MySpace policies - ?

Subject: RE: MySpace policies - ?
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 12 Jun 06 - 07:13 AM

Same old, same old Diane (coutness). You can throw whatever insults you want to. I just want a specific answer to the question above about snippets of music etc.

You've no idea what is happening in Myspace or of the community in there, not just folk, but 'world'.

And 'GUEST' if you're too cowardly to hurl verbal daggers under your own name....then please, don't expect me to read them.

As I stated above, I'd say to get behind Billy Bragg...and...because of the magic of Myspace, here IS Billy's page, where you can read not only his Blogs, but also many replies from other Myspacers and from Billy himself.

Heck!...you could all even get your own pages and rush over there to communicate with Billy personally.

http://www.myspace.com/billybragg

Subject: RE: MySpace policies - ?
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 12 Jun 06 - 07:13 AM

...or even...(countess)...Woops!

Subject: RE: MySpace policies - ?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 12 Jun 06 - 07:33 AM

I'm insulting Murdoch. It may be the same old but I've been doing it for a very long time, I do know what I'm talking about and I know as much about what's happening on MySpace now as I did about what was occurring on the Sunday Times then. LC on the other hand has clearly absolutely no idea what she's talking about and is insulting my friends. I'm telling her to stop it. I don't think I'm alone in wanting that.

Subject: RE: MySpace policies - ?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 12 Jun 06 - 07:43 AM

Sorry Lizzie, I started off accidentaly posting my first 2 posts in this thread without a name and then continued as anon rather than correcting what was a genuine mistake on my part - I shouldn't have done that.

I am Jon Freeman, my posts are 10/6: 4:20AM, 3:21pm - 11/6 10:21am - 12/6 5:26am, 6:30am. And I do think you are a troll and a handicap to any reasonable attempts at discussion.

Subject: RE: MySpace policies - ?
From: GUEST,Russells goat
Date: 12 Jun 06 - 08:00 AM

Not everyone agrees with Billy,

http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendID=81619316&blogID=130719844&MyToken=c27802ce-7a42-49e8-8b0d-ac0517

Subject: RE: MySpace policies - ?
From: John Hernandez
Date: 12 Jun 06 - 08:28 AM

Yes, not everyone agrees with Billy Bragg. But the blogger cited above, in addition to saying some harsh words about Bragg, calls MySpace, "the church at which my cultists gather." Well, MySpace is not a church, even for cultists. It is a commercial enterprise, and its sole purpose is to enrich Murdoch and his News International Corporation. The Terms and Conditions may not be a plot aimed at Bragg in particular, but they are completely one-sided in favor of the corporation. That should be expected since they were drawn up by lawyers for only one side.

Subject: RE: MySpace policies - ?
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 12 Jun 06 - 08:34 AM

What a great shame you feel that way Jon, but it is your freedom to think that way. Nothing else to say to you I'm afraid, except that I hope you're feeling better.

I've just been on Azizi's thread about African music, it's really interesting. I put the Myspace link to Ayub Ogada's beautiful music on there, I'd never heard of Ayub until I went into Myspace. We now have his CD and we'll be looking out for his next one as soon as it comes out. Utterly stunning music...and guess what? Azizi loves it as well....and Ayub's page is now whizzing it's way around Azizi's friends as well, on the other side of the world.

Here IS Ayub:
http://www.myspace.com/ayubogada

It is truly amazing.

Lizzie :0)

Subject: RE: MySpace policies - ?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 12 Jun 06 - 08:37 AM

And the website said blog appears on? One, two, threeeeeeeeee - it's - MYSPAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACE !!!!!!!

What a surprise.

I don't take seriously any anonymous post that begins         

"Get your claws, with the filth inches thick under the finger nails, back in you glorified busking hobo. Put down your well thumbed copy of Das Capital and engage your brain for a second or two. You've got problems with myspace, the church at which my cultists gather..."

and deteriorates from there.

Subject: RE: MySpace policies - ?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Jun 06 - 08:57 AM

Anyway I read somewhere they censor their blogs. You write something they dont like & off it comes. So anything you read there is one-sided anyway

Subject: RE: MySpace policies - ?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 12 Jun 06 - 09:00 AM

Hmmmmm. Those of a nasty, suspicious nature could even begin to wonder whether that un-named flamer was someone from MySpace? Trying to insult a protester by calling them a commie is usually a dead giveaway...

Subject: RE: MySpace policies - ?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 12 Jun 06 - 09:11 AM

I tried to complain about that poster using the word 'fart' and they insisted on knowing who I was.

Sounds like a Commie Plot to me... wait on, Murdoch, OK, Fascist Plot, then...

Subject: RE: MySpace policies - ?
From: John Hernandez
Date: 12 Jun 06 - 09:40 AM

"What a great shame you feel that way Jon, [sic] but it is your freedom to think that way. Nothing else to say to you I'm afraid, except that I hope you're feeling better." Wow, what did I write that someone is concerned about my health? My point is that the Terms and Conditions offered by MySpace are completely one-sided because they were drawn up by lawyers for only one side. I work for a general contractor and I know when contracts are drawn up by only one side they are always one-sided. When contracts are drawn up in negotiations by lawyers from both sides they are always more equitable. That's not a choice MySpace offers.

Subject: RE: MySpace policies - ?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 12 Jun 06 - 09:41 AM

The open letter to Billy Bragg in the MySpace blog appears to have been written by the same Guest who posted the link to it here, one Russell Brand (who mentions his goat in his own subtext). Interesting profile he's got (not sure if he's taking the piss or not, Gawd I hope so):

http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendID=816193

Subject: RE: MySpace policies - ?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 12 Jun 06 - 09:42 AM

It was not to you John, it was to me (Jon).

Subject: RE: MySpace policies - ?
From: JedMarum
Date: 12 Jun 06 - 10:21 AM

I just don't see any dangers. I cannot loose my intellectual property. I have agreed not to hold Myspace resonsible for any royalty fees for distribution of my music (words or photos) through their site and I have guaranteed that I own the rights to music (pics and thoughts) I put there (or that the music is in the public domain). These are all reasonable things to me.

A quick look at Mypspace members shows that the Mypsace contract has passed the legal scrutiny for these folks, American folk/bluegrassers: Tim O'Brien , Willie Nelson, Gillian Welch, Dolly Parton, Reba McEntire, Doc Watson, Tony Rice

And for these Celtic performers:
Lunasa , Altan, The Chieftains, David Francey, Alasdair Fraser, Natalie Haas, Rachel Hair, Tommy Makem, Battlefield Band

These are just my friends or my Myspace freinds. There are many many other professional musicians who've agreed to put up their music - and there are thousands of semi-pro and amatuers as well.

What would Myspace gain by getting into an ugly distribution rights issue with me, with Dolly Parton, with Tommy Makem or with a class action suit by all of us? Would they really risk all by a dodgey intellectual rights issue for the SALE of music for any of us?

They may be evil, but they're not stupid. It is in their best interest, to take advantage of the "pull power" of our music to their site, so they can sell advertizing. That is their obvious motive - and that's OK with me.

That is obviously OK with many many other artists.

Subject: RE: MySpace policies - ?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Jun 06 - 02:42 PM

Hello Lizzie, I'm a lawyer, read my lips.

Jed, sorry, but you only retain non-exclusive rights to whatever you put on Myspace. So you do lose your intellectual property rights. You lose joint ownership in them to Rupie.

And do you think Rupie is scared of a lawsuit, no matter from whom? They are his hobby!

Read the contract before signing it. If it is not fair to you don't sign it.

Subject: RE: MySpace policies - ?
From: JedMarum
Date: 12 Jun 06 - 03:21 PM

do you really believe Myspace will attempt to claim royalties or mechanical license fees for my music?

Subject: RE: MySpace policies - ?
From: Anne Lister
Date: 12 Jun 06 - 03:34 PM

Whether or not RM wants proceedings to be legal under State of California legislation I think he or his minions would have a hard time claiming any form of ownership of my songs (other than the low fi recorded samples) on the words of his T&C.
At any rate I will email MySpace and raise my objections and see what happens next.

I'll keep you all posted.

Anne

Subject: RE: MySpace policies - ?
From: Anne Lister
Date: 12 Jun 06 - 03:45 PM

OK - this is what I've sent to Customer Services:

I am concerned about the Terms and Conditions of MySpace, following the public withdrawal of Billy Bragg. I hadn't realised that the assumption by MySpace of rights over my intellectual property and recording would be so complete, and that in agreeing to waive my own royalties I appear to have given carte blanche to MySpace to take over my material.   Can you let me know whether there are any plans to re-word the agreement to reduce this assumption of control? If not, I will regretfully have to cancel my participation in the whole procedure. I'm an independent songwriter and have always been careful to avoid allowing anyone else any rights over my material.
I'd appreciate a prompt reply.

As I said, I'll keep you all posted!

Anne

Subject: RE: MySpace policies - ?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Jun 06 - 03:49 PM

Richard does this mean they still can hold on to your rights even after you've ended your MySpace agreement? And that they'll take a hunk of your pie but YOU pay all the fees and royalties even if it arises out of some action of theirs? I'm not sure if I understand the last sentence right. And what exactly does non-exclusive mean in legal talk? Fully-paid WHAT? Sorry I find this confusing

Term. This Agreement shall remain in full force and effect while you use the Services or are a Member. You may terminate your Membership at any time, for any reason. MySpace.com may terminate your Membership at any time, without warning. Even after Membership is terminated, this Agreement will remain in effect, including sections 5-17.

EVEN AFTER MEMBERSHIP IS TERMINATED, THIS AGREEMENT WILL REMAIN IN EFFECT, INCLUDING SECTIONS 5-17

And guess what number 6 is:

6. Proprietary Rights in Content on MySpace.com.
By displaying or publishing ("posting") any Content, messages, text, files, images, photos, video, sounds, profiles, works of authorship, or any other materials (collectively, "Content") on or through the Services, you hereby grant to MySpace.com, a non-exclusive, fully-paid and royalty-free, worldwide license (with the right to sublicense through unlimited levels of sublicensees) to use, copy, modify, adapt, translate, publicly perform, publicly display, store, reproduce, transmit, and distribute such Content on and through the Services. This license will terminate at the time you remove such Content from the Services.

But will they still own a piece of you?

- - You agree to pay for all royalties, fees, and any other monies owing any person by reason of any Content posted by you to or through the Services.

You grant them a royalty-free worldwide license, royalties which you yourself have to pay?

Subject: RE: MySpace policies - ?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Jun 06 - 04:54 PM

Distinguish fees that may be payable to anyone else for any part of your work - eg if you used a sample and have to pay for it - from the money raised by your work.

If you owe someone royalties for Rupie's use of your work with the sample in it - you pay it not him.

The other side of it is you getting the royalties for your own work.

How to explain "non-exclusive"? Hmm. You write a song. Copyright arises automatically (even in the USA, since the USA joined the Berne Convention). Only you can authorise anyone to do any of the acts restricted by copyright. That's exclusive. It excludes everyone else, unless you permit what they do.

A non-exclusive right, someone else can permit things, as well as you. So if you give Rupie a non-exclusive right (for example) to authorise downloads of your music, either you or he can authorise that thing. So if you get offered a paid-for contract for downloads of your music, if you are prepared to accept 1 cent per download, but Rupie is prepared to accept 0.5 cents, he gets the contract and you get nothing.

If you get offered a songwriting contract or a music publising deal (invariably only ever offered on an exclusive basis) you can't give the exclusive rights to the songs you put on mysapce 'cos Rupie already has concurrent non-exclusive rights with you.


Did I make that clear?

Subject: RE: MySpace policies - ?
From: JedMarum
Date: 12 Jun 06 - 05:36 PM

I can't imagine placing anything on Myspace that was not already published - therefore my licensing rights already limited to mechanical license. My permission is NOT required for mechanical license of a published work.

I understand the dangers of placing UNpublished works on Myspace - but I don't see that I have anything to loose with published works. ASCAP already tracks performance roylaties (radio play) for me - and my mechanical license agreements for those also publishing my sonsg are still in effect.

Am I missing something?

Subject: RE: MySpace policies - ?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 12 Jun 06 - 05:46 PM

What's the deal with this?

> EVEN AFTER MEMBERSHIP IS TERMINATED, THIS AGREEMENT WILL REMAIN IN EFFECT, INCLUDING SECTIONS 5-17

And guess what number 6 is:

6. Proprietary Rights in Content on MySpace.com.

Subject: RE: MySpace policies - ?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Jun 06 - 06:14 PM

Bonnie, you can't get your rights back from Myspace.

Jed, if Rupie decides to offer a service associated with Myspace that replicates anything your music publisher exclusively has, you have just put yourself in breach of your music publishing agreement and the Myspace terms in one fell swoop. Why not check with your music publisher "Uh, I'm thinking of putting one of the songs you have on Myspace and here are the Myspace terms for you to check". Wait for the explosion!

US has compulsory mechanical licence for published works. UK does not (abolished it in 1988), other places vary.

What about commercial downloads? Ooh-er Missus!

Subject: RE: MySpace policies - ?
From: Anne Lister
Date: 13 Jun 06 - 02:40 AM

Um ... Richard, if the US has a compulsory mechanical licence for published works, how is it that I'm dependent on honest folkies to pay me when they record my songs? Because nothing - nothing! - ever reaches me via ASCAP or Harry Fox. And that I know of at least two recordings for which I've never received a cent?   

And on a different tack - to quote again

6. Proprietary Rights in Content on MySpace.com.
By displaying or publishing ("posting") any Content, messages, text, files, images, photos, video, sounds, profiles, works of authorship, or any other materials (collectively, "Content") on or through the Services, you hereby grant to MySpace.com, a non-exclusive, fully-paid and royalty-free, worldwide license (with the right to sublicense through unlimited levels of sublicensees) to use, copy, modify, adapt, translate, publicly perform, publicly display, store, reproduce, transmit, and distribute such Content on and through the Services. This license will terminate at the time you remove such Content from the Services.

Isn't the last sentence significant? So if I remove my content from the services, the license is terminated. Surely?

Anne

Subject: RE: MySpace policies - ?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 13 Jun 06 - 03:25 AM

Ralph,
You are entitled to your opinion, and I respect that, but I am also entitled to mine as well and therefore, I would ask *you* to respect that.

To be honest,I'm fair fed up with you telling me what to do and to dampen my enthusiasm etc.etc. I would rather die than give up an ounce of my enthusiasm or love for this music that I have found! So....I'd suggest we agree to differ. You enthuse your way and I'll enthuse mine! And PLEASE stop being so patronising as to suggest that I've not heard of Bonnie or Billy!

Sheesh!!!!



Lizzie.
Apologies for the Bonnie and Billy bit. Glad to know that you listen.
With great respect, I am not talking about enthusiasts here.(Like yourself, and nothing wrong with enthusiasm)
There are a lot of fine musicians on this board (and others) who are trying very hard to make a living by playing music.

We are a suspicious lot. I know of many people who have had their fingers burned by getting "into bed" with unscrupulous agents, Record companies, etc, etc.

Personally, I wouldn't even answer the phone to Mr Murdoch.
And the thought of giving up my rights (all of them) to such a place as My Space. ....!
Well, I might as well respond to the Nigerian Scam...

"Yes, I'd love to look after your 50 Million Nigerian dollars, here is my bank details and my PIN number"

Sorry Lizzie. You are a fan of music...Good, Enjoy...
But don't start telling struggling artists how to run their lives.

(Quote from Lizzie)

"It strikes me that nearly all the criticism that comes on these threads is from people who don't have a Myspace page in the first place, and who are therefore totally unaware of the power that this site has to promote music and support musicians, in a way that's never happened before."

And the reason why the critics of My Space don't have a page on My Space......???? Go Figure

Ralphie

Subject: RE: MySpace policies - ?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Jun 06 - 03:51 AM

As Countess Richard points out "a back-up or residual copy of the Content posted by you may remain on the MySpace.com servers after you have removed the Content from the Services, and MySpace.com retains the rights to those copies"

Secondly, Rupie can change the deal any time he likes "MySpace.com may modify this Agreement from time to time and such modification shall be effective upon posting by MySpace.com on the Website. You agree to be bound to any changes to this Agreement when you use the Services after any such modification is posted. It is therefore important that you review this Agreement regularly to ensure you are updated as to any changes"

Subject: RE: MySpace policies - ?
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 13 Jun 06 - 05:27 AM

Trusting R Murdoch to look ater your financial interests - it's a bit like asking Myra Hindley in to do the babysitting.

That said, I doubt that it would mater much exactly which big business owned the site. Anyone who imposes a dodgy contract does not do so for the benefit of the unwary possible victims.
I seem to recall that a few years back a lot of mudcatters had music on a site called MP3.com and were fairly happy for a while until the bosses of the firm started messing them about in favour of people they thought they could make big cash from exploiting. The result was lawsuits and finally the web site closing down. The name was then bought by some other firm and used for diferent purposes.
I'm not sure how much overlap the problems with myspace and MP3.com might have, but as soon as somebody thinks that they can make a swift buck, make sure that they don't have a contract which makes it legal at your expense.
Quack!
GtD.

Subject: RE: MySpace policies - ?
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 13 Jun 06 - 06:12 AM

Ralph! You are driving me nuts at present! Grrrrrrrrr! OoooH! Grrrrrrrr! ;0)

I'm not 'ordering' musicians to go and get a page. If people have such closed down minds, well...there is nothing I can do about that. Each to their own. But just as much as YOU think I'm bossing you and others around...I think you're doing exactly the same, by constantly advocating the people should NOT go into Myspace.

There are TWO sides of this coin.

Over 80 million people are in there now. And the people whom I have been talking to, are not the sort who'd buy a Rupie Compilation Album! I've had e mails from some people which say that THEIR lawyers HAVE looked into all the details and they are entirely satisfied! I know that Richard is saying the opposite, but as Jed said earlier....do you really think that the big stars, who can afford the best lawyers in the WORLD would be in there, if there were such major problems??????

AND....even if Rupie tried something on....do you seriously think that he'd get away with it, with an army of music lawyers in there?
These guys are used to dealing with music contracts, they do it every day of their lives for the mega stars. I truly cannot believe that they've ALL overlooked something which Richard apparently has not.

I'm just saying that to dissuade people is wrong. Tell people to read the small print and get it checked....fair enough...everyone should do that anyway. But to say people shouldn't use it purely because Rupie owns it now..well..that way lies madness, in my opinion.

I am totally, 100% with Ian Anderson on this one (shock! horror!) ;0) Ian has said many a time something along the lines that this is a very valuable site. He can see the positives, just as I can. Do you honestly think that Ian would have his music playing on there if he was worried? LOOK!:

http://www.myspace.com/vulturama

I can understand Billy's reaction, but whilst I appreciate what he's doing, in trying to get the legalities made clear to everyone, even those without highly over-paid lawyers...I think it has been an over-reaction.

The amount of music that I have discovered Ralph, from right around the world is mind-boggling! The places that site is taking me to cannot be over-enthused about! It does not just open up music, it opens up people and it opens up minds. It is uniting the world in a way that has never happened before. The other day I 'fell' into the songs of Vinnie James, such wonderful songs about what is happening in this troubled world of ours!

http://www.myspace.com/vinniejames

Oh, his words are so wise! We immediately got his 'All American Boy' CD and every single song just took me to yet more places that I want to be. Yet, I'd never have found Vinnie had it not been for Myspace! Music like his can make such a difference to this world and our children. And NOW, through his page...Vinnie has 'a voice'...He CAN let his music be heard right around the world and we are all switching in and listening to him, believe you me!

He is part African, part Native American and the wisdom he has...well, it gives you hope for the future. Through Vinnie's page I have found many Native American sites. And Oh...you can literally feel the pain of the Native American people coming off their pages! And when you read what they say, realise their wisdom and how we should all be adopting their outlook, not only for ourselves but for the sake of this incredible planet..well, it makes you rage inside that they have been so overlooked for so long!

And the anger of the Hawaiian people too. And as you move from country to country you begin to see that so many of us are feeling the same....sick of the way the world is at present, wanting desperately to change it, knowing that we HAVE to!

Yes, it's ironic that one of the world's richest corporate businessmen is now in charge of this wondrous site, but maybe...just MAYBE..he was 'meant' to buy Myspace for a purpose that even he never dreamt of. Perhaps even Rupert Murdoch is having his eyes opened in a way he never has before! MAYBE...even HE is tuning in and watching...watching as the Native Americans begin to link with others around the world, taking their wisdom with them, as the indigenous peoples of the planet begin to stand up and say "ENOUGH!"....as we all begin to realise that actually, we are all ONE PEOPLE!

And it is happening through their music Ralph!

There have been three phrases I've seen recently in Myspace which won't leave my head:

"Turning one voice into millions"
"We are all in this together"

And....

"Nothing changes if nothing changes"


I'm afraid that I have come to realise that there is a certain element within the English Traditional world which *wants* nothing to change, in any way whatsoever. But it IS changing...and you cannot stop it. BUT...it is changing for the better! British music should be known about on the other side of the world, just as people's music over there, should be known about, discussed and played over here. Myspace gives the world that opportunity! AND...it is a golden opportunity, not just for Rupert to make more money from advertising, but for millions of others, in a very different way.

If you don't want to know, fair enough. But I'd say it is unfair to do all in your power to put people off. Tell them the anxieties you have by all means, but then let people make up their own minds and explore deeper. The legal advice on this page comes from just one person, I believe. There is no way that we know that it is correct, any more than we know that it is not. These are all just opinions.

With great respect Richard, I'm sure there are thousands of lawyers who have perused Rupert Murdoch's contracts with a magnifying glass, month after month, before advising their clients to put their music up on site.

I'm with Jed Marum on this one. See his posts above.

Oh....and TALKING of Jed....I found his music yesterday and it is wonderful!! Yesterday afternoon Jed was in my living room...hour after hour....and he lives in Texas! But we were playing his music over and over. Take a listen to 'Soul Of A Wanderer'...it will bring tears to your eyes, the way that Jed sings it...such tenderness!

http://www.myspace.com/jedmarumband


...and all I know Ralph, is that my world would be that little bit less bright if I'd not found Jed's music, and way darker if I had not found Vinnie's. And each time this happens, another star is lit, another light comes on in my life....and I pass those lights on to my children too.

Would I ever want to lose the sheer *beauty* of the section of the human race that I have found, which lies within Myspace?

NEVER....EVER!



Lizzie :0)

Subject: RE: MySpace policies - ?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 13 Jun 06 - 06:15 AM

Is there a difference between the "license" and the "Agreement" (note capital letter)?

In the T&Cs (at least until Rupie changes them without warning) you get the Term, which is shown first, in which it says the bit about the Agreement remaining in effect even after you leave. The only place where it says the license will terminate when you remove your stuff is under Clause 6, which comes AFTER the term. The two statements appear to contradict each other - or is there some distinction between "the license" which ends, and the "Agreement" which doesn't, even after you've terminated the license as per the terms of Clause 6? Does the Term take precedence over Clause 6?

My spell-checker turned "Rupie" into "rupee". Apt.

- - -

Term. This Agreement shall remain in full force and effect while you use the Services or are a Member... You may terminate your Membership at any time, for any reason... MySpace.com may terminate your Membership at any time, without warning. Even after Membership is terminated, this Agreement will remain in effect, INCLUDING SECTIONS 5-17. [My caps - BS]

And then, a bit further down in No. 6

6. Proprietary Rights in Content on MySpace.com.
... This license will terminate at the time you remove such Content from the Services.

Subject: RE: MySpace policies - ?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 13 Jun 06 - 06:19 AM

Lizzie, PLEASE!!! There are NOT two sides to this coin. There is ONE: the legal side.

This thread is not about opinions or wishes or what music one loves. Its about GETTING RIPPED OFF.

Subject: RE: MySpace policies - ?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 13 Jun 06 - 06:52 AM

LC: Nothing changes if nothing changes

What kind of a meaningless platitude is that?

John Tams: Nothing changes it all stays the same

Some things do - like peeps with selective hearing. Richard Bridge is going to be highly amused at this slur on his legal experience. Unlike him I'm not a lawyer but am merely qualified to translate contracts in three languages. Unsurprisingly, I've always looked askance at clauses which assign ridiculously stacked advantages to one party and wonder how on earth pens ever touched parchment. In a different life though I've also known many a struggling artist who signed stuff in desperation and without advice just to get a start, or whose rights (non-exclusive or at any rate shared) were transferred over their heads to a different and very much less co-operative owner. Life's tough enough without struggling to get back what's yours and future potential victims need all the advice they can get to avoid falling into the rip-off trap.

(Note to Bonnie: last time . . .)

Subject: RE: MySpace policies - ?
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 13 Jun 06 - 07:12 AM

Well, if you're so well qualified in legal things Diane, it's a great shame that you let your tongue run you into libellous conversations over on the Radio 2 board recently then! And you did it in only one language.

Personally, after seeing your 'legal' knowledge on that thread I'd run as far in the opposite direction from you, or your opinions, as fast I possibly could!

I'm sure Richard does his job very well. I expect Dolly Parton will be on the phone to him any minute!

And Bonnie...there are always TWO sides to everything.

Thank you.

Subject: RE: MySpace policies - ?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 13 Jun 06 - 07:27 AM

VERY last time (and purely to correct LC's bollox-spouting:

(1) I am NOT legally qualified (except to intermediate in French law)

(2) It is not 'libel' to point out matters of fact which a party finds uncomfortable and would prefer not to have mentioned. It is 'potentially defamatory' , in which the burden is on the plaintiff to prove loss.

Subject: RE: MySpace policies - ?
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 13 Jun 06 - 07:40 AM

Don't you go giving me any of that nonsense! You actually had to apologise...possibly for the first time known to man, woman or beast!!


The repercussions from that outburst the other day could have been dreadful! And did you care? NO! The only thing you cared about was slamming into someone, with as it turned out, the wrong opinion. And once again, Ian Anderson publicly disagreed with you on that one too!

So once more, I also re-iterate what I have said.

By all means tell people about your 'anxieties' but then, let them make their own decisions.

Oh and Richard, to quote you.."Read my lips"....Has Dolly phoned yet?

Subject: RE: MySpace policies - ?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 13 Jun 06 - 07:54 AM

Is there a difference between the "license" and the "Agreement" ???

Subject: RE: MySpace policies - ?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 13 Jun 06 - 08:11 AM

This is completely off-topic (though actually related, hypothetically and in an odd way) to the actual subject matter of this thread. Just in case anyone knows (or cares) what LC is blathering about, I'll make this brief statement:

(1) I apologised for the flippant way in which I had raised a serious matter (as I do often) concerning music distribution which has 'potential repercussions' on ARTISTS. Irony does not always come over well on line.

(2) It was no 'outburst' but evidence from an ongoing investigation into said distribution methods which had been put to the company concerned with no reponse. Since it is permissable to speak of those involved here (though not at the BBC) the precise matter may well re-emerge in this forum. It has before.

(3) Ian Anderson does not disagree with me. We have differences of emphasis on MySpace but on the matter of ripping off artists, we are one. (Oh, and by the way, he thanks you very much for directing people towards Vulturama . . . )

End of . . .

Subject: RE: MySpace policies - ?
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 13 Jun 06 - 08:29 AM

Er..no...Ian Anderson actually came on to disagree with what you appeared to be insinuating and he stood up completely for the company that you were so eager to try and malign.

And it was a pleasure to put Ian's site on here.

Lizzie :0)

Subject: RE: MySpace policies - ?
From: dwditty
Date: 13 Jun 06 - 09:18 AM

I like myspace. Lots fo hits...met lots of other local musicians...and I keep in touch with my kids, to boot.

Subject: RE: MySpace policies - ?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 13 Jun 06 - 09:20 AM

Is there a difference between the "license" and the "Agreement" - re my post of 6:15 - ???

Subject: RE: MySpace policies - ?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 13 Jun 06 - 09:27 AM

LC: Save it for the Celtic Music No 7 thread which should be along by and by. This will contain (as usual) a dedicated reservation for those who like to flaunt their complete ignorance of how the music industry operates and equate, amazingly, the wearing of a suit with truthfulness.

Bonnie: I'm not sure but I'm trying to get it charified.

Subject: RE: MySpace policies - ?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 13 Jun 06 - 09:43 AM

I like myspace. Lots fo hits...met lots of other local musicians...and I keep in touch with my kids, to boot.

That's fine dwditty. I don't think anyone is disputing there are not useful sides to myspace.

The point of this thread (at least to me) though is over actual terms and conditions on the site which as far as I can see (and a lawyer has explained) could be of concern to artists. If someone else can offer a different legal interpretation of what is written down, I'd be pleased to read it...

Subject: RE: MySpace policies - ?
From: GUEST,Ralph
Date: 13 Jun 06 - 09:53 AM

Lizzie.
I refuse to be lectured/hectored by you on this subject.
You assume a lot, and actually know very little.
I had the honour of working with John Peel for over 30 years. Andy Kershaw for at least 20. Verity and Fiona on Late Junction since it's inception. I have also produced several CD's (Not least being Nic Jones "Unearthed")

The whole point of this thread (as I see it) was to make people aware of the dangers in giving up the rights of their work to someone else....no more, no less.
I will not apologise for warning artists to avoid such a place as My Space.
If you want to find artists/tunes/songs/ etc...Just ask the questions here!!
I've learnt an enourmous amount from the good people of the Cat. From all parts of the world. All given (nearly!!) with good heart and good spirit.
Knowing how some artists have been ripped off by various shysters over the years. I'm hardly going to give a glowing endorsement to, what is a frankly, very dodgy outfit run by a very rich foreigner.

And to finish, that, as someone who didn't even have the courage to come up to me at Sidmouth in Feb to say hello. How dare you assume that you understand what my agenda might be.

End Ralph

Subject: RE: MySpace policies - ?
From: JedMarum
Date: 13 Jun 06 - 10:26 AM

... and so, apparently all of the artists who believe the naysaying, Rupie haters are simply blowing smoke are idiots.

I think a quick look at those of us signed to Myspace (some listed above) show just how many idiots there are.

And perhaps chicken little was right.

Subject: RE: MySpace policies - ?
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 13 Jun 06 - 10:36 AM

Ralph...Grrrrrrrrr!!!

I didn't come up to you at Sidmouth because you had already started ranting at me on the Radio 2 board! You didn't seriously expect me to feel at ease about saying hello? But I was grinning at you, from ear to ear. And you grinned back too!

AND...YOU are lecturing ME! I don't much care who you know or have known in the past, present or future! I'm just saying that you have a right to your opinions over Myspace and I have a right to mine. AND...as I am in there a great deal and have come into contact with loads of wonderful people, ONLY because of Myspace...and have discovered an absolute wealth of musical treasure in there, I will continue to sing it's praises!

Everywhere I go people tell me to write how THEY want me to write, to only talk about what THEY want me talk about, to not use Smilies, to not write overlong pieces, to not talk about Myspace or Show of Hands or a thousand other artists who don't fit in with the English Traditionalists Right Accent Club, to not DARE to write about what is happening in this world around us, and then to talk about songs that are highlighting it!! All the time.."Don't! Don't! Don't!"

Well I DO and I WILL!

I too have learned a great deal Ralph. A GREAT deal about the people I choose to support, about the people I have respect for...and I have had NOTHING but kindness and civility shown to me on Myspace. It is a great place, with many, many lovely people in there.

I stand by all that I said above. And I will NOT change my mind, despite the continual heckling that goes on.

I think we should simply agree to disagree and both respect each other's opinions.

Lizzie

Subject: RE: MySpace policies - ?
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 Jun 06 - 10:40 AM

Jon, I agree. I am interested in the legal issues.

The personal rehashing would be better dealt with by PMs, imo.

FWIW, over the years I have found hundreds of musicians, right here at Mudcat, whom I would never have known about and have their CDs as a result, as well friendship with some. Didn't need any myspace to accomplish that!:-)

Richard, thank you for sharing your legal expertise. My brother has been looking into ways of putting his music up on the web. I'd seen a little bit about myspace, but will NOT recommend it, esp. based on what you have told us. Much appreciated.

kat

Subject: RE: MySpace policies - ?
From: dwditty
Date: 13 Jun 06 - 10:43 AM

There is not much doubt that posting anything very dear on the internet is risky....yes even here on mudcat. There are creeps everywhere. Perhaps MySpace is a ploy to garner rights to all the world's music, in which case they are off to a pretty good start with nearly a quarter of a million musicians posting there. Perhaps they have strong language in their terms to limit their liability due to the actions of some of their users. One thing I have learned is that no legalese is immune to "interpretation," so it doesn't much matter what the terms say. SOoner or later some lawyer will get some judge to agree with an interpretation that causes one party to win and one party to lose....this is our justice system. This discussion is useful in that it may help some people decide if they want to use MySpace services or not. In my case, it is not a life or death issue. I make music for enjoyment. Were it my livelihood, I would probably guard it closely, but for now I get a kick out of knowing that someone thousands of miles away is listening to my music. If I get ripped off, I will decide then if I want to pull off of MySpace and end their "rights" to my product. If you are concerned about the terms of MySpace, by all means don't use it.

Subject: RE: MySpace policies - ?
From: JedMarum
Date: 13 Jun 06 - 11:09 AM

You see dwditty - that is my point. Music is my livelihood and my passion. Myspace offers me some very useful networking opportunities and posting my music there offers me some no cost "advertizing" as well. I sell on-line, CDs and MP3s every week to people who found me through Myspace - and I am developing good business contacts as well.

The huge stars, carefully marketed and managed by the big star making machnery also see the value in Myspace - and, like me have judged the agreement in question to be benign.

I really believe this whole issue is manufactured and counterproductive. Myspace is a genuine help for mid-level professional artists like me. I would never place any unpublished works that I wanted to protect there - but I would always be careful how those are published anyway.

I just don't believe there is any merit to the naysayer's arguement in this case.

Subject: RE: MySpace policies - ?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 13 Jun 06 - 11:09 AM

That makes sense dw.

Jed Marum, numbers of people doing something has and never will mean much in this way. How many people even bother to read small print for starters? How many people get swept along by a craze for another, etc .

I'm trying to understand the legal business and am listning to what people have to say on this subject. Blinding me with numbers will not work nor will calling people who are trying to understand the terms, idiots.

Subject: RE: MySpace policies - ?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 13 Jun 06 - 11:10 AM

If you CAN end their rights to your product, Ditty. Richard has stated pretty unequivocally that you can't, and he's a legal professional. I still have that question nagging away at my mind which I first voiced in the 6:15 post - to wit (all together now, one, two three):

Is there a difference between the "license" and the "Agreement" ???????