Political Fallout At House Concert

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Barbara Shaw
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 10:26 AM

That's really shocking, Sol, and I think you did the right thing. By walking out in the middle of the first set, rather than politely waiting until the intermission, those "protesters" were making their own political statement. If they had wanted to discuss the issues with the performers, they should have stayed and discussed it with them, rather than asking you to forward emails asking for their money.

Let them sue. Sounds like they may have even gone with that intention in the first place, in this election campaign climate. They can't possibly win IMHO, and it will bring much publicity to your house concert series.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Mark Ross
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 11:18 AM

I recently heard rumors that some festivals include a clause in the contract prohibiting the performer from being "overtly political(?)".
any one else out there have any confirmation of this?

Mark Ross

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: SINSULL
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 11:23 AM

Wonder how one defines the nebulous term of "overly political"? Again, I bring up Tinky Winky - funny, witty,satirical and political.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 11:23 AM

I am 100% with Richard Bridge on this. Let's just vary the context slightly to see if the "protester's" position stands:

a) What if the performer was Vin Garbutt and he sang his pro-life song; would any pro-choicers have the right to ask for their money back? Definitely not!

b) What if the performer was Tom Robinson and he sang a pro-gay song; would any protesters have the right for a refund? Definitely not!

c) What if the performer was Pete Morton and he sang his song about Arab and Israeli children? Same answer!

d) What if it was a Christian band singing a creationist song? Pro-Darwinists walking out would be entitled to diddly-squat!

An artist is entitled to - nay, responsible for - stating his/her views. A spectator/audient (is there such a word?) is entitled to disagree, but not to ask for money back on the basis of such disagreement. There was no misrepresentation: folk was promised, and folk was delivered. The rest is huffiness, posturing and intolerance.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 11:25 AM

I think Sol did the right thing. Otherwise, where to do you draw the line? Should it cost you money every time your club doesn't meet some audience member's personal agenda? It's a public event - you can never cater to all tastes, political or otherwise. Whatever happened to freedom of expression? In any case, you advertised Magpie and you delivered Magpie.

I can't see that they have any grounds for a lawsuit either. (Did they specifically threaten one?) Their argument appears to run that they paid for "folk music" and felt they didn't get "folk music." Sol writes: They claimed that my advertisement for a folk music concert was a misrepresentation - but who is misrepresenting what? That argument would work just as well in the opposite direction.

If they do take it to court, it would be fun to see the venerable lawyers formally arguing that time-honoured hoary question:

[all together now, one-two-three:]

WHAT IS FOLK MUSIC ?????

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Jim Lad
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 11:31 AM

I'd have given their money back and let the performers know about it.
I'm no fan of Bush and usually poke fun at him once in an evening but that's it.
They are there to entertain not to insult the views of others.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: kendall
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 11:34 AM

Folk music has always been this way. Folkies expect it. I would have been tempted to say, "When did your lack of knowledge of folk music become my problem"?

However, they did not stay for the whole thing, then complain, so I would refund their money IF I KNEW HOW MUCH THEY DONATED.

Charlie, I know who you are talking about, and while I disagree with that performer's politics, I am a true Liberal, and therefore able to overlook his faults. Now, if his music sucked, I would not attend his gigs.In fact, I wonder how a conservative can make such great music! LOL

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Midchuck
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 11:39 AM


I'm always amused when the word "liberals" is used by the right-wing as sone kind of an insult.

I'm always amused when the Left assumes I'm right-wing because I put down knee-jerk liberals. I'm also amused when the Right assumes I'm left-wing because I put down knee-jerk conservatives.

Forming an opinion on each issue on its merits, rather than defining yourself as liberal or conservative and then adhering to the liberal or conservative position on each issue, without really thinking about it, appears to be the one unforgivable sin in political thought.

Peter.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 11:47 AM

As far as "doing homework" is concerned, how much trouble is it to find the artists' website and suss out what you're considering paying to see, before you actually go? I googled "Magpie folk music" and it's the first hit (www.magpiemusic.com). Their biog page* makes absolutely no bones about where they stand, and the internet is a public statement if ever there was one. Those dingbats have no one to blame except themselves. Would they argue with a cop if he told them "ignorance of the law is no excuse"?

---
* With the power of their delivery, Magpie is well known for their performances of hard-hitting topical songs. They are well-known as regular performers on Phil Ochs Song Nights, organized by Phil's sister, Sonny Ochs, since 1984. Politically, their viewpoint has been shaped by their life experiences. Greg began to play music in the early sixties as a direct result of the Civil Rights Movement. His father worked for the National Urban League, and members of the family became involved in local action in the Movement. Terry also began singing at that time, and spent many of her childhood summers with her mother's family in the deep south where she witnessed the cruelty of racism and the power of the Movement. She also was a witness to the shootings at Kent State on May 4th, 1970 when National Guard troops fired into a group of students protesting the war in Vietnam. Terry and Greg continue to reflect these experiences in their own work as they frequently raise their voices in support of the ongoing struggles for civil rights, freedom, justice, and peace...

In 1994, the Cultural Center for Social Change produced a 2 CD set of songs of the Civil Rights movement to commemorate the 30th anniversary of the Mississippi Freedom Summer Project entitled Freedom is a Constant Struggle, and Magpie was honored with an invitation to participate... Through CCSC, Terry and Greg have performed in concert with SNCC Freedom Singers... singing with them and on their own, songs of the Civil Rights Movement and other songs of struggle... Two of [these concerts] have been recorded and released on CDs entitled The Long Walk to Freedom and Songs of Dissent Live.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: theleveller
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 11:57 AM

"Forming an opinion on each issue on its merits, rather than defining yourself as liberal or conservative and then adhering to the liberal or conservative position on each issue, without really thinking about it, appears to be the one unforgivable sin in political thought."

Ah, I see. So that means defining people with statements like "folkies being, for the most part, knee-jerk liberals"
is a well thought-out and considered position, is it? Hmmm...interesting.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Jim Lad
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 12:07 PM

Regardless of political beliefs and whether or not the audience has done enough research before choosing to attend.... let's keep it simple.
Someone got offended and left.
Just give them their money back and move on.
In fact, if you know who they are, a wee bunch of flowers would go a long way towards keeping your valued customers happy.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Midchuck
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 12:16 PM

Ah, I see. So that means defining people with statements like "folkies being, for the most part, knee-jerk liberals"
is a well thought-out and considered position, is it? Hmmm...interesting.

Ayup. Based on nearly 50 years of empirical observation (assuming I've been observing folkies since I became one in the beginning of the 60s.) Not "defining" people, though. Just stating what I've noticed. Note the "...for the most part..."

P.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: fretless
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 12:30 PM

I wouldnt go so far as to send them flowers, but offering the refund would probably be reasonable when you look at it from your interest rather than in their's. Now you're faced with the possiblity of a wasted day or at least hours in Small Claims, and as my old teacher used to say, "Never wrestle with a pig --you both get dirty, and the pig likes it."

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 12:35 PM

"Someone got offended and left.
Just give them their money back and move on."

Sounds like an open invitation to freeloaders, if you ask me... Also, I'm not sure I'd want to live in a society where everytime someone decided something had offended them, we had to compensate them. I also don't like the sound of a society where everytime someone didn't get their own way they went mewling to the lawcourts like some great big crybaby.

Lets not support the abdication of one's personal responsibilty to behave like an adult, eh?

And let's not forget that everything being exactly how you want it all the time is a pure stroke of luck, not a right!

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 12:42 PM

Have you seen the hatred, and vituperative posts that result when someone mentions Maggie Thatcher on Mudcat?

JM

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 12:46 PM

It costs money to run a club and money for artists to travel to gigs, and nobody's getting fat on it. I can't see any reason to cut into your resources everytime someone gets offended.

So how about: Just refuse to give them their money back and move on -

People DO bear a responsibility to know what it is they're attending, and the info was freely available. They weren't forced to go. No one owes them diddly-squat if they didn't like it.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Deckman
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 12:50 PM

There's gotta be a SONG in here somewhere? bob

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Stringsinger
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 12:55 PM

As I recall, nobody has ever asked Pete Seeger or Steve Earle for their money back.
Or Woody.

This incident just shows how divided we are as a nation.

It is important to say in the advertisements of the concert that it might contain political
commentary that some would find offensive. (In short, if you are Republican, stay home).

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 01:02 PM

"They said they came to hear "folk music" and not "hateful political rhetoric". They claimed that my advertisement for a folk music concert was a mis-representation. They came for music and not politics. "


Magpie's politics are well known, and even for those who disagree with their stance, I would have a hard time calling it "hateful".   The message that they give is one of unity, not division.

Unless you have a set policy that is published in some fashion, I think the rules would be determined by local laws.

One BIG item that you need to consider - you are a "house" concert. That means a private home and unless your organization has some sort of charter in the state of New York, the individual who owns the home is probably the one who would be sued.

Regardless of being right or wrong, you need to consider the potential problems of unwanted attention can bring to your series - and be prepared to deal with it. Some towns do not take kindly to people hosting concerts for pay in a private residence. Would other legal implications arise if this were brought to light in small claims court?    You could win the battle and lose the war.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 01:03 PM

It seems to me that this thread has now gone past the point where people read what was written earlier. The Dogs at Festivals thread is a good example of this.

If you feel like posting please read all the other posts first because lots of considered opinions have been posted and some really stupid stuff has also been posted.

If after reading the lot you have something original to say OK go ahead other wise don't bother.

Best wishes

L in C

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: PoppaGator
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 01:03 PM

What I want to know is: where the hell did these two old biddies come from? And, is there any reason to suspect that they'd ever return for a less political evening of "real" folk music, and therefore be worth placating?

Political differences are one thing, but to characterize balladry in the tradition of Phil Ochs as "hateful" is a bit extreme. And, certainly, anyone should be ready to hear some kind of left-ish sentiment from any American act characterized as "folk." (Whatever the merits, or lack thereof, of using the phrase "knee-jerk liberals," the more likely political orientation of the typical US folkie is not a well-kept secret.)

That said, I would probably have given them their damn refund (or half, if I were thinking fast enough), just to hush them up and get them the hell out of the house as quickly as possible.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Jim Lad
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 01:04 PM

Just be nice!
They came for entertainment and in their opinions, didn't get it.
That's fine.
The hurt feelings would probably have ended immediately had they just received their money back.
As for folkies being free loaders?
Well I shouldn't generalize I suppose so I'll leave it alone.
Choose your battles, Sol.

So here's a suggestion.
The next time that you hire a controversial entertainer, inform him/her that the donations will be collected after the performance.
It's not the first time that I've seen attendance numbers drop for several months because a performer crossed the line.
These two ladies responded immediately by not sticking around.
Others may just not show up for a while.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Barbara Shaw
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 01:06 PM

I had a run-in with some people running a folk club who refused to hire Robin & Linda Williams or Ginny Hawker & Tracy Schwarz because of the gospel content in some of their music. Inspired me to resign from the board, that did...

Yes, divided we are as a nation.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 01:12 PM

Nothing anyone does or says about Thatcher is bad enough. But if she were a singer and I walked out of her concert, I wouldn't be entitled to my money back. Mind you I'd have been more likely to do a Chumbawamba. I might well leave if Vin Garbutt did that song, too, but again I would not be entitled to my money back. I might actually go to see David Hannam out of curiosity, he's a perfectly workmanlike singer and player (better than me, anyway) even if the content of what I've heard him do or seen written down is mostly vile. One of the functions of art is to shock enough to cause thought (and it's the thought bit that is usually missing from the lunatic right).

In common US parlance (not academic parlance) although it is in my view wrong to put it so, the words "folk music" seem to include a "tradition" (it's a bit short really to be a tradition, but, hey, it's a young country) of contemporary protest songs of rural, urban, and even suburban life. Sounds like it did what it said on the tin.

Country music has some on the other end of the bargepole, but not all the time.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 01:19 PM

There is one thing we have Margaret Thatcher to thank for and that is how the political song movement woke up to the devastating harm she and her ilk were inflicting on what was left of our industries and hard-won democratic rights and thus began the fightback against the complacent morass of comedians and wifty-wafty neo-hippy singer songwriters our so-called f*lk-scene had descended into. All in life is political, as I said before. But anyone who was part of the benefit gigs and agit-prop theatre centred around the miners' strike, Rock Against Racism and ANL concerts, the picket lines for basic working rights, Greenham Common, the anti-poll tax and welfare cuts rallies of the late 70s and 80s cannot but be aware of how the power of song played some part in salvaging some scraps of community spirit.

Of course, no-one was obliged to take part in these activities just as no-one is bludgeoned into attending a house concert today. But this does not negate the necessity of investigating content. I wonder how many people turned up in Victoria or Brockwell Parks 30 years ago expecting bland top ten renditions and a Tory clone intoning how they had never had it so good (again)? No, what they got was Tony Benn and Billy Bragg and Benjamin Zephaniah and Tariq Ali and Polly Styrene and The Clash, many of whom are still at it today. Because they are still oh so needed against such wimpish, blinkered pink-specism.

And just to include our transatlantic readership, last time I was in Washington Square it was still going on there too. Where it's even more deperately needed.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: CupOfTea
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 01:37 PM

I've seen Magpie a number of times & helped produce a Phil Ochs song night they participated in. I've also presented a goodly number of house concerts over the years. Sinsull's summation hits the mark very well, yet Bill D's feelings express another side of it for me. (they are good folks and good musicians...I don't go out of my way anymore, ...it's like 'preaching to the choir' for me. I ...prefer a program with a different balance for my $$$.)

If someone truly has no clue about what a performer is about - and with houseconcerts you DO sometimes get that curious first timer to folk music- and they found it too politcal for their taste, it was impolite for them to exit the way they did, yet eminently understandable to me. By giving them a refund (full or part) you show good will. By not giving a refund you're giving the impression that their indignation was an insult to you. You decide what your motivation is - preaching to the choir, as Bill D says, or growing an audience for folk music in general.

There are those of us who are passionate about folk music in many forms, avid listeners, promoters, performers, who at times do NOT want to listen to something saturated with the politics of the day. Call me an occasional escapist, and I'll not deny it. There are a number of performers I love, listen to, count as friends or close accquaintances. who are mainly political issue performers. I respect their dedication, I support their work, but not every freaking minute of every freaking day: it's wearisome. Issue this, issue that, this horror, that horror, the environment falling apart,and on and on.

Enough.

Now... I'm not saying Magpie does this - I'm saying there are times when folks want some sweet old love songs, or he-done-her-wrong-200 years-ago songs, or some social wrong that's centuries out of date songs, or silly songs, or songs of joy. Then if you put one sock-you in-the-eye contemporary issue song in that mix you get a number of things:
1. Variety - political activism isn't the ONLY thing folk music is about
2. Contrast - by standing out from the rest of the set in subject matter one idea may have greater impact.
3. Context - The uneducated find that folk music DOES address issues that have been with us for a long time (infidelity, murder, incest, infanticide) as well as recent ones.
4. Recovery time - One of the great things about groups who do sets of tunes between songs is you've got time to think about the last song before they whack you over the head again.
(5. Humor as a way to get a political point across is much more likely to succeed in persuading those who don't see as you do. Issue-oriented performers have a sad knack of being, or appearing, humorless)

And in a "let's not make a federal case out of this" vein - several areas have had trouble with their municipal governments over the issue of house concerts, (the Pittsburgh area comes to mind) so giving a quick refund seems a good way to calm the waters.

Joanne in Cleveland

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: topical tom
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 01:44 PM

Should we placate these kind of people and, God forbid, perhaps, in returning their money, persuade them to come back? Do we really need them and want them so much?I say, let 'em walk and,hopefully, not return.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Big Mick
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 01:46 PM

I just came back from playing a weekend festival, and read through this thread.

IMO, Sol, the answer lies in your target audience. The fact that these two walked out doesn't indicate to me that it is going to cost you much in good will. The overwhelming majority of folkies share the sentiments, to one degree or another, of groups like Magpie. And the audience does have an obligation to spend their money based on good information. That information is easily obtainable for Magpie. I would pass the information on to Magpie and forget about it. Those that think YOU ought to refund are wrong. You don't have the money, Magpie does.

That performer Charlie refers to is a pretty good friend of mine. His reasons for his views are well thought out. And in a large percentage of issues we find ourselves in fierce agreement. I have great respect for him, as he doesn't duck or hide how he feels, nor does he wear it on his sleeve. He is a principled and honorable person. IMO, he is wrong about GWB, but he thinks I am wrong too. And a better musician and entertainer is hard to find.

These ladies weren't mislead under any definition of folk music I know of. Would they have wanted their money back if they just didn't like the performers? If so, would you have given it to them? The answer to both is no. Move on.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 01:51 PM

"Those that think YOU ought to refund are wrong."

It is not that easy.   I do not think that the patrons deserve a refund, but it might be a case of Sol not being able to afford to win. Please give careful consideration to the house concert aspect. Our friends on the other side of the pond have had very little experience, and even in this country the rules are different from state to state and town to town.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Wesley S
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 02:01 PM

If you're worried about these customers badmouthing the concert series just imagine how they are going to sound to their friends : Y'know the other night Mary and I went to this folk music concert and the performers sang songs full of "political rhetoric". They are going to sound like complete idiots. I'd forward to complaints to the performers and see how they want to handle it. If it were me I'd send them some autographed CD's.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Jack Campin
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 02:09 PM

Seems to me that most likely those people DID know what to expect and wanted to make a statement about it. (That's what the walk-outs at classical concerts that feature modern music are up to). They WANTED to be outraged.

Fair enough but there's no reason why they should be given their outrage fix for free.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: SharonA
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 02:19 PM

No money back! The customers "came for music" and they got music! As others have said here, the customers could have done a bit of research into the act they were going to listen to -- googling "Magpie", calling the folk club and inquiring, or even just asking the person with the cash-box before they handed their money over. Since they apparently did not do this, it's their own tough luck. Satisfaction is NOT guaranteed at a house concert!

The ladies' threat of a trip to small claims court is, I think, an empty one. They probably already know they would lose (and would they then have to pay Sol's court costs?). They're just bluffing -- don't give in to them, Sol!

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 02:29 PM

No court costs in small claims even in the UK.

In the US costs are rare except where there are statutory costs eg infringment of a registered copyright.

I understand that Rabbi-Sol has carefully arranged his house concerts so that they are 100% legal.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Leadfingers
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 02:33 PM

As we dont know which songs WERE performed , or which songs created the 'impression' of 'political Rhetoric' we are NOT in a position to give ANY judgemnt on the rights or wrongs of the matter . However , if information on the performers IS freely available , MY personal inclination would be to tell the Complainants to Go Hang !

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: GUEST,Don Firth (computer still in the shop)
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 02:33 PM

I have to agree with Jim Lad's post at 15 Sep 08 - 12:07 p.m., although I don't think I would go as far as flowers. I might include with the refund of their money a small lecture, something in the nature of, "I'm sorry if you were offended, but it is the nature of folk music that, along with love songs, occupational songs, and ballads, it sometimes deals with social and political themes. Good day, ladies."

Nor would I go so far as to grab them by the scruff of their necks and frog-march them out the door, but the urge to do so would probably make itself felt.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 02:38 PM

When I hear songs I don't like at a show, I don't demand my money back. I just leave. I don't expect the whole rest of the world to make me happy all the time, and I accept that life occassionally does not go the way I would most want it to and a show sometimes does not meet my expectations.

For instance, I've paid for a couple of movies that I walked out of. I did not go to the wicket and demand my money back, though, I simply left. Period.

It strikes me as a bit pompous and self-centered to go demanding one's money back because some piece of entertainment turned out to be not to one's taste....kind of childish, in fact.

It's simply an attempt to prove someone else "wrong" for the satisfaction of one's own ego. They'd have loved it if the tone of the political comments had similarly attacked someone or something they were against...so it wasn't the hatefullness or the attitude that bothered them as far as I can see, just the opinion.

Well, some people have different opinions from you. That's life. If you don't like the show, leave.

You will know better next time.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: theleveller
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 03:05 PM

"Ayup. Based on nearly 50 years of empirical observation (assuming I've been observing folkies since I became one in the beginning of the 60s.) Not "defining" people, though. Just stating what I've noticed. Note the "...for the most part..." "

"Liberal" (except where folk music itself is concerned), I would agree with; "knee-jerk", in my 45 years of experience, I would, for the most part, emphatically reject.

The problem with sweeping statement is that they don't take into account nuances.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Jim Lad
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 03:06 PM

Ever sat in an audience while some eejit ridicules your religious or political beliefs?
I have.
Pretty difficult to get out of without betraying your own personal beliefs.
In the interest of fairness to all, why not hire an act which chooses to poke fun at Obama?
The customers were dissatisfied.
Apologize and move on regardless of the fact that I've just discovered that I'm going to be a Granda!
Whooooeeeeee!



Ahem!
Sorry.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 03:07 PM

I think it depends on the ratio of songs to prattle. If there were endless diatribes and very little music, I would certainly want my money back if it were advertised as folk music. I would not expect folk music to only be political music. Not one bit. I would expect to hear songs about milkmaids and shipwrecks and horse wrangling perhaps. Which all could have political overtones....I hate people yacking at me to tell the truth. mg

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Jeri
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 03:12 PM

It depends how much you want to 'make nice'. My gut instinct is that you probably don't WANT these people back. I also think you'd win in small claims court because you supplied what you said you would (it was for a 'donation' anyway) and they didn't like it. It wasn't inferior, it was simply not to their taste.

It's like someone ordering the 'special of the day' at a restaurant, then complaining that it contains garlic. They could have asked somebody before ordering, if they had known what the special was going to be before they got there, they could have looked up a recipe. They ordered it and took their chances, and they'll still have to pay.

It probably can be proven that these musicians don't make a secret of the political content of their shows.
You can probably testify that the women made reservations and donated money without asking about possible political content.
They bought a pig in a poke. If they do take it to court, I think you'll win and they're going to walk out looking a little less than bright. I also wouldn't think it would affect your reputation... not in any negative sense anyway.

If you want them to come back, you can refund the money and make nice. I can't see why you'd want them back.

Personally, I can deal with some politics, more if the political thrust agrees with mine. I walk out when I feel I'm being preached at, in ANY direction. If find myself not enjoying listening to musicians performing their typical act and I could have known about this beforehand, I would not later advertise my lack of clue by going to court for $20.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Janice in NJ
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 03:27 PM

In spite of all the good points that people have made, I would still give the women back their $40 just to keep them from bad mouthing your club -- and to give you cover in case they still do.

By the way, I meant to write Terry, not Toni, since Magpie is Terry Leonino and Greg Artzner. As people have already said, their music is often poitical, but it is never hateful. And it is always beautifully done, both vocally and instrumentally. If you have never heard of them, you should at least check out their website at www.magpiemusic.com/.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 03:55 PM

So these ladies objected to hearing political songs at a folk event!
What were they expecting, hunting songs, whaling songs, murder ballads, songs of mysogeny, rape, arson, disasters, family enmity, incest, bawdry, etc.? You put out warnings about politics you gotta include this lot as well.

I'm with the majority here. Let the judge have a chuckle and show up these over-sensitive farts for what they are.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Wesley S
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 04:23 PM

It might be fun to re-tell this story before concerts in the future. Warn folks that they can't expect a refund if they - gasp - hear an idea in a song that they don't like. Forewarned is forearmed.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Alice
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 04:39 PM

Isn't it up to the band if they want to refund, since, as you say, the collection was made for them not for you? What does the band say? Have you asked them yet?

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Maryrrf
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 05:10 PM

There is really no right or wrong answer on this one, and there are good arguments on either side. Once at our concert series we had a duo that was booked for traditional (we advertise ourselves as presenting only traditional folk music and make it clear to performers what we are looking for) but towards the end they included a very preachy, very clumsy rap style protest song that I didn't like at all and didn't feel was appropriate for the venue. And basically I agreed with their politics - but the song itself was just too 'in your face' - so much so that it put me off. A couple of young kids who think they know it all - "they've seen the mountaintop" and are enlightening all of the rest of us...that type of thing. It didn't go over well. Nobody asked for their money back though, and for the most part they got traditional music at the concert.

I think what I would do is reply to the email, copying Magpie, explaining that the suggested donation goes 100% to the band, and it is up to them whether or not they want to send a refund. Let Magpie respond as they see fit.

The women do sound like idiots !

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Zen
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 05:29 PM

I expressed my views earlier in the thread... knowing Magpie and their music and how they express themselves... which some posters clearly don't.

Woody Guthrie must be laughing (or crying) in his grave at some of the arguments put forward as to why these two fools should get their money back.

What were they expecting, hunting songs, whaling songs, murder ballads, songs of mysogeny, rape, arson, disasters, family enmity, incest, bawdry, etc.? You put out warnings about politics you gotta include this lot as well.

Steve Gardham puts it well given the subject matter of most folk songs. Hell, we won't be able to sing anything soon at this rate.


Zen

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Suffet
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 05:32 PM

Greetings:

Did the 1965 Newport Folk Festival give refunds to all the fans who came to hear Bob Dylan the folk singer and got Bob Dylan the rock & roller? I'm afraid not! You pays yer money an' you takes yer chances. That's the rule. Always was and always will be.

Now if the performers failed to perform, that's another matter. A long time ago, my wife and I went to hear Dave Van Ronk at a club in New York where there was a $5 per person cover charge in addition to a minimum you had to spend on food or drinks. DVR was apparently not feeling well, and he looked like death warmed over. He did one song, excused himself to go to the john, came back and did only two more songs, and then packed it in for the night. We asked for a refund, and the club gave us back our $10 cover, but we still turned up paying for the two overpriced drinks.

From what Sol tells us, Magpie delivered what they said they would. If those ladies had a complaint, they should have taken it up with the performers during the break.

End of story. Case closed.

--- Steve

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 05:32 PM

Here's something to think about.

Suppose it was not a complaint about the music or the politics. If one of these woman became ill, would you have given them a refund?

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 05:45 PM

This may seem a paradox but two of my passions are folk music and stock car racing. I am no right wing redneck though as I am a long time socialist who spent years as a labour leader.
jaqui said "Give 'em the money back and tell them that they are no longer welcome to your house." and I agree with the first part, but I would offer them a chance to return.
A few years ago I was at a race at Langley Speedway in Virginia. The race was rained out before the start of the main event. The ticket clearly stated "No cash refund; rain date admission only."
However, I was there visiting family and was to return to Canada before the raindate, so that was of no use to me. I explained to a lady at the box office that I could not return. She said that the track owner was in the office in back and she would ask him about a refund. He came out and was most generous in refunding my money although he had every legal right not to do so. I have returned to that track many times since and my admission total over the years has returned his refund tenfold. If his goodwill had not been there I probably have never gone back. Goodwill is more important in the long run.
As many of you Catters know I am not shy about expressing my views about right wing arseholes like Bush or his Canadian clone Harper. For the most part people on this forum express similar views but we are "preaching to the converted." If we really want to get a message through to others we have to make them think objectivly and to do so first we have to make them listen to our viewpoint. If they feel insulted they will close their mind and any hope of conversion will be lost. I would offer them first a "raindate" free future admission to an event of their choosing. If they refused I would give them a refund with a smile and still invite them back. What may be gained with kindness will often exceed the value of a small admission price.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 05:47 PM

Dude, they are sick already.

I'm going to forego the 100 for this, I fear (way too slow) but I also wish that people from the USA who happen to have politics somewhere to the right of Attilla the Hun would look up the socio-economic meaning of the word "liberal".