Who is packing heat this Xmas?

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: GUEST,jockmorris
Date: 20 Dec 01 - 10:04 AM

Jane 2001,

Thomas Hamilton (he of the Dunblane Massacre) obtained his firearms and retained his firearms because the police failed to do basic checks on his application form and failed to follow the advice of one of their own officers. When applying for his license to own full-bore handguns he claimed to be a member of a shooting club in Hamilton (you have to prove you have an approved place to use the weapons you own). This should have stopped him getting the weapons on two counts: firstly, he wasn't a member of the club and secondly, the club wasn't approved for full-bore pistols. The club in question is run by the police social club in Hamilton, so it should have been easy for the police to check whether he was a member.

When his licence came up for renewal (about a year before the massacre) the police constable who interviewed him as part of the renewal process recommended to his superiors that the application be refused as he did not believe he was a fit person to hold a firearm; his superiors overruled him and granted the application.
To me it seems very clear that the police were negligent in their duties and the problem is not with the vast majority of gun club members.
Personally speaking, I was quite happy when full-bore handguns were banned in the UK as I fail to see where they fit into the sport of shooting as a test of accuracy and discipline. When New Labour gained power and banned small-bore handguns I feel they made a big mistake. Many of the shooters who had to surrender .22 pistols now legally own .22 semi-auto sport rifles, which are more accurate than the pistols they replace and almost as easy to carry about. In other words, if the aim of the law was to increase public safety then it failed. However, I believe Labour made that law as a political statement rather than for safety.
Another interesting fact is that the incidence of armed crime in the UK has gone up since handguns were banned. Another indication that the change in the law failed to achieve the stated aim of increasing public safety.
Sorry for the length of this post, but a raw nerve was touched.

Scott

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: katlaughing
Date: 20 Dec 01 - 10:27 AM

Paul, thanks very much for the article link!

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: M.Ted
Date: 20 Dec 01 - 11:04 AM

One fact that no one wants to deal with is that there was a time when guns were not very much regulated, and gun related violence(and all types of violence) was fairly low--Demands for gun control, and gun laws were called for when violent crime(not all gun related) began to increase--they haven't solved the problem--

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: Airto
Date: 20 Dec 01 - 12:43 PM

A person carrying a gun is making a statement, even if only to themselves, "if someone pushes me far enough I can kill them on the spot".

Isn't the purpose of that to place yourself above other people?

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: Gary T
Date: 20 Dec 01 - 01:33 PM

Place yourself above other people? For some sad souls, perhaps.

Prevent violent immoral people from injuring or killing you and your loved ones is probably more accurate for the overwhelming majority of legal gun carriers.

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Dec 01 - 04:32 PM

Jesus, Mick-
Do you think yourself so fucking important that my comment HAD to be about YOU PERSONALLY? All you 'demonstrated' is that you don't feel the comment applies to you. Get a grip.

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 20 Dec 01 - 04:41 PM

I'd suggest that those who wish to rant at each other on a personal level take it to the PM channel. I find it works much better - And for once I agree with Guest - time to put a bullet in this thing's head.

Steve

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: gnu
Date: 20 Dec 01 - 04:49 PM

M.Ted hit the nail on the head. I would like to see more done to deter crime and to rehabilitate criminals. That includes raising the standard of living for a great number of our populace.

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: katlaughing
Date: 20 Dec 01 - 04:51 PM

Just one note to M.Ted, there was more gun control in the old West than some may think. Here, in Casper, at one time, it was the law that one had to check their firearms in at the sheriff's office for as long as they were in town. Saved a lot of barroom brawls from becoming even more deadly.

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: MMario
Date: 20 Dec 01 - 04:52 PM

Another interesting fact is that the incidence of armed crime in the UK has gone up since handguns were banned. Another indication that the change in the law failed to achieve the stated aim of increasing public safety.

Anyone have statistics on this?

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: Jock Morris
Date: 20 Dec 01 - 05:05 PM

MMario,

I don't have the statistics to hand , but it was widely reported in the media here within the last couple of weeks. Channel 4 did a documentary on the reasons behind the increase (mainly drug related crime) just last week.

Scott

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: gnu
Date: 20 Dec 01 - 05:05 PM

kat... everyone ? Even those who lived there ?

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: katlaughing
Date: 20 Dec 01 - 05:31 PM

gnu, my old history book on Casper is packed away and in storage, so I cannot tell you about whether the citizens did or not. Probably not, as the law may have been of their doing, an attempt to cut down on the rowdiness of cowboys coming to town after a long time out on the range. I'll ask Rog if he remembers, when he gets home.

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: Jerry Dingleman: The Boy Wonder(inactve)
Date: 20 Dec 01 - 05:45 PM

Big Mick,

My comments were not a personal attack so I fail to understand why you responded to my comments by trying to ridicule me? I did say that my observations were solely based on this discussion.

Anyway, I hope you have a nice Christmas,

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: catspaw49
Date: 20 Dec 01 - 08:00 PM

Say, this guy could be a buddy of Mick....from Michigan and all.............Check him out!!!

Spaw....just trying to lighten this one up because there won't be any agreements or mind changing here.

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: M.Ted
Date: 21 Dec 01 - 12:11 AM

I remember that from an old movie, Kat, I don't remember the name of it, but I saw it many times on TV in my youth--

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 21 Dec 01 - 12:27 AM

It is a sociological study to watch the responces - after Joe said, "This is a troll thread."

The "Reality" is... the MC.... slowly, ever so slowly, is becoming a TROLL HAVEN!!!!

Poor Max is not to blame, the paterns were developed six years before "he" sought his fame.

IF IT AIN'T FOLK Or Divorce It don't belong!!!

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: Big Mick
Date: 21 Dec 01 - 01:51 AM

Jerry, I apologize for the smart ass nature of my comment. Happens sometimes and I usually regret it. I am sorry for the characterization, it is obviously off target. As to the substance of the point I was making, I stand by it. You made the point that you see nothing leftist in my politics. On that issue you are incorrect. But the larger point is that the gun issue gets so weighed down in the rhetoric that people make these type of generalizations. The only thing that you could have possibly drawn from the posts here is that when it comes to my right to own weapons, I am firmly in the corner of the maintaining that right. And most of the so called logic on the subject isn't logical at all.

Greg.........you demonstrate my point again. I said clearly that my comment wasn't about my thinking you were talking about me specifically. You made the follwing comment "Its the bubbas, rednecks & conservative politicians who need to be brought into the 20th century, never mind the 21st. That comment is a gratuitous assertion. All one needs to do is show one example of it being wrong to disprove it. I used myself to demonstrate to you that it is an incorrect statement. I then followed up with explaining to you that, within the context of the discussion it doesn't matter if you like me or I like you. Your statement was simply incorrect. As are most generalizations.

Mick

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Dec 01 - 07:24 AM

Well, OK, Mick- if you want to play classroom games for a course in Logic 101. By the same token you can't prove the statement universally untrue by citing a single exception.

You didn't go to a Jesuit school, by any chance, did you?

Best of the Holidays to you-

Greg

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: Gary T
Date: 21 Dec 01 - 08:14 AM

M.Ted, I'm thinking the movie to which you refer is "Rio Bravo," with John Wayne, Dean Martin, Ricky Nelson, and Walter Brennan.

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: Jeri
Date: 21 Dec 01 - 08:46 AM

If a person believes X, they must also believe Y...
Folks get the idea of what a "liberal" looks like from what the media feeds to them, and when a person has ideas that don't fit your personal stereotype, the person gets accused of being messed up?! If you find yourself accusing someone of not fitting your image of what they should be, maybe it's your image of them that isn't accurate. Maybe you should be asking yourself where that image came from, and whether there are facts to support it.

Greg, you made a generalization about gun owners and said Mick "can't prove the statement universally untrue by citing a single exception." Would you care to offer proof that your generalization is true?

If you're arguing with Mick because he doesn't believe what you think he should believe, maybe your stereotype really doesn't fit everybody you think it ought to.

...and I'm another "exception."

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: Peter T.
Date: 21 Dec 01 - 09:03 AM

Hads anyone noticed that Pete Seeger carries a dangerous and unconcealed weapon with an aggressive slogan? Surely something should be done about this.

yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 21 Dec 01 - 10:08 AM

I voted for Bill Clinton, Al Gore, and drive an old Ford pickup with a rifle rack in the back window. It has a cowboy rope, a rifle, and a spotlight hanging off of it. I wear cowboy boots, have worn blue jeans all of my life, think the Grand Old Opry was one of the finest entertainment centers ever on radio and early TV, and play much more country than I do folk. I tip my hat to the ladies, open doors for them too, salute the Flag of the United States, know the words to the Naitonal Anthem and all 5 verses to America the Beautiful. I believe in the right of free speech, defending those who can't (in the words of my friend PJ "De Oppresso liber"), and know that many things worth everything can't be bought.

I believe that friendship is all that is really worth anything, music is the heart and soul of love, and that a red neck means you work in the great outdoors. I believe in God, but don't go to church, I believe in gatherings, but rarely participate with more than a handful of friends, I fought for my country, and grieve for my friends. I fit Jeff Foxworthy's definition of a redneck and yet find myself on both ends of the spectrum - neither liberal or conservative - somewhere in the middle sphere. Oriented, confused, full of life, and been refered to as "Bubba" by those that don't know me very well.

There is no defining one's position. We are all of that great mass called humanity. And our positions shift from day to day and situation to situation. Some of us carry guns and some don't - some of us worry about trivial crap and some of us worry about nothing. I Thank the Good Lord that I live in a place that gives me the right to make choices about these things and to argue with others about it. I think it helps me clarify my position when I enter the debate on what is correct and what is not. My mind may not get changed but it certainly provides me with food for thought. I certainly enjoy the views of others from places so much different from mine as they have a historical litany that prescribes a different way of thinking and feeling about things I take for granted.

You all have a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.

Steve (Who thinks he may be more Bubba than whatever the alternative is - *BG*)

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Dec 01 - 01:14 PM

Jeri-

Actually, I made a statement about bubbas, rednecks, and conservative politicians. How you, Mick, or anyone else chooses to interpret that statement is your problem, not mine!
The "pry it from my cold, dead hands" syndrome is only one-and not necessarily the main- component of "bubba-ism", "redneck-ism" and/or conservatism.

I'm not arguing with anyone- just responding to random potshots taken at me personally.

As for your 'stereotypes' comment, though its none of your bloody business, I'll make you a present of the fact that I was a life member of the NRA for many years & turned my membership card in & told them what they could do with it about the same time Bush Senior did (one of the few decent gestures he's ever made)- after the organization veered hopelessly to the right and forgot its basic principles and purposes.

Regards, Greg

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: Jeri
Date: 21 Dec 01 - 01:30 PM

Greg, I think we may have a case of misunderstanding here. Threads about controversial issues often wind up with folks just looking for an excuse to jump on someone else. When I re-read your comments, you seemed to be talking about folks with a certain mind-set. What's missing is you saying those comments applied to everyone who owned a gun or thought others should. If the mind-set doesn't apply to you, the comments don't either. The "bubbas, rednecks, and conservative politicians" bit sounds like it refers to those who resist any gun control/safety legislation, and I'd be willing to bet even gun owners differ wildly in their opinions on that issue.

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Dec 01 - 03:18 PM

"Holy holy holy war God's right hand was in the car That shook the church, shopping mall."

Threads like this one suck.

Preaching to the choir.

We in the USA live in a diferent world. Very few can comprehend how much different than: England, Scotland, Wales, Ireland, Canada, Australia, New Zealand. We speak the same language (sorta) but then the similarity starts to unravel.

Wyoming is not Chicago (thank God!) is not rural Missouri is not the (San Francisco) Bay Area is not Alabama is not Wisconsin. So the differences begin to show up even within our borders. As tiresome as the old bumper sticker is(Guns don't kill people, people kill people) it is true. Here in lovely, peaceful, rural Franklin County Missouri we have had four murders committed by edged weapon and only one by firearm (in the last year). No firearm related accidental shootings fatal or otherwise. Three suicides, one by firearm and over 90 vehicular deaths. Our population here in Franklin County is just under 50,000 and we are the second largest county in area, in the state of Missouri. Everyone I know (and a great many I don't) owns firearms. Not one or two but numerous firearms. The state of Missouri requires all citizens who apply for a hunting license to take a hunting safety course and PASS it before they are issued a hunting permit. The course deals with firearm (and archery) safety in the field, in transportation and at home. Here in Franklin county we rarely have discussions about firearms except about what might be the best turkey gun or something like that. The only time we talk about gun ownership, banning of guns, gun rights, the second amendment, etc. is when it gets some play in the big city (St. Louis) press or on TV. I don't know of anyone who is irresponsible about firearms. I have never heard of or seen any incident involving firearms. For those of you in the UK: you have a long history of un-armed law enforcement personnel. This certainly used to work very well. I have heard that there are more and more officers being trained in the use of firearms and being required to carry them than before. You also have some very strict gun laws. It seems that you are experiencing an increase in gun-related criminal activity even as you implement tougher sanctions. As WE (NRA members, gun owners) see it, strict gun control will not have a positive effect on deterring crime. Private ownership of firearms is not a deterrent to crime, don't misunderstand me. The thought of thousands of armed "muggles" being ready to blaze away at intruders is truly scary. But the prohibition of firearms has created a source of income for the criminally inclined. WE in the USA learned this the hard way with the prohibition of alcohol. It is still a lesson to be learned as regards to "controlled substances". Prohibit something and you have created a lucrative market for the prohibited item.

I have carried concealed and un-concealed both (legally). I have had training for police reserves. I have taught a simple handgun safety course for armed guards when I was an employment supervisor for Pinkerton's.

While this all may seem strange to you who live over the water, it's fairly normal here and I really don't see that it deserves all the blather it has stirred up.

Let the Flamers go elsewhere and lets write of music, please!

thanx CB

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: Jerry Dingleman: The Boy Wonder(inactve)
Date: 22 Dec 01 - 01:37 PM

Assuming statistical averages of the recent past are steady, since the beginning of this thread on December 18, approximately 400 Americans, many of them children, many of them accidental, have died from gun violence.

About 100 Americans die every day from gun violence. That's more than 36,000 over the course of a year. The annual death count is about 10 times that of the World Trade Center terrorist murders.

Such a waste.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: leprechaun
Date: 22 Dec 01 - 06:21 PM

Just to help that nice fellow bareArms with his survey:

I wear a gun on my hip all day every day at work. I wear one most of time when I'm not at work. It plays hell with my sciatic nerve sometimes, but that gives me a great excuse to importune somebody for a butt and leg massage. I can't count the number of people I have pointed my gun at over the last 17 years. But I've never had to put any pressure on the trigger outside of the range. The closest I came was when a large fellow picked me up and threw me through a fence. My wig fell off. Then he was on top of me trying to hit me. He was drunk, and lucky for both of us, not very effective. I just held my gun away from him and blocked with my elbows until my partner arrived with his flashlight.

Last week I was preparing plans for a search warrant and I got a paper cut. There's danger everywhere.

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: jaze
Date: 23 Dec 01 - 03:54 PM

I've never touched a gun and hope I never do. It's a right I choose not to exercise. The only time I saw some sense in it was when the population of Kosovo was forced from their homeland. I realized that could NEVER happen here! To each his own. James

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: Jerry Dingleman: The Boy Wonder(inactve)
Date: 26 Dec 01 - 09:35 AM

This song by Joel Mabus is on his CD called "Six of One." I think that Joel makes an important point that *anyone* can snap at anytime. God help anyone who's around when someone with a gun, even a normally rational, safe and well intentioned person, snaps. It happens often in America and thousands of us die every year because of it.

A Virus On The Town

There's a story going round
About a virus on the town
It can strike at anytime or anyone
How your hand goes to your heart
When you hear the first report
Somebody snapped, somebody got a gun

In the schoolyard - in the office
In the church or on a train
Here we go, here we go again
Interview the neighbors, the lovers and the friends
The characters keep changing but the story never ends

Call the doctors - call the priest
Call the counselors of grief
Point the camera at the man who wears the frown
For the camera will not tell
Anything it cannot sell
And the headline is - a virus on the town

In a famine or a feast
It's the nature of the beast
To prey upon the weak and the diseased
Now there's an odor in the air
You can smell it everywhere
The taste of gun smoke on the breeze

And the fingers point to Hollywood
It's a storyteller's crime
Oh, the lobbyists are working overtime
For the ammunition makers
And the congressmen they buy
They're selling you "protection" and the pistols multiply

There's a virus on the land
You can hold it in your hand
You can fill the chamber with another round
You can pull the hammer back
And prepare for the attack
There's no safety with a virus on the town.

line breaks added by
- el joeclone -

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: Jerry Dingleman: The Boy Wonder(inactve)
Date: 26 Dec 01 - 09:38 AM

????

Why did the lines in the song run into each other? At least the verses were separated.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 26 Dec 01 - 10:20 AM

See FAQ thread, top of list. Line breaks explained, and more.

~S~

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: JedMarum
Date: 26 Dec 01 - 10:45 AM

Well Boy Wonder, let's put your absurd comments into statistical perspective. About 30 times as many children will die this year from car accidents as from firearm accidents ... about 11 times as many will accidentally drown ... about 10 times as many will die in fires ... 3 times as many will choke to death on swallowed objects ... and about as many children who die from medical practice accidents will die from firearm accidents.

Maybe we should ban the practice of medicine too.

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: Jerry Dingleman: The Boy Wonder(inactve)
Date: 26 Dec 01 - 11:07 AM

Jed,

I quoted the well-known statistic that, on average, 36,000 Americans, many of them children, die every year from gun violence.

I pointed out that that annual death rate was about 10 times that of the traguc World Trade Center murders.

I said that all of those deaths were "such a waste."

You then describe my comment as "absurd."

Absurd? I'm sorry, but I don't consider it absurd to abhor needless death.

BTW, I consider all of the accidental deaths due to the causes that you mention to be a great waste as well.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: Jerry Dingleman: The Boy Wonder(inactve)
Date: 26 Dec 01 - 11:10 AM

P.S. I don't know why even the most vociferous of gun supporters would find it absurd to abhor needless death,

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: katlaughing
Date: 26 Dec 01 - 11:17 AM

Would you both please cite your sources for the statistics stated? Thanks.

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: Jerry Dingleman: The Boy Wonder(inactve)
Date: 26 Dec 01 - 11:43 AM

katlaughing,

From: http://www.bradycampaign.org/press/release.asp?Record=289

"Statistics on total U.S. gun deaths (including suicides and unintentional shootings), as compiled by the National Center for Health Statistics, have only been collected since 1979. But between 1979 and 1997, 651,697 Americans lost their lives to gun violence, including 334,870 suicides, 278,865 homicides, 28,964 unintentional shootings, and 8,998 from unknown causes."

1979-1997 is 18 years. 651,697 over 18 years is an average of more than 99 per year, what I described as "about 100."

I have no idea where Jed Marum's statistics come from.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: robomatic
Date: 26 Dec 01 - 12:42 PM

I think this is a great thread, and we even got a song posted. I am a relatively liberal guy from the East Coast but I now live in Alaska which is kinda like Montana with an edge and lots of deep southern influence both in the flavor of Christianity and the ways of weapons.

One theme I hear again and again, and mostly subscribe to. The police are good at record-keeping and searching out the accused. They can't be everywhere. In a case of home invasion, the only help you're going to get is the help on hand, which is often the help you can put IN your hand.

Going back to my pre-Alaska days, I remember a hiking trip with an Englishman who, if I'm stating his observation accurately, said that the average Englishman, if not European, had a self-image of unimportance relative to society or the 'state'. This is not meant to be derogatory, the sense is that the average European doesn't seeing himself or herself making a difference. The average American had a much greater self image relative to the state, that he/she could make a difference, in fact, that there are cases where you have no one to rely on but yourself.

I'm not claiming the above is correct, neither was my English friend. He was making an observation on self perception. To finish it off, the average American was much more willing to take on the life-and-death issues that come with personal firearms as an individual question than those across the pond. And this willingness is more or less embraced by us as a society and even celebrated in the movies.

I wonder how our Canadian neighbors fit into the mix? I suspect they watch most of the activities south of the border in a state of severe bemusement.

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: LoopySanchez
Date: 26 Dec 01 - 01:45 PM

"8,998 deaths" from "Unknown Causes"? The Brady Campaign wouldn't be one to pad their stats to support an agenda, now would they? They're the same ones who count 19 year-old gang members shot by police after brandishing weapons or by rival gang members as "Children killed by handguns". That's how you get "30 children a day killed by handguns". It's a quite effective tool the liberals use to try to accomplish many goals.

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: MMario
Date: 26 Dec 01 - 02:05 PM

some statistics on drowning and near drowning in children here

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: Jerry Dingleman: The Boy Wonder(inactve)
Date: 26 Dec 01 - 02:18 PM

LoopySanchez,

The statistics quoted by the Brady Campaign come from the National Center for Health Statistics.

The Brady Campaign is headed by Jim Brady, former press secretary to President Reagan, and his wife Sarah. As prominent Republicans, they are hardly "liberals."

Jerry

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: katlaughing
Date: 26 Dec 01 - 04:24 PM

Thank you, Jerry, and MMario.

Robomatic, just curious if you have anything on hand now that you are living in Alaska? None of my business, if you don't want to answer that's fine, just wondering if your perceptions etc. have changed or not.

Thanks,

kat

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: Jerry Dingleman: The Boy Wonder(inactve)
Date: 26 Dec 01 - 04:33 PM

Jed,

According to the Center for Disease Contorls website,

http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/factsheets/fafacts.htm

firearm injuries were the second leading cause of death for young people in 1994.

If 1994 is typical, and I would assume that it is, then your stats would seem to be wrong.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: LoopySanchez
Date: 26 Dec 01 - 05:53 PM

Some observations, thoughts, opinions, etc.

The second leading cause of death for "young people"? Again, tell me that this 1994 statistic doesn't include criminal youths shooting each other or getting shot in battles with police, and I'll listen. Until then, it's just a distorted government-created stat at a time when the government wasn't too high on the concept of individuals' rights.

It's illegal to possess a gun in Washington D.C. Ask someone there what the murder rate is lately. (Guess what? They're not beating each other to death with garbage can lids!) It's illegal to possess a gun in Australia. Ask someone in Victoria how well that law has worked. (Hint: The murder rate there jumped 400% the first year the law was in effect.)

Under Clinton's Justice Department, The rate of prosecutions for Federal gun crimes dropped by over 40%. But it's not about enforcing the laws already on the books (of which there are hundreds, if not thousands); It's about government having total authority over people, and about criminals having the right to your personal property.

A last thought: Over 170 million people were murdered by the hands of their own governments in the past century. What's the first thing the government did in each case before the "cleansing" began? They disarmed the public. And it makes sense, really. It's easier to kill someone who disagrees with your policies when they're not shooting back. And remember, every person to whom it happened probably thought "It could never happen in MY country". Feel free to label this as right-wing militia, mountain-man-crazy gun-nut talk. You'd be wrong, but you're entitled to your opinion. I don't like "wings", I prefer breasts and thighs. I do sometimes wonder how quickly the left would change its mind about disarming the public if a nut-job like Pat Robertson or Pat Buchanan or Jerry Falwell ever managed to connive their way into the White House, and the Senate chambers overflowed with religious zealots. Remember, the government is our friend...We don't need guns, because the government is there to take care of us... I have to admit I would find it hillarious, patriotic, and ironic to see some tick-infested Berkley Hippie Relic trying to figure out which end of a rifle to fire as the troops marched in to take him prisoner and burn his stash. Ok, my blood sugar's low enough for the afternoon. Hope this has been entertaining and educational to some extent...

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: katlaughing
Date: 26 Dec 01 - 06:44 PM

As far as some of us are concerned, Loopy (good choice there) the White House has been taken over by religious zealots.

Oh, and, I've never been to Berkley, never had a stash, have no ticks, and would have no problem loading, aiming and firing a rifle. So...if you don't want to be labelled as a right-wing militia, mountain-man-crazy gun-nut, maybe we can dispense with the generalisations.

kat

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: GUEST,Artemis
Date: 26 Dec 01 - 07:31 PM

I would like to see all citizens be required to have the same training and psychological tests as our peace officers, in order to carry a gun. I would want those tests to be yearly and to cost appropriately.

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: GUEST, - Logged out, to remain anon
Date: 26 Dec 01 - 09:09 PM

I assign the same level of probability to the need for citizens to arm themselves against the powers that be, as I assign to the citizens needing to arm themselves again against the Redcoats attacking....

Make of that what you will in the context of this thread..

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 26 Dec 01 - 11:44 PM

Well Jerry - I have taken enough statistic's classes to know that they are all skewed to the statistician's view. And yes - even the Health Department skews them.

I think what Jed was stating is that your assumption of 33,000 children killed each year by a handgun is ludicrous. And it is ludicrous. During our years in Viet Nam we lost about 8,000 troops each year, that is an average as during 1968 we lost a bit more, and total losses from the war came to roughly 60,000. Now I don't know about you but I remember that during the war everyone knew someone who had a family member killed during the war.

So let us extrapolate a bit. If we lost 33,000 kids each year wouldn't each and every person in this thread know at leat one dead kid? Well we don't. It may not be statistically correct but it is reality. And your 33,000 is pulled from total deaths (assuming that is true) each year - not just kids.

So let's go to the other extreme. The NRA, bless their souls, says that there are well over a half million crimes that aren't committed due to firearm ownership. Now where did they get that one? If the crime wasn't committed how did we know?

It's the same with domestic violence, child abductions, and a host of other extremist versions of the truth that give us the "Oh my God!! Let's add another worthless law to our overburdened system." folks.

Stand up for your convictions - but get real about your stats, your mission, and your purpose.

Steve

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: JedMarum
Date: 27 Dec 01 - 12:03 AM

I used the stats from a 1995 National Center for Health Statistics report and did a littel math. The point I wished to make was very simply that there are many many ways that accidents take the lives of our children every day - and in truth, firearms accidents are among the very lowest. The firearm accidental deaths, as sad as they are have been a low percentage, and have steadily decreased over the years. They are among the lowest type of accidents counted. To consider curtail my constitutional rights as a result of these few accidental deaths is ludicrous - as I said, the accidental death rate for children from firearms is about as low as the accidental death rate from medical practice accidents. I don't hear anyone talking about stopping medical practice for children.

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: katlaughing
Date: 27 Dec 01 - 12:27 AM

Just a note: Jerry did say from "gun violence" not just from "accidents."