BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 08:02 AM

... The winds of Black Death....

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 08:06 AM

No one is disputing chemical warfare is a possibility, it's the shite he posted about 'muslim areas being shot up' that takes all credibility from his posting.

Some people are so shallow they will use any tragedy to further their own twisted meanderings.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 08:28 AM

"Some people are so shallow they will use any tragedy to further their own twisted meanderings."

You can read that as being applicable to Bush & Blair too, you know

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,8.06
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 08:36 AM

Yes I do know. The blame is at their door.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 08:54 AM

[e-mail]

Anyone who thinks they have an opinion worth listening to could email Ken at the above address. I have just sent him my thanks and support. But he will be just as open to listen to constructive criticism.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 09:08 AM

That's a cracker email address

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,8.06
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 09:38 AM

Yes it is. Apparently he is witholding making any further decisions until he has ok'd them with lepus, ake and diananvan.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Big Mick
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 10:04 AM

I have great respect for the process of honest debate of issues. Such discourse, when carried out as an honest quest between honorable folks, usually yields understanding and progress.

Then there are those that always have something to say based on some narrowly defined ulterior motive. They quack to hear themselves sound like ducks.

This killing was a tragic episode. But if one puts themselves in the position of having to make a split second decision ....... never mind. If you haven't been in this situation you have no way to understand. Perhaps it takes one of your kin dying at the hands of a bomber to understand.

While I still believe that Iraq was a mistake and an ongoing travesty, I will not judge those that are trying to save innocent lives.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: greg stephens
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 10:11 AM

While some people just love stirring up trouble, and escalating things, let's be calm. I for one fully understand how a tragic error like this can happen, and have nothing but sympathy for those involved: the family of this young chap, and equally well the policeman who fired these shots, I am sure with the best of intentions of saving his fellow citizens from a potential disaster.
   It is a tragedy, and can only be blamed on the climate of fear set up by these dreadful bombings. Which were the responsibilty if those who pressed the buttones.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,8.06
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 10:26 AM

Well said Mick. Still waiting for ake and dianavan to show where they got their 'facts' from. Or are they too busy stirring the pot to post.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 10:51 AM

Dianavan commented:

I hope nobody uses this incident to blame him for being an illegal immigrant but I'm sure they will.

That's a very muddy statement, Dianavan.

This incident is not necessary, nor even applicable, to blame him for being an illegal immigrant. That status creates its own blame. His being killed doesn't create or increase blame for his status.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: The Curator
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 11:30 AM

Well still of the belief this poor guy from Brazil had any involvement ? Police must have been trainned in the North of Ireland.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: artbrooks
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 11:32 AM

Swarthy? Brown? Some Brazilians are, but he seems to be pretty light complected to me. CNN Story

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 11:33 AM

I can in fact understand how he could have been shot, once he had been identified as being a bomber trying to detonate a bomb. What puzzles me us how a surveillance operation could have allowed someone identified as a potential bomber into an underground station.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 11:42 AM

Ain't that the truth, Kevin

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,8.06
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 11:51 AM

The police have acknowledged it was a mistake. Is that not clear enough for you? Are you upset that they aren't trying to cover this up? Instead they are trying to learn from it. I realise that doesn't fit into some peoples mindsets, but get used to changing times and changing attitudes. We didn't ask for these changes, we are learning to live with them.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Billy Suggers
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 12:13 PM

Ummm 'scuse me but:

1. None of you know the facts (neither do I)

2. The Apologists for the police just strengthen the case of TBERI* - coz they'll say that this just shows how fascist we are

3. The Apologists for The Bloody Extremist R****d Idiots just strengthen their case as they'll use any support they can find.

depressing, that, isn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: The Curator
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 12:38 PM

You didn't ask for these changes ? Those who elected Tony Blair into office AGAIN and ignored the thousands that took to the streets over his involvement in the Iraq war cannot say they did not believe there wouldn't be a pay day for it. The thousands of Iraqis killed in their home didn't ask for it either. Sadly you will have to learn to live with it. I condem the killings on BOTH sides.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 12:48 PM

Alot of us condemn the killings on both sides. The UK police force has acted murderously underhand in the past, does it disturb you that they don't seem to be doing so now?

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 12:56 PM

The murder is done, 12.48

How transparent the inquiry is, will determine it's degree of underhandedness

How transparent have they been in the past?
Because, 12.48, that is all we have to go on

Our leaders talk of a better future.

When is this better future supposed to begin?

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,Ron Davies
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 01:01 PM

Conspiracy theorists of all shades: get it straight---nobody, with the exception of that yahoo earlier who made the remark about improving the gene pool, is celebrating the death of an innocent man.

It seems (CNN-AP) that he was a 27-year old Brazilian electrician, who spoke good Englsih and had been working legally in the UK for 23 years, and was Catholic, not Moslem. It is a true tragedy that he was killed.

But who ordered the police to behave as they did? My understanding is that Ken Livingstone ("Red Ken"?) had been told that since suicide bombers can detonate their explosives as long as they are conscious at all, they had to be made unconscious immediately---therefore he issued the shoot-to-kill instruction. Would a stun-gun be able to do this? I don't know--does anybody? Maybe if stun-guns work that way, that approach could be tried.

Maybe once they have the suspect on the ground, they could try shooting the arms, not the head--that should make it impossible to detonate a bomb. Would that work?


Ken Livingstone's main goal is to protect all the people of London. It seems to me that, given the events of the past weeks, his instructions to the police made sense at the time.

Obviously there needed to be an apology, and an investigation.

The victim may have feared he was being robbed--since the police were plain-clothesmen. But he was surrounded by other riders of the London Metro. It's of course impossible to know his mental state. But what exactly did the police say--didn't they yell at him to stop? What kind of robbers do that?

If they didn't yell at him to stop, for fear that yelling would cause him to detonate his feared bomb, that introduces yet another complicating factor.

Did he or didn't he come out of a house the police had under surveillance? Was he wearing a thick coat in the middle of summer? Were there wires under his coat or not?

It seems there were all sorts of clues, false in retrospect, but convincing at the time, that he was in fact a suicide bomber.

Maybe both the American and British police need an immediate seminar given by the Israeli police, who have been dealing with suicide bombers for quite a while.

I read on Friday an article which predicted the "Israelification" of the world. Is this the direction we are headed?

By the way, anybody who can't tell the difference between a real police state, like Hitler's Germany, and current Israel, needs to do some reading in history.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 01:11 PM

When is this better future supposed to begin?

When we start letting go of the past and uniting together to achieve it. I don't think they dare try a cover up. I also don't think they even wish they could. CCTV and witnesses will bring the truth to light.

Curator an innocent man was shot dead and within 24 hours the police accepted their mistake and apologised. That shows more guts than the IRA ever did. Where were your apologies for the children your beloved organisation blew sky high.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 01:19 PM

The IRA always acknowledged their mistakes, and issued very public statements at the times

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 01:24 PM

That must have been very comforting.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 01:27 PM

Planting a bomb in a shopping centre the day before Mothers Day surely ranks slightly higher than a mistake, who exactly were they hoping it would kill? Don't even try and equate the two, unless an eleven year old boy is a legitimate target.

Get over your hatred of all things British and try and move on.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 01:28 PM

Ron Davies, the British police had already been trained in Israel. That's one of the places where they learned about having to completely disable a potential suicide bomber.

Reuters

"'I sent teams to Israel and other countries hit by suicide bombers where we learned a terrible truth,' he wrote in the News of the World.

'There is only one sure way to stop a suicide bomber determined to fulfil his mission -- destroy his brain instantly, utterly. That means shooting him with devastating power in the head, killing him immediately.'"

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 01:36 PM

Guest... you were the one who brought the subject up.

I.R.A. volunteers swore oaths that they would sacrifice their lives for their cause; precisely like these Al Quaida blokes do.

If there is honour at all in warfare, then the IRA win hands down.

They could have gone the road of the suicide bomber.

They didn't.

Get over your hatred of all things Irish and try and move on

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 01:41 PM

"There is only one sure way to stop a suicide bomber determined to fulfil his mission - destroy his brain instantly, utterly. That means shooting him with devastating power in the head, killing him immediately."

I'd have thought that it'd be the easiest thing in the world for a bombmaker to rig up something equivalent to the "dead man's handle" or "dead man's switch" that train drivers have. The difference being, when the grip was relaxed, instead of the brakes being applied, the bomb would be exploded.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 01:51 PM

Tir I am Irish and lived in Uk through your bombing campaigns. I got no pride from you murdering children. Had the IRA blown themselves up in the process they would have afforded more respect. The days of the NORAID tins rattling are long gone.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 02:04 PM

Had the IRA blown themselves up in the process they would have afforded more respect.

Even though you disagree (as I'm sure you do) with the present spate of bombings, going by your logic, you actually respect the guys that blew up London a couple of weeks back; killing more people in one go than the IRA ever did?

I find that quite bizarre

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 02:20 PM

Oh, and the BBC is reporting that the victim did apparently live an a violent São Paulo slum. Like I said, had I spent a good part of my life there, I'd run if chased by armed thugs, too. He survives that shithole, only to die like this. Nice.

And artbrooks, I'd still say he'd be considered "swarthy" or "dark," at least by pasty-ass English standards. Why are so many people so reluctant to believe that these pigs murdered a man because he looked "foreign?" Do you guys actually think that if instead of a dusky, unibrow'd Brazilian electrician, he'd been a blonde, blue eyed, Icelandic electrician, that it wouldn't have been different? Fucking please.

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,Shakey
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 02:20 PM

It was right to talk to the IRA, there was a point to negotiate even if you didn't believe in a united Ireland, which I do.

But
If there is honour at all in warfare, then the IRA win hands down.

gets my award for the most ridiculous statement I've seen on this forum,   the IRA and the IVF and all of them are scum, with not an ounce of honour between them.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 02:27 PM

Yes, Shakey, well the relationship was attempted to be made between the 2 organisations, and looking at the specific targeting of both organisations, the IRA could have done more than they actually did.

If the 'Coalition' and Security Forces are given the the benefit of mistakes, why not the IRA?

Al Q don't make any mistakes, apparently.

They hardly even own up to the ones they consider 'successful'

.... Who are the IVF, BTW?

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 02:35 PM

Tir the respect afforded would have come from the fact that they would have removed themselves from this planet, as you well know. No bomber, regardless of colour or creed or ethnicity, deserves respect for their actions on innocent civilians. And no sane person would try and justify their actions.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 02:38 PM

Will someone put the stone back on top of lepus.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 02:45 PM

So, GUEST @ 02:35 PM, do the stormtroopers who spilled innocent civilian Mr.Menezes' brains on the train deserve "respect for their actions?" Or should they be "removed...from this planet?" I mean, you're not the same guy who keeps trying to "justify their actions," right?

And what stone did I have on me? Living underground is for fucking rabbits,, dude.

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 02:46 PM

The IRA spoke for us when you wouldn't listen, guest.

Now you listen.

I have never advocated the targeting of innocent civilians.
The IRA never did, either.

And they did apologise profusely at every turn.

You seem to remember a lot.
How come you don't remember that?

I'm sure you would be of the opinion that unfortunately innocent civilians are a result of war.

Well, unfortuntely innocent civilians were a product of our war with England.

EVERY innocent life taken is a tragedy.

But that's War for you...

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 02:51 PM

Yes I agree innocent civilians are the result of war. I don't think you'll find many to disagree. But save the 'mistakes' patter for those who gave you their loose change.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: dianavan
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 02:59 PM

greg and others -

I tried in vein to find the article which stated that the man did not speak English. No luck. I can assure you I did not make it up. Its obviously a matter of conflicting news reports. I see now that his family said he did speak English. I stand corrected and will be more careful next time. My apologies.

I do not blame the victim or the police. What I do question is the shoot to kill policy. I wonder if the public was informed of this policy before it was put into practice and who was involved in forming this policy?

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Big Mick
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 03:08 PM

Lepus, old friend, how would you expect them to act? Less than two weeks ago someone murdered about 60 of their citizens, and injured many more. This was a tragic mistake with horrid consequences. I am asking, not to be a smartass but because I want to know. Did you post anything bemoaning these murders?

Anyone who has been around this place for a bit knows my feelings about the British Security Services and their activities in the North of Ireland. But, for the life of me, I cannot understand those that condemn the cause of this grievous error.

BTW, GUEST 2:38, why don't you go back under your rock.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 03:15 PM

"But save the 'mistakes' patter for those who gave you their loose change.

I hope you're emailing the Commissioner of the Met as we speak telling him, that his apology doesn't wear, in that case.

What makes you think I'm poor?

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 03:20 PM

If they had just killed an eleven year old boy I would be. Like I said don't try and equate the two.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 03:25 PM

What's the difference between an 11 year old innocent civilian, and a 27 year old one?

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 03:34 PM

One unfortunately vaulted a ticket barrier and ran into the tube network, followed by armed plain clothes police, who may or may not have asked him to stop, the investigation will tell us that, and boarded a train on the network where two weeks earlier fifty people had been blown up.

The other was a schoolboy out shopping for a mother's day card.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 03:58 PM

I'd expect them to act, Mick, like human beings. Use those gigantic human brains of their to think of an alternative to murder, especially after a suspect has been subdued. That's what makes us better than the vervets, Mick. These guys weren't fresh-faced rookies. They don't just hand out automatic pistols to any old cop over there... These guys were trained professionals, and they used their training to murder an innocent man. And I doubt they'll even be reprimanded.

And no, I didn't post anything about the bombings because, unlike the murder of the electrician, the bombings were the work of criminals, not law enforcement personnel. And while the bombings were condemned by pretty much everyone here, while the murder of Jean Charles de Menezes was hailed by a number of closet racists as some sort of victory against terrorism. Even after the facts have become clear, there have been statements (see post directly above this post, for starters) that he was, basically, asking for it. This is the mentality that leads to things like lynching, and I'm, like, against that, yanno?

Also, I wasn't "here" to comment on the bombings. But, to be honest, I prob'ly wouldn't have commented, anyways. A few dozen people blown up in London, while horrible, wasn't really as notable to me as the much more serious bombings in Iraq, the famine in Niger, the school massacre in Kenya, etc. The value of an English or American life shouldn't be more than that of any other life.

--Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 04:03 PM

The stone's still waiting for you stupid.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 04:03 PM

To quote you:

Yes I agree innocent civilians are the result of war.

No one has the right to compare another's death over that of another.
You fall into your own trap, when you do that.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 04:05 PM

War has suposed legitimate targets.

I told you why the brazilian guy was deemed as such in the eyes of the police, now you tell me why the eleven year old boy was deemed as one. Like I asked, who were the IRA targetting in Warrington shopping centre.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 04:06 PM

... and you demean the innocence

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 04:09 PM

You'd better ask the Police, guest.

They have been lax in the past, passing on warnings to the public.

Which opens up a really huge can of worms, doesnt it?