folksingers who quit,and why?

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: Brendy
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 07:58 PM

I've been supporting myself on the folk scene for over 30 years.

It's a life, mate.
You either do it, or you don't.

B.

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: GUEST,N.t.o.g.
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 08:10 PM

Not here you haven't. So ease up on the platitudes.

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: Brendy
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 08:27 PM

D'ya see that gig every 9 weeks?
That was indefinite.

I have 5 such offers in England alone.
3 Pubs & 2 Folk Clubs.

I could live there handy enough.

I could also live here or Ireland, handy enough.
... and commute.

I know what I'm talking about too.

B.

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: Brendy
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 08:49 PM

It is if you know what you're talking about.

Why?

B.

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: JedMarum
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 08:57 PM

I see a big shift in the US venues ... I can make it work because I keep trying new things and playing different kinds of venues. In truth I work anywhere I can get paid and too many where I don't.

My main interest in playing is still concerts ... that's the kind of "entertainment" I do best. The truth is I am NOT a personality entertainer, not a humorist, not a virtuoso ... but I have some of each of those elements. IF people are entertained by my show it is because they have an interest in the kind of music I play - and they are "entertained" by the music. As a performer, I'd have to say I'm a musician (not an entertainer). That is the basic weaknesses I've had to work on - and frankly still need to work on.

In order to make a living, I've had to develop other kinds of shows (beyond concerts). I play some where I do very few of my own songs (usually Pubs) and I play some shows where I do almost nothing but my own songs.

Especially this time of year - I feel like my day job is a Pub singer. I don't mean to put down pubs. I actually enjoy doing them, most of the time - but it's not what I'm best at - and I've had to work hard to be as good as I am. So I see it as both a way to make money and a way to force me to develop as an "entertainer."

We have one of the very best entertainers in the world here at Mudcat ... and that is Seamus Kennedy. He is both a fine singer/musician and a first rate humorist. Seamus is the perfect entertainer in one package. It seems to just roll from him when he's on-stage, but I know how hard I've worked to develop my show ... so I suspect he works at least as hard.

As the music scene changes, I assume it is my task to change with it, and maybe even be lucky enough to change ahead of it. I've always been interested in history and wrote a few songs inspired by history - and I've accidentally fallen into a bit of a music niche there - mostly CD and MP3 sales - but I do a few shows every year that pay well. I push stuff out onto Myspace and Youtube - and I sell CDs and MP3s through CDBaby. Each of these sites has provide some benefit - CDBaby especially through real income - but the others give me demo sites, promo facilities and have helped me make meaningful music connections.

I have struggled with festival growth - as a solo performer and a balladeer I find fewer and fewer festivals have those kind of slots. The shift there has been toward the big fat sound of kick-ass trad based bands - and toward the even bigger and fatter sounds of the hard Celtic rock bands. So I've been booking some festivals with various band configurations, tapping some very talented friends for band members as needed.

I've also stumbled into TV and film work. None of that's paid well, yet - but it helps on the resume (CV) and provides real advertising. I do have one film possible for next year that will actually earn me something if it goes. I won't hold my breath, but I will keep my fingers crossed.

Anyway - as I struggle through this music business, I keep trying to find new ways to make it work.

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: Brendy
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 09:06 PM

Although based in Denmark for the past year, my 'home' over here (and where I pay my taxes) for the past 13 years is Oslo, Norway.
This is a huge country of only 5 million people, where alcohol is among the most expensive in the world..., and it's illegal to advertise it.
You're singing in English (or Irish) to people whose only connection with the song is the soul you put into it.

England's a dawdle, mate, believe me.

B.

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: GUEST,chas
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 09:17 PM

Believe you WHY, exactly? You don't play there. So how do you know?

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: Brendy
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 09:26 PM

I've been asked to, and taking into account renting a house, car lease, etc, I could live & work quite easily there.

I don't want to, however.

B.

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: M.Ted
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 12:23 AM

I apologize for moving back to topic;-)

For my part, I stopped the singing thing(but not the playing music thing) for mostly health reasons. I was and am prone to respiratory ailments, and in several consecutive years, I was unable to sing for long periods of time. Finally, a good opportunity, that I had spend a long time setting up fell through because my voice was gone at a critical time. I knew it was time to hang up the singing and just play. Wedding bells and subsequent obligations have taken their toll on that, as well.

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: GUEST,Texas Guest
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 12:40 AM

Jed Marum - you leave me now more befuddled about this business than I thought. I have always thought that I was at the very "bottom of the barrel," so to speak, yet you insist that you reside there.
Comparing what I have done and where I've been to what you have done and where you have been, well, I can't hold a candle to you; so I
guess my question is: if you are at the "bottom of the barrel" -
where in the hell does that leave me? I guess I must be part of the
residue on the bottom plate inside the barrel; oh well, at least I'm in the barrel - I guess. Cheers.

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 12:55 AM

' have struggled with festival growth - as a solo performer and a balladeer I find fewer and fewer festivals have those kind of slots. '

Shame on you America - he's one of your best!

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: GUEST, Anon FPR
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 04:12 AM

I got the impression that the removed guest was talking about clubs not pubs, Brendy. You can certainly make a living doing pub gigs in the UK if you want to. But very few UK pros do pub gigs - they are just too noisy for the material we've developed for our core market. There's not usually enough respect for that stuff to work properly in a pub, so you can't do your 'proper' material. You have to belt out crowd-pleasers, which is ok if you want the gig badly enough. I've done it, and done it for too long. I'm not going back to that (never mind the PA humping, the drunks and the rude bar staff).

This thread is, I think, mainly about the club and festival circuit (where crowd-pleasing material is not usually required). Different game.

If you came to the UK as an unknown and tried to make a living in the folk clubs... well, try it and see - I may be wrong, but you'd need to work very very very hard, and do a lot of gigs for nowt to get started - so bring enough dosh to keep you for six months.

I'm considered to be pretty good and pretty well-known - and I've been doing it for decades. I work flat out, covering every angle I can think of all the time, and yet I don't make enough to trouble the tax man.

Dave said "Bella Hardy; Devil's Interval; Lisa Knapp; Kerfuffle; Last Orders; Damien O'Kane and Shona Kipling; Spiers and Boden, Mawkin:Causley,; Hekety/Crucible have all served their time."

Note the past tense. How many are now full-time club only pros with no day-jobs? And how many will still be doing it (or wanting to do it) in ten years time?

As the man/woman said - the days when club touring was a proper job are over.

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: SimonS
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 05:53 AM

"Bella Hardy; Devil's Interval; Lisa Knapp; Kerfuffle; Last Orders; Damien O'Kane and Shona Kipling; Spiers and Boden, Mawkin:Causley,; Hekety/Crucible have all served their time. "

Interesting, why do you say that? Amongst the people you've listed, there are a few who are amongst the hardest working people around, a couple who do a reasonably large amount of gigs, and a few who have most certainly not "served their time" in any accepted sense (one of whom you can count the amount of professional gigs on the fingers of one hand). Its amazing what a little publicity will do for you...

The only people you mentioned who don't have jobs other than gigs are Spiers and Boden, and up until a couple of years ago John Spiers was still managing The Music Room in Oxford at the same time as touring.

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: oggie
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 06:54 AM

I wonder just how many full-time performers there actually are on the UK folk scene? Even many who we would generally class as full-time make a portion of their income (in some cases a large portion) from non folk circuit activity.

The notion of "serving your time" and becoming full-time I think is now past it's sell by date (it it was ever in date). I don't think that the UK folk cicuit can support, on a year round basis, more than a handful of full-time performers, the majority will have to develop a range of activities that they can offer in different spheres.

All the best

Steve

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: Brendy
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 08:18 AM

As a guy who cut his teeth in the folk clubs up and down Ireland in the '70, AnonFPR, I certainly need no proof that the folk club scene has gone plummeting over the years. The English folk-club scene is no different

What I do is about the bottom limit of what an 'Irish Pub' would consider 'Irish'.
... which is why I stay away from most of them.
The pubs I play are generally small little folk clubs in themselves. I have long left behind the 4 one-hour sets on a Friday & Saturday night, (different craic in Europe, lads...) except I have another musician (at least) with me.

I would qualify all I said about being able to live & work as a full-time musician in England, with the comment that I never have limited myself to having to 'survive' off one country alone. Not that I couldn't do it. But not knowing my personal financial status, no-one can gainsay me, neither.

As I said earlier, it is a life, and you create your own good luck.
'Serving your time' is just getting to know the business

What I'm trying to streamline at the minute is the '6 months in Ireland - 6 months in Scandinavia, which is why the hypothetical question of whether or not I could live in England as a full-time muso is heavily rhetorical.

I sympathise with musicians who can't get their art out there.
But networking is very important. I got those offers of almost residency gigs by people I met on the road over here; I didn't cold-call them. They came up to me.
I gave them my card with web address, mobile number, and a wee CD to throw behind the bar.

Goodwill is a word I haven't noticed mentioned on the thread, yet.
The folk scene needs all it can get.

I get by.

B.

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: GUEST, Anon FPR
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 08:45 AM

"The pubs I play are generally small little folk clubs in themselves"

Not many of them in the UK...

"almost residency gigs"

Ah. Not clubs at all then. Different game, different rules.

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: Brendy
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 08:53 AM

Hang on, FPR, you are not reading between the lines, here..., you're not even reading the lines itself...

The pubs in England that I have been offered are such.
If a venue doesn't interest me, I normally let the people know there and then.
The Folk clubs & Pubs concerned have offered me a year's work

Different rules?
Don't think so.

Have a look at The Snail's post on the sister thread, and maybe I think some of you will get a clearer picture.

If I couldn't survive on the English Folk Scene, ladies and gentlemen, I would be the first to acknowledge it.

B.

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: TheSnail
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 09:12 AM

Brendy

Have a look at The Snail's post on the sister thread, and maybe I think some of you will get a clearer picture.

Not sure that I do. We certainly don't offer anyone a year's work. I don't recognise the sort of venue Brendy is talking about at all.

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: Brendy
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 09:15 AM

I'm also at a loss to know why one should concentrate only on earning a living in England, Scotland and Wales?
In these days of cheap flights, one could safely be playing a festival in Stockholm, Oslo, København, Hamburg, Kiel, one weekend, and back on home turf, Sunday night with a rake of foreign currency in your pocket.

That was the basis of my point earlier about diversifying.

If folksingers are quitting because of lack of venues in said 3 countries, consider expanding your horizons.

One less excuse for having to quit.

B.

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: Brendy
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 09:17 AM

I was referring to you 'booking who you want'.

B.

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: GUEST, Anon
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 09:24 AM

I'm not sure Brendy knows what a UK folk club actually is...

Clubs are effectively closed-door semi-formal concerts with an entry fee, Brendy, usually offering a mix of unpaid locals and paid visitors performing. Even the very top names in the land are only ever booked once a year. Not all clubs have paid visitors - but in these no-one gets paid at all.

No club in the UK has a paid residency. Session-leading happens, yes (but unlike in Ireland this are quite rare as there's usually no demand for pros to up the ante), pub gigs happen yes (play in the bar, usually free entry, take pot luck with the noise levels), pub concerts in a room at the back with a door chage, yes. But not clubs with a name, a committe, regular members, floor spots, raffles etc, no.

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: GUEST, Anon
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 09:27 AM

Some of us have families Bendy. Have you tried flying with £12k's worth of instruments that they won't let you take in the cabin - never mind the carbon footprint issue. And how are we supposed to find the gigs? Turn up and busk?

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: GUEST,Another anon
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 09:39 AM

> If I couldn't survive on the English Folk Scene, ladies and gentlemen, I would be the first to acknowledge it.

First you have to acknowledge what the "English folk scene" IS - and I don't believe you really know either. All your blithe dismissals seem merely to underline this. This scene you're so sure you could make a living in reads like some alternative reality to the one you - by your own admission - have no actual experience of. Or is this all a wind-up?

> You create your own good luck

OK, fine. But you DON'T necessarily create your own bad luck. If bad luck doesn't happen to you, hooray. But PLEASE stop being so I'm-all-right-Jack complacent.

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: Brendy
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 09:40 AM

Families and full time musicianship can function. But that is very much an issue you must look at, not me
If you're worried about carbon footprints, however, you should walk to all your gigs from here out.
My instruments (I carry at least 3 wherever I go) are an ongoing negotiation with check-in staff.
But as this is also part of my job, I deal with it!

How do you find the gigs?
Stop sitting on your arse in here complaining about it and use the internet to ask questions about what's out there.
Is it your job, or isn't it??????

Anon 09.24:
What is a Folk-Club?

I'm talking about 9 venues in a landmass that supports 120 million people, once every 9 weeks...., and gorgeous wee gigs they would have been.

The venues are there if you look hard enough, and apply a little lateral thinking along the way.

B.

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: Brendy
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 09:43 AM

"First you have to acknowledge what the "English folk scene" IS - and I don't believe you really know either"

I know enough about it to be able survive in it, anyway, Anon 09.39.

B.

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: Brendy
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 10:02 AM

... just spotted this now.... "But PLEASE stop being so I'm-all-right-Jack complacent."

Look....., don't misunderstand me. I'm not complacent, neither am I trying to be patronising. Those epithets are usually flung around when an impasse is arrived at.

I care very deeply about the folk scene. Part of what drives me over here is to help create a 'scumbag agent-free' zone...., 'cos (and you can believe this)..., there's a lot of people take advantage out there.
It's not just a Scandinavian thing; give the wrong kind of person a position of power, and the scene can crumble down around your ears.

I could find a dozen other countries that it would be easier for me to operate in, but I choose Norway and Denmark.
I do this because I want to help expand the market.

I'm the least complacent guy in the World, Guest.

I care very much....

B.

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: GUEST,Black Hawk on works PC
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 10:12 AM

Brendy ?
You say you know enough to survive in it. I could say the same about the Alaskan wilderness but until I had done it we wouldnt know would we?
How about at least giving a clue as to the areas these clubs are in that are offering you contracts not available to anyone else. There are no clubs in the NE of England that will do this. Some are booked up at least 12 months in advance. Just because someone on holiday offers you a booking does not mean that it is a 'cert'.
I've been offered bookings in Florida, Spain, France etc. but not firm contracts.

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: Brendy
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 10:21 AM

Look, Black Hawk, you don't know me, and I don't know you.
... so basically, you don't have a balls notion about the circumstances of my meeting with these people.

Neither do you have a balls notion if I could survive in my version of your Alaskan wilderness.

London, Birmingham, Liverpool, Manchester, Cornwall, Black Hawk.

B.

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: Peace
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 10:22 AM

There ain't too many clubs anywhere where you can count on a gig without something in writing. There are some, however.

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: Brendy
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 10:28 AM

I contract everything, Bruce.

B.

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: GUEST,Black Hawk on works PC
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 10:30 AM

Pity our local clubs cant afford to offer you a residency.

You are obviously the greatest thing to hit the folk club scene and would give a much needed boost.

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: Peace
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 10:30 AM

Hi, Brendy.

I have one I'm doing in Montreal in january. Done on a 'handshake'. There are about a half dozen people I'd trust to come through. They're all in Montreal. However, your way is wisest.

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: GUEST,AA
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 10:31 AM

Brendy do you have a website or myspace page or anything posted on the internet? If you do, how about a link?

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: Brendy
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 10:37 AM

The money is not the issue, Black Hawk..
... here comes that word again....

GOODWILL

I am nothing, mate.
I can't stand the sound of my own voice, and I can't listen to my guitar playing without grimacing every so often.

I get on with people of like mind, however.
.... and I get paid the standard rates.

I long for the days when the 'folk clubs' can offer residencies again.
There are a few people, though, that are doing it on their own...

B.

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: Brendy
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 10:39 AM

I have one I'm doing in Montreal in january. Done on a 'handshake'"

That's when you know your troubles are over, Bruce.
I have a number of friends over the years that I have never actively discussed money with, at all.

I do have a website, AA, but it's crap.

B.

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: GUEST,AA
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 10:43 AM

Really? Why? Websites are an essential professional tool for gigging musicians. How come you don't update it? Can we see it anyway?

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: GUEST,Black Hawk on works PC
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 10:45 AM

Brendy - I am being quite serious.
I know of no performers on the UK folk scene who would be offered a contracted series of bookings repeated 3 monthly in our local folk clubs.
In the NE a performer is lucky to be booked twice a year at the same club.
Anyone who is capable of gaining this status MUST be worth seeing IMO.

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: Brendy
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 10:55 AM

Look..., please, Black Hawk..., we're actually defining 'folk-clubs', nearly, at this stage.

This whole subject should be a thread in itself; the original subject has morphed into why folk-singers give it up, into a few of you trying to look up my arse...

give it up, lads....

AA...
Log in and send me PM, and I'll be delighted to send you a link

B.

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: GUEST,AA
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 11:01 AM

Why don't you want to post one? Web pages are supposed to be public

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: Peace
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 11:04 AM

That is NOT your business. Not yesterday, not today and not tomorrow.

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: Brendy
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 11:47 AM

They are public, AA.
They are normally placed on what is called the World Wide Web.

Do a google search for "Gigs in Scandinavia" (if it's your job..., and you want to get on in your chosen profession)

You'll probably see my site in your travels.

I only advertise my site to interested parties.

B.

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive)
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 11:56 AM

Brendy - where's this fantastic folk venue in Manchester? It doesn't sound like any of the ones I'm familiar with (and there's not exactly many!). I'd love to visit it. PM me if you want to keep it quiet for any reason.

Cheers

Nigel

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive)
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 12:09 PM

Hmmm.... lateral thinking here - are we talking about gigs in Irish theme pubs, Brendy?

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: Brendy
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 12:14 PM

No thinking, Nigel...., read the thread.

"It doesn't sound like any of the ones I'm familiar with"

Not my problem...
Get out there and find them.

B.

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive)
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 12:32 PM

My last comment on this, Brendy, before I go to do somthing useful like cooking tea whilst listening to folk music by people who WANT other people to listen to and enjoy their work. You're a performer (you claim). I'm a folk music fan (read: customer). Yet for some undisclosed reason you want to keep venues where you might be playing secret from me. Fantastic business sense... what people usually do is say, for example, 'yeah, they've started putting gigs on at (insert venue name). Fancy checking it out?'

How strange.

My conclusion: you're just a wind up merchant and little of what you've said should be taken seriously. People usually don't mind evidencing their claims.

Cheers

Nigel

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: Brendy
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 12:42 PM

I don't have anything to prove, Nigel, that's why 'evidencing' my claim isn't important to me.

These venues I'm talking about are already up and running.

The 'customer' may not notice anything different; I'm more talking about the venue owners and the deal they give musicians.

I will only recommend artists to them, if they fill the criteria of being a decent enough skin and good at what they do.

The customer need not worry.
The standard is always attained....

B.

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: Jim Lad
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 01:42 PM

I think Jed has given an extremely accurate account of where he's at and that's really about as far as you can go without crossing over to the hospitality industry. Nicely done!
I'm addicted to three square meals a day for me and my family. To accommodate this addiction, I and others like me have basically crossed over to pubs, clubs & restaurants but there is good news. Those who really enjoy listening to folk music, frequent all of the places I play. They just get to sit on comfier seats and I get paid more, that's all.

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: Jim Lad
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 01:48 PM

Wouldn't be smart to post your web-site on this thread.
I hope you will once we get to know you a little better though.
There are some here who could probably help you with a web-site design or you could just use MySpace. Many do.
Cheers!
Jim

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 01:56 PM

I've seen Brendy's webpage; a year or two (or more) ago, he was perfectly willing to provide a link here at Mudcat, as part of a dicussion of some song or arrangement for which he had posted some very well-made guitar tablature.

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: Brendy
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 01:58 PM

I don't mind posting my website at Mudcat.

I wont be cajoled into doing it, though.

B.