British Rock n Roll

Subject: RE: British Rock n Roll
From: bubblyrat
Date: 08 Feb 07 - 10:53 AM

Alec,that is all very interesting, in fact fascinating, and thankyou for sharing it with us.! Earlier on, Yes,I did say that I thought anything after 1970 was rubbish, didn"t I !! Perhaps that was a bit over-critical !! But generally,I felt that there was a decline from my PERSONAL point of view. For example, I really liked most of the early Hollies releases, but " He aint Heavy " was dreadful !! Or at least, I thought so !!

Subject: RE: British Rock n Roll
From: GUEST,Terry McDonald
Date: 08 Feb 07 - 11:07 AM

I think Blindlemonsteve is alsolutely right re 'Move it.' When it was released, I assumed it was American and was amazed to find out that it was British. Early British rock was mainly played by session musicians - remember Don Lang and the Frantic Five or Lord Rockingham's Eleven? I bet Tommy Steel's 'Steelmen' weren't self taught kids but do correct me if I'm wrong! Cliff and the Shadows were, I think, the first genuinely home grown rock group.

Subject: RE: British Rock n Roll
From: Scrump
Date: 08 Feb 07 - 11:07 AM

I agree that Billy Fury and Joe Brown were talented. I mentioned the other artists (Terry Dene, Wee Willie Harris, etc.) as evidence that Cliff's "Move It" was not the first R&R record in the UK. But I accept it was better than most of what preceded it here, and a classic track. The likes of Dene and Harris didn't have much success anyway and soon disappeared. Tommy Steele was an exception but he quickly moved away from Rock & roll and became the proverbial "all round entertainer" (lampooned as "Fred Iron" on the Peter Sellers record), moving into musicals and movies.

Sadly Billy Fury died relatively young, but Joe Brown is still doing occasional gigs.

Interestingly, many people assume the guitarist on "Move It" was Hank Marvin, but it was a session guitarist Ernie Shears who played on the record.

Subject: RE: British Rock n Roll
From: fat B****rd
Date: 08 Feb 07 - 11:33 AM

Actually I prefer "Move It" to "Rock With The Cavemen". For those interested in early British Rock'n'roll. Mo Fosters "Play Like Elvis" originally titled "17 Watts" is a fund of information regarding guitarists and session players in general.
Ernie Shears (gtr) Frank Clarke (bass) and Terry Smart (the original Shadows drummer) were the players on Move It which was originally a B side.

Subject: RE: British Rock n Roll
From: Scrump
Date: 08 Feb 07 - 11:41 AM

Yes, the original 'A' side is the dire cover of a Bobby Helms US hit "Schoolboy Crush". Appalling and definitely neither rock nor roll!

Subject: RE: British Rock n Roll
From: Bill D
Date: 08 Feb 07 - 12:48 PM

"We're all folk. It's all music. All music is therefore folk music"

*sigh* Whether meant jokingly or seriously, that sort of convoluted logic is all too common. It pretends to simplify and muddles the issue.

...and ummmm..Alec, "Originally Rock 'n' Roll was a blend of Country music & R 'n' B
both of which were local variants of Folk music.
Ergo Rock 'n' Roll is a logical entailment of the Folk process Q.E.D."

BOTH premises there are somewhere between misleading and totally inaccurate...which renders the conclusion useless. There are both factual and rhetorical problems with it. I hope you were just making a joke? Please tell me, so I can laugh hollowly....


You might as well just say that "all music comes from some earlier music" which is true, but useless if you want to discuss some particular style. There ARE differences.....various of us LIKE different styles, therefore we need ways to refer to them. Finding ways to claim they are all related, just so you don't have to feel obligated to limit your discussions just ain't reasonable.
   Using that logic, you can go to a Bluegrass forum and make a case for discussing Grand Opera.....but you can imagine the reception you'd get.

(I know that Max makes no real attempt to limit the topics here, and I know that MY blather is just "blowing in the wind" and is not likely to change much when people are determined to ignore the obvious history and relevance of Mudcat as a **FOLK* (in the narrower sense) forum. I can't stop it, but I can insert these little remarks every year or so, just for the record...)

so...carry on....don't mind me.








*little beady eyes watching* :^(

Subject: RE: British Rock n Roll
From: Blindlemonsteve
Date: 08 Feb 07 - 01:00 PM

Move it became the A side after George Martin took home an acetate recording to play to his daughter, she loved "Move It" so much that he lobbied the powers that be to make it an A side,,,, he really was a shrewed man.
Anyway, i would like to see a Cliff and Shadows MTV unplugged album, including a re-recording of Move it, but Cliffs gotta get back to the earthy rocky side..stop prancing about..perhaps some new material as well.

Subject: RE: British Rock n Roll
From: Grab
Date: 08 Feb 07 - 01:16 PM

Perhaps that was a bit over-critical !!

Perhaps just a little. ;-)

I don't think there was a decline - there was still the same mixture of good stuff, average stuff and crap stuff as usual, with plenty of adverse influence from record companies/producers manufacturing bands to be "The Next (fill in name)".

I think the difference was just that the style changed, and just as not everyone likes all kinds of folk, not everyone likes all kinds of rock. Me, I don't like thrash metal in general, but I think some of the more intelligent and melodic Metallica stuff is superb. And generally I thought grunge was a manufactured waste of time (just like punk was a manufactured waste of time), although again there was good stuff in there.

And the other big difference was radio. Once radio "standardised" what you heard, I think things died - you never heard anything different, so it never pushed your boundaries. John Peel tried, bless him, but everyone else knuckled under. Radio 1 went rap, Radio 2 only picked up the easy-listening stuff, and commercial radio played what they got paid to play.

That's one thing I like today - once you get away from Chris Moyles and Sara Cox and other wasters, Radio 1 has a lot of rock on it again. Particularly Zane Lowe, who like Peel has few boundaries on what gets played, but unlike Peel seems to vet them before he plays them, so what hits the air is a very diverse but generally high-quality set of music. And as far as I can tell, he's the only DJ on the air today who cares more about the music than about running his mouth, which makes a refreshing change.

Graham.

Subject: RE: British Rock n Roll
From: Blindlemonsteve
Date: 08 Feb 07 - 02:09 PM

Just want to address the people who say why is this thread on a folk site,,,,, i myself am not a keen folk music enthusiast, but i do recognise the beauty of a well crafted piece of music, whatever genre it is to be called, also, what would the point of posting this thread on a R.n.R forum when everyone would just agree with me, i believe that you should always try to get the other persons views, then you can challenge your own thoughts and get a more balanced view....never be scared of the unknown. and this is in the music thread because i think it deserves to be. the music that we are discussing here has been so influential to so many people. who have gone onto all genres of music.

Subject: RE: British Rock n Roll
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Feb 07 - 02:28 PM

There is a very special link between rock music and folk music in Britain.

The key to understanding where both folk music in Bruitrain and RocknRoll cam,e from, and where they were going, was the skiffle explosion, and the mass of skiffle groups that sprung up, and were the seed-bed for both types of music.

Check back on virtually anyone of that generation involved in either music, and you find a skiffle background.

Subject: RE: British Rock n Roll
From: fat B****rd
Date: 08 Feb 07 - 02:41 PM

I agree with M of H. It might be worth mentioning that Alexis Korner was a catalyst in British music from the late 50s to the mid 60s (IMNSHO)

Subject: RE: British Rock n Roll
From: Alec
Date: 08 Feb 07 - 03:04 PM

True enough McGrath of Harlow,arguably 2 of the most important groups in the history of 20th century British music were skiffle bands: The Thameside Four (with whom Martin Carthy made his debut)
and The Quarrymen (who evolved into The Beatles.)
In both cases the influence extended well beyond these shores(See the McGuinn quote I posted earlier for, merely one,example.)
Hello BILL D,as stated in my initial post my conclusion was (partially) tongue in cheek but I stand by my premises.
The close relationship between Folk & Rock 'n' Roll might be more discernible this side of the pond but this side of the pond is signposted in the thread title.
You know what the best of Classical music,Folk,Blues,Jazz & Rock have in common? we're damn lucky to have access to them.
It IS possible to appreciate all of them.
This is not intended as a personal attack, I respect & admire any person who wishes to conserve things which are worth conserving.
I recognise you as such a person.
Keep 'em flying.

Subject: RE: British Rock n Roll
From: Rasener
Date: 08 Feb 07 - 03:42 PM

Ive mentioned this before, but is worth mentioning again on this thread.

Steve & Muff Winwood were friends at the time through the social club we went to and the fact they lived 50 yards up the road and we played football together.

They used to come to the club with washboard and tea chest and sing skiffle music.

At the trad jazz club that my mate ran, Spenecr Davis (who wasn't known to us at that time, asked if he could sing in the interval. He sang Lonnie Donegan songs.

After that they formed Spencer Davis Group.

Steve Winward does John Barleycorn on one of his LP's.

Low and behold in 2007 Tim van Eyken wins the best traditional track with Barleycorn.

What goes around comes around

Subject: RE: British Rock n Roll
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 08 Feb 07 - 04:08 PM

Bill dear chap, I was being IRONIC! :-)
People were arguing (you included I believe) about whether this topic should be 'permitted' on Mudcat because it's not about 'folk', and thereby detracting from what was, and is, a discussion that many of us find rivetting.
I simply object to a few individuals attempting to censor threads, just because they're not interested in the subject-matter. Anyone who doesn't want to partake should simply ignore the thread, not raise objections to its existence. That's all I was trying to say (but obviously failed! LOL!)

Subject: RE: British Rock n Roll
From: Rasener
Date: 08 Feb 07 - 04:23 PM

I want to see you doing Rock n Roll Strollin'

Are you likely to be doing anything in the near future ?

Rock, Skiffle, Trad jazz, Folk - bring it all on.

Music makes the world go round and makes me happy.

Subject: RE: British Rock n Roll
From: John O'L
Date: 08 Feb 07 - 04:30 PM

If you want a link between British rock and folk music, I suggest Billy Bragg, and not because of Mermaid Avenue either.
Because of Waiting For The Great Leap Forward

Revised version

Subject: RE: British Rock n Roll
From: Rasener
Date: 08 Feb 07 - 05:28 PM

I find this a very interesting article

The Quarry Men

Subject: RE: British Rock n Roll
From: Bill D
Date: 08 Feb 07 - 05:42 PM

Ok..*grin*...Ironic...(text does not always convey subtleties )

I've said all I need to ...probably more.

Y'all have fun...

Subject: RE: British Rock n Roll
From: TRUBRIT
Date: 08 Feb 07 - 09:06 PM

we have one of those local 'golden oldies' stations and I remember once calling in to ask for Shaking all over by Johnny Kidd and the Pirates -- the dj had never heard of Johnny Kidd and the Pirates and insisted on playing the US version of Shaking all Over -- I can't even remember the singer............

Subject: RE: British Rock n Roll
From: Scrump
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 04:18 AM

Move it became the A side after George Martin took home an acetate recording to play to his daughter, she loved "Move It" so much that he lobbied the powers that be to make it an A side,,,, he really was a shrewed man.

He was indeed, but I think you'll find it wasn't him but Norrie Paramor whose daughter persuaded him to 'flip' the A & B sides of Cliff's first single.

Subject: RE: British Rock n Roll
From: Scrump
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 04:31 AM

I simply object to a few individuals attempting to censor threads, just because they're not interested in the subject-matter. Anyone who doesn't want to partake should simply ignore the thread, not raise objections to its existence.

I agree - in this case the thread title is clear enough, so there's no reason anyone who isn't interested in the subject to waste their time reading the thread if they don't want to.

As for links between rock 'n' roll and folk: both R&R and skiffle arrived at around the same time in the UK, and they were similar in that they were a kind of music that young people in particular enjoyed, and the main attraction was that, especially with skiffle, it allowed them to make their own music on a limited budget (unlike today's teenagers, those in the 1950s had little disposable income), and some would say, with only rudimentary musical skills required.

Skiffle was the main link with folk, though, because many of the songs were adapted from folk songs. Many youngsters who started in skiffle bands went on to greater things, as the examples above show.

Many folkies were led towards folk music via skiffle, myself included (although I was too young to have been in a 1950s skiffle band, I was aware of the music and later started playing some of it myself).

Even if you don't like certain forms of music, it's often interesting to know a little about the background and the context, as it helps to understand how the 'folk scene' got where it is today.

Subject: RE: British Rock n Roll
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 04:51 AM

It would be a fun album if anybody put it together - the greatest hits of British trad jazz revival

Pasadena, Peter and the Wolf, Midnight in Moscow, You're Driving Me Crazy, (though not strictly jazz) Stranger on the Shore, I'm Shy Mary Ellen I'm Shy, Yes My Darling Daughter, Bad Penny Blues, Petite Fleur, So Do I, March of the Siamese Children, (er....that's it)

Subject: RE: British Rock n Roll
From: Scrump
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 05:14 AM

I wouldn't call "Stranger on the Shore" jazz. Acker Bilk recorded a lot of great trad jazz sides, but that wasn't one of them. He has always (since the late 1950s anyway) followed two distinct musical paths, the trad jazz one and the 'easy listening clarinet' one. Stranger on the Shore was the latter, IMO.

I would suggest That's My Home, Creole Jazz, Corrina Corrina, etc. as alternatives (there are plenty of trad jazz tracks by Acker to choose from - all those made the UK charts).

Subject: RE: British Rock n Roll
From: Alec
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 05:32 AM

And it was Mr Bilk's rendition of "A Taste Of Honey" which inspired The Beatles to record it (though I'm still not entirely convinced that,that was one of their better ideas)
I always feel that "I Saw Her Standing There" owes an indefinable something to "When The Saints Go Marchin' In". Skiffle Roots again or is it just me?
As for contrary views, I think they're useful- they might be accurate in a way that hadn't occured to you or they might help you to think through your own views.
(When I say "you" I mean myself at least as much as anybody else.)

Subject: RE: British Rock n Roll
From: Scrump
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 05:49 AM

Of course Kenny Ball had more chart hits than any other UK trad jazz band, so there are more of his you could include, but I guess you don't want one artist to dominate the proposed album (other hits of his include Samantha, Sukiyaki, Acapulco 1922, I Still Love You All, Casablanca, Rondo, Hello Dolly, etc., etc.)

Strangely enough WLD I did do something like this myself a while ago. I can't remember what tracks I had on the CD, but probably most of what you had above would be there.

IIRC I included some tracks by Bob Wallis (Come Along Please, Chinatown) and Chris Barber's Whistling Rufus.

You could include Chesapeake Bay, which Lonnie Donegan recorded with the Clyde Valley Stompers (a skiffle connection there, slowly getting back towards the thread subject!)

These weren't all chart hits, but were popular with trad jazz fans at the time.

Just realised this doesn't have much to do with R&R - sorry folks :-)

Subject: RE: British Rock n Roll
From: Peace
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 05:54 AM

Music is very 'individual' or personal, and arguments about what is 'good' tend to lead nowhere. From a personal point of view I find "Danny Boy" to be an ugly melody set to mediocre words, but the history of the song is fascinating. (I know lotsa folks will disagree with that, and that's cool by me.) Neat link about the song here. OTOH, I absolutely love "Maggie" and "October Winds". In the jazz area, I like Theolonious Monk's work but don't really care for Miles Davis' stuff. Mahler attracts me and Dvorak is boring. I find Bob Dylan's lyrics (and most melodies) to be awesome, but not so the majority of Woody Guthrie's work. I think Robert Johnson is highly over-rated as a singer/writer and I will never understand the reverence he's given by blues people, but then Muddy Waters 'speaks' to me and so does Mississippi John Hurt. I would never argue this with people because folks have different tastes in music. I would also never argue the relative merit of Rap Music--neither pro nor con--despite the fact it is irritating and bothersome as an art form (IMO). I don't think I'll hear a prettier song (ballad) than "Patches" or Johnny Horton's "All For the Love of a Girl", but then not all people would agree, and that's cool too.

Rock and Roll has had and continues to have its moments. I find "Stairway to Heaven" to be a piece of junk as a song, but then I think that of "Horse With No Name" and that 'We will, we will rock you' thing. However, put on youtube cut of JF doing UATB and you got my attention. It has one of the greatest hooks r and r ever had--ranks up there with CB's ROB--and if you don't know whose initials they are or which song it is then you are beyond ALL help from the r and r gods. Folks, ya like what ya like. I don't think any music of the last 300 years developed in isolation without influences from other music. (I'm likely wrong about that and I'd sure expect to find out shortly, lol.) However, it says something about the human condition and character that there does NOT exist one single group of people anywhere in the world who do not like music. And that speaks volumes.

One more youtube: The audience loves it.

Subject: RE: British Rock n Roll
From: Peace
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 06:09 AM

Youtube: you'll know it when you hear it. Beautiful song, beautiful arrangement, beautiful words, beautiful sentiment--in fact, simply beautiful. If all hymns were like that I'd go to church. Night, all.

Subject: RE: British Rock n Roll
From: Peace
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 06:20 AM

Youtube: It's a gas no matter what ya call it.

Subject: RE: British Rock n Roll
From: Peace
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 06:37 AM

(ALL are Youtube video links)

Sometimes it don't matter whether you understand the language.

The thought

crosses over

all borders.

Subject: RE: British Rock n Roll
From: Peace
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 06:38 AM

Now, for the last time, GOOD NIGHT. Sleep well, all.

Subject: RE: British Rock n Roll
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 06:47 AM

Sleep well? where are you?

Subject: RE: British Rock n Roll
From: Alec
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 07:03 AM

Sleep well Peace. I would hazard that the point at which music ceased to develop in isolation without influences from other music was probably within 5 minutes of its birth.
Music of the fields,music of the palaces,music of the marketplaces.
They have all drawn creatively on each other for millennia.
They still do.
Long may this continue.

Subject: RE: British Rock n Roll
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 09:15 AM

Gene Vincent (with the limp)
Wee Willie Harris (of the green hair)

RtS
(Bee bop a lula)

Subject: RE: British Rock n Roll
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 09:31 AM

Didn't acker do a knockout version of Que Sera Sera?

I remember delia gone as well, but I've no idea if they were records.

Subject: RE: British Rock n Roll
From: Rasener
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 09:53 AM

One of my favourite jazz bands was Terry Lightfoot.

Hows about "Ice Cream"

Subject: RE: British Rock n Roll
From: Blindlemonsteve
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 10:57 AM

Scrump, you are absolutely right, it was Norrie Paramor.....I do apologise.
Its still one heck of a record though......
Nice words peace, right behind you on most of it...
Anybody seen Brian Setzer play. that guy is a fantastic all rounder, if you havent, i suggest you have a look, i will try to find a you tube link a little later.
Cheers for now

Subject: RE: British Rock n Roll
From: Scrump
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 11:33 AM

WLD, Acker certainly recorded Buona Sera, but I'm not sure I ever heard him do Que Sera Sera. Yes, he did also record Delia Gone.

And he's still going at well over 70 (so is Kenny Ball - I saw them both with their bands a couple of years ago and they were still bloody good!)

Subject: RE: British Rock n Roll
From: Leadbelly
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 12:00 PM

Well, an intesting discussion about british Rock n Roll. But typical from men's point of view because: are'nt there any girls rocking around in those days e.g. like Lulu and others??????? Please help me to remember...

Manfred from Germay

Subject: RE: British Rock n Roll
From: Alec
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 12:11 PM

Lulu came slightly later Leadbelly (National success from 1964 onwards.) Nancy Whiskey played an important role in Skiffle,but I suppose the first succesful British female singer in a Rock 'n' Roll related idiom may have been Dusty Springfield who sang on "Seven Little Girls" by The Avons (1959) prior to becoming a major artist in her own right.

Subject: RE: British Rock n Roll
From: Leadbelly
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 12:39 PM

Alec, another example: Helen Shapiro started a litle bit earlier than Lulu in 1961. But would you say that at least in the beginnig she was performing R&R? I'm not quite sure about this.

Indeed, it seems so that R&R primarily was a man's world in those days.
Apart from Wanda Jackson and others living in the US.
Manfred

Subject: RE: British Rock n Roll
From: Alec
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 12:55 PM

I would also be uncertain as to whether Helen qualified Leadbelly.
She is still touring as a well-respected Jazz performer but her early singles were maybe more pop than Rock 'n' Roll.
One important woman from this period is Astrid Kircher who, though not a performer, befriended The Beatles in their Hamburg days & had an enormous influence on their visual style as well as introducing them to some music which they had not previously encountered.

Subject: RE: British Rock n Roll
From: Leadbelly
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 01:41 PM

Yeah, that's true, Alec. Astrid was Sutcliffe's girlfriend in 1961 and created the typical hair cut of the Beatles resp. Beat Brothers. A have had the pleasure to listen to the Beatles performing in the Star Club and Top Ten in Hamburg.

But coming back to early british R&R ladies. Is there any reason behind the fact that british girls did not take part in early R&R?

By the way: At least in the beginnig and together with her brother (The Springfields) Dusty wasn't a "rocking" lady, or am I wrong? And later on, she did perform wonderful and unforgettable songs but I cannot remember a real rocking title performed by a typical rock formation.
Although she has had the voice to do so.
If I'm mistaken I beg of pardon. I'm living in Germany.

Manfred

Subject: RE: British Rock n Roll
From: Alec
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 02:05 PM

Hi again Leadbelly, I think that the reason there were so few women in the early days of British R & R is simply because this was not considered a "respectable" form of music.Britain in the 'Fifties/early Sixties was decidedly more puritanical than it is now & if a young woman acquired a bad reputation this could have a detrimental effect on both her career & her marriage prospects.
I think this may have been the reason why young women chose not to get involved until everybody "lightened up" a bit.
As for Dusty,I hear R&R in such songs as "Wishin' & Hopin' &"Little by Little" Though this may be subjective.

Subject: RE: British Rock n Roll
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 02:27 PM

I would have thought Dusty Springfield's marriage prospects would have been the least of her worries ...

Subject: RE: British Rock n Roll
From: fat B****rd
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 03:15 PM

Cherry Wainer. She played organ on Jack Good's Saturday teatime progs.
With of course Lord Rockingham's Xl.
I believe she sang as well. Try Youtube.
There are some real gems of British TV Pop/R'n'R.
Also if you can get hold of Chas McDevitt's Skiffle book, it lists loads of British rockers who started in Skiffle
Roger The S. Am I right or am I right ??

Subject: RE: British Rock n Roll
From: Blindlemonsteve
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 04:51 PM

Heres a Brian Setzer Link, have look, he is so cool. a bit of an unpolished diamond.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgUCs72RDHs

Some feedback on this would be good, because i have a great idea for another thread.

Subject: RE: British Rock n Roll
From: Leadbelly
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 05:48 PM

Thanks Alec, sounds to be a logigal explanation.

Manfred

Subject: RE: British Rock n Roll
From: Peace
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 06:25 PM

'nother Brian Setzer cut because that link above seems not to work too well.

Subject: RE: British Rock n Roll
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 07:14 PM

So far as skiffle was concerned, I don't think it was a matter of whether or nitr it was respectable. (Actually it was, as often as not.) I'd say it was more a question of motivation. And that wasn't basically about fame and fortune, it was primarily a way of showing off, and girls had other ways of doing that, which didn't involve learning three chords on a guitar.

There were girls in skiffle but relatively few. (Notably "Nancy Whiskey" - born Anne Wilson - with Chas McDevitt) And if there were any all girl skiffle groups I never heard of them.

Subject: RE: British Rock n Roll
From: Leadbelly
Date: 10 Feb 07 - 04:14 AM

McGrath, I know about a girls group called Liverbirds playing in Hamburg's Star Club around 1962/1963 I believe. They tried to play R&R but I'm not sure whether they are known at all in the UK.

Manfred