folksingers who quit,and why?

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: GUEST,Warwick Slade
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 02:22 PM

Very intersting thread but, as usual, it seems to have been hijacked onto other agendas.
Anyway, as to the original question 'why prof folksingers quit?'
I have just taken a look at my 'Folk Directory 1970' and there is listed about 350 folk clubs nationwide. There are only 230 odd acts listed. If this is a representative sample it seems it needs about one and a half clubs to support one folk act. If the clubs decrease (and we know they have-read other threads) the demend for folk acts also decreases. I think it is called supply and demand.
Why did I quit? No demand in the first place!

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: synbyn
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 03:06 PM

Excellent pedigree, Brendy, but with the greatest respect not typical of the outlets in which many Catters perform- you've got a niche and obviously a profitable one. Those of us from Southern England don't have theme bars and diddly festivals to sustain us! People want the genuine article, rightly.
The market for English Folk music has not flourished in the same way for many reasons, among them being the willingness or otherwise of breweries to subsidise it. Of course it should be, but for many years it has been perceived as embarassing to sing English and at the sedate pace of the countryside. It's beginning to have its strengths recognised again, fortunately, and pride is allowable without all the usual suspects shouting it down. People like Keith Kendrick can make a living because they are good and are respected. However, I think many people gave up because simply the alternatives were better. Now there is a pool of good semipros coming back on the revival.

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: synbyn
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 03:09 PM

there's a missing subsidised there... an exception being Shepherd Neame, who promote music in their pubs..

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: Brendy
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 03:30 PM

Thanks for the kind words, synbyn.

But I don't go for the 'theme' pubs, either.
..., and as far as 'diddly festivals'..., well I'm not sure what you mean.

Considering that the idea of an Irish 'theme pub' is only valid outside of Ireland (cos by definition, every pub on the island of Ireland is 'Irish'), then the choice does come down to the venue itself.

I play the pubs over here: not the 'mad' ones.
They are Irish owned and Irish staffed, and contrary to some of the places you play, you could sing Matty Groves in some of these places at 2am on a Saturday morning.

The Blues clubs over here host Irish and English traditional; my musical partner for over 15 years is a fiddle player from Somerset, and we have done a lot of the legwork in opening up those kind of venues (in Norway, especially) to trad bands, playing the genuine article

It's not as if I haven't cut a lot of dross out of the diary over the years, synbyn but the phrase 'over the years' should be made note of here, too, and as I said earlier, I still think of quitting on average about twice a year.

It's not easy; when you're on the go, no day is simple.
That's why I'm cutting way down on the live stuff, especially from next year on.
I love playing; it's where I truly come alive.

But I wont pimp it, prostitute it, or pander to what people's idea of 'what Irish music should be'. And I never want it to become a chore.

Asd I said, there's enough decent venues out there.
More is needed, for sure.

I'm trying to help the Scandinavian scene, as are a few others of us, over here.
You need a few good heads, to whom profit margins mean little until things get up and running, in England obviously, who will unselfishly help carve out a few circuits.

B.

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: TheSnail
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 03:49 PM

Brendy

by definition, every pub on the island of Ireland is 'Irish'

You mean there isn't a Café Trondheim in Dublin?

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: Brendy
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 03:53 PM

Owned by the good Fergus from Dublin, Snail.... what's the point?

B.

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: TheSnail
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 03:59 PM

Er... read again Brendy.

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: Brendy
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 04:01 PM

I did.

I haven't a clue if there is a Café Trondheim in Dublin, and my ignorance is nothing compared to my apathy...

What's your point?

B.

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: TheSnail
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 04:08 PM

I was just intrigued by the idea that there might be a Norwegian theme pub in Ireland.

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: Peace
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 04:09 PM

There is a Cafe Dublin in Trondheim.

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: TheSnail
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 04:22 PM

That was rather the point of the joke, Peace.

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: Peace
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 04:24 PM

Oh.

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: Brendy
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 04:26 PM

There could well be, TheSnail.

But Guinness, The Irish Pub Company, Derry Bros., and all the rest of the companies that build 'Irish Pubs' in Europe, base them on that style of pub that is well known around Dublin City Centre; The Palace, Oliver St.John Gogarty, etc., not a hypothetical Norwegian theme pub.

I hope there will be a Norsk pub/restaurant open in Dublin. Lutefisk has to be truly eaten to be truly believed, and imagine all the Elk & reindeer (with Juniper berries + viltsaus) that is in season right now...

I find that when Irish people are in charge of an 'Irish Pub', they run the place a bit differently from the bandwagon-jumper-on-ers, that just want Whiskey in the Jar all the time.
they think this is the road to success....

If there are enough of these venues to support you, then happy days...

Café Dublin is a metamorphosis. I played at the opening of the first pub on that site (Dirty Nellies - Norwegian millionaire owned it).
That was 1996.
I played there a few times after that until I decided that I didn't need that kind of venue anymore.

Fergus took it over a few years back with a no-bullshit attitude; cleaned the place out, developed the restaurant, and pulls Guinness properly...., and insists his staff do the same.

I like tryers.
I can't stand chancers.

B.

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 04:34 PM

Some quit,because they like to be treated with respect,it is disrespectful to have a varied guest pricing system,it sends out a message to the punter,that the lesser priced artist is not as good.
Snail, if you dont stop this habit at your club,I will metamorphise into a Thrush and gobble you up.

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: TheSnail
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 04:48 PM

Dick, stop confusing the issue by continuing the same discussion on different threads.

Are you seriously suggesting that customers would pay the same ticket price to see, for instance, me as they would to see, for instance, you? Are you suggesting we should be paid the same fee or that the money paid on my booking should go towards subsidising yours?

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: Jim Lad
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 05:02 PM

Just a wee observation on my part. There seem to be a number of cafes hosting music, at least in these parts, so it may not be long before one can arrange a tour using these spots instead of folk clubs.
Dick: How much would you pay to see ME?

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: Kaleea
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 05:32 PM

When I was a kid of @13, I was performing in venues such as "coffee houses," festivals, colleges & whatnot around the US. It was fun at times, and very rough, & alot of hard traveling by car. No money to speak of, but I sure met lots of interesting people, & heard many of the best known acts. I sang soul & rock with my brother's band for a few extra bucks now & then, & hit the folk road again. I got married (he was in the US army-they drafted back then, you know), & played a little here & there. The last tour went to the far east & back. My husband insisted I quit the road, so I did. 3-4 years later, last concerts I did back then were at some Korean colleges & a couple of city concerts when he was stationed in S. Korea & I was there with him in the mid 70's. Funny thing is, none of the Americans had heard of me, but some of the Korean students had.
In more recent years, somebody was talking to me & knew me from his Grandfather's records. Ouch! He asked me to sing & play some of my "wierd" instruments at a couple of spots in San Diego. I took my Autoharp, Mountain Dulcimer, Penny Whistle & Bodhran. I was quiet suprised, as the kids (mostly in their 20's) sat very quietly & listened, applauding after each song/tune. They wanted to talk to me way into the night, asking me lots of questions, only one of which was "did you used to know so & so?" (I did.)

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: Brendy
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 05:39 PM

I think there is a change coming, Kaleea; the gap between the generations is getting smaller as the years go on, and tradition is reviving, as there's not so much a bridge to gap as there used to be.

Long may it continue.

B.

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: Jim Lad
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 02:28 AM

Still waiting for an answer,Dick.

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive)
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 02:48 AM

My apologies for suggesting you don't exist, Brendy - now you've shared your website with us its clear you do. I'm now wondering if the sort of venues in Manchester and elsewhere you mentioned for regular gigs are Irish music venues: this is largely a whole seperate scene to the (English) folk scene in Manchester, sustained probably because a huge percentage of Mancunians can trace their roots back to Ireland and are activity interested in their ancestral culture. English folk music in the city, however, is pretty marginal. Not, in my opinion, that it necessarily has to be.

I'll not do anymore thread drift on this one.

cheers

Nigel

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 08:10 AM

JimLad.I would expect to pay the same, as I would for any other booked guest at a folk club.

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: Brendy
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 08:20 AM

Thank you Nigel.
Quite a lot of people around here do know I exist, so you must be new around here.... ;-)

They are folk venues.
Genre unspecific.

They also have no trouble filling their calendars, as they do the contacting of the artists themselves.

Anyway.....

B.

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: Betsy
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 08:45 AM

It's simply the opposite of those who don't quit ( health issues apart).
Those who don't quit are making a living (to varying degrees) at what they do . Those who are good at what they do are generally in demand and make a good living. Those of mature age group who are good at what they do,have become good with a combination of hard work, networking, and an ability to usefully use their dead time when travelling the country. Very important.
All this travelling for an hour and half show.
I admire those who make a living and stay happy whilst tramping up and down the country or should I say countries. Ergo ,if you can't make a living and are not happy (not withstanding being a lottery winner) you might quit,in the same way as aspiring professional sportspersons , aspiring acting professionials et al may find the life style too difficult ,and probably drop down a level to being a semi professional / or an enthusiastic amateur - or G.forbid - quit altogether.

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: Greg B
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 10:02 PM

Sometimes something you love becomes not so lovable when it's for
money. What tore it for me was a series of gigs where we were
to arrive at, say, 11 AM for a noon set, only to be told by the
'stage manager' that 'well, so-and-so group have another booking
so they'll go on at noon, and you'll go on at three' or some such.

Or the time I arrived for a group gig, having traveled two hours
on the train and walked blocks humping my instruments on a hot
day in August, only to be told that it was 'your turn to watch the
gate.' Did 'Mr. Impresario' ever think to get a NON-performer who
maybe wasn't traveling two hours after work to do that job?

Crap like that just takes the enjoyment out of it.

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: Jim Lad
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 11:09 PM

Good answer, Dick. Still, I think some are worth more than others and prefer to leave such things as cover charge, to those whose business it really is.
Took my kid to a fast food place today and got chatting to another dad.
Turns out that he's another folkie, exact same situation as myself. i.e. 52 Y. O., has very young children and gave up the music to be home with them.
Remarkably, he and his wife have opened a cafe. She works the mornings and he, the evenings.
On Sunday nights he runs an open stage in the cafe.
Goes back to a number of the things I was saying previously.
I think there's a trend. We're not really quitting, just shifting.
p.s. The burger was excellent, the fries sucked.

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: Fidjit
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 06:23 AM

My pension keeps the wolf from the door, but I still do about 15 - 30 or so gigs a year. Not all payed ones. I'll be 75 next year. I still enjoy singing for my own pleasure. (and boring others)

Same with painting watercolours. Who's buying?
Don't have any more space on the wall.
Change your pictures when you change your curtains. And when did YOU last change your curtains?

Changed my name to chas clark dot net

Chas

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: Brendy
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 08:10 AM

LOng way from The Dubliner, Chas... Nice site... ;-)

B.

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: Betsy
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 11:13 AM

......and very well you play and sing too Chas - bless ya .Give my best to all at the session in Oslo next time you're there - I miss 'em all.
Cheers, Betsy

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 11:19 AM

I can quite understand folksingers quiting and changing direction career wise, but I'm always surprised when film(movie)actors do the same. A number of reasonably well known actors have got out of the acting profession and gone into real estate sales or whatever.

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: Betsy
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 07:04 PM

Hi Tunesmith - Someone once told me John Goodluck became a big wheel in Insurance - it happens - and many semi-pros / top liners at festivals have quite respectable jobs , irrespective of their personal appearances.
That's life