[Formerly BS:] Musical snobbery

Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: Will Fly
Date: 03 Feb 13 - 02:00 PM

"Love Potion No. 9" (Lieber & Stoller) is a great song - I still perform it today!

Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: GUEST,DDT
Date: 03 Feb 13 - 02:11 PM

"Ode to Billie Joe" does have great lyrics.

One poem I taught myself by 2nd grade was "The Highwayman" by Alfred Noyes because I loved it--no other reason. I suppose you could do it as a rap. Personally, I've never cared for any of the musical adaptations of the poem. None capture its "to-be-read-on-a-cold-winter's-night-by-the-fire-with-the-room-all-in-shimmerin-shiftin-shadows-with-a-hot-cup-o'-tea-while-the-wind-outside-is-a-howlin'" feel.

When I saw "Jabberwocky" way back when it first came out, I was surprised how many people in the theater could recite the poem along with the troubadour on the screen. Made me feel ashamed that I didn't know it, so I bought "Alice" and read through cover to cover. I can still recite poem from memory to this day (I just did it). I also remember how to interpret the opening an closing verses as it was explained to Alice.

I suppose you could do that as a rap too. Maybe someone should do that--make an album rap from all the great poetry in literature. Even do one of haiku with all sorts of cool Zen-like fx.

Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Feb 13 - 02:23 PM

The only king of snobbery on the folkscene that really cuts through to me are the traddies. They sneer at everyone who doesn't do things in their style.

So the popularisers like the Spinners, Baez, the irish Country bands playing folksongs are sneered as not authentic. The same songs they are singing themselves. I can't understand the roots of their viciousness, just what they get out of slagging off someone like Roger Whittaker, Val Doonican or Daniel O'Donnel - who can communicate folksongs to thousands of people.

I think MORE folksong is the answer and everyone doing it needs ours support and encouragement.

The recent threads on Singing Together programmes just how an effort to disseminate folksong can awaken a love for folksong - however weird sounding the person doing it , is.

Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: Peter the Squeezer
Date: 03 Feb 13 - 02:43 PM

Basically, this is about the difference between discrimination and prejudice.

I would hope that all musicians are able to discriminate between a good performance and a poor one. The problem comes about when that discrimination is clouded by prejudice, be it against a particular performer, or their style.

I would like to be able to say that I will listen to anything once, and then decide whether I like it or not. Having said that, I struggle to accept Disco and its spin offs.

Much of what could be said about rap - lots of volume, lots of rhythm, little or no melody, absolutely no harmony - could also be said about the most raw, traditional versions of shanties!

Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: GUEST,DDT
Date: 03 Feb 13 - 03:00 PM

I enjoy shanties but not rap and it's not because I think that I'm supposed to like shanties. It's definitely visceral. I have a visceral liking for shanties and a visceral dislike of rap. It's not just a description that makes me like or dislike a song or a genre, it's something I feel inside and it's instant. I don't have to convince myself of anything. I either like it or I don't. Frankly, it's beyond my control. Snobbery lies in how we choose to deal with that visceral reaction.

Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: number 6
Date: 03 Feb 13 - 03:21 PM

999 ... please accept my apologies .... I did not realize that quote was from that other person, not yours. Sometimes I read these posts here on the Madcat much too quickly. No excuse, I know.

If you really want 999 I will tell Laura that you love her

whoops ... I now realize you are just quoting a title from a song ... in that case I will not tell Laura that you love her.

biLL ... ;)

Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: GUEST,999
Date: 03 Feb 13 - 03:26 PM

biLL, never a problem between us even when we don't see things the same way. But, thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Feb 13 - 03:31 PM

Me? Snob?   Naaawww...

I agree with these opinions

Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: pdq
Date: 03 Feb 13 - 03:35 PM

"One poem I taught myself by 2nd grade was "The Highwayman" by Alfred Noyes because I loved it--no other reason."

If you haven't heard Phil Ochs adaptation of "The Highwayman" you should try to find it. Very powerful.

He also did a pretty good job with Poe's "The Bells".

Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: GUEST,999
Date: 03 Feb 13 - 03:54 PM

"When you want genuine music--music that will come right home to you like a bad quarter, suffuse your system like strychnine whisky, go right through you like Brandreth's pills, ramify your whole constitution like the measles, and break out on your hide like the pin-feather pimples on a picked goose,--when you want all this, just smash your piano, and invoke the glory-beaming banjo!"

From "Enthusiastic Eloquence," San Francisco Dramatic Chronicle, 6/23/1865 by Mark Twain.

#################################

Love your sense of humour, Bill.

Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Feb 13 - 04:26 PM

999 ..*smile* I appreciate that... It took me, oh, maybe 10 minutes out of my busy life to find those, scan them and post them...I'd hate to think it was wasted... ☺

(I think that cartoonists may be the best mirror for we humans to really look at ourselves)

Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: Don Firth
Date: 03 Feb 13 - 04:54 PM

A few years before I got interested in folk music, I took some singing lessons. I knew a couple of really good singers in high school and a couple of friends were heavily into opera. I listened to a batch of it, got a clue as to what was going on, and I still love it.

But a few years later, I discovered folk songs and ballads, and that's what I really wanted to sing.

My singing voice is not operatic. But it's fairly smooth, I sing on pitch, and I make sure my audiences can hear the words. I've always felt that my role—to borrow from Richard Dyer-Bennet*—is that of a modern day minstrel rather than that of a folk singer. I was born and raised in a city, my parents were both health professionals, I've never lived up in the hills, on a farm, or in a rural area, and I learned most of my songs, not from my toothless grandmother, but from song books, records, and other singers.

In addition, since I sing a wide variety of songs, I use a classic guitar, which is versatile enough to accompany anything from six-hundred year old ballads and songs to modern songs (even though I once had someone tell me "You can't play folk music on nylon strings!"). And I took a batch of classic guitar lessons. Also, the clothing I wear when I perform is appropriate to the venue, i.e., when I do a concert in a regular concert hall, I wear a dark suit and tie, and in a coffee house, I am more casually dressed in shirt (often a cotton turtle neck) and slacks.

I don't dress down because I sing folk songs.

I have had snide shots taken at me by occasional folk singers who take on the role of a "folk" to reflect the fact that they sing folk songs, even though their background is just as urban as mine is, and almost seem to be trying to hide the fact. They seem to think that one should not sing folk songs unless one wears scuzzy clothes, does one's darnedest to roughen up their voice, mush-mouth the words and both talk and sing in a phony dialect, and generally sound like they just rode into town with a wagonload of turnips. And a couple of them have felt it incumbent upon them to look down their noses at me because I don't.

Now, I got a real snort out of the New Lost City Ramblers when I saw them years ago. They did old-timey country string band music and songs, and on stage they wore plaid shirts and bib overalls, and clowned around a lot. But in addition to being darned good, they presented themselves as an act. They weren't trying to convince anyone that they were anything but three city boys who were performing country music.

I've found the all-too-frequent "folky snob" just as snobbish as the classical music buff who looks down his nose at folk music in general and admonishes me for wasting my time and talent with something so "trivial."

Don Firth

*I don't imitate Dyer-Bennet. In fact, I couldn't. He is a light tenor and I am a bass-baritone, and I take issue sometimes with the way he does certain songs. I do, however, try to emulate his approach (as a professional, a minstrel) to the music.

Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: Don Firth
Date: 03 Feb 13 - 05:02 PM

The approach I'm talking about:

Richard Dyer-Bennet was quoted as saying, "No song is ever harmed by being articulated clearly, on pitch, with sufficient control of phrase and dynamics to make the most of the poetry and melody, and with an instrumental accompaniment designed to enrich the whole effect."

I agree. One can do that without trying to imitate him.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: Bobert
Date: 03 Feb 13 - 05:40 PM

Life is too short to drink bad wine or listen to bad music... Guess that makes me a snob???

Hey, let's get real here... I appreciate good music... Even genres I'm not generally into... I know if someone is messing up even if it's opera... And I know if they ain't messin' up... Guess that comes from listening to lots of music...

The P-Vine and I were at this monstrously large antique/collectables mall yesterday and they were playing "old time" (not bluegrass) music... Well, the P-Vine is a classically trained singer and it was really bugging her... She kept complaining that the folks were off key... I tried to explain that a lot of mountain music is sung in modal keys but that didn't make her happy... She just hasn't been exposed and therefore not able to appreciate old time music...

I donno... I guess that makes her kinda snobbish...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: pdq
Date: 03 Feb 13 - 06:07 PM

I believe the intonation problems you here in Old Time Music are from the untempered scale.

The traditional English Folk Music and Scottish fidde tune tradition probaly predates the tempered scale used in European "classical" music since about the time of Bach.

Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: Jeri
Date: 03 Feb 13 - 06:09 PM

Does she have perfect pitch? That could really make some music tough.

I like what I like, and there may be many reasons why. I first heard Cajun music on the folks show out of WRPI in Troy, NY (Jacqui Alper hosted, back in 1973 or something). I thought it was the most horrible, gross, uncool music I'd ever heard. Disgusting. Cut to 1987, and I was trying to learn how to play it, because it was the most amazing stuff I'd heard. (Totally irrelevant 'BTW': this was about the same year I heard a show and wrote down the name of a group I'd really liked: "Steel Ice Band".)

Music I don't like --IF it's well done-- is usually music I don't understand. I don't understand rap, but there's one song I love. I don't understand jazz, but I'd never say it's all bad just because I don't get it. I'm not a big fan of bluegrass, but I can get into it sometimes. I can't think of anything I loathe 100% of. Bad musicians are closest.

Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: Jack Campin
Date: 03 Feb 13 - 06:17 PM

Here is an example:

Don Byron on Andy Statman

the snide stuff starts at 9:21.

He can't even mention Statman by name, in the same way that Al Whittle hates Martin Carthy so much he can only number him as one of an anonymous gang of "traddies".

Bugger him. Listen to this:

Andy Statman and Zev Feldman

Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Feb 13 - 07:48 PM

On the contrary I like Martin's work very much. Have several of his records - two DVD's. I've had him stop in my house.
Seen him play innumerable times. Have one setting on my variax - tuned to his Famous Flower of Serving Men tuning - C tuning.
I just don't think that's the only way to sing folksongs. And actually - neither does Martin.

Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: Joe_F
Date: 03 Feb 13 - 08:17 PM

I suppose being reactionary counts as one kind of snobbery. For me, something dreadful happened to popular music about the time I was born (1937). It probably had something to do with the shift from a hit being a song that sold a lot of sheet music to being one that sold a lot of records.

Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: GUEST,999
Date: 03 Feb 13 - 08:32 PM

Just because ya do or don't like something is not a measure of snobbishness. However, when ya say shit like this or that music is better than this or that music just because you think so, then there's a problem. IMO, Mahler was one of the world's geniuses of music. I do not care who does or does not agree with me. Nor do I care who does or does not agree that Dylan is a great song writer. Nor do I care who does or does not agree that October Winds is a great song with a beautiful melody, or Silent Night or, or, or. These things are a matter of personal taste and not something I would wish to or would argue in public.

I like many pasta dishes. Some are better than others I suppose. But I also like Kraft Dinner on occasion, and I don't really care who does or doesn't like it. However, that's speaking for myself. If YOU came to supper, I'd find out what you like and cook that for you because then what YOU liked would be important to me.

I would not go into a trad club and sing because I know very little about trad or the music. I have heard some wonderful singers do great songs that I have enjoyed very much. I have also heard some who should have taken up needle point instead of their chosen art.

I dislike arrogance and people who decide what is good or bad. You don't like it, don't stay. Door's over there. That's what I suggest to snobs.

Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: Ron Davies
Date: 03 Feb 13 - 08:45 PM

Tell Laura not to cry.

Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: Rapparee
Date: 03 Feb 13 - 08:47 PM

I happen to own a copy of the Duke of Bedford's "Book of Snobs."

Me? If I don't like I don't listen to it. And as Amos knows, I can deliberately disgrace and destroy a song (as I did one night at Getaway). But you can only do that if you love the music -- like Victor Borge or Peter Schickele (PDQ Bach).

Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: GUEST,999
Date: 03 Feb 13 - 08:53 PM

Ditto, Ron.

Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 04 Feb 13 - 05:05 AM

I watched a fascinating documentary two nights ago about Ravi Shankar, the sitar player of great renown. Now Indian music is intriguing, it has semi-tones and quarter-tones, so it seems to slide up and down seductively. Absolutely wonderful stuff to lose oneself in.

Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: Mooh
Date: 04 Feb 13 - 06:52 AM

I think my outward appearance to someone who is uninformed about my tastes and experience may be one of snobbery, yes. If all one knew of me was the celtic folk festival performances one might unreasonably assume that was all there was to me and that I was closeminded to other music forms. Wrong.

In the course of my work I have to teach a wide variety of musical styles, some not really to my liking, but all get my attention and honest effort for the sake of student progress and success. If we are to encourage students to play music we must accommodate their tastes. Those tastes will change, widen, and evolve anyway. I can't afford to be a snob, not only would it lessen me as a person and teacher, it would reduce my income and limit my own possibilities.

Yesterday morning found me singing in the church choir, the afternoon found me practicing celtic tunes (guitar/flute), the evening would have found me jamming classic rock with some old friends if the weather had been better. Today I will teach some guitar lessons in pop (likely stuff like One Direction), classical, a jazz tune or two, ukulele, and some songwriting. One highlight is teaching a severely disabled man anything at all. You want to cut snobbery to the quick? Teach the extrememly mentally challenged.

I find way more musical snobbery in young male metal guitar players than in any other genre. These folks can be very closeminded and disparaging. They usually soften their stance as they mature, usually as they follow their heros doing the same.

It's too hard to learn new things with one's nose in the air.

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 04 Feb 13 - 07:09 AM

""You mean there are people who can't tell that opera and symphonic music are more complex and demanding to compose and perform than hip-hop and trad?

No way. If so, they're beyond hope.

I'm not crazy about opera, but even I know that much.""

If that was not a direct response to my post Lighter, then ignore this.

If it was a direct response you missed my point entirely.

I was talking about those who try to establish exclusive ownership of those genres by pricing and/or embarrassing what they would call the plebs out of participation.

Think Glyndebourne, for which a "Right Honourable" prefix to one's name, or a foreign diplomatic position are prerequisites for having any real chance of getting tickets.

Disliking, or liking, certain genres is not a definition of snobbery, even if one is crass enough to think that one's dislike makes a genre crap.

A snob is one who believes that the rest of the world is too stupid to understand or participate in his chosen genre (whichever one that is) and should therefore be kept out.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: Ron Davies
Date: 04 Feb 13 - 11:06 AM

"visceral dislike of rap"    Well, it seems to me that can be seen as very well justified in large part.

First of all, anybody interested in melody is out of luck.    Melody is hugely important to me (and others, I suspect). Too bad for us.

Then there's subject matter:    misogynistic lyrics, attacks on the police, glorification of weapons and crime--and to top it off, foul language.   There are exceptions on the subject matter issue, but in general that's what it is.

I mean, what's not to like?    How could anybody object?


So, fine, lots of ballads glorify crime and attack authority.   Na und? Actually, the criminal often repents at the scaffold;   the ballads are often quite moralistic.   So, again, there may be exceptions;    I don't think Sam Hall is sorry for his deeds.   Nor the main protagonist in
"Adieu, adieu". And there's lots of misogyny in folk.

OK, well if these had throbbing bass tracks, no melody, and were loaded with scatalogical language, I don't think many of us would rave about them either.

For rap, my benediction would be taken from "Fiddler on the Roof".   Is there a blessing for   commercial rap music?   Of course. May God bless and keep it---far away from us.

Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 04 Feb 13 - 11:59 AM

RE glyndebourne....I hate that kind of sterotyping, that all who go there are upper crusty snobs....I go..I am neither rt.honourable nor rich, I just happen to like opera. I also like Folk, Jazz, Blues..all kinds of music as long as it is well played or sung.
The real snobs are those who equate opera and classical music lovers with elites..it is a narrow and infuriating point of view.

Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: Ron Davies
Date: 04 Feb 13 - 01:01 PM

Maybe it's more of a UK thing-- a heightened sense of class consciousness?   It doesn't bother me if those who are fans of opera and classical music in general are thought to be elites.    Why should I care what people who hold that opinion think? I can converse knowledgeably on early rock, doo-wop, country, bluegrass, western swing, folk, sea chanteys, etc.--since I love a lot of it--in addition to classical music.

I wouldn't have much to say to somebody who thought that rap--or folk-- is the only form of music worth listening to--though a lot more to a folkie than to a rap addict. I'd just know that person is depriving himself or herself of a lot of pleasure.

Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 04 Feb 13 - 01:12 PM

It bothers me if they are thought to be elites..because it is a form of stereotyping that is railed against by most thinking people. Frankly, I am sick and tired of being referred to as an elitists because I like certain things...its a bore and is usually perpetrated by people of some considerable ignorance.

Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 04 Feb 13 - 01:19 PM

I think Mooh has it right when he says,"If we are to encourage students to play music we must accommodate their tastes."

I have run across too many music students who had bad instructional experiences because their teacher used their position to impose their own musical tastes. These teachers don't understand that most people want to learn to play a particular sort of music because they want to be a part of the community that listens to it.

As people get older, they tend to recognize that there are broader, more diverse communities out there, that they want to be a part of.
As music teachers, our challenge is to give them skills that they can build on.

Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 04 Feb 13 - 01:30 PM

Oh, and for the record, I know a lot of people who create both pop and hip-hop/rap music. Don't any of you kid yourselves; this is well crafted music, performed and created by highly talented and highly skilled people. It may not be your cup of tea, but it speaks to millions of people, deal with it however you may...

Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: Ron Davies
Date: 04 Feb 13 - 01:43 PM

But people who stereotype are often just showing their own ignorance.   So let them do it--though I think my description of rap is not far off the mark.

At any rate, if we are thought elitists since we like classical music, we can see it as sour grapes---and as I said, we are actually quite lucky to be able to appreciate classical music; it has to do with the environment we were brought up in.


Just like we are really, really lucky to have grown up in an era of such fantastic pop music--especially 1956 to about 1980 (though to include disco may be stretching the definition of "fantastic pop music" beyond recognition.)    But listening to the top 40 of the year a few years ago sure drove home the point that our pop music was light years beyond the current crop.

OK, yes, that's what our parents probably said. And in fact, in my view, they were right---the best pop music ever was 1920's through 1940s.   Depression and war, for some reason, brought out the best in pop music--wit, sophisticated lyrics in general, heartfelt sentiments, and wonderful melodies. Yeah, I know about Mairzy Doats--exception that proves the rule.   But if you doubt it, check the list of the top 40 for any year in the 30s or 40s.

Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: pdq
Date: 04 Feb 13 - 01:46 PM

"... hip-hop/rap music. Don't any of you kid yourselves; this is well crafted music, performed and created by highly talented and highly skilled people."

Fine, but fans of this stuff can listen to it on earphones.

Anyone who blasts any noise into my house that is loud enough to make the dog throw-up on the carpet should be jailed (or worse).

Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: Ron Davies
Date: 04 Feb 13 - 01:46 PM

"well-crafted music". Right.   Anything you say.

It sells. I don't think being well-crafted is the goal.

And as I said, melody is a bit lacking.

Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Feb 13 - 02:03 PM

I'm glad no one has seen it is as necessary for this thread to be shifted up into the music section. It's a good example of sonmthing that set me to start this thread just now, a discussion that straddles the two halves of the Mudcat.

Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 04 Feb 13 - 02:10 PM

Without meaning to sound condescending, Ron, what you or I think doesn't really figure in any of this. As to the melody business, it's dance music, and as you know, in many cultures, traditional dance music is often played on percussion instruments only, so, in that sense, you're actually getting a bit extra.

Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 04 Feb 13 - 02:39 PM

I'm glad no one has seen it is as necessary for this thread to be shifted up into the music section. It's a good example of sonmthing that set me to start this thread just now, a discussion that straddles the two halves of the Mudcat.

I don't understand why this thread is below the line. It has a BS tag but I don't think that it is in any way borderline. It is about music and people's attitude to it. It belongs up top.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Feb 13 - 03:01 PM

And it's pulled in a whole bunch of people who might well have missed it above the line, and they have carried out a civilised discussion that touches on other aspects of prejudice and snobbery.

This kind f thing isn't just about music, it's also about all kinds of other things. The music is   A way f finding examples. Books, plays, films, the way people dress and speak...

Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: Ron Davies
Date: 04 Feb 13 - 03:14 PM

Doug--absolutely.   That's what I said earlier.




"percussion instruments only"...." a bit extra"

This bears an amazing resemblance to grasping at straws--or lipstick on a pig.    Look, in rap, there is no melody.

Therefore for those of us partial to melodies, something is lacking.   Plain and simple.

And the lyrics therefore bear an even large burden than usual   Please give us all the lyrics to a rap song which in your view is "well-crafted", since this is supposedly a strong suit for rap.

Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: Ron Davies
Date: 04 Feb 13 - 03:15 PM

"larger burden"

Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 04 Feb 13 - 03:22 PM

This kind f thing isn't just about music, it's also about all kinds of other things.

Look at the thread title. It is not about snobbery in general but specifically refers to music. Thread drift may well bring in other aspects but it doesn't change the fact that this is primarily a music thread and belongs up top.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: Ron Davies
Date: 04 Feb 13 - 03:38 PM

Amen.

Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Feb 13 - 04:20 PM

Well if you go by the title people put on threads,,,    About half the music threads would be shifted down here.

It's convenient having two sets of threads, because before it happened the fact that BS threads tended to involve people batting back replies much quicker than the more music related ones. That gave a completely false impression that there were more threads like that.   But convenience shouldn't compel us to inconvenience all the people who found it convenient to post to this while it was below the line.

Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: Ron Davies
Date: 04 Feb 13 - 04:43 PM

Both the title and the content are obviously about music. To allege anything else is willful blindness.

Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Feb 13 - 04:57 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Feb 13 - 05:00 PM

Consistency is contrary to nature, contrary to life. The only completely consistent people are the dead."
― Aldous Huxley,


"Consistency is the hallmark of the unimaginative."
― Oscar Wilde

Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 04 Feb 13 - 07:20 PM

"But listening to the top 40 of the year a few years ago sure drove home the point that our pop music was light years beyond the current crop."

It can also be exaggerated though as to how great things were 40 years ago. Lot of good stuff about then but a lot of less impressive stuff too. We've been watching the old repeats of TOTP since they stared showing them last year at 1976. Skip through most of it as it is pretty dire. Plus there is some good stuff about now too. Just because it doesn't get in the charts doesn't mean it isn't there. Kids nowadays also have easy access to so much. Much more than we did. They can go onto youtube, napster or whatever and listen to all the 60s and 70s stuff etc - and many do. They aren't all just listening to rap or dubstep. My own 17 year old son seems to be playing mostly early 70s Van Morrison, mid 60s Dylan and anything by Bruce Springsteen at the moment. What I've noticed though is it doesn't work asking him to listen to things. He likes to discover them. May seem absurd to us that someone just suddenly discovers something like Neil Young - but to them it is all new. I was kind of the same. No-one in my house played classical music but for some reason one day I bought a recording of Holst's The Planets and was blown away. To me it was new.

Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 04 Feb 13 - 08:11 PM

Snobbery is not about taste. It's about feeling superior to others. There are many types of music I don't like, but I don't feel I'm in any way superior to those who do like them. I've just had a different set of life experiences than they have, and those experiences have led me to like particular styles of music. If I'd been in my high school band, I'd probably like brass instruments instead of thinking they should all be melted down and turned into guitar strings.

Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: Ron Davies
Date: 04 Feb 13 - 08:27 PM

If you start at 1976, I'd certainly agree a good portion of the pop hits are pretty dire.   The best years were before 1976.

We've been over this before.   For my money the best year for pop music in the rock era was 1966.   In the US charts that year were big hits by the Beatles, Beach Boys, Simon and Garfunkel, Lovin' Spoonful, Supremes, 4 Tops, Temptations, Marvelettes, Miracles, Mamas and Papas, Dionne Warwick, Peter and Gordon, Peter Paul and Mary, etc. All in that one year. And no doubt I've left some out. Even some interesting novelty songs like Winchester Cathedral, and Lovin' You Has Made Me Bananas. And a lot of it was surprisingly mature in any number of ways.   Peter Paul and Mary's offering was in fact mocking some of the others.

There were good songs after 1966, sure, but I'd posit that that the sheer wealth and variety of good stuff peaked in 1966 and began a slow decline. The influence of drugs didn't help--it seemed starting in 1967 that it was awfully easy to snow a drug-addled public with mindless repetition and twisting dials in a studio.

And the 1920's through 1940's were even better than any year in the rock era--probably for the reason I cited.