 sj |
||
|
||
Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why?
|
|
|
Subject: RE: Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why? From: doc.tom Date: 03 Nov 10 - 05:28 AM Fascinating thread. I always understood 'mid-Atlantic' to be shorthand (shortspeak?) for cod-American. People can affect whatever accent they like, of course (and many do) - I've even been known to get more Deb'n at times. However, an 'assumed' American accent is the first reason many 'wannabe booked' english artists' demo CDs go in the bin: we simply don't book performers who can't be bothered to use their own accents. |
|
Subject: RE: Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why? From: MGM·Lion Date: 03 Nov 10 - 05:42 AM Steve Hunt: thanks for your trouble. On the strength of what you said, I too went to Youtube & played back several versions of Sts of Ldn. I retain my impression that there is a strong MID-Atlantic influence, with emphasis on the 'Mid" ~~ largely matter of where the emphases fall, and usages like [as near as I can repro them phonetically] "quawdah pa-ye-sst eleven" ~ not as say one from the Bronx might say '¼-past-11'; but not as, e.g., I should pronounce it if I were singing it, which would be nearer to 'quaw-ter [with the 'R' silent*] passed [long 'a' ~ his is, distinctly, short, with that hint of a 'ye' after it which you would not get even in an English accent {e.g. Yorks, where the 'a' might be short}] 11'. I still think my point holds about the "mid"-ness of his accent and intonations. ~M~ *as Shaw remarked long ago, we lack a letter for the indefinite vowel, which phonetics represent as an upside-down 'e', even tho it is the commonest of our vowel sounds & can be represented by all our vowels on occasions, as in "formal, listen, definite, custom, fungus"... |
|
Subject: RE: Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why? From: MGM·Lion Date: 03 Nov 10 - 05:51 AM ... and in the last verse, most distinctly, "in the winter ciddy the rain crahs [presumably 'cries'] a liddle piddy"... |
|
Subject: RE: Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why? From: MGM·Lion Date: 03 Nov 10 - 06:10 AM ·····AND LET ME MAKE AN IMPORTANT POINT REGARDING 'STREETS OF LONDON' ~~ I am by no means disregarding its excellence as a piece of creative art, either as music or as verse. I think its lyric should be included in any worthwhile anthology of 20C English Poetry, along with, say, Peter Bellamy's Farewell To The Land, MacColl's Champion At Keeping Them Rolling, &c, as well as more obvious inclusions as work by Eliot, Dylan Thomas, Edward Thomas, Owen, Sassoon & so forth... It is only some inappropriateness in the way it is performed which I am animadverting against here. ~Michael~ |
|
Subject: RE: Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why? From: Gibb Sahib Date: 03 Nov 10 - 06:26 AM crahs [presumably 'cries'] That's Southern (American). Yes, it is part of the established popular singing accent, but I believe it is based on Southern speech, not on the Mid/Trans-Atlantic. One could add, as Dave notes, that certain sounds are considered more mellifluous for singing. In America, to sing the dipthong "craeee" w/ too much emphasis is unaesthetic because of the tense mouth position on "ee"; the monopthong 'craa' is preferred. And the Mid Atlantic would distinguish itself from the common American 'ciddy' by actually saying 'city.' So these are not 'Mid-Atlantic' features, but they are features of 'pop music RP...which is based on American". I agree that the Streets of London sounds appreciably American, which is the main thing. I happen to think that 'Mid-Atlantic' is not the accurate term for it, but the term isnt important. |
|
Subject: RE: Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why? From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie Date: 03 Nov 10 - 06:27 AM If you sing opera, then the accenting of the words works best when sung as written. Opera singers have known, appreciated and worked to this over the years. To a degree, this also works with any song. Narrative ballads may well work better in the natural voice of the singer, but that is because the voice is a relayer of words rather than a musical instrument in its own right. For me, authenticity is a two way street. I am English so a mid Atlantic voice can sound strange and cringingely false. That said, many songs I sing have words that don't sound the same as when I speak them, Harry Chapin and Kris Kristofferson songs especially... |
|
Subject: RE: Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why? From: Rob Naylor Date: 03 Nov 10 - 06:33 AM MtheGM: ... and in the last verse, most distinctly, "in the winter ciddy the rain crahs [presumably 'cries'] a liddle piddy"... This was the first one I opened: Streets of London and I just don't hear what you're hearing at all. He definitely articulates the "t" in both "city" and "pity" and "cries" has no hint of a "crah" in it to me. Maybe I'm just not very good at accents, though I did once ask a bloke in Oslo whether he came from Morningside in Edinburgh, to be told "No, I'm Norwegian, but my wife's from Morningside". And apparently I speak Norwegian with an Icelandic accent. Three times Oslo taxi drivers have mistaken me for an Icelander! |
|
Subject: RE: Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why? From: MGM·Lion Date: 03 Nov 10 - 06:57 AM Rob ~ in your version, certainly 'city/pity' indeed, though a somewhat obtrusive 'r' in the 'care' in the next line. In some others, tho [see how many there are on Youtube!] my 'ciddy/piddy' do occur. He wouldn't sing identically on all occasions over the years, of course ~~ perhaps someone had even suggested to him at some interim point that in an English context, 'city' would sound more seemly than 'ciddy'. Still, as Gibb Sahib says just a few posts back ~~ "I agree that the Streets of London sounds appreciably American, which is the main thing." ~M~ |
|
Subject: RE: Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why? From: GUEST,Shimrod Date: 03 Nov 10 - 07:06 AM I'm not sure that all that many recent British pop singers do have a mid-Atlantic accent - most of them sound to me as if they're singing in that curious second/third generation Jamaican/Asian form of the South London accent that lots of young people (regardless of ethnic origin) seem to affect these days. Nevertheless, aeons ago (in pop music terms) the Manchester/Salford accent, typified by Oasis (from Burnage), was fashionable for a while. Regarding prominent British folk singers, I'm struck by how many male singers affect that distinctive nasal sound, whilst I can't think of a single female singer who sings like that (perhaps it's something to do with the differences between male and female voices - and the nasal sound is harder for women to affect - or perhaps they've got more taste?). Nevertheless, the nasal sound irritates the hell out of me - which is probably why most of my favourite singers, these days, are women. |
|
Subject: RE: Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why? From: Jim Carroll Date: 03 Nov 10 - 07:06 AM We had a wonderful insight into the mindset that seems to go with this somewhat odd approach to singing. We booked an excellent (blues based, Welsh) musician/singer at our club, who had provided accompaniments for an album of songs from the Radio Ballads. He introduced one of his own songs something like this: "Last summer I was working at Butlins Holiday Camp at Aberystwyth(?) and I became very friendly with a waitress there. We spent the summer together, and at the end of the season we parted and got on our different trains to return to our different parts of the country. On the train I was thinking of how each station was a sort of milestone of the increasing gap between us; so I wrote this song on the journey home, naming all the stations. When I got home and looked at what I'd written; the Welsh names didn't seem right, so I altered them to American ones" (Memphis is the only one springs to mind). He then sang his perfectly good song, made about an experience which was obviously very dear to him, in a cod-American accent - totally destroying the effect that he had created with his preceeding story. I do not believe that a singer can have any feeling whatsoever for the words they are singing when they are delivered in an accent other than their own. Jim Carroll |
|
Subject: RE: Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why? From: Jim Carroll Date: 03 Nov 10 - 07:11 AM Sorry - cross-posted. ".....which is probably why most of my favourite singers, these days, are women." Tend to agree Shimrod, excluding those who sing in that dreadfully effected and artificial head-voice - every bit as false as cod-American. Jim Carroll |
|
Subject: RE: Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why? From: MGM·Lion Date: 03 Nov 10 - 07:25 AM Not sure I agree with your last point entirely, Jim. I happen to be good at some accents ~~ I once played the Hollywood film star in Noel Coward's Relative Values for the Shelford [Cambs] Drama Circle; some of our members in the audience brought some American visitors, who, they told us, said afterwards "Weren't you lucky to get a real American to play that part?" When I won the Best Actor award in a drama festival with the same company for Shaffer's Black Comedy, in which I played Harold Gorringe, the camp antiques dealer, as a Scouse, the adjudicator asked in his summary whether I really came from the North of England [I was actually born in Hampstead]. & remember Ewan's Scots which differed so greatly from his native Salford... I don't make these points merely to boast, but to justify myself for sometimes singing in what I regard as an appropriate accent {Irish, American, Welsh, Norfolk}, if the song seems to call for it, and if I have confidence I can bring it off. Try, e.g., my Butter&Cheese&All or my Santa Fe Trail on my Youtube channel. But where no accent seems called for, in a purely narrative song with no specified local connections, I just try to sound like me, without affectation. I think it is these last two words in the previous para that matter. I feel much of the American that infiltrates many singers' performances is an affectation rather than an attempt at enhancement ~~ which is my point as OP of this thread. ~Michael~ |
|
Subject: RE: Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why? From: Lighter Date: 03 Nov 10 - 07:33 AM "I do not believe that a singer can have any feeling whatsoever for the words they are singing when they are delivered in an accent other than their own." Why should that be? Even a terrible fake accent suggests an attempt to absorb every nuance of the song, successfully or not. The singer expresses, the audience perceives. All kinds of complications can occur in the space between, but the two processes are distinct. |
|
Subject: RE: Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why? From: Phil Edwards Date: 03 Nov 10 - 07:34 AM the Welsh names didn't seem right Ach y fi. What a sad story. Here's a bit of Billy Bragg to take the taste away (you'll probably guess the tune). "If you ever go to Shoeburyness Take the A-road, the OK road, it's the best! Go motoring on the A13. Well it starts down in Wapping Then it ain't a-stopping Bypass Barking and straight through Dagenham Down to Grays Thurrock And rather near Basildon Pitsea, Thundersley, Hadleigh, Leigh-on-Sea, Chalkwell, Prittlewell, Southend's the end!" Obviously he wrote it as a joke, but (at the risk of Pseud's Corner) I think it works rather well as a celebration of place - it's certainly a celebration of how many placenames you can get into a song. You can hear it, bizarrely enough, on the V&A Web site. |
|
Subject: RE: Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why? From: MGM·Lion Date: 03 Nov 10 - 08:02 AM Thanks, Pip. Greatly enjoyed that. Pseud's Corner? ~~ dear me know: a true celebration indeed ~~ as Henry James might have said, firmly rooted in the actual... and sung in the most appropriate of accents! ~Michael~ |
|
Subject: RE: Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why? From: RoyH (Burl) Date: 03 Nov 10 - 08:06 AM Somewhat off topic I know, but Thank You Jon for mentioning Gene Tierney, my first teenage crush (on a movie star) and still in my opinion the most beautiful woman ever on the screen. Closely followed, but never overtaken, by the divine Audrey Hepburn. |
|
Subject: RE: Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why? From: GUEST Date: 03 Nov 10 - 09:05 AM Sing with the accent you use when you speak. If you are not American don't sing with an American accent.Why would you? Doesn't make sense and sounds dreadful. The worse of all for me though is someone who tries to sing with a Scottish accent when they are not Scottish. Appalling!
Thanks. -Joe Offer- |
|
Subject: RE: Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why? From: squeezeboxhp Date: 03 Nov 10 - 10:01 AM try Dave Burland doing Butter & cheese and all in mid Barnsley acce4nt |
|
Subject: RE: Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why? From: GUEST,Jon Date: 03 Nov 10 - 10:03 AM She would have been too old for me, Burl but, yes I think she is good looking. back to topic, If you are not American don't sing with an American accent.Why would you? I think if I was (not that I could) starring in a production of Oklahoma, I would. My mixed English accent may not seem right in the context. On the other hand with songs that move around and get adopted, I don't really see being other than myself. |
|
Subject: RE: Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why? From: Jim Carroll Date: 03 Nov 10 - 10:04 AM Sorry Mike - can't agree with your point on accents. The mid Atlantic one always gives me the impression of repeating the song parrot-fashion rather than the re-living of it in performance. The 'Oirish' one has the same effect on me, as does the yokel "oo-ar" one. I'm sure MacColl's Scots accent is going to surface here somewhere, but I think that's a little different. Ewan grew up in a Scots household surrounded by Scots accents; if you spent any time with him you realised his speech was full of naturally acquired Scotticisms. His singing accent was in no way authentic; his early influences were mixed, High and Lowland Scots and, having chosen to sing the Scots songs he had heard as a child, he deliberately neutralised them (as does an actor) in order to make them intelligible to an English audience. I remember seeing the Edinburgh Festival's production of MacBeath once and not understanding a word (particularly Matt McGinn playing the gatekeeper). Walter Pardon, in his gentle way, took ubridge at the mock-East anglian one that he came across on the radio occasionally. We were recording him talking about accents one night (we had just got hold of a very early recording of him at the Norwitch Festival noticed that his own had lessened somewhat over the years). He went into a gentle rant about 'country accents' on the radio; "They always depict us saying ""ooo, ar"". Pat said to him, "But you do sometimes say "oo-ar", Walter. He sat for a moment, stared up at the ceiling as said, "Oo-ar". Jim Carroll |
|
Subject: RE: Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why? From: WalkaboutsVerse Date: 03 Nov 10 - 10:24 AM "Or am I the only person in the entire universe who finds anything at all odd about it?" ~Michael~...No: I (and others) have been saying it for years on Mudcat, and here, e.g. - http://davidfranks.webs.com/#messages And it's not just in our nation, of course: on Eurosport T.V., I was watching a gala of figure skating to what I thought was an American band playing live - until the lead singer began introducing the next song in a strong German accent. |
|
Subject: RE: Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why? From: Jim Carroll Date: 03 Nov 10 - 10:35 AM In acting, it can work the opposite way to how you describe of course Mike. Years ago I watched a television production of Théresé Raquin featuring the great Brian Cox. Cox played it in a straight 'English' accent up to an extremely dramatic scene towards the end, where the role appeared to take him over and he roared his way though his lines in broad Scots - superb - still makes the hairs on the back of the neck bristle to think of it. Jim Carroll |
|
Subject: RE: Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why? From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie Date: 03 Nov 10 - 11:05 AM Remember that lad from Salford Manchester who used to affect a Scottish accent in his singing and increasingly over the years, his general speech? Even changed his name to the more Scottish sounding Ewan McColl.... |
|
Subject: RE: Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why? From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe Date: 03 Nov 10 - 11:14 AM "Some UK local accents are hideous... Birmingham and Wolverhampton" Richard, you can't truly believe that, can you? You may have the slightest point about Brummies, but the Black Country accent, especially when sung, is surely a thing of great beauty! It's a shame we don't hear more of it. Not folk in the narrower sense, but have a listen to Dan Haywood's New Hawks. Most of his songs are inspired by his travels around rural Scotland, but invariably sung in his lovely West Midlands twang... |
|
Subject: RE: Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why? From: GUEST,Tunesmith Date: 03 Nov 10 - 01:46 PM When I was studying socio-linguistics, I remember an experiment that involved playing recordings of various English regional accents to two groups of people. The first group were English and they were asked to list the accents in order from favourite to least favourite. Birmingham and Liverpool were at the bottom and West Country at the top; but, interestingly, when the same recordings were played to the second group, Americans, the results were very different. This suggests that English listeners ratings involved certain prejudices. |
|
Subject: RE: Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why? From: GUEST,glueman Date: 03 Nov 10 - 01:52 PM Wolverhampton (yam-yam) is an excellent accent and quite unlike Birmingham in its expressiveness. And no I'm not from either but know a fine sound when I hear one. Neil Tennant of Pet Shop Boys sings in a fascinating mix of posh geordie and faux Noel Coward. Then there's Morrissey's Betjeman/Bet Lynch hybrid. One question I've often pondered is why all crusties, protesters, new-agers adopt a Swindon accent whatever their origins. |
|
Subject: RE: Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why? From: Joe Offer Date: 03 Nov 10 - 01:57 PM Interesting that somebody linked to this 1986 Ralph McTell recording of "Streets of London" as an example of "mid-Atlantic" accent. To me, he sounds completely British, perhaps softening the British accent a bit to make himself more understandable to a worldwide audience. But he sure doesn't sound anywhere close to any accent I've heard here in the US. Well, maybe he sounds a bit like British ex-pats who live in the US. Now, if you want to hear Britons trying to sound American, listen to Lonnie Donegan or the Rolling Stones. -Joe in California- |
|
Subject: RE: Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why? From: GUEST,glueman Date: 03 Nov 10 - 02:12 PM I once met a brother and sister from Blackboys in Sussex who spoke an accent quite unlike the estuary or RP one might expect. I asked my BiL who has always lived nearby and he said there is a proper Sussex accent but it has largely died out. It had touches of Norfolk and the west country to my ear. |
|
Subject: RE: Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why? From: MGM·Lion Date: 03 Nov 10 - 02:23 PM The 'proper Sussex accent' is of course that of the Copper Family ~~ at least up to the present generation of elders. ~Michael~ |
|
Subject: RE: Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why? From: WalkaboutsVerse Date: 03 Nov 10 - 02:35 PM I agree, Joe, re. "Streets of London" - but I've also heard Ralph McTell attempt an American accent in other songs. |
|
Subject: RE: Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why? From: Will Fly Date: 03 Nov 10 - 02:41 PM Oh well, if we're talking about actors, then give me Ray Winston as Henery the Eightf... "Oi! Anne Boleyn! You sl-a-a-g!" |
|
Subject: RE: Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why? From: Joe Offer Date: 03 Nov 10 - 02:50 PM Come to think of it, on "Streets of London," McTell sounds just like Pierce Brosnan doing a James Bond movie - it sounds British, but it's understandable to a wider audience. David Attenborough and a lot of BBC announcers do the same. But it's not trying to sound like an American, fer chrissake. It's just trying to be understood. Americans often do the same thing when they're on stage - dropping the regionalisms so they can be understood, and so the accent doesn't get in the way of their performance. -Joe- |
|
Subject: RE: Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 03 Nov 10 - 02:59 PM The first group were English But from where? I suspect you'd get a different preferred order in different parts of the country. |
|
Subject: RE: Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why? From: Jim Carroll Date: 03 Nov 10 - 03:21 PM "Even changed his name to the more Scottish sounding Ewan McColl.." Sort of like the feller who changed his name to Bob Dylan, you mean - don't think he could even claim Welsh parents. Jim |
|
Subject: RE: Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why? From: Gibb Sahib Date: 03 Nov 10 - 04:03 PM Ewan MacColl always seemed to me like Theodore Bikel knowing fewer accents. =) |
|
Subject: RE: Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why? From: Gibb Sahib Date: 03 Nov 10 - 04:36 PM But it's not trying to sound like an American, fer chrissake. It's just trying to be understood. I can't say what it's trying to do -- that information remains with the performer. And I agree heartily with your point about trying to be widely understood, so far as that is one of the many reason someone would alter his/her accent. Maybe that is what he is doing. Nevertheless it does have American qualities. Michael's example of "quarder", "ciddy" etc. is strong evidence. That sort of pronunciation is nearly universally "American" (regardless of region). If you wanted to make yourself better understood, I'd think you'd use the English/South African/New Zealander/etc. "t" rather than America's unique sound. |
|
Subject: RE: Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why? From: MGM·Lion Date: 03 Nov 10 - 04:39 PM Now Theo Bikel ~~ there is a man brilliant at accents: remember his perfect Irish on One Sunday Morning? {Jim, please note.} The point is, of course, that he is primarily an actor. ~Michael~ |
|
Subject: RE: Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why? From: MGM·Lion Date: 03 Nov 10 - 04:45 PM Another point re McTell is the style of delivery: every version of Streets is what I can only describe as "crooned", in a manner redolent to my ears of American pop singing styles of the pre-rock era [think Crosby, think Bennett, think Sinatra], which redounds strongly IMO to the overall feel of "American"-ness which others as well as me have expressed themselves here as sensing. ~Michael~ |
|
Subject: RE: Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why? From: GUEST,Jon Date: 03 Nov 10 - 04:48 PM Remember that lad from Salford Manchester who used to affect a Scottish accent I can not claim to know Manchester but on accents and languages... A couple of years ago I got talking to someone I used to know when I was living in Wales. Accent would say Welsh first language (there are differences on the N Wales coast) and (not that I siarad Cymraeg) he is fluent - it may even be the language he teaches in. I was quite surprised to learn he was from Manchester but had a Welsh parent - and had always known Welsh. |
|
Subject: RE: Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why? From: bubblyrat Date: 03 Nov 10 - 05:19 PM Accents are funny things ; there is someone I know ,who comes from t' Midlands by t'sound of it,but INSISTS on singing all his material in a dreadful faux-American (Am-err-ik-aine) accent .(No names,no pack-drill,but he lives in Carterton !!). As to Will Fly's earlier comments ; well, I recently heard that song about Messrs Mason & Dixon, about the eponymous "line", and,whilst I recognised Mark Knopfler right away, I thought that the other voice belonged to Dougie MacClean !! ( apparently it's James Taylor !!).Hmmmmm.... Whether or not Lonnie Donegan affected an American accent or not is open to debate ; I always felt that he somehow spoke / sang like that naturally, to be honest ! Some years ago,I was working with a guy whose accent really had me stumped ; he looked quite Nordic,or Germanic, with piercing blue eyes and blond hair --one day, I decided that I just HAD to ask him from whence he came; "Germany ?" I ventured,tentatively-"Israel?" "Why no, man ! " he replied : " Ahm from Kingston ,Jahmaiker !" I spluttered a bit,and then he said "There's lots o whart folks dat comes from Jahmaiker,yer know!". One lives & learns. |
|
Subject: RE: Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why? From: Jim Carroll Date: 04 Nov 10 - 05:05 AM "Now Theo Bikel ~~ there is a man brilliant at accents: remember his perfect Irish on One Sunday Morning? {Jim, please note.}" Don't know a lot about Theodor Bikel, except a couple of his films I enjoyed - The Defiant Ones - still magnificent. But he earned my lifelong respect when I read the story of his embarrassing Bob Dylan into participating in the Civil Rights Demonstrations - Dylan had said that he wasn't taking part (along with Seeger and many of the other singers at the time) because he couldn't afford the fare South - Bikel paid it, more or less forcing him to go. I'm not saying that singers, as well as actors, can't 'do' accents other than their own well - of course they can. But I do believe that once you sing a song in an accent that is outside your own personal experience, then you run the risk of placing the song at arms-length from you and it becomes a 'technical performance' rather than an emotianal interpretation. I believee that this is what the Welsh singer I mentioned earlier did with an emotional experience of his own; and it diddn't work - for him, for me, for the other residents, and for some of the audience. Jim Carroll |
|
Subject: RE: Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why? From: Tim Leaning Date: 04 Nov 10 - 06:04 AM I blame the Bay City Rollers.... |
|
Subject: RE: Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why? From: WalkaboutsVerse Date: 04 Nov 10 - 06:24 AM As I said in a brief talk, about this time last year, as part of the BBC/Sage Gateshead Free Thinking Festival, "If you are not American, don't Americanise, for the love of our world being multicultural" - quickly stressing the difference between being anti-American and anti-Americanisation, of course. And this year, by the way, at 3.30 on Saturday at the Sage, my brief talk will be: "Cut Capitalism." |
|
Subject: RE: Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why? From: Nicholas Waller Date: 04 Nov 10 - 08:14 AM Joe Offer - Now, if you want to hear Britons trying to sound American, listen to Lonnie Donegan or the Rolling Stones. Or Elton John. I like a lot of Elton John's songs, and the Rolling Stones' for that matter, but I've never been enough of a fan of either to actually acquire much more than a best-of album, and I think that's partly to do with a resistance to the accents. (And just imagine the mockery if English artists felt they had to sing everything with a French or Italian accent). Again, this is about British people singing with an "American" accent, or mid-Atlantic accent (which I read as being neither one thing nor the other, but falling somewhere in the sea between two stools). Americans singing in American - like Dana and Susan Robinson or anyone else - great, perfect. (Similarly, I don't much like to see British actors playing Americans, as it looks fraudulent - though oddly, as a Brit, I am utterly unbothered by Rene Zellweger or Russell Crowe or Cate Blanchett playing Brits). There were a couple of good songwriters and singers in the West Country folk/acoustic club I used to go to (before it had to fold), and they too spoke in English accents but insisted on singing in American, often about American subjects too. Obviously they genuinely loved the sound and the stories and culture of US music, but I still thought of it as a pretence of some sort. Having said all this, I recognise a singing voice is never going to be the same as a speaking voice, well, except for the likes of William Shatner, and no-one expects opera singers to sing with a voice like their speaking voices. @ bubblyrat - Caribbean accent: when I first heard Tony Cozier, the cricket commentator from Barbados, on the radio, I assumed he was a black West Indian - but he looks like a white retired bank manager from the Home Counties. |
|
Subject: RE: Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why? From: CET Date: 04 Nov 10 - 08:17 AM I am trying to get my head around the idea that there are people on this planet (presumably, people who like music) who are capable of criticizing Janet Russell for sounding too Scottish. That's like saying: "Chaliapin was OK, I guess, but he would have been better if he didn't sound so Russian and didn't have such a deep voice." |
|
Subject: RE: Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why? From: bubblyrat Date: 04 Nov 10 - 08:44 AM Well, Nicholas,there you go !! Elvis,until he actually met him (they became friends) always thought Tom Jones was black !! I have to say, I really do like the idea of an accent falling between two stools !! |
|
Subject: RE: Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why? From: GUEST,Ned Date: 04 Nov 10 - 09:02 AM This is a good thread. I agree with the original poster. Michael, you're not "the only person in the entire universe who finds anything at all odd about it". Reminds me of an Eddi Reader quote in the current issue of The Word. She was interviewed about Kirsty MacColl: "It's a very English voice. In the sense that she's a really authentic singer and very much of her culture, I'd relate her to Sandy Denny. She used her accent the way Sandy used her accent - getting that Englishness across without sounding like Chas and Dave..." |
|
Subject: RE: Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why? From: GUEST,Neil D Date: 04 Nov 10 - 09:10 AM Joe said "I think an American trying to sound British is "uppity" (except in the case of Katharine Hepburn, Cary Grant, and Grace Kelly)." Cary Grant was not an American trying to sound British. He WAS British. |
|
Subject: RE: Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why? From: MGM·Lion Date: 04 Nov 10 - 09:57 AM Jim ~~ You write, "I'm not saying that singers, as well as actors, can't 'do' accents other than their own well - of course they can. But I do believe that once you sing a song in an accent that is outside your own personal experience, then you run the risk of placing the song at arms-length from you and it becomes a 'technical performance' rather than an emotianal interpretation." I do see what you mean: but how would you define "outside your own personal experience"? I repeat, I have played Americans in plays, once getting the comment from American visitors that we were 'lucky to get a real American to play that part'. I have played Irishmen [in 'Shadow of the Glen'], Welshmen [in Under Milk Wood]. I won a Best Actor festival cup for playing a Scouse with an accent which the adjudicator admitted he thought was real. So in what way precisely are the accents demanded by such performances 'outside my personal experience'? Playing a part is personal experience, surely? And singing a song is a performance: I think it no accident that two of the greatest of folksingers, Ewan MacColl & Theo Bikel, were both professional actors. If I can bring them off on stage to convince an audience, why shouldn't I sing appropriate songs in them? I try to sound natural and avoid exaggeration. I have just been back to my Youtube channel & replayed my Skillet Pot, Longhorn Cows, Butter&Cheese... I try to be self-critical, & they do, honest, sound OK to me. Glasgow friends have been most appreciative of my "Day We Went To Rothesay-O". & remember, I was OP of this thread, so you can tell that I detest accents used inappropriately. ~Michael~ |
|
Subject: RE: Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why? From: GUEST,Hootenanny Date: 04 Nov 10 - 10:35 AM I can't agree that singing a song is necessarily a performance. I am pretty sure that most people sing for their own enjoyment of a song because they like that particular lyric and or melody. I remember many years back I used to sing for my own enjoyment "Pub with no beer" and to sing it in anything other than an attempted "strine" accent made it sound ridiculous. Likewise I have a liking for the songs of the American south. To sing about catfish, possum, grits and gravy etc. in an english accent sounds equally so. Regarding Glasgow friends being most appreciative of and englishman singing "Rothesay-O", I suspect that they were being polite. I had a similar experience when I was asked to sing by a couple from North Carolina. I sang an american song and when I finished the husband turned to his wife and said "see when he sings he don't have an accent". Very polite those southerners. Hoot |
| Share Thread: |