British Rock n Roll

Subject: British Rock n Roll
From: GUEST,Blindlemonsteve
Date: 07 Feb 07 - 04:32 PM

Hi everyone, just thinking about a previous thread when someone mentioned Cliff & the Shadows "Move it" as a classic. I think its fair to say that "Move it" was the first British Rock N Roll record, certainly the first record that stood its ground against the American invasion.
Well, next year "Move It" will be 50 years old, so effectively British Rock n Roll will be 50 years old. So my question for this thread is,,,,, What would you like to see as a celebration of 50 years of British rock music.
Ive had this conversation with some friends, but i would love to hear other peoples views.

Subject: RE: British Rock n Roll
From: Alec
Date: 07 Feb 07 - 04:40 PM

Tommy Steele was there first but "Move it" was the first British rock 'n' roll song to be sung in an unequivocally English accent.
In the closely related field of Skiffle Lonnie Donegan probably inspired more people to take up an instrument than anybody else in postwar British music.
For that reason a statue of him would seem appropriate.

Subject: RE: British Rock n Roll
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 07 Feb 07 - 04:42 PM

I'd like to see Rock n roll dead and buried. This repulsive, infantile racket has dominated our culture for too long!

Subject: RE: British Rock n Roll
From: GUEST,ian
Date: 07 Feb 07 - 04:54 PM

oh my my,what a blinkered view shimrod has.Does it matter if it was Cliff or whoever gave us something to call british r/roll ?The main thing is it all gave us a feel good factor.Something our parents could not grasp,like all those who came after.just to have something for the young to call there own was the great thing about r/roll.Big leaps in music for good or bad come only now and then.Rock/Roll,Progessive and Punk took music on and moved youth.please give us music that the 40 somethings don't feel on a par with their kids to move us on again,FAST.

Subject: RE: British Rock n Roll
From: bubblyrat
Date: 07 Feb 07 - 05:05 PM

I remember Cliff ( or Harry,as I like to call him ) having a big hit with " Travelling Light " . This record was released in Spain, but they don"t have any understanding or conception of the idea of travelling without much luggage,or maybe just a toothbrush. The rcord was released in Spain as "The Light That Travels " ----!!!

Subject: RE: British Rock n Roll
From: Scrump
Date: 07 Feb 07 - 05:08 PM

Yes, Cliff's Move It was a classic English rock 'n' roll record. But there were plenty of other artists before him who helped get rock 'n' roll established in Britain, including Terry Dene, Wee Willie Harris, and (as mentioned above) Tommy Steele. Then there were Marty Wilde, and loads of others I forget right now.

Subject: RE: British Rock n Roll
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 Feb 07 - 05:11 PM

Billy Fury

Subject: RE: British Rock n Roll
From: bubblyrat
Date: 07 Feb 07 - 05:13 PM

I forgot to say ! Err----Ummm---To be honest, I more or less agree with Shimrod ,actually !! I mean, a lot of stuff from the 50s & 60s ,I could put up with, in fact ,some of it was almost memorable, but anything since about 1970 has been utter rubbish !! It"s like rock 'n'roll reached a certain level,& then just came to a grinding halt and has faded away !! And "rap" is positively EVIL !!!

Subject: RE: British Rock n Roll
From: Scrump
Date: 07 Feb 07 - 05:19 PM

bubblyrat, are you just talking about rock 'n' roll, or rock/pop in general? Most people would say R 'n' R was primarily 1950s music, and although some people probably still play it today (in bands or on record), since the 1960s it has been replaced by other forms of pop or rock music. Most people wouldn't call the Beatles music Rock 'n' Roll, although they did record some R 'n' R songs (but it was a small percentage of their total output).

Subject: RE: British Rock n Roll
From: Rasener
Date: 07 Feb 07 - 05:28 PM

Endless Sleep - Marty Wilde 1958 I think I will go and see him at Grimsby in April.

He is doing a Born To Rock N Roll Marty Wilde In Concert 50th Anniversary Tour with teh Wildcats and special guests.

I just love what Marty did in those days. Wonder if he is as good now, or has he gone like Cliff - sickly.

I hope he sticks to R&R

Subject: RE: British Rock n Roll
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 07 Feb 07 - 05:39 PM

Cliff Richard and the Shadows - "Move It "

Subject: RE: British Rock n Roll
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 07 Feb 07 - 05:58 PM

This is far too serious an issue to be taken quickly or lightly.

I must rest and think with a clear head or drink a lot more.

But ....... Th Animals?

Subject: RE: British Rock n Roll
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Feb 07 - 06:13 PM

Why are you discussing R and R on a folk music site? Surely there are 100 sites for R & R.

Subject: RE: British Rock n Roll
From: Rasener
Date: 07 Feb 07 - 06:28 PM

Why not Bill

We don't have to be blinkered. I run a folk club, but that doesn't stop me being very interested in all other forms of music.

Subject: RE: British Rock n Roll
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Feb 07 - 06:35 PM

Joe Brown, of course.

Subject: RE: British Rock n Roll
From: Scrump
Date: 07 Feb 07 - 06:52 PM

Sticking my neck out: actually, Cliff Richard's slightly later hits Living Doll and Travelling Light were not R&R, but almost folky, being based on a predominantly acoustic guitar arrangement (albeit with subtle electric guitar, bass and drums).

Having lit blue touch paper, I shall now retire :D

Subject: RE: British Rock n Roll
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Feb 07 - 07:05 PM

" I run a folk club, but that doesn't stop me being very interested in all other forms of music."

of course...but that is not the issue. I like classical and Dixieland jazz too, but if I want to raise issues about them, I'd go to a site for exactly that.

ah, well...I feel like King Canute trying to sweep back the waves. At least I can insert my objections now & then.

Subject: RE: British Rock n Roll
From: TRUBRIT
Date: 07 Feb 07 - 10:32 PM

Apologies for continuing this 'wrong' topic on this site, but THANK YOU for the Blast from the Past - Cliff and the Shads doing Move it ... (who was the fourth Shadow?? I remember Jet Harris, Hank Marvin, Bruce Welch -- oh, yes, was it Tony Meehan?).

I LOVED Joe Brown........; and of course there WAS Marty Wilde, The Animals and Billy Fury -- Adam Faith? Oh well, perhaps not???

Subject: RE: British Rock n Roll
From: Alba
Date: 07 Feb 07 - 10:35 PM

Eh any chance of moving this Thread down to BS so the folks that are enjoying it can continue to discuss it without offending anyone in the Music section...just a thought.
Best to All
Jude

Subject: RE: British Rock n Roll
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 07 Feb 07 - 11:00 PM

Rockabilly is a very potent little cult in England at the moment. Something I just stumbled across by accident. The level of musicianship and creativity is very high.

As such, it has a lot of potential to make a contribution of importance to English folk music. when a form of music captures the imagination of talented young musicians and writers, there has to be that possibility.

Cliff was never really interested in making statements til he got Christianised - his line always seemed to be the latest song that Denmark street came up with for him, and the latest Norrie Paramour arrangement.

Nevertheless his songs are known by more English people than any recognised folk songs. Which surely tells the folk song movement - it is getting something wrong, and we need to be learning from different sources. Hank Marvin has to be the one of the most influential musicians of our generation - Cliff was lucky to have a brilliant band like the Shadows. I think they gave him credibility at a point when his choice of songs was so very Denmark Street.

Subject: RE: British Rock n Roll
From: Alba
Date: 07 Feb 07 - 11:08 PM

Absolutely Al.
Rockabilly and Skiffle both.
The cross over from Popular/Folk Music to Rock and Roll in the UK was very different from how it happened in the States.
Good to see you Al.
Shame about this thread it could have been VERY interesting.
Jude

Subject: RE: British Rock n Roll
From: Peace
Date: 07 Feb 07 - 11:11 PM

Youtube Video--crank the volume!

Subject: RE: British Rock n Roll
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Feb 07 - 11:17 PM

*wince*

;>)

*heading for the hills*

Subject: RE: British Rock n Roll
From: Peace
Date: 07 Feb 07 - 11:20 PM

Youtube Video just for Bill D. CRANK THE VOLUME!

Subject: RE: British Rock n Roll
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Feb 07 - 11:22 PM

uhhhh.....impressive

Welcome to Mudcat, Peace...*big grin*

Subject: RE: British Rock n Roll
From: Peace
Date: 07 Feb 07 - 11:23 PM

Youtube--Juice Newton did it, but Dave did it first!

Oh, yeah, crank the volume!

Subject: RE: British Rock n Roll
From: Peace
Date: 07 Feb 07 - 11:24 PM

LOLOL

Subject: RE: British Rock n Roll
From: Peace
Date: 07 Feb 07 - 11:30 PM

Youtube: One can hear the gospel influence here. Not British though.

Subject: RE: British Rock n Roll
From: Peace
Date: 07 Feb 07 - 11:30 PM

Uh, sorry about the thread drift on that last song. I'll go now.

Subject: RE: British Rock n Roll
From: Scrump
Date: 08 Feb 07 - 02:52 AM

I've seen lots of threads above the line discussing artists and music that would not be considered 'folk', so I don't see why people are objecting to this one.

Subject: RE: British Rock n Roll
From: Alec
Date: 08 Feb 07 - 03:10 AM

Originally Rock 'n' Roll was a blend of Country music & R 'n' B
both of which were local variants of Folk music.
Ergo Rock 'n' Roll is a logical entailment of the Folk process Q.E.D.

"Preacher in the pulpit,roars with all his might,
sings GLORY HALLELUJAH puts folkies all in a fright.
Now you might think it's Satan comin' down the aisle,
but it's only BILL D,Puttin' on the style."

Tongue very much in cheek. :-)

Subject: RE: British Rock n Roll
From: Rasener
Date: 08 Feb 07 - 03:17 AM

LOL I like it Alec

Subject: RE: British Rock n Roll
From: fat B****rd
Date: 08 Feb 07 - 04:26 AM

Brucie, correct attitude, my man. It's only rock'n'roll, as they say.Historically speaking the musicians who played on the early (and to-days) British records should be celebrated. Joe Moretti ("Shakin' All Over) had skiffle connections as did a fair few of these sessioneers. Wether they liked playing "pop" music is irrelevant. But bear in mind a history of British Rock'n'Roll should in theory have started with "Rock With The Cavemen") IMO.
Celebration ? You would have to include many an anger-inducing name in that.
PS I'm off to check out the Peace/Dave Edmunds connection. Rock On !!

Subject: RE: British Rock n Roll
From: Grab
Date: 08 Feb 07 - 04:31 AM

anything since about 1970 has been utter rubbish

I liked folk music, but everything since about 1870 has been utter rubbish...

Graham.

Subject: RE: British Rock n Roll
From: Stu
Date: 08 Feb 07 - 04:33 AM

I think we should celebrate the unique fusion of rock/blues/folk that is Led Zeppelin - the culmination of all those disparate influences with a healthy wash of whatever 'British' is all over it.


It's been a long time since I rock and rolled,
It's been a long time since I did the Stroll.
Ooh, let me get it back, let me get it back,
Let me get it back, baby, where I come from.
It's been a long time, been a long time,
Been a long lonely, lonely, lonely, lonely, lonely time. Yes it has.


Yahoo!

Subject: RE: British Rock n Roll
From: Scrump
Date: 08 Feb 07 - 04:50 AM

It's interesting that a couple of people mentioned The Animals above, in the context of R&R. I wouldn't have categorised them that way, as they came later (first 'proper' record not issued until 1964). They were one of the leading bands in the UK 'R&B' boom of the early/mid 1960s. (R&B = Rhythm & Blues, not to be confused with the very different stuff today that uses that same label).

I was a great fan of the Animals, Yardbirds, Georgie Fame & The Blue Flames, Downliners Sect and other bands around that time (1964-5). Indeed, the Rolling Stones were in that category in their early days.

But I wouldn't have said these were (at least, primarily) R&R bands (although admittedly, the Animals, Yardbirds, Stones and others did record some R&R songs by Chuck Berry, etc.).

Subject: RE: British Rock n Roll
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Feb 07 - 05:12 AM

I think also when Steeleye Span mention Status Quo as an important influence, there is undeniable cross fertilisation going on between the folkmusic world and that of of rock.

My brother in law is a Steeleye fanatic - never misses a concert or a re-issue, or an offshoot cd. he reckons the present line up with Ken Nicol on guitar is the strongest he has ever seen.

I'm a great admirer of Ken. It is hard to imagine as any group featuring such a talent as anything other than wonderful, but surely his very eclecticism is the sort of thing some of the contributors to this thread seem to take exception to.

Subject: RE: British Rock n Roll
From: Rasener
Date: 08 Feb 07 - 05:51 AM

Frederic Albert Heath (Johnny Kidd) and the Pirates - please don't touch 1959

The best was 1960 - Shakin All Over

pop artist recording folk song
Steve Winwood - John Barleycorn

>>but surely his very eclecticism is the sort of thing some of the contributors to this thread seem to take exception to<<

Unfortunately so Al

Subject: RE: British Rock n Roll
From: Scrump
Date: 08 Feb 07 - 07:36 AM

Ken Nicol is a great musician and entertainer, even on his own.

Subject: RE: British Rock n Roll
From: Leadbelly
Date: 08 Feb 07 - 07:53 AM

Think of Tony Sheridan (who started 1958 in "Oh Boy"). Don't know whether he has had a hit in british charts, but he was popular in Germany (My Bonnie...) and played some songs together with the Beatles in Hamburg's Star Club araund 1961, I believe.
Today, he lives near Hamburg.

Manfred

Subject: RE: British Rock n Roll
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 08 Feb 07 - 08:17 AM

"bubblyrat, are you just talking about rock 'n' roll, or rock/pop in general? Most people would say R 'n' R was primarily 1950s music, and although some people probably still play it today (in bands or on record), since the 1960s it has been replaced by other forms of pop or rock music. Most people wouldn't call the Beatles music Rock 'n' Roll, although they did record some R 'n' R songs"

Isn't it odd? It's OK to to obsess about 'definitions' when discussing Rock n Roll or Rock/Pop or 'Rockabilly-Garage-Grunge-Punk' or whatever stupid racket happens to be fashionable during this particular microsecond - but insist that Folk Music should be played in a Folk Club and then you get told that "there's only music" and anything goes. One rule for Rock fans and another for people who like Folk.

Subject: RE: British Rock n Roll
From: Azizi
Date: 08 Feb 07 - 08:36 AM

Here's a quote from that Mudcat thread whose link Bill D provided:

Subject: RE: One best rock song of all time, and why.
From: GUEST,Whistle Stop - PM
Date: 07 Nov 03 - 01:05 PM

I think purism is silly; I can't think of a single important musical development over the ages that grew out of purist thinking. And fretting about whether one should dare to discuss rock music in a folk forum where just about everything gets discussed at one time or another is equally silly...

-snip-

Speaking for myself, I like reading about this topic. Thanks for starting another thread on British Rock n Roll, Blindlemonsteve.

As a result of this thread & the other Bill linked to, I went seaching for threads on Skiffle, since I didn't have a clue what is meant by that word. I found a definition for it in this thread:thread.cfm?threadid=41415#597993 .

For the benefit of those who are still on dial-up, I'm going to repost a long quote from that thread, because I think it is relevant to the discussion we are having now.

"Subject: RE: BS: One more Bloody Roger th Skiffler thread
From: GUEST,Roger the skiffler - PM
Date: 23 Nov 01 - 09:16 AM

...and this which I've probably posted before...

SKIFFLE

WHAT IS SKIFFLE?

The term "SKIFFLE" has a variety of meanings but always refers to informal, good time music, usually using home-made or improvised instruments such as the washboard, wash-tub or tea-chest bass, kazoo, cigar-box fiddle, comb and paper etc. Depending on your age and country you might define skiffle as:

1) The spasm bands, usually children, seen on the streets of New Orleans around 1900.

2) Rent-party music in 1920s and 30s USA involving piano, guitar, fiddle, but rarely the washboard.

3) The jug bands of Louisville and Memphis 1920s and 30s.

4) Novelty Jazz Bands of the 1940s and 50s using clarinet/sax mouthpieces on bamboo or wooden pipes, plungerphone, funnel with trumpet mouthpiece, washtub bass etc.

5) A mixture of USA folk music, tin-pan alley, and music-hall played as pop music in Britain in the late 1950s, typically using guitar, washboard and tea-chest bass. Lots of famous British rock stars got started by playing in skiffle bands, e.g. the Beatles, Van Morrison (who made a skiffle CD with Lonnie Donegan in 1999) Although they will probably have never heard of Leadbelly or Woody Guthrie, for a lot of British people over a certain age this music is part of their pop music nostalgia.


6) Current bands playing jug-band, Leadbelly songs etc. or "British" skiffle i.e. songs recorded by British artists in the 1950s, but all generally copying originals thus extending the life of this music

7) Current bands making their own music or adapting popular songs so the music lives and changes

The word "SKIFFLE" was probably first used by pianist Hersel Thomas (who died in 1926) to describe the music played at a house rent party (also called "skuffle" music). A record called "Hometown Skiffle" was released in 1929 featuring featuring Blind Lemon Jefferson, Blind Blake, Will Ezell, Charlie Spand, The Hokum Boys and Papa Charlie Jackson.

"SKIFFLE" was later used to describe American black folk bands who mostly had to improvise traditional African instruments by using household implements. The bent sapling with cord tied to a skin over a hole in the earth became the washtub bass. (Tea-chest in UK). The gourd became a jug and the scraped ass's jaw became the washboard. The kazoo developed from an African instrument using an animal skin as the membrane (often built into a mask and used for religious ceremonies)"...
-snip-

So is skiffle music part of British Rock n Roll? What are some examples of skiffle songs? And are there any Youtube video clips that anyone could recommend to us folks who don't know what skiffle is?

And if I was wrong in reposting these comments, I'll take my punishment like a woman :0)

But please don't make that punishment be that I have to listen to some forms of American popular music that I hate...I'll not mention any genres or any artists' names less people get any ideas.

Subject: RE: British Rock n Roll
From: Scrump
Date: 08 Feb 07 - 08:36 AM

"obsess"?

I was simply asking bubblyrat for clarification on his remark in an earlier posting. I don't think that counts as an obsession, and I don't think many people would.

Isn't it odd how some people have to exaggerate or twist things to suit their own view of the universe?

Subject: RE: British Rock n Roll
From: Scrump
Date: 08 Feb 07 - 08:40 AM

The above posting referred to the last one by "GUEST,Shimrod" and not Azizi.

Subject: RE: British Rock n Roll
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 08 Feb 07 - 08:45 AM

We're all folk. It's all music. All music is therefore folk music. Children, stop arguing!

Subject: RE: British Rock n Roll
From: JeremyC
Date: 08 Feb 07 - 08:53 AM

I think it's fascinating how English rock music and skiffle created the--what was it, the second wave? of the English folk revival. I mean John Renbourn, Bert Jansch, and Martin Carthy, if I'm not mistaken, all were very influenced by skiffle and American blues players like Big Bill Broonzy and Blind Boy Fuller. Besides that, it seems to me that Eric Clapton single-handedly created interest in Robert Johnson.

Of course, since the 50s and 60s, rock and folk music have diverged further, but they do come from similar roots. Folk musicians--even the "greats"--don't exist in a vacuum, and I think a truly great musician can learn from any type of music he or she is exposed to.

Subject: RE: British Rock n Roll
From: Grab
Date: 08 Feb 07 - 09:21 AM

Not odd at all, Shimrod - you're simply exposing that you don't know anything at all about the genre. This may be a reason, but not an excuse, for saying "because I don't understand it and don't like it, it's just a stupid racket".

For the record...

Chuck Berry, the Stones, Led Zep, Rick Wakeman, Aerosmith, Metallica and the Automatic are all recognisably playing rock - and they're all equally recognisably playing in different styles for those who know rock. If you don't recognise the difference, it betrays your unfamiliarity with what to listen for.

Old-time, Cape Breton, Irish, English, Scottish and Shetland fiddle players all play in different styles, so some tunes clearly aren't playable in certain styles, and others are played with different phrasing in different traditions. If you don't recognise the differences between the styles and the tunes, it betrays your unfamiliarity with what to listen for.

Steve Sun, Mike Mirror and Nick Newsoftheworld would likely class everything with orchestras as "classical" - they wouldn't or couldn't differentiate between baroque, Romantic or modern. If you don't recognise the differences between Bach and Beethoven, say, it betrays your unfamiliarity with what to listen for.

This is simply categorisation by similarity of style. Folk *absolutely* does this. Ever been to a tune session, or a singaround? Tried exclusively singing songs in a tune session, or exclusively playing tunes in a singaround? Or to be more specific, ever tried playing Old-timey tunes in an Irish session? Or to diversify a bit, how's about suggesting to a baroque or early-music specialist that you'd like to hear some Gershwin?

As for "liking folk", any folk in particular? I like folk in general, but to be more specific, Old-time leaves me cold, and more than a couple of hours of unaccompanied singing tends to leave me jonesing for someone to play an instrument. We all know you don't like singer-songwriter or folk-rock. And here we are categorising by similarity of style again...

Graham.

Subject: RE: British Rock n Roll
From: Alec
Date: 08 Feb 07 - 10:29 AM

Slightly off topic but if I were to compile a list of favourite Rock,Folk & Country performers of my lifetime I would put Roger McGuin on all three lists.
Here's a quote from the lad himself from the January editon of Acoustic Magazine (On the subject of influences on his songwriting style.) "...we (The Byrds)were influenced by The Beatles,we wanted to be a band like that,and when I was working with Bobby Darrin,and then in the Brill Building,my job was to listen to the radio,and emulate the songs that were out there.I had already been working on mixing The Beatles music with Folk music in Greenwich Village,and I had noticed that they were using Folk influenced Chords in their music.They used passing chords that were not commmon in Rock 'n' Roll and pop songs at that time.I remember listening to them, and thinking that the Beatles were using folding Chord construction.
That comes from their Skiffle roots.They would have learnt those chords during their Skiffle days and brought them into their own writing."
This is an expert eyewitness account of how Folk and Rock 'n' Roll drew creatively upon each other from an earlier than a lot of people recognise. Interesting to note as well that McGuinn is talking about 1963 at a point when most Americans were unaware of The Beatles.
Though Buddy Holly,Little Richard,Chuck Berry & The Everly Brothers were the people who got The Beatles really interested in contemporary popular music it was Lonnie Donegan that got them playing it & (though they disliked him) Cliff's earliest hits were pretty much de rigeur in the dance halls they played in their dues paying days.
As I've said before many little streams have fed the big river that is contemporary Folk.

Subject: RE: British Rock n Roll
From: Blindlemonsteve
Date: 08 Feb 07 - 10:32 AM

Hi everyone..
Peace, i think we have found even more mutual ground, i love Dave Edmunds, i saw him in Kentish Town in 1987, Gary Moore was his guest appearance, they done Johnny B Goode together,,, wow what a night.

There seems to be a lot of bickering about whether or not this thread should be here, but i think its a great discussion.... to me RnR grew up after the 50´s, it stopped being a music type and became something that musicians have in they´re hearts. therefore i think its perfectly possible to play Folk music with a rock n roll heart, it just means your being true to yourself,,,, playing because you love it and you have something to give or something to say, which ever genre you choose, you can still be a rock n roller.
Also i know that there was a handful of British stars with record company manufactured songs, or direct American rip offs,,, i.e Tommy Steele, Terry dene, Marty Wilde,,,, But Move it was in a different class, it was written on a bus in 5 minutes by the late Ian Samwell, it was the first British rock n roll song written by the kids for the kids, delivered by a smouldering young man with an astounding band behind him. as a record, it still stands up today with anything that has been before it or after it, its up there with Heartbreak Hotel and Johnny B Goode. The only reason The Beatles were signed is because E.M.I wanted another Cliff and the Shadows... So i put it again,,, this remarkable piece of British music is 50 years old next year,,, what should we do to celebrate what it started....

Subject: RE: British Rock n Roll
From: Blindlemonsteve
Date: 08 Feb 07 - 10:49 AM

Just a quickie, i forgot to say, i would like to exclude Billy Fury from the list of wannabees that i stated earlier, he was a class act, anyone heard the album "The Sound of Fury"... a self penned album, recorded in an afternoon,,, Joe Brown on lead guitar, and because there was no one in Britain at the time who could play slap bass, they used 2 bass players, one to play notes, the other to slap the notes... Ive heard it said that if the early "Cliff" was Britains answer to Elvis, then "Billy Fury" was definitely our "Eddie Cochran",,,, and please, dont get me started on him, he was an absolute genius....