Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?

Subject: Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 26 Mar 10 - 07:09 PM

Just curious really, how did this breathy folkie default in female vocals come to pass? Can we blame it all on Vashti Bunyion?

Subject: RE: Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 26 Mar 10 - 07:14 PM

I'd be more inclined to blame Nick Drake.

Subject: RE: Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?
From: Padre
Date: 26 Mar 10 - 07:23 PM

Blossom Dearie

Subject: RE: Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?
From: Steve Hunt
Date: 26 Mar 10 - 07:30 PM

Vashti Bunyan has always consistently maintained that she isn't a folk singer, so I don't think that you should be blaming her for anything...

Subject: RE: Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?
From: Anne Neilson
Date: 26 Mar 10 - 07:37 PM

Since the singing took itself from shared spaces and 'unassisted' vocals into larger areas with amplification!

Subject: RE: Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Mar 10 - 08:06 PM

It's called head voice and I think it was first popularised in the revival by S****** C******.
Always sounds milk-and-watery to me but I suppose it's ok if it is mastered well enough to tackle the problems it brings with it.
1 It takes twice as much breath to produce than it does for the chest voice, so it can be difficult to sing long lines and the singer has often to take a breath in the midddle, therby losing the sense of the narrative. I heard a recording of somebody singing Barbara Allen recently - quite slowly - and having to take a breath after every four words.
2 Difficult to produce in the lower range so a singer can't maintain it as she goes down and has to shift from head to chest voice, producing an etirely different tone - often referred to as 'the gear change'.
I am often disappointed when I hear a singer introduce a song in her beautiful, rich, natural voice, then start to sing as if she's been intercepted on her way to haunt houses.
Men can't produce consistent head voice without going into falsetto.
We discussed the reason for this once in a workshop, and one of our members, a very humourous Canadian man, leaned back in his chair, stared reflectivly at the ceiling and then drawled, "Maybe it's the lack of a cluster" - no idea what he meant or if he was right.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 26 Mar 10 - 11:42 PM

We already did this but I'm too lazy to find the thread.

Russ (Permanent GUEST)

Subject: RE: Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 27 Mar 10 - 03:47 AM

"Since the singing took itself from shared spaces and 'unassisted' vocals into larger areas with amplification!"

Yes, that makes sense.

Of course there's nothing wrong with anyone singing in any they want to. And as for 'blaming' I was only being tongue in cheek. Just wondered how that particular ultra feminine breathy vocal style became associated to folk music and why.

I'll try and find the other thread.

Subject: RE: Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?
From: stallion
Date: 27 Mar 10 - 04:38 AM

there are plenty of big girls blouses in the folk wor....... oh breathy....sorry ignore me can't read properly

Subject: RE: Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?
From: GUEST, Richard Bridge on the other browser
Date: 27 Mar 10 - 04:40 AM

The near ubiquity (in female singers of folk and the music recently called folk) of the wifty-wafty voice can't wholly be blamed on amplification. Obviously it is enabled by amplification, but the total ubiquity of amplification in rock music has still left quite a lot of female rock "belters".

Indeed I would think it was quite a lot later than the revival. Yes, the good dame blamed above was a bit restrained, and likewise the puzzlingly revered Anne Briggs but right through to the end of the folk-rock scene there were numbers of strong female singers, whereas now the nuber must be down to the Waterson-Carthies, Maddy Prior and June Tabor: that's about it AFAIK.

As for "blame" - yes, I think that's a fair term to use. To get back onto my hobby horse I see the baby-voice as consistent with the societal image of the woman as child and potential victim, consistently with depilation and the modern equivalents of foot-binding and hobbling.

Subject: RE: Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 27 Mar 10 - 04:44 AM

I agree with Richard entirely. As soon as the voice kicks in I stop listening.

Subject: RE: Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 27 Mar 10 - 04:54 AM

I have heard lots of young (?), 20 - 30 ish, people sing at a folk club. They don't seem to project their voice much and I wondered if it had anything to do with 'Open Mike' Nights where their is no need to project?

As a result it is had to haer what they sing.

L in C

Subject: RE: Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?
From: Will Fly
Date: 27 Mar 10 - 05:22 AM

Can't bear wifty-wafty voices. Here's the sort of stuff I like:

Sue Gates: A Man You Won't Meet Every Day

Sue is one of the regulars at a monthly singaround I attend. She has a lovely, rich voice. No wift-waft there.

Subject: RE: Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?
From: treewind
Date: 27 Mar 10 - 05:55 AM

If it's only amplification and "open mic" nights to blame, why is this problem apparently restricted to females?
My money's on the "influential role models" theory.

Anahata

Subject: RE: Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 27 Mar 10 - 05:59 AM

I blame their fathers.

Subject: RE: Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 27 Mar 10 - 06:10 AM

I blame their fathers.

Something in that. Siobhan Miller (Brian Miller's daughter, now in her 20s) may have no discernible scintilla of originality, but nobody could say she sounds peely-wally.

Peely-walliness in women singers seems a lot less prevalent in Scotland. Eddi Reader may have absolutely nothing else going for her, but she does sing her crappy arrangements with guts.

Subject: RE: Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?
From: BusyBee Paul
Date: 27 Mar 10 - 06:18 AM

You would have been talking about me if I'd struggled to folk club last night with this bronchitis!

Deirdre

(Well - weaky & breathy anyway - I'm not often described as girlie!)

Subject: RE: Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?
From: GUEST, RBotob
Date: 27 Mar 10 - 06:18 AM

Never heard "peely-wally" before. Nice!

Even now it is not universal. Leslie from Capella delivers with power, the female half of KerryandMandy from Deal is very forceful, Virginia Tam can be heard for about half a mile, Crow Sister delivers with power and judgment, and my own daughter can break windows at a distance when doing that sort of song - but since none of the above are signed, is it the fault of record companies and promoters - who want "girl singers"?

Subject: RE: Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 27 Mar 10 - 07:04 AM

"To get back onto my hobby horse I see the baby-voice as consistent with the societal image of the woman as child and potential victim,"

Indeed, something similar crossed my mind. Though as you say we don't tend to see this stereotype in other genres such as rock. No doubt someone has done a study of the various images of woman to be found presented in modern music.

Subject: RE: Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?
From: gnomad
Date: 27 Mar 10 - 07:08 AM

What part have recording engineers and record promoters played in this? For some time I have felt that there is a perception that this is the sound the public wants, so that is what is on the discs. Up and coming performers see what is being promoted and follow suit.

This infantilisation seems a pretty blatant attempt to manipulate the listener, presumably it works for some or they would have given it up by now. I find it a turn-off.

I don't hear enough non-folky music to know whether other genres have been infected with this fashion, if they have then that would lend weight to RB's societal image theory. I had assumed it was something restricted to folk (what that, ha!) but I don't know.

I just wish they wouldn't do it.

Subject: RE: Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 27 Mar 10 - 07:10 AM

Around about this point in most threads things turn persoanal and often get nasty.

I don't think its just women singers - loads of blokes don't project their voices either it just comes out in a lower muttered register. I don't suppose it's just 'Open Mike-itous' few things ever have one cause.

Best wishes

L in C

Subject: RE: Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 27 Mar 10 - 07:13 AM

It's called head voice and I think it was first popularised in the revival by S****** C******

Excuse my ignorance, but who is S****** C****** ?


DC

Subject: RE: Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 27 Mar 10 - 07:25 AM

I suspect sound engineers do a lot to perpetuate this. I'm thinking of one world-famous country and western singer who does NOT come across through the mike as in any way weak or pathetic. She came into Sandy Bells once on a visit to Scotland, and surprised everybody by how softly she sang (not feeble and breathy, just quiet). You'd never guess. In that instance the sound engineers wanted a different stereotype, so they mixed her voice to get it.

Subject: RE: Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?
From: Acorn4
Date: 27 Mar 10 - 07:29 AM

Maybe the Enya "Celtic chasm reverb" has been a factor.

Subject: RE: Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 27 Mar 10 - 07:30 AM

Could be Shi**** Co*****

L in C

Subject: RE: Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?
From: Guy Wolff
Date: 27 Mar 10 - 07:42 AM

If you want to get away from breathy have a listen to Julie Fowlis ..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1I2nCAaodI&feature=related

Subject: RE: Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 27 Mar 10 - 07:49 AM

"Around about this point in most threads things turn persoanal and often get nasty."

Agreed, and that wasn't my intent at all in 'blaming' Vashti - which as said, was more tongue in cheek than anything. I definitely don't think we need to start down the route of personally directed bitching at particular performers (I saw some pretty unpleasant and personal slagging writ elsewhere when looking up other threads to do with female singers). Though equally there's nothing wrong IMO, in a bit of honest criticism of the music itself. I wonder why Mudcat gets so weirdly schizo about such stuff!

Subject: RE: Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?
From: melodeonboy
Date: 27 Mar 10 - 07:51 AM

I certainly don't think of Shi**** Co***** as weak and breathy! I think of her more as Maggie Holland described her - like a mother singing in her kitchen (or words to that effect)!

Subject: RE: Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Mar 10 - 07:54 AM

"Could be Shi**** Co*****"
Getting warm Les - any advance on 'Shi**** Co*****'
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?
From: Little Robyn
Date: 27 Mar 10 - 07:57 AM

I would have said K*** R**** rather than S.C.
Robyn

Subject: RE: Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 27 Mar 10 - 07:57 AM

ShCo? No, I don't either. A charmingly honest natural voice. She doesn't fit my image of fey vulnerable girly folk singer.

GuyW: Thanks for Julie Fowlis, that was super.

Subject: RE: Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?
From: EnglishFolkfan
Date: 27 Mar 10 - 08:04 AM

Who are these female singers, would you be prepared to name them Guest CS?

Without knowing exactly whom everyone is referring to I would say that having sat in the presence of the following singers performing acoustically I wouldn't describe any of them in *that* way:

Bella Hardy
Hannah James
Jackie Oates
Karen Polwart
Emily Smith
Julie Fowlis
Ruth Notman
Lucy Ward

Subject: RE: Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 27 Mar 10 - 08:50 AM

I can think of a few EFF, but such discussions in other threads get a bit ugly when things get personal. As you point out however there is clearly a generation of robust female singers working the circuit today & performing more traditional material too, which run counter to the media friendly fey girlish voice & image. So on consideration, it's evidently much less of a default than I and others here may imagine it to be.

Subject: RE: Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Mar 10 - 09:09 AM

perhaps they should work on bretah control and diaphragm control,and try sing ing exercises toextend the range
the voice is a musical instrument and like all musical instruments needs to be used correctly not abused,it needs to be worked on

Subject: RE: Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 27 Mar 10 - 09:11 AM

I figured Judy Collins might have been one of the earliest offenders, so I did a YouTube search for her. And got a sponsored link from orabrush.com, "Does Your Breath Stink?" - now there's something you don't often see mentioned as a problem for singers.

Subject: RE: Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?
From: Maryrrf
Date: 27 Mar 10 - 09:14 AM

Count me as one who can't stand breathy little girl voices in folk music - especially if it's a ballad and they're lisping and mincing through the words of a powerful, compelling story. I guess it's a fashion that some like and some don't. Obviously as some of these singers are very successful, they have their followers. Give me a voice like Niamh Parsons any day. For folk music I much prefer a head voice to a chest voice - although I do like Joan Baez. But although she sings with a head voice, I wouldn't describe her as breathy or little girly.

Subject: RE: Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 27 Mar 10 - 09:19 AM

Loreena McKennitt! Not very popular with down to earth folkies but she shifts millions of cds. I can't stand her delivery but a fellow folkie friend of mine thinks she's the bees knees.

Subject: RE: Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?
From: melodeonboy
Date: 27 Mar 10 - 09:28 AM

'"Does Your Breath Stink?" - now there's something you don't often see mentioned as a problem for singers.'

Depends on how much they've been hammering the pints and sausage rolls!

Subject: RE: Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Mar 10 - 09:35 AM

One of the most frustrating experiences t=is to find a good singer with a beautiful natural tone, who still manages to make a hames of the songs.
It's not just the voice, but how it is used.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?
From: mikesamwild
Date: 27 Mar 10 - 09:39 AM

We went to hear Fay Hield a few weeks ago , 'nice to hear some bollix again' my missus said.

We've been fed up with 'the curse of the child-woman' for quite some time.

Subject: RE: Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?
From: GUEST, RBotob
Date: 27 Mar 10 - 10:14 AM

A few names I will need to listen to here - but at least three of those above stated to be not "girly" in delivery alas do sound that way to me (although some of their material is excellent)

Subject: RE: Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?
From: EnglishFolkfan
Date: 27 Mar 10 - 10:53 AM

Hi Guest RBotob

The fact that some of the females in my list are very young may account for what you call a 'girly' tone to their voice, better described as 'fresh young' imho, but I thought this thread was about 'breathy girly' which is a different sound and I don't think any of them come across as that when singing live.

Hope you do enjoy listening to their output & I think you will find there is a vocal maturity developing with some of them. In Hannah's case she can get a tiny breathless when live but that is only when she's done a fantastic step dancing piece in the middle of the song ..... catch her as part of Kerfuffle on Youtube to see what I mean.

Subject: RE: Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Mar 10 - 11:03 AM

Gina le faux,Now there is a girl that doesnt sing win a breathy fay way.

Subject: RE: Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?
From: Chris Green
Date: 27 Mar 10 - 11:38 AM

I misread the above post to read 'fay wray'. Now THERE was a gal with a hell of a voice!

Subject: RE: Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 27 Mar 10 - 11:43 AM

Absolutely, but do you know why ?

Dave H

Subject: RE: Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?
From: Arkie
Date: 27 Mar 10 - 12:01 PM

It certainly is not limited to girl singers and is no more appealing for males than for gals. It might be ok if it fits the song, but song after song gets a little stale. I went to a songwriter showcase at Folk Alliance several years back. As far as I was concerned it was a who's who of male songwriters. All folk I had heard on recordings. Really looking forward to the music. Then one after the other they breathed their way through their sets. Finally, we got to David Olney (had he not been on the program I would have walked out) and he let it fly. That made the hour worthwhile, but because I have such admiration for those who preceded him I was disappointed. So when a person can actually sing, why the heavy breathing?

Subject: RE: Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?
From: melodeonboy
Date: 27 Mar 10 - 01:17 PM

"I misread the above post to read 'fay wray'. Now THERE was a gal with a hell of a voice!"

"Absolutely, but do you know why ?

Dave H"

Is it 'cos she didn't monkey about? :)

Subject: RE: Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?
From: Chris Green
Date: 27 Mar 10 - 01:18 PM

Or try and ape her contemporaries?

Subject: RE: Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?
From: matt milton
Date: 27 Mar 10 - 01:19 PM

To cite Shirley Collins here strikes me as plainly and objectively wrong. Yes, she might have used a 'head voice' quite a lot, but I'd say the timbre of her voice leant towards that kind of sound anyway: meaning that I can't hear any kind of disjunction between her lower register and her upper.

Plus her 'head voice' was still relatively powerful - much more so than plenty of contemporary female folk singers.

Both her and Anne Briggs had voices that weren't nasal, sure, but they certainly weren't "baby doll" voices - far from it. For me, they were just straightforward, no-nonsense. Neither Shirley Collins nor Anne Briggs sounded breathy or ethereal or gossamer-thin.

I'd say they were more like the female equivalent of a Paddy Tunney or Len Graham or, stateside, Horton Barker or Frank Proffitt: not foghorn-like or blasting it out, just a bit more conversational.

Vashti Bunyan on the other hand often sounded like someone who'd recently lost her voice. I quite like her early 60s pop stuff, but her folk-ish stuff is just too twee for me.

The female singer I hear the most in today's singers, well todays 'alternative' acoustic singers anyway, is Karen Dalton. Whenever I hear Alela Diane or Joanna Newsom or Maree Sioux I hear a lot of Karen Dalton in there.

I'm with the original poster in that I don't really like fey, wimpy, little girl lost type voices. But equally I don't like strident voices. I can't really say I enjoy listening to Margaret Barry or Peter Bellamy, for instance.

All of these things are styles and affectations; I don't think you can say any are more "natural" than others.

Subject: RE: Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Mar 10 - 01:29 PM

I'm with the original poster in that I don't really like fey, wimpy, little girl lost type voices. But equally I don't like strident voices. I can't really say I enjoy listening to Margaret Barry or Peter Bellamy, for instance
that is your prerogative,however if one can try and judge singing objectively,[by that i meantaking out of the equation emotional like or dislike to a voice],and judging singing on interpretation,most singers of traditional songs [myself included] rate Peter Bellamys song interpretation highly.