BS: Killed for being black? Florida today

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Mar 12 - 11:16 AM

There will also be a lot of states taking a look at their own laws on this.

They sure will, Spaw - for about a minute or a minute & a half ..... then they'll look the other way right quick. And nothing will change.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 23 Mar 12 - 11:16 AM

Obama makes first comments on Trayvon Martin shooting (NY Times, with video clip from MSNBC)

He was very careful not to imply any pre-judgement of the case, but expressed his sense that it was a tragedy that required full investigation.

"I think every parent in America should be able to understand why it is absolutely imperative that we investigate every aspect of this," Mr. Obama said. "All of us have to do some soul searching to figure out how does something like this happen."
...
"Obviously, this is a tragedy. I can only imagine what these parents are going through," Mr. Obama said, his face grim. "When I think about this boy, I think about my own kids."
...
"You know, if I had a son, he'd look like Trayvon," Mr. Obama said, pausing for a moment. "I think they are right to expect that all of us as Americans are going to take this with the seriousness it deserves and we are going to get to the bottom of exactly what happened."

~ Becky in Tucson

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: catspaw49
Date: 23 Mar 12 - 11:34 AM

There is enough evidence that he broke this piss poor law as it is written to arrest him. One of these agencies needs to step up to the plate NOW! Zimmerman may be innocent but he has more than enough evidence against him NOW to be arrested.

Let's make Zimmerman black and Martin white.......any questions? This is 2012........Very sad............


Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 23 Mar 12 - 11:42 AM

PBS News Hour had a brief overview of the case followed by an interesting panel discussion: "Ta-Nehisi Coates, a senior editor for The Atlantic, Reihan Salam, a columnist for The Daily, a newspaper for the iPad, and lead writer of The Agenda blog at National Review Online. Donna Britt is the author of the book "Brothers & Me," which is in part about the shooting death of her brother by police in Gary, Ind. She's a former syndicated columnist for The Washington Post. And Florida state Rep. Dennis Baxley is a Republican legislator who co-authored that state's so-called Stand Your Ground law."

Trayvon Martin Case Sparks New Protests, Debate Over Race, Guns, Law

~ Becky in Tucson

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 23 Mar 12 - 12:57 PM

Wanting to understand what happened doesn't make me a contrarian. As I said, the police screwed up the investigation.

Anyway, there's no darker motive in offering an innocent explanation for M. to have been there (taking a wrong turn that would only lead him back to the gate) or, and this was my point, for Z., the watchman, to suspect otherwise.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: pdq
Date: 23 Mar 12 - 01:22 PM

According to FBI statistics, the US suffers through over 17,000 murders every year.

That is about 46.6 murders every day.

This shooting (not yet classified as murder, BTW) took place 28 days ago.

Since then, there have (probably) been about 1300 cases of murder in this country.

Will someone please explain why this shooting merits so much coverage and the others get none?

Is this life more precious than any of the others lost?

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 23 Mar 12 - 02:05 PM

""Richard, I have searched several sites and found no convictions against George Zimmerman. Could you please give links to actual convictions.

Being questioned by police over a matter is not a conviction.""

He was not merely questioned, he was charged, a significantly different thing.

The charges were later dropped for reasons unknown (one might draw conclusions about that from the current behaviour of the authorities).

And what happened to the requirement for consistent GUEST identities in BS.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Mar 12 - 02:22 PM

"Will someone please explain why this shooting merits so much coverage and the others get none?"
This case involves the behaviour of the police and the crassness of a law which allows the execution (that is what it appears to be) of somebody on the grounds of suspicion alone as much as it does the actual ocurrence.
Perhaps it should also involve a discussion on the insanity of US gun laws too!!!
JIm Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Donuel
Date: 23 Mar 12 - 02:22 PM

The Republican talkng points of Trayvon asking for it by dressing so provocatively is disgusting. Of course that trash is still used against women who are raped.

Johnny Cash "don't bring your gun to town son, don't bring your gun to town" This was sung out loud by Geraldo Rivera on Fox and friends and then said that Mr. Martin should not have been allowed to wear such intimidating clothes. I thought he had sung the song about Zimmermann but I was wrong.

Clothes have nothing to do with a racist gunning and stalking a black kid near his gated community.

It seems the Martin family moved from their Virginia home that was starting to have ore blacks in the community. The killer may have had a protectionist motive in the slaying of Trayvon to preserve his racist agenda for his new neighborhood.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Mar 12 - 02:36 PM

The Florida law is so fucked up that a guy saw another guy breaking into his pickup truck, raced out of the house with a big knife, chased the guy 2 blocks before catching him and knifed the guy to death???

Where was all this self-defense in that???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 23 Mar 12 - 02:37 PM

This case seems to have it all. It is a fine exemplar.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: catspaw49
Date: 23 Mar 12 - 02:43 PM

So far it has everything but justice..............

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 23 Mar 12 - 02:59 PM

True

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 23 Mar 12 - 03:00 PM

Lighter, somehow you missed that Martin was walking back from a convenience store to where he was visiting in the gated community with his father and his father's fiance. No need to come up with a different "innocent explanation" for his walking in the neighborhood or say "we'll never know" why he was there.

pdq, of course there are many more murders in this world than this one. Certainly there are many more unjust acts. Your logic doesn't follow, however. (Bill D could probably cite the particular fallacy of your argument.) It's impossible to see them all. Do you think that this case is any less than those others? [As others have said while I was composing this,] This case has a particular combination of factors involved that excite people's interest and involvement.

For me, having a son of the same age as Trayvon Martin, it is the impact of putting myself in the place of his parents, considering what his death in such circumstances would mean to me, and contemplating our luck to be born white in this country, instead of black.

You say: "This shooting (not yet classified as murder, BTW) took place 28 days ago." Yeah. And initially NOTHING was going to happen. No further investigation. It took three days for the parents to find that their son was in the morgue, despite him having a cell phone with "Dad" among the contacts. That's just a start.

I think that this is a case that for many African Americans has added just enough heat to an existing fire to cause the pot to boil over. So many have cited personal experience of either being suspected of or charged with criminal intent without any reason other than their race, or even lost friends or relatives in comparable situations.

People have some hope that if some justice can be done here, or at least light shown on the issue, it might reduce the chances of something similar from happening in the future. Faint hope, perhaps. But worth it.

[Since I always seem to post a link, I'll link the Wikipedia page for the case, which seems to have a pretty carefully referenced rundown of the facts: Shooting of Trayvon Martin.]

~ Becky in Long Beach

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 23 Mar 12 - 03:11 PM

(Sorry, I should also note that the Wikipedia article collects the sometimes conflicting information that's out there: Trayvon may have been listed as a "John Doe" and in the morgue for 3 days, but his father found out he was there the day after he was killed when he called 911 and filed a missing persons report.)

~ Becky in Long Beach

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 23 Mar 12 - 04:22 PM

> It has everything

More specifically:

White killer, black victim.

Adult killer, teen victim.

Gun-toting killer, unarmed victim.

High-school football star gunned down on innocent errand.

Fatal shot fired by someone who couldn't handle the responsibility of owning a gun.

Controversial new law.

Which is supported by NRA, not law enforcement.

Florida, home of Jeb Bush, who signed the law.

Dubious claim of "self-defense."

Mysterious motive.

Shooter not arrested.

Killer keeps gun.

Shooter's whereabouts undisclosed.

Will shooter's lawyer make a statement with exciting allegations?

Bungling or racist cops.

Police chief steps aside, but just "temporarily."

First black President has to comment.

Enormous public interest becaue of all the above and maybe more.

Mediawise, it's a "perfect crime."

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Mar 12 - 04:23 PM

Jeri - You may look smarter if you understood what I was saying but maybe it is me not putting it across well enough. I thought 'Why does it need to be a federal crime?' was plain enough for most but I was obviously wrong so I'll try again.

Why does it need to be a federal crime for it to brought to court. In the UK a crime is a crime is a crime. Why does it need to be a federal crime for this man to be brought to court? I really want to know. Beimg a stupid Brit and all that...

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Mar 12 - 04:57 PM

Ya know, Becky... It doesn't matter if the kid was supposed to be in that gated community or not... That is not relevant... We don't have the death penalty for trespassing...

This kid was, in essence, arrested, tried, convicted and sentenced to death in a matter of minutes by a man with a criminal history of violence... This same man then became the executioner...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 23 Mar 12 - 05:19 PM

Having had time to mull over Janie's conclusion that Zimmerman was but "a little quirky" and as it echoed BillD's equivalent statement early on in this thread (Zimmerman was but "a little odd"), I realise that it's important -if indeed not essential- to contextualise such notions in terms of ones culturally determined understandings of 'normal' human behaviour.

On consideration, and based on the context of our different cultures (with all the unspoken -and often unconscious- assumptions that belonging to differing cultures necessarily implies), I suspect that my subjective understanding of "a little odd" or "a little quirky" will, and do, differ substantially from that of Janie's and Bill D's.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Jeri
Date: 23 Mar 12 - 06:01 PM

It may not. He was odd and quirky right up until he killed the kid. It's the action that was out of bounds, it was his behavior, not his personality.

That "stand your ground" law is terrible. I'm pretty sure that every police shooting requires an investigation, but this one might very well have just slipped through the cracks if it hadn't made the news.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 23 Mar 12 - 06:14 PM

up until he killed the kid.

By such means we might say: "he was a such a super guy ..until the day he (insert monstrosity here)
Such is not all that uncommon with mass murderers or rampant peadophiles.

"It's the action that was out of bounds, it was his behavior, not his personality."

You'll have to explain to me how you differentiate the two.

And as this is a music site: He was a sweet and tender Hooligan: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECSjeTAA2Uw

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 23 Mar 12 - 06:15 PM

Oh, yeah, Bobert, I was responding to Lighter's apparently missing that particular fact, but ultimately, you're absolutely right the fact that Zimmerman was carrying a gun meant that the encounter resulted in his being judge, jury, and executioner.

And then, the law and the police interpretation of it meant that nothing was going to happen after that until Trayvon's parents started questioning the situation.

~ Becky in Long Beach

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 23 Mar 12 - 07:04 PM

I did miss that point. Thanks for the clarification.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Mar 12 - 07:37 PM

Now we learn that Zimmerman said to the police dispatcher that the kid was a "fucking coon" during that initial call to the police...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: catspaw49
Date: 23 Mar 12 - 07:58 PM

Are you still on the meds Bobertz? I mean like most of us learned that yesterday.............

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 23 Mar 12 - 09:49 PM

For the UK contingent: crimes are usually dealt with in different levels according to severity. What might get a traffic court or a justice of the peace trial is something like a neighborhood dispute or traffic citation. Crimes like theft, assault, drug posession (up to a point), property crimes with what we've been hearing recently in Texas where repairmen take advantage of the elderly in home repair or roofing schemes (take the money, don't do the work) or scammers are trying to live rent free in luxury homes that are in foreclosure, those kinds of things are dealt with in the city, the county, or the state. Misbehavior by businesses (poor maintenance causing injuries, not keeping food cold enough and causing food poisoning). These are only a very few examples.

Federal crimes cover things where there are overarching laws passed by the House of Representatives and the Senate, in which the Federal Bureau of Investigation may be involved in investigation. Kidnapping, some murders, crimes that cross state lines (fleeing or transporting materials, victims, etc.) and civil rights crimes. Bank fraud, a lot of white collar crime.

The hate crime laws are newer, but they are important for allowing investigations in communities where they occur and the natives aren't too keen on prosecuting their own for something they may not completely disagree with, or where the local prosecutors will be run out of town on a rail if they try to do it. An early crime that was prosecuted under the hate crime legislation had to do with the dragging death of a black man in east Texas named James Bird. Three white men tied and chained him and they drove down the road in a pickup dragging and battering him on the pavement. I think he lost limbs and his head before they stopped. Three guys were given the death sentence for that, and they were tried under federal jurisdiction.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Janie
Date: 23 Mar 12 - 10:28 PM

Hi CS.

I hope you don't mind if I use your response to my post to illustrate something that is a common occurrence in human communication.

What I posted was as follows:




CS, I think you will not mind if I use your responses to my post to illustrate some common things that happen in human brains and human communication and that make life complicated. I think that because your posts are thoughtful.

This is the full sentence I posted: Zimmerman, from what little has actually been written about him - and very little of that little bit has been based on impressions of people who know him well - might be a bit quirky, but quite possibly no more quirky than many of us, and certainly no more quirky than many friends, relatives and acquaintances Most of us probably have, and some of whom we love.

you posted two responses.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: GUEST,CS - PM
Date: 23 Mar 12 - 10:06 AM

"Zimmerman, from what little has actually been written about him - and very little of that little bit has been based on impressions of people who know him well - might be a bit quirky, but quite possibly no more quirky than many of us,"

I disagree with this Janie. Personally I suspect this person was in fact more than "a little quirky" in the same way that I see any person acting in an extreme fashion (I believe unprovoked killing of a stranger - in a culture which does not explicitly condone such actions - to be an extreme action) to be more than "a little quirky".

and Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: GUEST,CS - PM
Date: 23 Mar 12 - 05:19 PM

Having had time to mull over Janie's conclusion that Zimmerman was but "a little quirky" and as it echoed BillD's equivalent statement early on in this thread (Zimmerman was but "a little odd"), I realise that it's important -if indeed not essential- to contextualise such notions in terms of ones culturally determined understandings of 'normal' human behaviour.

On consideration, and based on the context of our different cultures (with all the unspoken -and often unconscious- assumptions that belonging to differing cultures necessarily implies), I suspect that my subjective understanding of "a little odd" or "a little quirky" will, and do, differ substantially from that of Janie's and Bill D's.

I did my best, when choosing the words I used in my post, to convey that I do not think there is sufficient information available to draw conclusions or to make assumptions about Zimmerman or any degree of quirkiness he might possess.

There is no rational basis that I can discern to either agree or disagree with my sentence regarding Zimmerman and the available information. There is no indication, as best I can discern, that I am making any assumptions about him or his degree of quirkiness. I did the best I could to convey my lack of assumption.

You are a thoughtful person. It is possible I am a bad communicater. It is possible my unexamined cognitive distortions lead me to think I am conveying objectivity when I am not,or even more significantly, that I delude myself that I am striving with some success in being objective when in fact I am exhibiting significant bias. It is possible your own cognitive distortions resulted in an inaccurate reading of my post. The most likely explanation is we both have unexamined cognitive distortions that influence both what we express and what we hear.

That is the norm. That is being human. It is the failure to examine that within ourselves that is dangerous.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 24 Mar 12 - 02:58 AM

Ah, Janie ~~ but that is the bug in all communication: part of Original Sin IMO.

As the academic character Professor Morris Zapp summarises it in David Lodge's academic novels ~~

"Every decoding is another encoding".

Should be the watchword of the structuralists, the post-structuralists, and all that crew: tghen they might not spend so much of their lives answering questions that no human being would ever dream of asking.

'Twas ever thus. No way out of it. And here on Mudcat, don't we ever see it in operation, in ♠♠♠♠♠♠♠!

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Mar 12 - 09:34 AM

Thanks for the clarification, SRS, it was all that was required. It leaves me with more of a puzzle though.

We also have different 'levels' of crime. Some being dealt with by Magistrates and some dealt with by judges and juries. But as I said earlier a crime is a crime is a crime and whatever level it is, it is still brought to court. The only exception is when the director of public prosecutions decides there is not enough evidence or little chance of gaining a conviction. That would almost never happen in the case of an unlawful killing. An inquest would decide if the killing was unlawful or not. If it was, then a complex legal procedure would then decide if the person killing the other was was to be tried for murder or manslaughter. Finaly the court woulld decide if the accused was guilty of whetevr crime they are charged with.

What seems to be happening here is that someone, possibly at police level, has decided that this man is not guilty of any crime, even though he has killed someone. In the UK that would not happen. Even if it was very obvious self defence, and that has happened 3 times near me recently, it is the coroner who advises the DPP whether to go ahead with a legal case or not.

I am asking these questions with a serious worry in mind - My cousin has just moved to Floria - To a gated community in fact. I don't want to go and visit him if someone else in that community decides that I am a stranger, they don't like the look of me and they know they can get away with killing me for no good reason!

Can anyone comment?

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 24 Mar 12 - 09:50 AM

Another case:

http://www.ksdk.com/news/article/311679/28/Iraq-War-veteran-killed-widow-says-Floridas-Stand-Your-Ground-law-is-free-pass-for-mu

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Mar 12 - 10:18 AM

I've been reading a lot of stuff on these "Castle (stand your ground) Laws" and what strikes me is that they all seem to imply that the killer can be the one who initiates the confrontation??? Even here in North Carolina the Mecklinburg Prosecutor says that if you feel threatened you have the right to kill someone... The fact that you started the altercation isn't relevant???

Summation: Kill anyone you want as lontg as you say you feel threatened and you're good to go???

There is no sanity here...

This kid didn't start this confrontation... He was just walking home... Yeah, maybe after being confronted, even attacked, by Zimmerman he tried to ***defend*** himself but without a gun he was at a disadvantage against an armed Zimmerman...

I wonder how this would have played out if it was Martin who had the gun and was attacked by an unarmed Zimmerman and shot Zimmerman??? Me thinks he would have been arrested and maybe even shot and killed by the police trying to arrest him...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Will Fly
Date: 24 Mar 12 - 10:24 AM

Dave the G - from what I've read of the circumstances, you'll be OK - you're white, aren't you.

Big Bill got it right all those years ago:

If you's white, you's alright.
If you're brown, stick around.
But if you're black - oh brother -
Get back, get back, get back.

Big Bill was a real 'Bluesman', by the way, not some arsehole aping one.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: bobad
Date: 24 Mar 12 - 10:45 AM

"Speaking publicly for the first time on Friday evening, Craig A. Sonner, Mr. Zimmerman's lawyer, said on CNN that he would not use the Stand Your Ground defense should his client be charged in the shooting. He said he would use self-defense."

NY Times

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Mar 12 - 10:49 AM

Stand your ground, self-defense??? Doesn't much matter as the basis of "stand your ground" is supposedly "self defense"...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 24 Mar 12 - 11:09 AM

But they are not entirely synonymous, Bobert. "Self defence" may subsume, "Stand your ground", but has many other connotations also.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: pdq
Date: 24 Mar 12 - 11:31 AM

Jeb Bush, who supported Stand Your Ground and signed it into law when he was governor of Florida, says that this case does not qualify. Once the watchman started following the suspect he was not standing his ground.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Mar 12 - 11:48 AM

I suspected that that might be so.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 25 Mar 12 - 09:58 AM

Obama:

"But my main message is to the parents of Trayvon Martin. You know, if I had a son, he'd look like Trayvon. And, you know, I think they are right to expect that all of us, as Americans, are going to take this with the seriousness it deserves and that we're going to get to the bottom of exactly what happened."


And now, let's ask "How low will they go?" You know the answer:


Gingrich:

"Is the president suggesting that if it had been a white kid who had been shot, that would be OK because he wouldn't look like him? It's just nonsense. Dividing this country up – it is a tragedy this young man was shot."

Santorum:

"What the president of the United States should do is try to bring people together, not use these types of horrible tragic individual cases to try to drive a wedge in America."

Romney and Paul, the grownups in the Republican room for the moment, did not criticize the President.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 25 Mar 12 - 10:21 AM

I missed this part of G's remarks:

"What the president said, in a sense, is disgraceful. It's not a question of who that young man looked like."

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Mar 12 - 10:42 AM

I agree that I find the remarks of Gingrich and Santorum almost incredible. Certainly discreditable.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Mar 12 - 10:46 AM

Gingrich and Santorum are not only speaking to their constituencies but FOR their constituencies.... which is a big reason these sorts of incidents recur in the "non-racist" U.S. of A.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: catspaw49
Date: 25 Mar 12 - 10:54 AM

30,000 people show up in a pissant Florida town to show their support for ANYONE who will process an obvious hate crime and Newtie accuses the President of driving a wedge.............

Sadly Greg, you have it right.



Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 25 Mar 12 - 11:41 AM

"I did my best, when choosing the words I used in my post, to convey that I do not think there is sufficient information available to draw conclusions or to make assumptions about Zimmerman or any degree of quirkiness he might possess. "

Cheers for the clarification Janie, I guess I misread / misinterpreted your meaning there.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: catspaw49
Date: 25 Mar 12 - 01:38 PM

I see now that Zimmerman now has a group of backers. They differ from Trayvon Martin's supporters in many ways although there are similarities. For instance, while Trayvon supporters wear hoodies the Zimmerman contingent just wear hoods.........................​...


Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Wesley S
Date: 25 Mar 12 - 02:24 PM

The Republican presidential candidates HAVE to say something that opposes the President - no matter what he says. If Obama says the sun will rise in the east tomorrow Newt will claim that Obama is looking toward Europe for inspiration and "Sanatorium" will make a reference to the President being a Muslim. To agree with the President on ANYTHING will risk losing their base supporters.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: catspaw49
Date: 25 Mar 12 - 02:25 PM

Which they share with Zimmerman...................

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Mar 12 - 02:26 PM

I'm surprised, Spaw - I always thought that in the "New South" tha Klan wore business suits instead of hoods.

Maybe its a nostalgia thing for the good old days when you could do whatever you wanted with your human property.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: catspaw49
Date: 25 Mar 12 - 05:30 PM

I thinkyou're right Greg. Many of them drive Diesels for the same reason........the smell of the kerosene and all.....very moving.....


Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 25 Mar 12 - 06:01 PM

""What the president said, in a sense, is disgraceful. It's not a question of who that young man looked like.""

Not in Gingrich's mind perhaps (though that is open to question), but it was certainly in Zimmerman's mind and may have been his motivation.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Mar 12 - 06:06 PM

200