Is folk music folk music?

Subject: RE: Is folk music folk music?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 07 Jul 09 - 09:29 AM

You can get arrested for reaching for your diablo in Sidmouth, although most of the local population have forgotten where they keep their diablos, so we don't get too much of it going on.

Do people who wear pointy hats have pointy heads, do you think? I've often pondered on that one...

Subject: RE: Is folk music folk music?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 07 Jul 09 - 09:38 AM

Punks were defined by their haircuts.

I'd say the trousers were more important - that all important reaction against flares which many of us adopted even before cutting our hair, as did The Ramones of course.

Subject: RE: Is folk music folk music?
From: theleveller
Date: 07 Jul 09 - 09:42 AM

What you call 'folk' trousers, I used to call 'gym' trousers because it's what we used to wear when weight training. I was gobsmacked when I first saw them being worn by someone at a folk festival who, obviously, had never been near a gym in his life.

Subject: RE: Is folk music folk music?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 07 Jul 09 - 09:50 AM

gym, gym, gymmy, gym gym.....

So, is folk music pants, then? Lawdy, I is so confooosed!

Subject: RE: Is folk music folk music?
From: evansakes
Date: 07 Jul 09 - 10:11 AM

"Do people who wear pointy hats have pointy heads, do you think? I've often pondered on that one..."

In some cases they do (according to Harry Nilsson anyway). If you don't have one (and your name's Oblio) you might even risk being banished from the Kingdom to the Pointless Forest.

Hope that helps.

Subject: RE: Is folk music folk music?
From: evansakes
Date: 07 Jul 09 - 10:15 AM

"Is folk music folk music?"

In my experience 'folk music' is mostly in the eye of the beerholder.

Subject: RE: Is folk music folk music?
From: Banjiman
Date: 07 Jul 09 - 10:21 AM

Gerry,

That's superb....... you should put that slogan on a T shirt. To go with the "folk trousers" obviously.

Subject: RE: Is folk music folk music?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 07 Jul 09 - 10:43 AM

Can anyone post a pic of 'folk trousers'? Do you mean stretchy easy fit type 'slacks' with elasticated waits?

Further to folk apparel, I've yet to purchase my 'folk poncho' for camping - and stitching on miscellanious 'findings' like feathers, badges, ribbons and bar runners... I'm going to start collecting suitable folk findings, and turn it into, well a bit of a wearable scrapbook I guess.

Subject: RE: Is folk music folk music?
From: theleveller
Date: 07 Jul 09 - 10:55 AM

"Do you mean stretchy easy fit type 'slacks' with elasticated waits?"

They're those loose, baggy ones made from thin cotton with a very loud print design. They usually have an elasticated waist and sometimes elasticated bottoms (unlike the people who wear them). Think harem pants for men.

Subject: RE: Is folk music folk music?
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 07 Jul 09 - 11:05 AM

Yest another wind-up thread that will in its time become completely circular
with added blatant self promotion

"this is folk music.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0zAr1t6nTE&feature=channel_page"

Subject: RE: Is folk music folk music?
From: theleveller
Date: 07 Jul 09 - 11:12 AM

"Can anyone post a pic of 'folk trousers'?"

The bloke on the right, with the black painted toenails (don't ask) is wearing folk trousers.

Folk Trousers

Subject: RE: Is folk music folk music?
From: GUEST,TJ in San Diego
Date: 07 Jul 09 - 11:16 AM

Does a frog have a water-tight aperture?? This is, obviously, some jester's irreconcilable conundrum, cloaked in an enigma and shrouded in mystery. Enough of this folking around!

Subject: RE: Is folk music folk music?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 07 Jul 09 - 11:28 AM

added blatant self promotion

Anything to oblige!

This is folk music:

Another old folkie singing a ballad to the wrong tune

Subject: RE: Is folk music folk music?
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 07 Jul 09 - 11:34 AM

no thanks, not the least bit interested

Subject: RE: Is folk music folk music?
From: theleveller
Date: 07 Jul 09 - 11:36 AM

"This is folk music:"!

YEAH! That's it! That's folk music. Like it!

Subject: RE: Is folk music folk music?
From: glueman
Date: 07 Jul 09 - 11:44 AM

That Long Lankin clip and others of the ilk were the background to a very cidery weekend earlier this summer. You are the green man SoP and I claim my £5.

Folk trousers look like climbing pants to these weary eyes. By their rainbow mohair jumpers shall ye know them.

Subject: RE: Is folk music folk music?
From: Folknacious
Date: 07 Jul 09 - 01:07 PM

Folk Trousers

Subject: RE: Is folk music folk music?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 07 Jul 09 - 01:34 PM

"By their rainbow mohair jumpers shall ye know them."

Aha! Yes, I understand now...

Ahh, that's the way my fellas mates know the err 'liberal' part of town (where they don't glass people). Funnily enough I've been considering moving there myself. Wonder why...

Never had a "colourful jumper" myself, though I did once have a pair of African print trousers, which probably fitted the bill well.

Subject: RE: Is folk music folk music?
From: Brian Peters
Date: 07 Jul 09 - 01:58 PM

What was the old slogan?



"Folk Music.... better than it sounds."

Subject: RE: Is folk music folk music?
From: theleveller
Date: 08 Jul 09 - 03:21 AM

"By their rainbow mohair jumpers shall ye know them. "

Ah, but they could be archaeologists.

Subject: RE: Is folk music folk music?
From: Banjiman
Date: 08 Jul 09 - 03:51 AM

My wife is an archeologist and sings a bit of folk....... should she have a really,really colouful jumper or a full ranbow mohair suit?

Subject: RE: Is folk music folk music?
From: glueman
Date: 08 Jul 09 - 04:02 AM

Folk singers, archaeologists, bodgers, face metal merchants, same fing. Untroubled by the problems of aesthetics.

Subject: RE: Is folk music folk music?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 08 Jul 09 - 04:23 AM

'glueman'

I asked: "What form would this 'new take' take, so to speak?"

and you replied:

"It'll have to stop pretending to be sung by pressed naval ratings and plough hands by way of Ewan McColl for starters. That'll never do. And those clothes, no, they won't do either. Absolutely not."

So that's what, according to you, The Tradition will have to stop doing (leaving aside the question of whether or not a Tradition can stop, or start, doing anything!). But you still haven't told us what new form The Tradition should take. Surely, you must have some ideas or you wouldn't have made such a bold assertion (?)

Subject: RE: Is folk music folk music?
From: glueman
Date: 08 Jul 09 - 04:33 AM

It's not for me to say what form the tradition should take, a living music will find its own way. I'm 'asserting' that it won't carry on forever by adopting cod historical modes of presentation.

Subject: RE: Is folk music folk music?
From: theleveller
Date: 08 Jul 09 - 04:58 AM

Sod the music, let's get on with the drinking. That's what makes folk music folk music - when you're too pissed to care.

Subject: RE: Is folk music folk music?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 08 Jul 09 - 05:04 AM

A couple of problems that I can see there, 'glueman':

- Like it or not many traditional songs feature plough hands, pressed naval ratings, milkmaids, highwaymen, knights, lords and ladies etc. So do we drop these from the repertoire, or what? If we throw these 'babies-out-with-the-bathwater' will there be enough left to represent a Tradition?

- Lots of different 'modes of presentation' have been tried for traditional songs and music: orchestral, choral, rock etc. What seems to work best (at least it's the form which seems to have endured) is the unaccompanied voice or voice lightly accompanied on a portable, unamplified instrument.

I'm not sure what you mean by, "cod historical modes of presentation" but leaving that aside, what other modes of presentation would you like to see tried, 'glueman'?

Subject: RE: Is folk music folk music?
From: Folknacious
Date: 08 Jul 09 - 05:22 AM

"cod historical modes of presentation"

Surely a historical cod would be a bit whiffy? Just like those folk music fans I suppose.

Dressed as a cod? Wearing cod pieces? There's definitely something fishy about this folk music.

Subject: RE: Is folk music folk music?
From: TheSnail
Date: 08 Jul 09 - 06:12 AM

Isn't that a Playford tune? Gathering Cod Pieces.

Subject: RE: Is folk music folk music?
From: glueman
Date: 08 Jul 09 - 06:20 AM

By conventional definitions 'shimrod' only the words and a tune make the 'tradition' traditional. So everything else is up for grabs, arrangement, instrumentation, idiom, style, presentation.

Unfortunately a whole load of other stuff got tangled up with those definitions, largely because of the enthusiasms of the original folk revivalists. A presentational mode that hints of a generalised agrarian past, what I call the Ewan McColl default, is seen as unproblematic whereas it is specious and arbitrary and resistant to vying modes.

Until the baby boomers go back to the hearth from which none return, we're stuck with folk signifiers as well as the tradition.

Subject: RE: Is folk music folk music?
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 08 Jul 09 - 06:25 AM

Will Skegness come out in the wash?

Subject: RE: Is folk music folk music?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 Jul 09 - 06:30 AM

You should check the meaning of "specious". You really don't I think mean "Persuasive".

Subject: RE: Is folk music folk music?
From: glueman
Date: 08 Jul 09 - 06:42 AM

specious:
having deceptive attraction or allure
having a false look of truth or genuineness

Subject: RE: Is folk music folk music?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 08 Jul 09 - 06:42 AM

The Ewan McColl default glueman ? you can't even spell it, MacColl.

Dave H

Subject: RE: Is folk music folk music?
From: TheSnail
Date: 08 Jul 09 - 06:44 AM

Indeed. What is The Origin of Specious?

Subject: RE: Is folk music folk music?
From: glueman
Date: 08 Jul 09 - 06:45 AM

M-I-L-L-E-R - McColl!

Subject: RE: Is folk music folk music?
From: glueman
Date: 08 Jul 09 - 06:51 AM

Kirsty MacColl - now there was a singer. Met her a couple of times, lovely woman. Heart as big as you like, fine song writer too. Her old man said he couldn't hear the words properly, silly bugger.

Subject: RE: Is folk music folk music?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 08 Jul 09 - 08:10 AM

A presentational mode that hints of a generalised agrarian past

Hear hear! I've seen many a singaround ruined, ruined I tell you, by presentational modes hinting of a generalised agrarian past. Everyone thinks they're Walter Gabriel - even the women. If it's not Oi've just bin singin this one to the sheep it's Zorry oi be late, oi 'ad to fettle the zoider press - and you know damn well that they've just got in from a hard day's chartered accountancy. Inveterate poseurs, they city folk be. (Oops, sorry - it's catching.)

Subject: RE: Is folk music folk music?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Jul 09 - 08:16 AM

As in:
Z-I-M-M-M-E-R-M-A-N - Dylan!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Is folk music folk music?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 08 Jul 09 - 08:25 AM

"By conventional definitions 'shimrod' only the words and a tune make the 'tradition' traditional. So everything else is up for grabs, arrangement, instrumentation, idiom, style, presentation."

Give us a flavour of what you're hoping for, 'glueman'. I reckon that if you're so insistent that what's on offer is, in some way, wanting, then you have a responsibility to offer concrete alternatives (not just 'wishy-washy' abstractions).

I'm told that Kirsty MacColl was very talented - possibly she was. She didn't do a lot for me - just another 1980s pop singer as far as I could tell.

I did meet her "old man" on several occasions. As a callow 1960s teenager, already sick of 'pop pap', MacColl's singing, and the songs that he sang, came as a huge revelation to me. Not only that but he was accessible and eager to share his knowledge and his ideas. He gave me the confidence to get up and sing - something that I've been doing ever since.

I would dispute that MacColl's approach to singing traditional songs was "specious and arbitrary" (I suspect that you mean 'not to your taste'). He had a deep knowledge and appreciation of traditional singers and singing. His theories on the singing of trad. songs were convincing and profound.
As for "resistant to vying modes", I can't comment because I don't know what it means!

Subject: RE: Is folk music folk music?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 08 Jul 09 - 08:36 AM

Ah but glueman, when Kirsty and Steve [ Lillywhite ] first played their music for Ewan, the first thing he did was ask them to turn it down, then he listened in silence throughout, at the finish he told Kirsty he LOVED it.

Try getting your facts right, it is so well documented.

Dave H

Subject: RE: Is folk music folk music?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Jul 09 - 08:56 AM

"Try getting your facts right,"
Don't be silly Dave - why let a few inconvenient facts spoil a good bit of corpse-kicking?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Is folk music folk music?
From: glueman
Date: 08 Jul 09 - 09:25 AM

Why indeed let a few inconvenient facts get in the way of a hagiography? He wrote The First time Ever I Saw your Face so isn't all bad and then er, became Grumpy Music's first saint.
Not my cuppa tea. Far too pleased with himself and disappointed at the rest of the world.

An UberGrump that launched a thousand acolytes.

Subject: RE: Is folk music folk music?
From: Folknacious
Date: 08 Jul 09 - 09:54 AM

An UberGrump that launched a thousand acolytes

Are they folk fish as well? Shoals of the little blighters that swim around the tank in tiny but brightly coloured Aran sweaters with their fins in their ears?

Subject: RE: Is folk music folk music?
From: theleveller
Date: 08 Jul 09 - 09:59 AM

"An UberGrump that launched a thousand acolytes"

Maybe it was because his renditions of Sixteen Tons and Sam Bass got such bad reviews.

Subject: RE: Is folk music folk music?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 08 Jul 09 - 10:00 AM

I heartily loathed MacColl until I had the misfortune to be given an entire album of his songs (recorded by other people), and the bad judgement to listen to it. Damn.

Subject: RE: Is folk music folk music?
From: glueman
Date: 08 Jul 09 - 10:01 AM

Well he won't do at all as The Future Of Folk, so we're 'narrowing' 'it' 'down' 'for' {["Shimrod]}".

Subject: RE: Is folk music folk music?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 08 Jul 09 - 12:06 PM

Lots of snide (remember that word?) digs and insults, 'glueman' - but no answers or any real substance.
Come on, 'glueman' put your thinking cap on and give us your "Future Of Folk"! You have got some answers, haven't you?

I'll make it easy for you. Here's one of your recent assertions:

"So everything else is up for grabs, arrangement, instrumentation, idiom, style, presentation."

Here's some forms which have been applied to trad. song/music in the past:

- Unaccompanied
- Accompanied on portable, unamplified instruments
- Orchestral
- Choral
- Jazz settings
- Rock Band Settings

So what else is there left to try? Let's see if you can answer this question without resorting to insults, sarcasm or evasion.

I'm not holding my breath!

Subject: RE: Is folk music folk music?
From: GUEST,Chris Murray
Date: 08 Jul 09 - 12:30 PM

Isn't this supposed to be a fun thread? I was enjoying it. Why has it turned into the usual nastiness and bickering?

Subject: RE: Is folk music folk music?
From: glueman
Date: 08 Jul 09 - 12:30 PM

"Let's see if you can answer this question without resorting to insults, sarcasm or evasion"

Says the man (?) who's made them his stock in trade. So you actually believe the traditional will be sung by Rambling Syd Rumpo tribute acts of uncertain temper in perpetuity?
That's a very grand claim - and most unlikely.

Subject: RE: Is folk music folk music?
From: glueman
Date: 08 Jul 09 - 12:33 PM

It's the grumpiness at its heart Chris.