BS: Slavery still active-

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Sep 11 - 03:34 PM

That tirade of abuse confirms you unreasoning, obsessive nastiness.
"all these foreigners are perverts or criminals"
I discussed the over-representation of one group in one crime.

"You put this up to suggest that Ireland is a primative country compared to Britain "
Do you really believe that Jim?

"You ride on the shitty shirt-tails of goose-steppers like Looman, emitting the occasional squeak of support. "
I have said nothing in support of Bluesman.
I have deplored his use of language.

"You make racist statements, deny you have made them or blame somebody else for them."
I have never made a racist statement, nor quoted one from any other person.

"You run snivelling to "sir" when somebody comments on your racist behaviour."
I have asked Joe if you could be stopped from making attacks on me like this.
I think that you should stop it Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 13 Sep 11 - 03:38 PM

Elementary my dear Watson.

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 13 Sep 11 - 04:11 PM

As you may have noticed, I am not in the habit of responding to people with a plank in their eye concerning Pikeys. I want to make it clear that at no point have I ever made a derogatory comment against anyone of a different skin tone to myself.

I totally deplore the remarks made by Keith A of Hereford against members of the Pakistani community living in Britain, most I know work a 12 hour day. I have nothing but respect for the Chinese community, they work dammed hard and take more abuse than anyone I know from weekend John Waynes who can't hold their alcohol.

My old man went in on the first wave of the D Day landings, landing on Sword Beach. He took a piece of shrapnel in his right shoulder from a German 88mm.So you can imagine my views on bloody Hilter.


Right, back to Pikeys, I don't talk out of the side of my mouth on this or any other subject, like one or two here in the stroke brigade. If it needs said, I say it.

Like it or lump it, I say it as I see it.

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: gnu
Date: 13 Sep 11 - 05:30 PM

Lyrics www.allthelyrics.com/lyrics/clancy_brothers/...

The Jolly Tinker

As I went down a shady lane, at a door I chanced to knock
'Have you any pots or kettles, with rusty holes to block?'
'Well indeed I have, don't you know I have
To me right fol-ooral-addy, well indeed I have'

The misses came out to the door and she asked me to come in
'You're welcome jolly tinker and I hope you brought your tin'
'Well indeed I did, don't you know I did
To me right fol-ooral-addy, well indeed I did'

She took me through the kitchen and she led me through the hall
And the servants cried 'The devil, has he come to block us all
'Well indeed I have, don't you know I have
To me right fol-ooral-addy, well indeed I have'

She took me up the stairs, me lads, to show me what to do
Then she fell on the feathery bed and I fell on it too
'Well indeed I did, don't you know I did
To me right fol-ooral-addy, well indeed I did'

She then took out a frying pan and she began to knock
For to let the servants know, me lads, that I was at my work
'Well indeed I was, don't you know I was
To me right fol-ooral-addy, well indeed I was'

She put her hand into her pocket and she pulled out twenty pounds
'Take that my jolly tinker and we'll have another round'
'Well, indeed we will, don't you know we will
To me right fol-ooral-addy, well indeed we will'

Well, I've been a jolly tinker for these forty years or more
But such a lovely job as that, I never did before
Well, indeed I didn't, don't you know I didn't...
To me right fol-ooral-addy, well indeed I didn't'

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 13 Sep 11 - 08:00 PM

I suspect that calling people "Pikeys" is not nice. I don't know the history of the word, but if it is meant to be offensive, it would be preferable to substitute another word. Calling people out on behavior that hurts others is one thing, but if we could stick to the behavior and not the generalizations...and we all have behavior that can and often should be criticized. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 13 Sep 11 - 10:07 PM

I'm sure it isn't nice, Mary, and he's doing it just to see how long this thread will be left alone before someone closes it. He abuses the readers who understand the value of the First Amendment and hold their noses as they pass over his offal posts.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Sep 11 - 05:36 AM

"I totally deplore the remarks made by Keith A of Hereford against members of the Pakistani community living in Britain"
Me too - only difference - you have admitted your racism - doesn't make you any less the racist shit that you are though.
Your old man must have been very proud to have brought one of those he fought so bravely against into the world!!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Sep 11 - 05:45 AM

He forgot to say what remark he deplored.
No remark of mine could be described as deplorable.
Can either of you produce one?
Just one?

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Sep 11 - 06:07 AM

Jim, in your opinion, by your definition of the word, I made posts on the "prejudice" thread that were racists.
My opinion is that I did not.

I call an expert witness!
The most erudite Mudcatter of all!
Who has a greater command of the English language than MtheGM?
None.
He followed that thread and declared my posts to be free of racism.

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 14 Sep 11 - 06:46 AM

Gee, shucks, Keith. Blushblushblush!

Seriously: I make absolutely no claim to any particular expertise or erudition ~~ many Mudcatters are DPhils & PhDs and pundits in various fields and far more erudite than me ~~ or to any exceptional lingustic command.

But Keith is right that, in the posts in question, if I have correctly identified the thread referred to, although he, along with certain authoritative people, was critical of certain undenied activities of certain specific Pakistanis, I failed to find any racism aimed at the Pakistani community in general; and considered it necessary in the interests of what I perceived as justice to say so.

Insofar as my opinion is of any validity, that is what it remains.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 14 Sep 11 - 07:07 AM

It seems somewhat bizarre that Jim Carroll argues that Irish Pikeys have been part of the agricultural landscape for hundreds of years and that Pikey culture is a legitimate and part of the British heritage and needs to be accommodated. Part of the agricultural landscape Jim?

Of course, because caravan sites and scrapyards always feature in Turner's bucolic portraits of the British countryside.

The claims of "racism" are based on an incredibly dishonest intellectual fiction, one which governments are afraid of tackling. 

Pikeys are not by most definitions a race or ethnic group. They are Irish and English people who have at some point chosen to live tax free lives, and who tend to marry within their group.

This subculture, being nomadic, is by definition going to come into conflict with settled cultures – the two cannot co-exist easily – which is why they have always created hostility in Ireland and England.

Essentially your "race" tag is a scam, because if one defines an ethnic group by their behaviour, then any criticism of that behaviour becomes racist.

You are digging an even bigger hole for yourself this morning I see. Are you in government by any chance over there in the land of milk and honey and a bankrupt government ?

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 14 Sep 11 - 11:38 AM

Pikey is a pejorative slang term used mainly in the United Kingdom[1][2] to refer to Irish Travellers, gypsies or people of low social class. Pikey is also sometimes called a piker in the United States,[3] but a piker in Australia and New Zealand means someone who refuses to do something within a group.[4]

But "piker" in the U.S. is a rarely used term that ranks about the same as calling someone a "slacker" or a "bum." No big deal. I get the impression that the reason Bluesman continues to try to control the conversation with this pejorative word is because he's a relatively anonymous individual here and can't be held accountable for his slurs.

It's time to stop this thread. Or people who know who "Bluesman" is need to give him a verbal knock upside the head (or better yet, you be Moe to his Curly and give him a dope slap). We're tired of your slurs, and it's time for you to move along.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 14 Sep 11 - 11:47 AM

LOL what would a septic tank know about the situation ?

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Sep 11 - 11:47 AM

I again deplore Bluesman's abusive language, but Jim's is more full of hate and his is directed at Mudcatters (this one anyway.)

Just count all the shits and shitties!
See all the personal abuse.

Seriously Jim, to be so full of bile and hate is not healthy.
What have I ever done to you, other than disagree?
keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: GUEST,999
Date: 14 Sep 11 - 11:53 AM

"LOL what would a septic tank know about the situation ?"

Being that you're the turd in the punch bowl here, Bluesman, I'd expect you to have the inside track on septic tanks.

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 14 Sep 11 - 12:03 PM

Ask Sherlock Holmes, Watson.

Here is the link Bruce.
http://www.rickross.com/groups/irish_travelers.html

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Sep 11 - 12:04 PM

"It seems somewhat bizarre that Jim Carroll argues that Irish Pikeys have been part of the agricultural landscape for hundreds of years "
First hand information from many of the farming families we recorded in Ireland and Britain that bears out the fact that Travellers were an essential part of the rural economy right up to the middle of the 20th century is to be found in abundance in our collection at the British Library.
Huge amounts of evidence in the writings of Hamish Henderson, Norman Dodds, Sharon and George Gmelch, Artelia Court and Alen McWeeney.
Probably the most authorative work on English gypsies is by Angus Fraser, a civil servant and Chairman of the Board of Customs and Excise for HMG (The Gypsies - part of the People of Europe series Blackwell publishers 1992 - re-printed twice)
Periodicals like 'Scottish Studies', 'Tocher' 'Bealoideas' 'Folklore', 'The Folksong Journal' all carry masses of information on the Travellers role in rural life - perhaps you can find somebosy to read some of it to you sometime.
More information from School of Scottish Studies, Aberdeen University, Limerick and Galway Universities, University College Dublin
Now can you tell us where we can find your view verified in any way (apart from the fascist rags that don't even make it to the bookshops)
"Pikeys are not by most definitions a race or ethnic group."
Travellers are a recognised ethnic group - you've had the quote from the Times - perhaps you couldn't get anyone to read if for you first time round, so here it is again:

1,000 years of prejudice, hatred and distrust
There are few tales that begin in the Indian sub-continent and Irish marshlands during the first millennium after the birth of Christ and reach Basildon in Essex 1,000 years later.
In between there are travels through eastern Europe, Irish famines and Nazi killing camps. Then there are the prejudices, the disputes and the clashing of communities. The history of the 300,000-strong travelling communities, now encamped on 8,000-plus pitches in England, is complex.
First, there are the groupings: the Roma, who are believed to have emerged from Asia 1,000 years ago and to have split into the Romany of western Europe, the Domari of the Middle East and Eastern Europe and the Lomavren of Central Europe.
The Irish Travellers refer to themselves as Pavees and share a common language, Shelta. A study earlier this year provided DNA evidence that it is a distinct ethnic minority, which separated from the settled Irish community between 1,000 and 2,000 years ago. Previously, it was believed that they were landowners who took to the road during the Great Famine. In 2000, they were ruled to be a distinct ethnic group, while Gypsies gained this status in 1976.
Then there are the New Age travellers whose crusty roots lie in the hippy culture of the mid-20th century. One can also throw in a sprinkling of Scottish Travellers, with their own musical and linguistic traditions dating back to the 12th century, and the Travelling Showpeople who have entertained generations with their fairgrounds and circuses.
Gypsies were one of the ethnic groups targeted by the Nazis. At least 250,000 were killed in the Holocaust.

You boasted of your father's part in the war, yet you make it clear that you would applaud a repeat of the massacre of three quarters of a million gypsies by the same breed of scum that he fought.

"I call an expert witness!"
Sorry Keith - evidence over-rides character witnesses in any court, especially the one you have produced here - hardly unbiased.
Your suggestion that all male Pakistanis are culturally inclined to paedophelia speaks for itself - it's nobody else's statement, and even if it was, it really doesn't matter - it's an incredible piece of racist stereortyping - and it's yours alone. You have never produced an actual quote from anybody saying such, "All male Pakistanis......". You put it forward as your belief, and your putting it forward makes it your responsibility. Such a piece of non- researched shite would put a whole community under suspicion in respect to children's welfare were it to be taken seriously - thankfully it belongs to you only - alongside the BNP, English Defence League and other racists.
Unlike speech, the problem with putting something on a public forum is that you can't un-write it - it's there as a reference point for as long as it's archived.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Sep 11 - 12:13 PM

Certainly my impression on the Pakistani thread was that Keith was saying that there was something wrong with Pakistanis or Pakistani culture.

Even White Man's current praises of people however, portray those people as types not individuals. Plainly he sees the ethnic or societal difference and proceeds to generalise.

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 14 Sep 11 - 12:20 PM

"especially the one you have produced here - hardly unbiased."

,.,.

In what way do you consider me 'biased', Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Sep 11 - 01:29 PM

"Did you copy that from this week's "Ireland's Own" Jim ? "
Came out of the Times - if you'd been reading what other people write you'd have known that.
It's the official recognition of Travellers both in Britain and throughout Europe, established by research not raised-armed-saluting.
Sorry about that - you're officially a racist as well as having been proven one by your own bile.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Sep 11 - 01:47 PM

While you are quoting The Times Jim, here is todays editorial.




"September 14 2011 12:01AM
Society must be ever-vigilant against the temptation to make bogeymen out of travellers. Frequently they jar with those who surround them. In the idealised tapestry of the countryside, the traveller site is the point at which the neat patchwork begins to fray. Even in a more chaotic urban setting, a society shares codes, practices and universal expectations, and traveller communities often seem to share none of them. Their very existence, at times, can feel like a problem. Yet history, in Europe and elsewhere, is littered with grotesque examples of what can happen when society decides this problem must be solved.

No one will allow a repeat of the terrible persecution that gypsies suffered last century under the Nazis. But the surest refuge for an ethnic minority is in the rule of law. So it is all the more shocking that it is the travellers themselves who are the ones flouting the rule of law with utter abandon.

Too many of Britain's travellers behave in a manner entirely unacceptable to society at large. Those with homes close to traveller sites too often live in fear of burglary or violence. Frequently, travellers have muddied the waters between being victims of dislike and distrust, and deserving of it.

The discovery of an alleged organised crime and slavery ring operating from traveller sites is a whole new category of horror. From a corpse found in a wood, to captives allegedly held at Greenacres site in Leighton Buzzard on a starvation diet, the details of the latest revelations are horrific. But the horrifying spectre of slavery in the English countryside has risen, in part, because of a wariness on the part of authorities to meddle in traveller affairs, and a willingness, on the part of travellers, to exploit this.

It has been suggested that some of those held on sites had been living as slaves for as long as 15 years. Some of those freed have refused to co-operate with police; others have protested that traveller families were providing a home and employment for those who would otherwise have lacked it. Even under this interpretation, we still appear to be left with a situation whereby vulnerable people have been held for long periods of time, earning far less than the minimum wage and in severely unhealthy conditions. This would stretch belief in an inner city factory, or even on a remote agricultural farm. We must ask ourselves why it could happen on a caravan site.

Through their separation from society, travellers do not thrive. Statistics on this community are vague, but what fragments are available to us are little short of horrifying, indicating terribly low life expectancy and high rates of infant mortality and maternal death. Less than a decade ago, Save the Children estimated that 10,000 traveller children in the UK were not in school, while another study found that only one in five aged 11 to 16 was in secondary school.

There is some moral distance between slavery and the flouting of planning laws. The shape of the battle over the travellers' site of Dale Farm, Essex, nonetheless, indicates a community accustomed to considering the law only as an obstacle, in this respect as in all others. It is vulnerable and exploited groups themselves which have the most to fear when the reach of law becomes limited. Planning disputes merely show that Britain's travellers must be held accountable under the law like all others. The horror of human traffic in the heart of England shows how badly they should want to be."

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Sep 11 - 01:52 PM

Have avoided doing this in the hope that Bluesman and his merry men might show a bit of humanity and recognise Travellers for what they are - human beings, but hasn't happened so far.
A selection of "Pikey scum" for the music lovers among us
Jim Carroll

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belle_Stewart
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeannie_Robertson
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Reilly
http://www.eatmt.org.uk/phoebe_smith.htm
http://www.eatmt.org.uk/phoebe_smith.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Doherty_%28musician%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johnny_Doran
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Django_Reinhardt
http://www.usscots.com/article/detail/Tinkers---The-Travelling-tradition-in-Scotland/

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Sep 11 - 02:24 PM

A refreshing view of travellers by Nick Dow

I must say I disagree with the marginalisation of any group by stereotyping. I do find it quite interesting however that while the type of broad brush stroke that is occuring here is considered so wrong, it does seem quite ,by some factions, to class me as a 'Bastard Brit' who has opressed the rest of the world for years. Simply because I happen to have been born in England.

Ah well, C'est la vie as they say in Hull...


DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 14 Sep 11 - 03:24 PM

Jim Carroll, the tall stories you posted here have been torn to pieces on a daily basis. Take a break from it, these guys above are lining up to supply the true facts.

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Sep 11 - 03:38 PM

Richard,
"Certainly my impression on the Pakistani thread was that Keith was saying that there was something wrong with Pakistanis or Pakistani culture."

Your impression was completely wrong.
I stated repeatedly that I had no knowledge of their culture and could not form such an opinion about it.

My case was just to establish that there was an over-representation.

Jim, I offered MtheGM not as a character witness, but an expert witness.
An expert on English usage.
If your meaning of the word "racism" differs from his, I suggest that yours is wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Sep 11 - 03:38 PM

akenaton
The Times has been scrupulously fair on the Dale Farm issue and most of above is no exception - good and bad in all communities and all the crimes mentioned so far not only take place in the settled community but almost certainly originated there.
Up to he eighties the officially recognised most common crime among Travellers was driving without tax or insurance - it took a mass exodus into the towns and cities for them to pick up real bad habits.
As far as the law is concerned, the key question has been totally ignored.
The Travellers, by their very existance, have no alternative - if they stay where they are they will be breaking the law; if they move onto the side of the road they will be breaking the law.
Which is more desirable; that they remain on an ex-scrap-yard in one single, managable group, or that they scatter into hundreds of illegal sites all over south east England and beyond at the start of winter?
The removal of the law requiring councils to provide sites has automatically criminalised them as a community.
If they move into houses they are harrased and threatened by racists like Bluesman (assuming he has the bottle to back up his racist abuse with action); if they stop illegally they are moved on and/or prosecuted - added to this, in Ireland, if they are found camping illegally their caravans will be conficated.
Repeating Dalek-like "the law must be obeyed at all costs" is as crass as the people who put it forward - it is not an alternative.
'Bastard Brit'
Long time since I've heard that Dave, and certainly never in forty years visiting and living in Ireland, and never addressed to either me nor Pat (a London Scot) - I think the last time someone said it was a Brit claiming to have had it said to him - not to say there aren't any BBs, mind you, or Irish, Welsh, German, Yanks......
Don't know what circles you move in - maybe it's the company you keep
Thanks for the Nick Dow clip - breath of fresh air in the cess-pit this thread has proved to be.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Sep 11 - 03:50 PM

The Times of course supports "law and order". It is the paper of the rich and right wing - who can afford £700 per hour (or more) lawyers to eliminate the law as an obstacle.

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 14 Sep 11 - 04:11 PM

Here we go, "the paper of the rich" well if you had made it in life no doubt you would be buying it and not on here talking SH 1 T at every farts end.

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: GUEST,999
Date: 14 Sep 11 - 04:28 PM

Hey, Turd, rough day?

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: ollaimh
Date: 14 Sep 11 - 11:19 PM

the british justice system is one of the most hide bound and bigoted in the industrial world. when i was practicing law i recall the british lawyers constantly telling the reat joke:"the golden thread of british justice is innocent untill proven irish". good goddess do those who like british jstice follow the sad trail of wrongfull convictions and fabricated evidence.

even denning admitted thre american justice system was much more democratic and compensation and appeal oriented than the courts in the uk

when he was master of the rolls, lord denning siad that ir was a shame they had aboloshed the death penatily because tyhe brimingham six and the maguires would never have gotten public exoneration. their public exonaration brought the syatem of justice into disrepute. to denning it was better to han innocnent people than admit errors.

i do find the anti traveller stuff offensive. most of their problems are born of a lack of job opportunities. when we in canada had an influx of roma back fifteen years ago the bigots wrung their hands and cried warning. however unlike britain canada had extensive education for immigrants and after fifteen years most of them are now working at the first decent jobs in their lives and prospering.we have a refuge policy that if you get to canadian soil and can prove you will be discriminated at home you automatically get refugee status. one of the great things about canada.we have a country committed to multiculturtalism and wave after of weave of immigrants have been able to join in the mainstream. we have had problems but nothing like european counties with their deeply engrained bigotry and racism. i just hope our new conserrvative majority government doesn't disassemble the immigration. system

and finally it gets rich richard bridges calling people racist when he never finds a fault with the murders commited by his government and his army against irish people(and others)--repeatedly.there's no point in trying to educate keith--he's beyond ignorance

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Sep 11 - 02:32 AM

"but an expert witness."
Expert in what - I remember him when he was a good folk journalist, a long time ago?(never knew him to write about Pakistani culture - did you?) -
He can't find racism in the claim that "all male Pakistanis" are inclined to paedophelia by their culture?
Or that when you doctored your own cut-'n-pastes by removing essential quotes - that was a minor misdemeanor which we all did from time-to-time.
Do you think you could let me have his phone number in case I need a character witness - perhaps you can send it when you send me your source - in full for the "all male Pakistanis.... pimps" quote.
Isn't it time you stopped hiding behind "expert witnesses" and took responsibility for your own statements - stop being pathetic?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Sep 11 - 02:45 AM

Jim,
"claim that "all male Pakistanis" are inclined to paedophelia by their culture?"

Anti-racist Pakistanis Saffiq, Ahmed and Allibhai-Brown, all stated that the over-rep in this crime was due to the custom of men marrying late in life, sexual relationships outside marriage not being acceptable, and unhappy arranged cousin marriage.

I assumed that the proportion of males experiencing those customs would be close to 100%.
How far out was I Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Sep 11 - 02:50 AM

...and Jim, I did not doctor anything.

Ollaimh, so those charged are being set up because they are Irish.
All those starving, excrement smeared, shaven headed wretches are undercover policemen.
Cunning bastards!
How the accused must wish that you were still practicing law.

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: Penny S.
Date: 15 Sep 11 - 03:31 AM

I think it is very curious timing. The police have known about this since 2008, but it is now that they act.

It should be a reminder of the behaviour of gangmasters before laws were passed controlling them, and not what it is being used to remind people about.

Interestingly, it is also synchronous with a report of folks in housen murdering a girl with learning difficulties, which brings to mind other stories of imprisonment and torture of such people by housedwellers.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Sep 11 - 03:54 AM

"How far out was I Jim? "
About "all male Pakistanis" distance Keith
And yes - you did doctor your texts, just as you sent fake postings in an assumed name (and were reprimaded for same - as I said, a sad mess.
All on record
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Sep 11 - 04:08 AM

It's not so much the phrase (Bastard Brit) as the attitude, Jim. Neither is it the circles I move in - apart from this one! I was simply pointing out ,obviously too obscurely, that on Mudcat in particular there are times when it seems that stereotyping the white English male is the only permissible abuse allowed.

I could find a few examples I am sure but I won't labour the point if you don't. I don't want to drift too far from the thread. Glad you liked the Nick Dow clip anyway.

Cheers

D.

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Sep 11 - 04:10 AM

Jim, what % of males WERE exposed to those customs then?
And Jim, this was not my claim.
I reported the claim and said I accepted it, but it was not mine.

I did not doctor anything.
I did once post under the name of a Guest who was abusing our hospitality.
It was obvious it was me not him.
There was no deception.

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Sep 11 - 04:39 AM

Keith
You have based a condemnation of the ENTIRE MALE PAKISTANI POPULATION on the OPINION of one single unknown politician.
Here you have suggested (or "hesitated to suggest") that Travellers are "over-represented" in the crime of holding slaves in Britain.
You have defended the right of Bluesman to strut his fascist stuff as free speech and, from the sidelines (as is your wont) have gone along with much he has to say.
And you claim you're not a racist - give us a break!
I think you have summed up your outlook on life fairly succinctly - don't you - that's enough for me anyway
Now let these good people get on with the debate in hand - no more Alice in Wonderland rabbit-holes eh?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Sep 11 - 04:53 AM

Olly - you expected the British Army to stand and be shot at by terrorists and not shoot back? Grow up. My objections were to the terrorists not to all Irish. It was the UK fascists who labelled all Irish "Bogwogs", and I objected to that. I also object to the terrorists and their supporters singing songs glorifying the killing of the English. They would not (I hope) glorify the killing of Jews or Africans or West Indians or Indians or Pakistanis and they should not do it of the English.

But back to the core point here - the events reported clearly show that enslavement is not endemic to traveller behaviour patterns, rather something done by the very few, mostly related, yet White Man carries on pretending that they show the opposite. That is a pretty good exemplar of bigotry.

As is Keith retelling stories about how Pakistani common behaviour makes the men paedophiles. I wonder what the women do?

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Sep 11 - 05:03 AM

Jim,
"You have based a condemnation of the ENTIRE MALE PAKISTANI POPULATION (No I have not. Just a tiny minority)on the OPINION of one single unknown politician.(And all the others)
Here you have suggested that Travellers are "over-represented" in the crime of holding slaves in Britain.(Fair comment)
You have defended the right of Bluesman to strut his fascist stuff as free speech(No I have Not.)

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Sep 11 - 05:17 AM

Richard,
"As is Keith retelling stories about how Pakistani common behaviour makes the men paedophiles."
No. This is not paedophilia.
I always accepted that only a tiny minority are involved and that most sex offenders are white.
I just discussed the over-representation of a group in one kind of offending.

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Sep 11 - 05:44 AM

"Jim, do you ever have anything to offer a debate besides calling people racists "
Bluesman
I have offered my own experiences, documentary sources, and argument - you appear to be following the practice of your comrade Keith in not reading what others have to say.
As afr as \i'm concerned you hare an openly decalred racist - unlike Keithie who is still swinging on the closet door
In themeantime, back at the ranch:
From the Irish Times this morning
It seems Britain is moving into the Human Rights abuse league
Jim Carroll
PS Keith You wrote that YOU BELIEVED "ALL MALE PAKISTANIS" were culturally inclined to paedophelis, putting them all under suspicion.
No more on this - your nest is well shat in.

TRAVELLER RIGHTS BEING ABUSED, CLAIMS UN ADVISER
Dale Farm eviction planned for Monday

MARK HENNESSY
London Editor
The British government is fail¬ing in its international obligations to house Travellers, despite pro¬moting democracy and the protec-tion of human rights in other coun¬tries, a United Nations adviser complained yesterday during a visit to the Dale Farm Travellers' site in Essex.
Council workers continued to make preparations yesterday, including the laying of a tempo¬rary road across a field, for the evictions of up to 80 Traveller fam¬ilies from the site outside Basildon yesterday, scheduled to begin early next Monday.
UN adviser Prof Yves Cabannes said the local council was infringing international human rights in three key areas - the right of ethnic minorities to be pro¬tected, the right to have adequate housing and security of tenure and the right to be protected from forced evictions.
The Travellers affected by the evictions, who are living on land they own but for which they have been refused planning permission, were not "the ones breaking the law", he said. Instead, it was the council which had failed to provide the required number of Trav¬ellers' pitches.
Police officers are oh duty at the entry roads to Dale Farm. However, residents among the settled community and Travellers, the Travellers' supporters and members of the press are allowed access, The Irish Times found yesterday.
Grattan Puxon of the Gypsy Council said it would serve papers on Basildon council tomorrow charging that seven Travellers were unfit to be moved. He claimed that the Court of Appeal was on a four-hour standby to hear the case tomorrow.
However, the council said it had no knowledge of the last-minute legal bid. "As far as we are con¬cerned, we have reached the end of the legal road on this one," a spokesman said. "There isn't any¬thing more to be said."
Seven travellers have been examined by Dr Frank Arnold, who found that one is disabled and bed-bound and two have life-threatening illnesses and need electric-powered nebulisers, which, if lost, would "certainly" mean that they would develop pneumonia and "die within days or weeks".
"It is my professional opinion that a significant number of the residents of Dale Farm who are being ordered to leave would come to serious and predictable harm if they are evicted under present arrangements.
"For some, this harm would be irreversible," he said, adding that Basildon Borough Council's examination of the Travellers' health has "been conducted with a lack of appropriate medical advice, due attention to obvious health concerns and common sense".
Some Travellers living on the illegal part of Dale Farm are expected to move into legal pitches elsewhere on the encampment. Basildon council has said in a letter that it would not interfere with any such moves.
Former Unicef official Sir Richard Jolly has supported the Travellers, saying that he had watched the events at Dale Farm "with a growing sense of outrage", adding that the British government has "clear obligations" under UN law to protect children.
A Travellers delegation met the House of Commons all-Party Parliamentary Group for Gypsies and Travellers, where they called on communities secretary of state Eric Pickles to order a last-minute halt to the eviction':

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 15 Sep 11 - 05:51 AM

While you are quoting The Times Jim, always quote the full story, don't cut little bits out to suit your case. Did you not see this ????

"Too many of Britain's travellers behave in a manner entirely unacceptable to society at large. Those with homes close to traveller sites too often live in fear of burglary or violence. Frequently, travellers have muddied the waters between being victims of dislike and distrust, and deserving of it.

The discovery of an alleged organised crime and slavery ring operating from traveller sites is a whole new category of horror. From a corpse found in a wood, to captives allegedly held at Greenacres site in Leighton Buzzard on a starvation diet, the details of the latest revelations are horrific. But the horrifying spectre of slavery in the English countryside has risen, in part, because of a wariness on the part of authorities to meddle in traveller affairs, and a willingness, on the part of travellers, to exploit this. "

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: Fossil
Date: 15 Sep 11 - 05:52 AM

Mud-elves, this thread has gone totally toxic.

I suggest its immediate removal.

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Sep 11 - 06:01 AM

Jim, I did not use the word paedophilia.
I have told you repeatedly. and I tell you again, I do not regard it as paedophilia.
Teenagers were targeted because they were easier to ensnare.
"Easy meat."
I said I believed it only because it was said to be true by people within that community who are eminent national figures.
I made no claims about it.
My case was just the over-representation.

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Sep 11 - 06:19 AM

Or if the Irish Times doesn't suit all your racist
tastes try the English one
Keith - piss -off, you said what you said and it's all in print
Jim Carroll

UN COMES TO THE RESCUE OF TRAVELLERS FACING EVICTION
David Sanderson, Fay Schlesinger

The United Nations is to debate the fate of Dale Farm's travellers at a conference in Kenya after one of its inspectors visited the site in Essex yesterday.
Yves Cabannes, chairman of the UN Advisory Group on Forced Evictions (UNAGFE), said that the 400-plus travellers, who are likely to be evicted from the greenbelt site on Monday, were the victims of a "violation of inter¬national law".
The UN adviser said that Basildon Council, which is preparing to spend up to £8 million on clearing the 51 pitches from the site, was violating human rights law in three areas: the right to adequate housing; the right to be defended from forced eviction; and the right of ethnic minorities to be protected from discrimination.
"The people who are abusing the law are the council, not the travellers," Professor Cabannes said yesterday. "We are used to seeing millions of people losing their homes in Zimbabwe, China and Nigeria — how is one country unable to solve, the problem of 51 pitches?"
Professor Cabannes, who compiled a UN report two years ago into forced evictions of "minority communities in southeast England", has been invited to a UN conference in Nairobi next week to discuss Dale Farm and other forced evictions around the world.
Also invited are the four other com¬pilers of that report, including Candy Sheridan, a representative of the Irish travellers at Dale Farmland Joseph Jones, chairperson of the Gypsy Council.
In the weeks before and after its 2009 visit to southeast England, the UN advisory group led by Professor Cabannes had compiled reports on forced evictions in Port Harcourt, Nigeria, where up to 300,000 "slum dwellers" were being moved to allow for a waterfront development, and in Istanbul, where the burgeoning urban population had prompted evictions in poorer areas of the Turkish city.
Its report that year said: "Imprison¬ment of Gypsies and travellers for alleged offences relating to living on their own land has to be banned as a planning policy/practice, especially in a situation where the districts are fail¬ing to deliver planning permissions and to designate adequate sites."
A spokeswoman for UN-Habitat, which is organising next week's con¬ference, said that Dale Farm would defi¬nitely be on the agenda. This month another UN body, the Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimina¬tion, called for the eviction to be halted, saying that it would affect family life disproportionately.
Tony Ball, the leader of Basildon Council, dismissed the comments of Professor Cabannes: "The UN refers to the rights of the families involved. Basil¬don Council respects those along with the rights of the vast majority of its residents who want this illegal camp moved after ten years of stalling tactics by the travellers."
The High Court ruled last month that no human rights had been in¬fringed during the dispute. Council bail¬iffs are to start ejecting 86 families of travellers from the 51 illegal pitches on Monday. Essex Police are on standby.
The travellers, who own the land but have not been granted planning per¬mission, and their supporters have said that they will resist eviction. However, some caravans left the site yesterday and, according to a Dale Farm repre¬sentative, two elderly residents had gone to stay with relatives because of the stress of impending eviction.
There have been suggestions that some of the most vulnerable travellers from the illegal pitches would be al¬lowed to move to legal pitches on the adjacent travellers' site. There are 34 pitches, which can each take a touring caravan and mobile home.
Ms Sheridan said that Professor Cabannes's visit showed that the plight of residents was comparable with global humanitarian crises.
"We hear about forced evictions in Africa and China — that's what hap¬pening here in Britain," she said. "It's a massive abuse of human rights on your doorstep. The visit from somebody of such stature has left the residents overjoyed."
The Government defended the council's actions. A spokesman for the Department for Communities and Local Government said: "The British courts have found that the develop¬ments at Dale Farm are in breach of planning law and Basildon Council is within its rights to evict travellers from the site."

l300,000
estimated size of Britain's traveller community
8,000
or more legal pitches in England and Wales
2001
when traveller families first began setting up illegal pitches at Dale Farm
£8m
what Basildon Council is preparing to spend on clearing the site. Policing costs could also run into millions

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Sep 11 - 06:29 AM

Size of Traveller population should read 300,000 -- don't want to be accused of getting up to Keith's traicks
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Sep 11 - 06:50 AM

"While you are quoting The Times Jim, always quote the full story, don't cut little bits out to suit your case. Did you not see this ????"

Didn't cut anything Bluesman - that's the article in full - go and check on line - only Keith doctors cut-n-pastes
Now respond to what the report says
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Sep 11 - 07:19 AM

Jim: Thank you for the "good folk journalist" [02.32 AM]. It is true I do little of such now, tho still have a regular outlet for theatre criticism which was always my main journalistic occupation.

My phone # is not ex-directory & can be ascertained thru all usual channels ~ including the simple expedient of asking me for it if you want it. I know of no reason why Keith should know it ~~ we have never spoken & our acquaintance is confined entirely to communication via this forum.

I still await an answer to my enquiry of yesterday at 12.20 PM ~"In what way do you consider me 'biased', Jim?"

I repeat that I make no extraordinary claims to any particular erudition or expertise, though am not unappreciative of the compliment implied in any attributions of such to me.

Regards

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Sep 11 - 07:37 AM

Jim,
"Keith - piss -off, you said what you said and it's all in print"

Yes it is Jim, and everything I have said about it here is true.
You can produce nothing to support your constant attacks on me.
Why must you keep trying?
Everyone must be sick of it.
I am.