An English Folk Awards..?

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: irishenglish
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 10:51 AM

Walk away while you can-this guy doesn't answer questions-just keeps linking back to the beginning of his website.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 12:22 PM

"........but would a Scot (with some African ancestry) singing it ("The Visitor") be eligible for your "English" folk awards?" (Banjiman/citternman..?)...Yes, as I said, it's a self-penned English folk song, and, as a couple, you two abide in England now.
To Joe: I'm abiding in, rather than visiting, England, now, so I practise/perform English songs and hymns, whilst listening to others from around the world.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Banjiman
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 12:39 PM

Thank you for answering a straight question WAV...... so why call them "English" why try and sort things on nationalistic lines? These are false divisions that breed unhealthy competition & war. Why would it matter if we lived in Scotland and Wendy had written the same song.....or if she was from Hong Kong?

I really don't feel our culture is under so much threat (in fact it is constantly enriched by mixing with other cultures) that we have to pull up the drawbridges and try to be exclusive. .....why do you think this is important? I would be grateful if you don't refer me back to your life's work but gave me a straight answer on this one as well.

Thanks

By the way, I wouldn't know where to start with a cittern.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 12:59 PM

To Banjiman: it's not just in England, of course, where folks are singing with American, rather than their own, accents, performing the music of other nations, etc.; but I can't think of any nation where this process is occuring more than it is in England - Show of Hands, e.g., may not agree with me on everything, but they have also felt the urge to at least try and do something about it, hence, "Roots".

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 01:20 PM

WAV repeats, yet again, "I too APPRECIATE "Good songs, things and people come form (sic) all over the globe."

as long as those good things stay where they are and don't dare come to England. A variation WAV's old I love multiculturalism (as long as England is multicultural).

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 01:25 PM

"Fair point.....why are you hiding behind a guest name?"

Simple, beause this sort refuses to take responsibility for their postings, therefore the said postings have no validity whatsoever.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 02:44 PM

Speaking of Show of Hands, isn't their song Country Life a bit country-ish?

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 02:53 PM

Volgadon said, " Speaking of Show of Hands, isn't their song Country Life a bit country-ish?"

Oh it's not just me who thinks that then? I was beginning to wonder :-D

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: GUEST,Blind Cowman
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 03:01 PM

Volgadon, your last post had no validity. Your sort should take responsibility for your postings. Yet - the mutton and jeff one agreed with it. She's flocking barmy.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 03:04 PM

Oh right here' the master of not taking responsibility, Mr Blind Cowman or should that read coward?

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 03:07 PM

That's true, you two: they do lean a bit toward America in their style as they tell us to lean back toward England - I did, for what it's worth, say we "may not agree with me on everything", above.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 03:10 PM

Wait a sec, though I don't particulary care for them, I didn't say that SoH's entire set lists and recordings leant towards the American (they don't), Volgadon and I said that ONE song sounded vaguelt countryish, so please don't bother, you're only wasting your time

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: irishenglish
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 03:40 PM

Bollocks WAV. "As they tell us to lean back toward England." What in gods name does that mean. Who's next on your little calvacade of non-English English? Ralph McTell? Richard Thompson? Sandy Denny? Steve Ashley? Jacqui McShee? Steve Tilston?

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 03:47 PM

irishenglish, why do I have the sinking feeling that WAV has never heard of Jacqui McShee, Steve Ashley or Steve Tilston (he'll likely now look them up on Wikipedia, and profess knowledge of them) Sandy Denny, Richard Thompson and Ralph McTell he'll likely say are FAR too pop music :-D

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: irishenglish
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 04:08 PM

Actually he'll probably say that Ralph Mctell shouldn't have changed his name! May is much more of a proper English name!

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 04:10 PM

Correct me if I'm wrong, IE, but doesn't one of the lines in "Roots" go - "we've lost more than we'll ever know"?
To DS: if you had read this thread, you'd know that I do listen, mostly via satellite, to quite a lot of folk/acoustic radio so, of course, I've heard of those on IE's list.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 04:14 PM

Whatever you say WAV, whatever you say...

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: irishenglish
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 04:35 PM

You think no one else but the English can feel like we've lost more than we'll ever know? Put that in any context, virtually anywhere in the world and put that quote to work and let me know what you come up with. Here's a few for you-the environment, war, the economy, wildlife,transportation. See? Broad concepts, taken across the board where we have lost more than we'll ever know. What's particularly ENglish about those WAV? What's particularly English about how we as a modern society fix those problems? Oh, I know-it's a Show Of Hands song! Of course they do have a song called It's All Your Fault, so I guess if we accept the morality lessons of Show Of Hand's songs then it's all your fault WAV.

By the way, I am a Show Of Hands fan, and as Phil Beer has said, one of his favorite fiddle players was John Hartford, so the country influence is fairly obvious. Oh shit, I shouldn't have said that. WAV is going to say that not only should the singing of English music sound English, but the fiddle playing should as well, which means Show Of Hands may have just gone down another notch in his book.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 04:49 PM

What I've enjoyed listening to the most (so much so that I wore it out) is a tape called "Voices" - all E. trads sung unaccompanied by various English folkies.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Polite Guest
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 04:53 PM

"By the way, I am a Show Of Hands fan, and as Phil Beer has said, one of his favorite fiddle players was John Hartford, so the country influence is fairly obvious. Oh shit, I shouldn't have said that. WAV is going to say that not only should the singing of English music sound English, but the fiddle playing should as well, which means Show Of Hands may have just gone down another notch in his book."

Oh goodness me, Steve Knightley was accused of 'singing in the wrong accent' a VERY long time ago 'irishenglish', by an er...English Traditionalist in here (not WAV)

It led to The War of the Words, so best not to mention that too loudly in here. ;-)

Great to hear that you like their music though.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 05:04 PM

The 'Voices' collection was put together and produced by Paul Adams who felt that the English Tradition had been neglected by the World / Roots music movement of the late 1980's. Fair enough. Paul Adams did something about his opinion by compiling this CD.

An object lesson, I think

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 06:11 PM

viewing sex over a thicket:
hole in one,for once well timed.
viewing a man having sex with a bike.
an english tradition enshrined.
[dedicated to original poster,in the style of the great Walstzabout verse]

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: greg stephens
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 06:16 PM

Well, the last record I made was all English tunes. So I should be in WAV's good books. But what happens if he finds a copy of the previous one I made, which was all cajun and creole tunes, and featured JC Gallow,a black musician from Mamou, Louisiana.My, I'll be called to the headmaster's study!

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 06:17 PM

Thank You, Captain, a very touching (as it were :-D) tribute to a truly ummmm...well to a noted poet.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Goose Gander
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 06:23 PM

Forty lashes with a wet noodle, Greg.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 06:56 AM

I noticed the following will be at The Sage, Gateshead, ENGLAND, in September...Folkworks, BBC Radio Scotland's Young Traditional Musician of the Year 2008 Tour...BUT we still don't have a junior nor senior ENGLISH Folk Awards!...

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 07:16 AM

Look, an easy solution WAV.

Write to all the people you like - tell them they are all jolly good chaps. Publish the results of your deliberations for this year, on the internet and in the folk press.

Run it up the flagpole and see who salutes. Act unilaterally, I would.

You're obviously getting nowhere talking to us old 'stick in the muds'.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: GUEST,Peace
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 07:25 AM

"An English Folk Awards..?"

That would require that the award committee define folk. THAT is an opportunity NOT to be missed.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 09:03 AM

No worries Bruce - WAV is quite capable of doing ALL that, all on his own.....!

Clever chap, the folk revival is safe in his hands. There is no time like the present, and I think I can speak for all when I say we await with bated breath the outcome of his industry.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 12:28 PM

I wouldn't say we're "getting nowhere," WLD...but the most likely way we'll get an English folk awards for an English nation is by default - sensible Scots, at least, are moving more-and-more toward independence, and God's speed to them.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 12:51 PM

WAV, don't you mean THE English folk awards, or just English folk awards? As a poet, try to respect your native tongue a little more.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 12:57 PM

Well I think it should be left to WAV to choose the title of the awards he has initiated. Don't start nitpicking Volgadon, let him get on with it.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 01:01 PM

I said AN English folk awards, Volgadon, as they are yet to exist - we have, rather British folk awards, and Scottish folk awards, but no English folk awards.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Stu
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 01:11 PM

What exactly would be the criteria for the nominees then?

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 01:15 PM

well that's up to Wav. Its his idea.

An English Folk Awards - so what you're proposing is (correct me if I'm wrong):-

THE ENGLISH FOLK AWARDS

great! Get on with it and tell us when you've sorted it all out. We are agog.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 01:23 PM

That will do, WLD - with the main three branches of awards being traditional, covers, and self-penned performances/recordings...

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Stu
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 01:32 PM

C'mon WAV - does the musician have to be English, or the music played?

Hmm, but then it all goes back to how you define English. I mean, would English Banghra musicians be excluded?

We need some solid input here to get a flavour of the idea.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 01:43 PM

An English folk awards for English folk musicians, singers and, yes, dancers, Stigweard.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 01:46 PM

WAV, you quite simply can't use a,an for plurals.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 02:02 PM

I can see you were brought up on First Aid in English - Volgadon.

a brown as a .....
as black as .......
as sweet as......

So what I suggest is WAV old chap. Close down the thread. Make up your roster of fame. And start another thread.
Publish and be damned. And send a press release to Rock and reel and Froots and The English Ping Pong and Prance gang.

You've got something in mind, do it.

As Norman Stanley Fletcher said, Ours not reason why - ours but to eat the pie!

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 02:12 PM

...a pie supper could be included at the event, WLD.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 02:16 PM

You work it out, and let us all know. It sounds very promising!

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: irishenglish
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 05:41 PM

Ah WAV, how could I have missed this tasty little gem of yours.
"with the main three branches of awards being traditional, covers, and self-penned performances/recordings... "

Unfortunately, the covers and self penned contradicts things you have said on here previously. Unless of course you have worked out all the stipulations and exceptions that would have to be applied. Where does Flook fall into this grouping then? How about when Martin Simpson is joined on his Kind Letters album by Danu? So....Michael McGoldrick, who has played across the boards with English, Irish, and Scottish musicians falls into what category? Can you get special dispensation if your album has 10 English things and one Irish, or does it have to be 100% English as defined by you? Covers? Does that mean someone from Ireland or Newfoundland can win an ENGLISH FOLK AWARD if they do a really great cover of an English song? Wow! maybe we have chipped away at you a bit. Self penned? Alright! Put the Killers up for a folk award then! I'm sure I could quantify that as folk music.

So here's the breakdown then I think WAV

Musicians have to have an unbroken lineage of verifiable English ancestry of not less than 500 years

Musicians up for the covers award can only be included if a) the previous rule applies, and b)that the song being covered is a 100% verifiable English song. It can have no other variants from elsewhere, nor can it contain any geographical, political, or historical reference to anywhere but England. (Scotland and Wales do not apply either)

Self penned numbers can ONLY be about a distinct English subject matter, ie, Marmite, Watney's Red Barrel, The Grenadier Guards, Manchester United, and so on. Self penned numbers must be in one of the approved English dialects only, and contain only recognizable regional slang.

In addition, all instruments used for the performances of any of the above mentioned categories must have their origin in England, and be made in England. No Italian melodeons, Martin Guitars, Irish bodhrans, etc.

Is it something like that WAV?

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Stu
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 05:52 PM

Erm, well I'm half-Welsh, so can I enter my version of 'Chicken on a Raft'?

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: irishenglish
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 05:53 PM

Nope sorry stigweard! Try Eurovision!!!

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 06:21 PM

Oh let him get on with it! You'll all be pissed off and crawling up his bum if it takes off like the Oscars.

an't be any worse than the radio 2/ folk event of the decade/proms/oh shit theres no audience/non events.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 06:46 PM

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Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 29 Jul 08 - 03:23 AM

Look, you are all being rather silly.

There are plenty of Irish championships for this or that part of Irish folk culture, and AFAIK if the panel/judge(s) don't think something is "close enough" it doesn't win prizes. Correct me if I'm wrong but the English can enter - they just (like Dick Miles) have to play eligible stuff in the preferred way and sometimes (also like him, according to his posts) sometimes they get marked down for playing the "wrong" instrument.

Borderline definitional issues do not negate the idea. The Irish competition system has contributed (it seems to me) to the revival and survival of much Irish folk culture. I may not want to listen to it but I am of the view that it is good to have it surviving and being played and enjoyed.

I have not seen so much about the Scottish system, but I do know they have piping competitions where teh judges debate the incomprehensible such s tendencies to hurry down one's pibrochs. I assume they contribute to the survival of the piping tradition.

The Welsh have thier Eisteddfodds (hmm not sure about that spelling) and I am relatively confident that they include some sorts of bardic competitions.

So why are so many 'catters so keen to take every point they can to deny that the English traditions might benefit from the same or similar thing(s)?

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Stu
Date: 29 Jul 08 - 04:35 AM

"So why are so many 'catters so keen to take every point they can to deny that the English traditions might benefit from the same or similar thing(s)?"

I think it'd be a great idea if, as you say it works on the Irish model where ability and understanding of the music are the key attributes a competitor requires for entry. However, WAV is typically evasive when it comes to who could enter, and that raises suspicions - not unreasonable.

Anyhow, I'm off to practice my English tunes on my Irish bouzouki.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 29 Jul 08 - 04:57 AM

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