8 years."
Oh, really? As I understand it, current policy allows the Bush Justice Dept. to intercept snail mail, email, and phone calls WITHOUT authorization by a FISA court either before OR afterwards.

Bobert: "But nevermind the fact that Bush and his buddy Gonzalez fired federal prosecutors who wouldn't hang in there for 4 years, 11 months and 2 weeks to try to dig somethin' up on a Democrat."
Hey, Beau Bear, I think ya may be onto sump'n!

And yer right about this:
"They sick... So when I hear a federal prosecutor damning the entire state of Illinois it really pisses me off...

And it should everyone else who has had enough of Karl Rove."

Genie

Subject: RE: BS: Senate Seat for Sale
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 10 Dec 08 - 05:27 AM

Genie -

Apologies if I misread your intent. The slight ambiguity is one reason I didn't cite by post date/time back to your post. I intended to make my comment sufficiently vague to not point specifically to your post, but apparently I was insufficiently vague if it seemed that I did.

Of course we should all have lots of faith in orders from a court that meets in secret, whose members identities are secret, whose orders and deliberations/conclusions are secret, etc.

But we KNOW that someone's taking care of us.

(Court member IDs have been "leaked" a couple of times, but members are rotated frequently, and are often gone from the court before it's known who they might have been. Even when leaked, one is never sure if the info is, or was, credible. Members are picked/assigned by ... guess who(?))

John

Subject: RE: BS: Senate Seat for Sale
From: Teribus
Date: 10 Dec 08 - 07:50 AM

"...let me throw this out... Had the FBI, the IRS and the US Justice Department investigated Dick Cheney over the awarding of contracts to Halliburton then the indictments would sound just about the same, including all the bleepin' bleeps..." - Bobert.

I would throw that out too Bobert, as would "the FBI, the IRS and the US Justice Department". Much as though you would like to think that Dick Cheney awarded contracts to Halliburton - He, Dick Cheney did not.

Oh Bobert, while you're about it, on the awarding of contracts to Halliburton please tell us all if what is written below is true:

- In 1998 during the Clinton Administrations second term, Halliburton were awarded a five year Frame Agreement Service Contract with the Pentagon.

- That contract was awarded as the result of a "Competitive Tender" process.

Subject: RE: BS: Senate Seat for Sale
From: SINSULL
Date: 10 Dec 08 - 08:17 AM

I spent the night remembering Watergate - feel better now. Politicians have always been pigs. Except Ed Koch, the NYC mayor. He always said and did what he believed. It was a riot to watch.

Subject: RE: BS: Senate Seat for Sale
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Dec 08 - 08:33 AM

Competetive bid is ther operative term here, T...

Subject: RE: BS: Senate Seat for Sale
From: Riginslinger
Date: 10 Dec 08 - 10:01 AM

Fox News is desperately trying to link it all to Obama.

Subject: RE: BS: Senate Seat for Sale
From: Maryrrf
Date: 10 Dec 08 - 10:31 AM

I knew corruption existed but I was staggered by the brazeness of this one. What an arrogant SOB.

Subject: RE: BS: Senate Seat for Sale
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Dec 08 - 12:32 PM

As I understand it, the problem with this guy Blagojevich is that he too seems to have "said and did what he believed". Not a wise thing to do in the circumstances.

Subject: RE: BS: Senate Seat for Sale
From: JedMarum
Date: 10 Dec 08 - 01:05 PM

It's incredible to me that the news IS trying to link it to Obama! They just want headlines that'll sell. No wonder their readership is dropping like flies! Obama is on top of the world right now. Anyone with a lick of brain could see he wouldn't have touched this under any circumstances - didn't have anything to gain from doing so, and didn't have any need to do so - even if he was inclined to do that sort of thing (and there's nothing in his past to say he is inclined to such things).

I didn't vote for Obama but any fool can see he has no hand in this. It makes me angry that every time some idiot does something outrageous we have a chorus of media pundits trying to prove it is a systemic problem!

Blagojevich is bad apple. He may have infected a few others around him, but this is NOT the way all politicians work - and it's a damn good thing the prick got caught.

Subject: RE: BS: Senate Seat for Sale
From: Rapparee
Date: 10 Dec 08 - 01:20 PM

Unless Obama is quite, quite stupid -- and he's not -- there is nothing to link him to this. The "Senate Candidate 1" is presumed to be someone Obama appointed to another office -- it looks to me like Roddy boy is wriggling like mad in this and can't get free.

Hubris will do that to you.

Subject: RE: BS: Senate Seat for Sale
From: pdq
Date: 10 Dec 08 - 02:21 PM

Tuesday, December 09, 2008

...Ryan Lizza's piece in the New Yorker:

That year, (Obama) gained his first high-level experience in a statewide campaign when he advised the victorious gubernatorial candidate Rod Blagojevich, another politician with a funny name and a message of reform. Rahm Emanuel, a congressman from Chicago and a friend of Obama's, told me that he, Obama, David Wilhelm, who was Blagojevich's campaign co-chair, and another Blagojevich aide were the top strategists of Blagojevich's victory. He and Obama "participated in a small group that met weekly when Rod was running for governor," Emanuel said. "We basically laid out the general election, Barack and I and these two." A spokesman for Blagojevich confirmed Emanuel's account, although David Wilhelm, who now works for Obama, said that Emanuel had overstated Obama's role. "There was an advisory council that was inclusive of Rahm and Barack but not limited to them," Wilhelm said, and he disputed the notion that Obama was "an architect or one of the principal strategists."

Subject: RE: BS: Senate Seat for Sale
From: Genie
Date: 10 Dec 08 - 02:26 PM

Even if Obama helped advise and plan Blagojevich's gubernatorial campaign strategy -- which I don't think would be unusual, as members of the Illinois Democratic party -- that would in no way suggest that Obama was party to any of Blagojevich's corrupt actions as governor (or even as a candidate).

Subject: RE: BS: Senate Seat for Sale
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Dec 08 - 02:53 PM

I guess that no one else finds it the slight bit curious that this guy has been under investigation for, what, 4 years and it's only stuff that he's done very recently that brought charges against him???

I'd be willing to bet that every Democratic governor has also been under investigation for the last 4 years...

Yeah, the Repubs hate to lose and they don't do it very well... This was their early Christmas present but I don't think they are finished with the mischief yet...

I mean, lets get real... This is exactly what they did with Bill Clinton, too... Investigate, invetsigate and investigate and if it weren't for some boneheaded things on his part the Repubs would have come up empty...

With all the real crime that is out there I find it incrdulous that taxpayers money was being spent month and month after month after month adding up to well over 3 years of investigating without someone sayin', "Hey, ain't nuthin' here" and shut doen the investigation...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Senate Seat for Sale
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Dec 08 - 03:35 PM

When I read the title, I mistook it for a Canadian Senate seat (we have 14 or so vacant). I thought, now that's a good idea, sell it on EBay. It could be an alternative political party funding route.

Subject: BS: Senate Seat for Sale
From: Genie
Date: 10 Dec 08 - 03:37 PM

Yeah, Bobert, I find the timing rather convenient too. And I too wonder if Republicans are being investigated as diligently as Democrats are (though I think Fitzgerald himself is pretty non-partisan).   The Dems in Congress, though, seemingly are still sticking to the "let's move on, let's "work across the aisle," and let's not get bogged down with distractions like investigating Republican corruption" strategy. Problem is, when your side takes that tack and the other side's perpetually out for blood, your side's corrupt politics either get exposed more often or get more media attention or both.

In this case, though, I think the Democrats may have pushed as hard as the Republicans for Blagojevich to be indicted now.   I don't think they wanted him to appoint a tainted Democratic senator and then later have both be exposed.   They want the Senate seat but they don't want that Senate appointee to be exposed as corrupt after s/he has been seated.

I also think that the Democrats are a lot like cats when it comes to being herded. Today's Republican Party seems to have a stronger hold on the reins of their members than the Democratic Party has on theirs. The Republicans/neocons/"conservatives" also have a huge, powerful echo chamber in the corporate media consortium.   So when Republicans are exposed as corrupt - even indicted, convicted, etc. - there seem to be all sorts of voices on radio and TV and within the party coming to their defense.   Ted Stevens was almost re-elected to the Senate despite being convicted of corruption. William Jefferson was soundly defeated for re-election to the House after being indicted for that money found in his freezer - and that House seat hasn't been won by a Republican in a long time, until now.
The liberal and progressive talk shows are being as tough on Blagojevich as they ever were on Stevens or Libby or Abramhoff (sp?), etc.   And I don't hear other Democratic politicians condoning Blagojevich's actions or supporting him. They want him out.

Subject: RE: BS: Senate Seat for Sale
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 10 Dec 08 - 03:46 PM

" I guess that no one else finds it the slight bit curious that this guy has been under investigation for, what, 4 years and it's only stuff that he's done very recently that brought charges against him??? "

Obama helped push for an ethics reform bill in Illinois (yes, he was paying some attention to his home state during the campaign)which was to put curbs on campaign contributions.   The Gov., seeing that his funds would dry up, started to push for "donations" before the reforms took effect. People started talking, the feds started investigating, and guess what they found!

Subject: RE: BS: Senate Seat for Sale
From: GUEST,Congressional staffer
Date: 10 Dec 08 - 03:55 PM

One thing to take away from all this...

Government is Government but the Banks OWN it all.
Don't F around with the Bank of America or you bleeping bleeps are bleeped.

In other words; Don't give the public a view of organized legitimate dissent against the Banks, or the Banks will organize against you.

In the real world the rhetoric that we have heard, bleeped to death, is not unusual. What would be unusual is if money, instead of "favors" were actually exchanged for the Senate seat.
There is no claim or proof that any money or promises were made for the seat.

When Presidents are mere pawns to owners of Big Banks, a Govenor is just dust in the wind.

Subject: RE: BS: Senate Seat for Sale
From: Rapparee
Date: 10 Dec 08 - 04:01 PM

First of all, where I in Fitzgerald's place I'd do exactly what he did: arrest Roddy and try to stop him from selling a seat in the Senate or worse, taking it himself. This isn't politics, it's good law enforcement.

Secondly, Roddy started out as a reform candidate following the Ryan governorship and God knows, Illinois needed reform after that! He did okay for the first couple of years and then power corrupted.

Thirdly, trying to link Obama to Roddy's sins is kinda like linking me to the Director of the University library: I know her, we work together, and that's about it. People working in a job tend to know others working at their same level; it in no way means that they are somehow connected in unsavory matters.

Subject: RE: BS: Senate Seat for Sale
From: Donuel
Date: 10 Dec 08 - 04:10 PM

Reform has come to mean "this time we promise not to get caught"

Subject: RE: BS: Senate Seat for Sale
From: Genie
Date: 10 Dec 08 - 04:13 PM

You're right, Ron, and that's an important factor. Blagojevich did rev up his efforts to line his pockets before the new reforms went into effect on Jan. 1, and that in itself probably hastened is being exposed for corruption.

I actually think Blagojevich is not just extremely corrupt but also mentally unstable - perhaps even delusional.    Not unlike Nixon.   Somehow he convinced himself that he could not only shake down contract bidders, current office holders and would-be office holders in exchange for designated funds, appointments, etc., but that he could talk openly about this stuff on the phone while inviting both legal and illegal eavesdropping and wire taps.   Pretty crazy, IMO.

Did he, like Nixon, think that because he was acting as a chief executive whatever he did was legal?

Subject: RE: BS: Senate Seat for Sale
From: SINSULL
Date: 10 Dec 08 - 04:16 PM

The timing looks right to me. He was about to sell off a seat in the Senate and going public was the only way to stop it.

Subject: RE: BS: Senate Seat for Sale
From: pdq
Date: 10 Dec 08 - 04:16 PM

"First of all, where I in Fitzgerald's place I'd do exactly what he did: arrest Roddy and try to stop him from selling a seat..."

Actually, by arresting him immediatly, before he could "sell" the Senate seat, Fitzgerald prevented gov. Blagojevich from committing a crime. Now, it can be said that he "just thinking about it", which is not a crime.

This allows the governor to step down and say he is sorry and go home a free man. Much less damage to the party that way.

Subject: RE: BS: Senate Seat for Sale
From: Genie
Date: 10 Dec 08 - 04:24 PM

I'm not sure he's off the hook.   If there's clear evidence that he solicited bribes (e.g., asked for an offer of money or goods in exchange for an appointment or a government contract), I believe that in itself is a crime.

Subject: RE: BS: Senate Seat for Sale
From: Rapparee
Date: 10 Dec 08 - 04:31 PM

There's also the matter of conspiracy...remember that Roddy isn't along in the warrant. Roddy is taking all the heat, but John (I think it's John) Harris is also named. I'm pretty sure it's not BOB Harris....

Subject: RE: BS: Senate Seat for Sale
From: Donuel
Date: 10 Dec 08 - 04:33 PM

Govenor Blagojevich whose head inspired the animated TV cartoon 'Jimmy Neutron' and whose political rise to power inspired 'Omen III', is going to be prevented from legally selecting himself for the Senate Seat by a new law to be passed by the Illinois Legislature.

Obama will be relieved to have Blago not sully his administration with Chicago political machine shenanigans.

Too bad Jesse Jackson Jr. is being connected to Blago as the secret candidate #5. Lets hope this doesn't become a witch trial by insinuation that destroys good people by rumor.

Subject: RE: BS: Senate Seat for Sale
From: Genie
Date: 10 Dec 08 - 04:40 PM

I agree, Donuel. Let's hope nobody gets permanently tainted just by insinuation or accusation (as the Republicans tried so hard to do to Obama throughout the Presidential campaign).


Here's an interesting NY Times article:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/10/us/politics/10chicago.html?_r=1&nl=pol&emc=pola1&pagewanted=print.

December 10, 2008
Obama's Effort on Ethics Bill Had Role in Governor's Fall

By MIKE McINTIRE and JEFF ZELENY
In a sequence of events that neatly captures the contradictions of Barack Obama's rise through Illinois politics, a phone call he made three months ago to urge passage of a state ethics bill indirectly contributed to the downfall of a fellow Democrat he twice supported, Gov. Rod R. Blagojevich.

Mr. Obama placed the call to his political mentor, Emil Jones Jr., president of the Illinois Senate. Mr. Jones was a critic of the legislation, which sought to curb the influence of money in politics, as was Mr. Blagojevich, who had vetoed it. But after the call from Mr. Obama, the Senate overrode the veto, prompting the governor to press state contractors for campaign contributions before the law's restrictions could take effect on Jan. 1, prosecutors say.

Tipped off to Mr. Blagojevich's efforts, federal agents obtained wiretaps for his phones and eventually overheard what they say was scheming by the governor to profit from his appointment of a successor to the United States Senate seat being vacated by President-elect Obama. One official whose name has long been mentioned in Chicago political circles as a potential successor is Mr. Jones, a machine politician who was viewed as a roadblock to ethics reform but is friendly with Mr. Obama.

Beyond the irony of its outcome, Mr. Obama's unusual decision to inject himself into a statewide issue during the height of his presidential campaign was a reminder that despite his historic ascendancy to the White House, he has never quite escaped the murky and insular world of Illinois politics. It is a world he has long navigated, to the consternation of his critics, by engaging in a kind of realpolitik, Chicago-style, which allowed him to draw strength from his relationships with important players without becoming compromised by their many weaknesses.

By the time Mr. Obama intervened on the ethics measure, his relationship with Mr. Blagojevich, always defined more by political proximity than by personal chemistry, had cooled as the governor became increasingly engulfed in legal troubles. There is nothing in the criminal complaint unsealed Tuesday to indicate that Mr. Obama knew anything about plans to seek money and favors in exchange for his Senate seat; he has never been implicated in any other "pay to play" cases that have emerged from the long-running investigation of the Blagojevich administration.

But like those previous cases, this latest one features political characters who figure in various stages of Mr. Obama's climb from little-known state senator to presidential candidate, and who have since become politically radioactive because of corruption scandals. Some of those relationships posed a threat to Mr. Obama during the presidential campaign, forcing him to return tens of thousands of dollars in tainted campaign contributions and providing fodder for attack ads by rival candidates.

Though extreme examples, they were emblematic of the path cut by Mr. Obama through Chicago politics, where he became known for making alliances of convenience with personalities that seemed antithetical to his self-image as a progressive reformer. His political roots were in the left-leaning neighborhood of Hyde Park, but at key moments in his career he did not hesitate to form relationships with politicians who were fixtures of the Democratic machine.

When he ran for the United States Senate in 2004, he aggressively courted Mr. Jones, a sewer inspector turned legislator who had clawed his way up through ward politics and was viewed as something of a kingmaker in the Illinois Democratic Party. He also formed a good working relationship with Mayor Richard M. Daley of Chicago, a symbol of establishment politics with whom Mr. Obama had never been close.

Mr. Obama was an adviser to Mr. Blagojevich's first campaign for governor, in 2002, and endorsed him again in 2006, even though by that time questions had been raised about the possible selling of state jobs. Mr. Obama has also credited one of Mr. Blagojevich's closest confidants, Antoin Rezko, a businessman who was convicted of corruption charges this year, with helping him get his own start in politics.

Mr. Rezko was among the first to contribute to Mr. Obama's earliest State Senate race, in 1995, and later became a major fund-raiser for his campaign for the United States Senate. Mr. Rezko was known around Chicago as a collector of politicians, and he did not hesitate to make the most of his high-level contacts. The New York Times reported last year that when he was entertaining Middle Eastern financiers at a Four Seasons hotel in Chicago, he arranged for Mr. Blagojevich and Mr. Obama to drop by, separately and on different occasions, to impress his guests.

Mr. Rezko derived his political influence mainly from his close relationship with Mr. Blagojevich, who relied on him to recommend loyal campaign contributors for state appointments to boards and commissions, according to the complaint unsealed on Tuesday. But as Mr. Rezko's legal troubles escalated, Illinois politicians who had previously found him useful, including Mr. Obama, disavowed him and started returning his campaign donations.

Mr. Obama's relationship with Mr. Blagojevich was not much better when he made the decision to call Mr. Jones in September about the stalled ethics bill. For Mr. Obama, the move marked an unusual return to Illinois politics, turf from which he had studiously worked to distance himself throughout the presidential race. At the time, one week before the first presidential debate of the general election campaign, Republicans were trying to tarnish him in the eyes of voters by attempting to link him to Chicago's history of corrupt politics.

Mr. Obama used leverage that he had seldom employed — publicly, anyway — and strongly urged Mr. Jones to bypass Mr. Blagojevich and approve the ethics bill, banning the so-called pay-for-play system of influence peddling in Illinois. When asked at the time how Mr. Obama had come to be involved, Mr. Jones replied, "He's a friend."

When the Illinois Senate passed the measure by 55 to 0 on Sept. 22, with Mr. Jones reversing his position, Mr. Obama praised the move as one creating "a tougher ethics law that will reduce the influence of money over our state's political process." Mr. Obama's intervention deepened a rift between him and Mr. Blagojevich that had been growing for some time.

When Mr. Blagojevich left Congress in 2002, he talked openly about the notion of running for president one day. After he was elected governor, and after Senator John Kerry lost the presidential race in 2004, he began eyeing a potential run in 2008.

It was short-lived. The federal corruption investigation that eventually led to Mr. Rezko's indictment, and Tuesday's charges against Mr. Blagojevich, had already begun to taint the governor's administration. And by 2006, Mr. Obama had eclipsed the governor as a plausible national candidate, dashing his presidential aspirations.

The criminal complaint unsealed Tuesday underscored the acrimony between the two men. Recorded telephone calls showed Mr. Blagojevich being far less than respectful when discussing the president-elect and voicing frustration at his inability to advance beyond the governor's office.

"If I don't get what I want and I'm not satisfied with it, then I'll just take the Senate seat myself," the governor said, according to the criminal complaint. Later, he said the Senate seat was a "valuable thing — you just don't give it away for nothing."

Meanwhile, Mr. Blagojevich was busily trying to shake loose up to $2.5 million in campaign donations, much of it from contributors with business before the state, according to federal prosecutors. The governor's goal was to bring in the money before the end of the year, the complaint said, "before a new state ethics law goes into effect on Jan. 1, 2009."

Subject: RE: BS: Senate Seat for Sale
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 10 Dec 08 - 05:15 PM

I guess that no one else finds it the slight bit curious that this guy has been under investigation for, what, 4 years and it's only stuff that he's done very recently that brought charges against him???

Seems very possible to me that the wheels of the gods were grinding slowly, but along came this, and they had to move quickly, lest he got a price he liked and appointed whoever bribed him.

Another thought: I understand that it's only recently that they had probable cause to plant a bug in his headquarters and tape his home phone. Those operations brought this forward, in an unmistakable way that gelled the overall investigation and made it ready for indictment.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Senate Seat for Sale
From: Riginslinger
Date: 10 Dec 08 - 05:20 PM

Bobert could be right. It could be that all the Democratic governors were under investigation so that uncovered information could be made public when it would do the most damage.

                     Also, I thought it had been confirmed that candidate #5 offered half-a-million for the seat, but that Blagojevich had countered with a million.

Subject: RE: BS: Senate Seat for Sale
From: Genie
Date: 10 Dec 08 - 05:42 PM

I don't think anything's really been confirmed about "Candidate #5." I think all they have on that is Blago's allegation.

Subject: RE: BS: Senate Seat for Sale
From: JedMarum
Date: 10 Dec 08 - 06:07 PM

Candidate #5 is fool for playing along - but I don't suppose he/she is anywhere near as guilty as the scum-bag offering to sell the Senate seat.

This is really and truly abhorrent to me, as I am sure it is all of us. Neither party has a lock on bad actors - and this is truly one of the most egregious of transgressions, it seems to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Senate Seat for Sale
From: pdq
Date: 10 Dec 08 - 06:24 PM

"Candidate #5" is Jesse Jackson, Jr.

Subject: RE: BS: Senate Seat for Sale
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Dec 08 - 06:25 PM

I think the liberal talk show should re-examine their stance... Hey, not that this guy needs defending, mind you but no one is pointing out the 3 year, 11 month long empty investigation... The linerals are just content to move on... I'm not... If we can dig emepty hole after empty hole on an Illinios governor why can'r we so much as scratch the ground over how Halliburton got those billions and billions without having to bid...

Teribus would have us bvelieve that those contracts could only be preformed by Halliburton but that is just not true... Anyone can build a school or cook or drive a truck... Ain't rocket science... None of it was rocket science...

Yeah, the liberals are playing way to nice...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Senate Seat for Sale
From: Rapparee
Date: 10 Dec 08 - 06:31 PM

Bobert, believe me: they have stuff on this guy going back 3 years and 11 months. I know this because my brother told me -- I can't tell you WHY or HOW he knows but he does and it will all be coming out soon. Let's just say that he's in a position to know what's been going on.

Subject: RE: BS: Senate Seat for Sale
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Dec 08 - 06:40 PM

That last post by Rapaire makes it sound like an urban legend...

Subject: RE: BS: Senate Seat for Sale
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Dec 08 - 06:45 PM

Well then, Rap, then let's have at it... I mean, if yer brother-in-law knows stuff then you can bet that lotta folks know stuff and if that's the case then the stuff outta come oozing thru the cracks any minute noe 'cause that is the way human nature is... People love to talk and leak stuff so tell bro to give it up here in Mudville...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Senate Seat for Sale
From: Genie
Date: 10 Dec 08 - 07:27 PM

I agree, Bobert.

Aren't no-bid contracts and jobs in the federal govt. handed out to your campaign contributors and supporters also bribery, even if it's not strictly illegal?   The Bush administration has handed out all sorts of favors involving big money to lots of people just for helping him get elected and get his agenda through.

This hardly excuses a jerk like Blagojevich, but our system of campaign finance is an open invitation to tainted politics and corruption.

Subject: RE: BS: Senate Seat for Sale
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Dec 08 - 08:22 PM

No, Genie, I don't condone what the Blagman did but, hey, I think if folks would listen to the LBJ tapes, or even the Nixon tapes, that this is politics in America... Is it corrupt???... Well, heck yeah, it is... But this is the way stuff is done... I'm sure the Givernor was absolutely dumbfounded when he was arrested becuase he was just doin' in American style...

I hate to see sacrifical lambs... Either kill 'um all or nuthin'... Every governor in this country has had conversations that if wiretaped wouldn't llok too good...

Like I say, I ain't condonin' Blagster's behavior but given the levl of corruption in governemnt I think it pales in comparision to the crap we've seen for the last 8 years... BTW, most of that crap will never be investigated... Never...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Senate Seat for Sale
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 03:34 AM

From: SINSULL
Date: 09 Dec 08 - 11:47 AM

I can honestly say that I never suspected that such corruption is possible. How do these people sleep at night?

You didn't????!!!!!???!!..(Happens all the time)..just a little slicker! I'm wondering how anyone sleeps at night, knowing such naivete, abounds in such large groups of people..who didn't think our government ON ALL LEVELS, is 'less than corrupt'!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Senate Seat for Sale
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 11:27 AM

"Teribus would have us bvelieve that those contracts could only be preformed by Halliburton" - Bobert

Now just when did I ever say that Bobert.

What I have said is that in 1998 Halliburton put in a Tender/Bid for a five year Service Contract in competition against others. Halliburton won that Contract against its main rivals, within the 5 year period, when work came up that fell into the scope of the services contract it automatically went to the company who had won the services contract in 1998. Not rocket science at all Bobert, and what's more all perfectly legal and above board.

Subject: RE: BS: Senate Seat for Sale
From: Genie
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 12:18 PM

But, Teribus, our feds do continue to hand out no-bid contracts.   Not all the work given to Halliburton (etc.) is just an extension of already-existing contracts.

And even if a policy is fully legal and above board, it doesn't necessarily mean it's sensible, just, or effective.   Say a company submits the best bid for rebuilding a bridge and even does a decent job on that project.   Automatically handing over all other such projects (not to mention totally different kinds of projects) to that company for several more years on a no-bid basis is an unwise practice and one wildly open to abuse.

Subject: RE: BS: Senate Seat for Sale
From: SINSULL
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 12:26 PM

GFS - it was a momentary lapse. I spent the evening reviewing Watergate and Abscam and assorted horrors and came to my senses.

Subject: RE: BS: Senate Seat for Sale
From: Rapparee
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 12:44 PM

Gee, and here I've been thinking about the Vatican and the Reformation....

Subject: RE: BS: Senate Seat for Sale
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 06:14 PM

"And even if a policy is fully legal and above board, it doesn't necessarily mean it's sensible, just, or effective.   Say a company submits the best bid for rebuilding a bridge and even does a decent job on that project.   Automatically handing over all other such projects (not to mention totally different kinds of projects) to that company for several more years on a no-bid basis is an unwise practice and one wildly open to abuse." - Genie

Now the Government Departments requiring this work to be done takes your advice Genie and puts the next job for the US Military out in Iraq or Afghanistan out for Competitive Tender. You have say four bidders:

Contractor A - Did the last bit of work there, already has all security vetting of personnel and clearances in place, has plant and personnel on site, or at least in the area, are fully familiar with operating routines and systems.

Contractors B; C & D - Fully capable of doing the work, all personnel have to go through security vetting to get required clearances, all their plant and equipment must be hired locally or transported to site, once on site they must allow time for aclimatisation and familiarisation with operating routines and systems.

Now all those facets of the job are cost items that have to factored into the bids - You tell me which contractor is best placed to put in the most attractive bid in terms of cost; effectiveness; degree of comfort to the Client. My money would be on Contractor A.

Subject: RE: BS: Senate Seat for Sale
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 06:33 PM

I think when it was discovered that Halliburton was trying to cheat US that that should have been grounds, if for no other reason, to demote them from no-bid to bid... Also, T, I disagree that "legal" and "above board" are one of the same... Presenting contracts to the Dick Cheney's company, which BTW was still paying him at the timwe the contracts were *given*, might have techincally been legal but above board??? Hardly... It reeked of corruption... I brought this up at the tinme and got purdy much the same "proclamations" from you then as we are getting now... There are more than one reason why Dick Cheney';s approval ratings are even worse than Bush's and this little ball-game that has going with Halliburton is a big factor in his low approval ratings...

I realy don't see that this Governor is in the same league with either Dick Cheney or George Bush when it comes to corruption...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Senate Seat for Sale
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 06:34 PM

And further more...

...100...

B~