BS: Onward Christian Soldiers

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 10:05 PM

Now HERE'S a Christian soldier leading his troops into battle:

"The Trump campaign released a statement Monday afternoon declaring his commitment to preventing Muslim immigration. The campaign justifies this discrimination by saying that large segments of the Muslim population bear "great hatred toward Americans.""

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,Olddude
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 10:34 PM

I would not use the word Christian regarding him. Crazy bastard maybe

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Dec 15 - 02:29 AM

The reaction to Trump from others in the presidential race do give some comfort. The man relies on our deep id instinct rather than our considered persona.

Pete is wrong. Belief in anything comes from having to be taught it. Children have to be susceptible to what goes on around them, it is an instinctive survival mode honed over millions of years. (If you bend and look with a double mirror, you can still make out the star fish we share ancestry with.)

The most wonderful gift my parents gave me was the encouragement to learn how to think, not what to think. Something I tried to instil in my own children. Curiously, it didn't lead to any of being superstitious. So much for the influence of something not actually there.

It's one thing to have a pop at the malign influence of the other person's faith but to put your own forward as being better? It's faith as an organised tool that is the problem. The only one on here professing faith who makes any sense is Dan.

It's about you and him, not him and me. Cos I don't see him on my invite list.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 08 Dec 15 - 02:37 AM

Why be down on ALL Christians??...I mean.......

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Dec 15 - 04:15 AM

Mr Trump's remarks have nothing to do with religion and everything to do with politics.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Dec 15 - 08:35 AM

Do you agree with him then?

I feel queasy again.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Dec 15 - 08:48 AM

Here's several more proud Christian soldiers, supported in their views by millions of other self-declared Christians:

Ted Cruz, Twitter warrior, played soldier all weekend in Iowa, spouting "We will carpet bomb them into oblivion." (Shades of Curtis LeMay)

Marco Rubio took to Fox News to remind Americans that they are, or should be, "really scared and worried."

Jeb Bush said on Fox News Monday morning: "The idea that somehow there are radical elements in every religion is ridiculous."

Hey Goofus, ask these folks and their supporters: "Why be down on ALL Muslims?"

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Bill D
Date: 08 Dec 15 - 11:39 AM

We have at least 4... maybe 6 or 7... of the Republican candidates (NOT including Trump) whose primary basis for decision making is rooted in fundamental Christianity. You can imagine what would happen to the 1st Amendment if one of them were elected and appointed several SCOTUS members.

It's not that all Republicans are like that, but many Republicans will shrug at shredding of the 1st Amendment if they also get guns and protection for corporations and strict immigration policies also. (and several other things)

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Dec 15 - 12:06 PM

"
It's not that all Republicans are like that, but many Republicans will shrug at shredding of the 1st Amendment if they also get guns and protection for corporations and strict immigration policies also. (and several other things"

Bill, I just don't understand why these things are linked to Evangelical Christianity.

You guys seems to have social issues hard wired to political issues. over hear there as many Labour supporters as there are Conservative supporters amongst people of faith.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Dec 15 - 12:21 PM

Guest 8:35 am......must be something you ate.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Dec 15 - 12:24 PM

I just don't understand why these things are linked to Evangelical Christianity.

We know, Ake, its patently obvious. For Christ's sake, look it up; plenty information available.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Dec 15 - 12:41 PM

Dear defenders of the faith,

Have you ever considered that you may only be half right, but then again for all the wrong reasons?

Well you should.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,Peter from seven stars link
Date: 08 Dec 15 - 01:06 PM

Which faith, donuel, the Christian or the atheists faith ?    I almost feel ashamed at how poorly I compare with the militant atheists on here.   I mean, they take every opportunity to promote their faith and attack mine. Very rarely are these arguments begun by the Christians here.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Dec 15 - 01:12 PM

" I mean, they take every opportunity to promote their faith and attack mine. "
Isn't that what all religions do - and always have done?
Seem to remember that The Church of England came into being to the smell of burning Catholics.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Dec 15 - 01:15 PM

atheists faith

pete, the master of the oxymoron.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,Pete from seven stars link
Date: 08 Dec 15 - 01:48 PM

Guest says I am wrong, however there have been studies done that indicate that even in cultures not amenable to divine creation and design that children still recognise it. Dawkins even acknowledged it, and in a classic piece of wordplay doublespeak said.       " I am thoroughly happy with believing that children are predisposed to believe in invisible gods-I always was. But I also find the indoctrination hypothesis plausible. The two influences could, and I suspect do , reinforce one another ".            To their credit, new scientist 7feb09 ask. "If children have an innate belief in god, however,where does that leave the indoctrination hypothesis ?"               I don't think I am far off the mark in believing that many of the professed atheists here are far from confident in their claims, and are more in opposition to God than lacking evidence for him. Their aggressive words tend to reinforce that conclusion.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Dec 15 - 02:09 PM

Pete. What the studies I have seen show is that human beings are susceptible to seeing agency in inanimate objects. At a trivial level it could be swearing at the car because it won't start. No god in that, but how about when a thunderstorm spoils the harvest for the third time, or the sun won't shine on it? Having invented a god the idea of divine creation is but a small step when one needs a story about where we came from.

Other people being superstitious does not validate one's own superstition. Usually the contrary - it presents a threat.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Wesley S
Date: 08 Dec 15 - 02:14 PM

"atheists faith. pete, the master of the oxymoron."

Not really. Both believers in some sort of higher power - aka "God" -    and those who don't believe in one at all have the same amount of facts to back up their claim. None at all. That's why both atheists and believers can be said to have "faith" in the correctness of their claims.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,#
Date: 08 Dec 15 - 03:19 PM

If you want the inside track on Daesh, do yourself a favour and watch the following.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KovpPJULvgk

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Dec 15 - 03:27 PM

So.. Knowing that Christianity is a man made fantasy is in itself a belief system?

Methinks the superstitious on here are covering their own embarrassment by pulling rational thinking down to their level.

Baa Baa.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,#
Date: 08 Dec 15 - 03:29 PM

That reporter's talk is the most coherent and enlightened 'view' I have ever seen regarding this fiasco in Syria.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,Peter from seven stars link
Date: 08 Dec 15 - 04:12 PM

Yes guest, it is. because, unless you can demonstrate it to be a made up fantasy, it is your belief that it is.   Also, because your own account of how we got here is a made up fantasy.   And as observational science does not demonstrate it, and in fact proposes processes contrary to observational science I have no hesitation in saying that . So although Wesley says correctly that both theists and atheists have faith , I would say the atheist needs more of it !       And guest just because someone else has superstious notions. ...like those contrary to observational science....don't mean that my belief system is superstitious and unreasonable.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,Peter from seven stars link
Date: 08 Dec 15 - 04:25 PM

I watched the vid #, . Certainly observations that need noting , but whether he has an idea that would work, I don't know.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Dec 15 - 05:00 PM

Great clip, Bruce. However, the comments section are also quite revealing regarding the idiots of this world.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Dec 15 - 05:02 PM

And as observational science does not demonstrate it, and in fact proposes processes contrary to observational science I have no hesitation in saying that.

Utter gibberish.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 08 Dec 15 - 06:33 PM

"Probably no such thing as an atheist kid either, at least not till it's taught them. Till then they are likely to instinctively believe in a maker rather than the superstitious idea of self generated life ."

I hadn't really thought about this until you started spouting your ignorant bullshit, Pete. But, thinking back, I realise that all of the religious nonsense that was aimed at me as a child just sort of bounced off as though I was made of teflon or something. I have never believed in God - never ever!

If you want me to believe in God, then you first have to supply me with some evidence that he exists. But you can't supply any such evidence, can you, Pete?

But then I forgot ... you don't know what the word 'evidence' means, do you, Pete?

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Dec 15 - 06:58 PM

"Not really. Both believers in some sort of higher power - aka "God" -    and those who don't believe in one at all have the same amount of facts to back up their claim. None at all. That's why both atheists and believers can be said to have "faith" in the correctness of their claims."

No they can't. The one thing that you're right about in this mass of nebulous thinking is that we have no facts to support the assertion that God almost certainly does not exist (that's the correct atheistic position, by the way). Now the reason that this position is not one of faith, but one of reason, is as follows. Say Wesley and I are in the pub, arguing over a pint or five, and the talk turns to matters of faith. Out of the blue, Wesley asserts that he saw a heart-shaped spaceship made out of pink marzipan covered with icing sugar. As it hovered over his house, a two-foot tall spaceman with three heads stood on top of the icing and shouted "wibble wibble wibble", once out of each of his mouths, at Wesley. Then the fellow hopped back inside and the spaceship disappeared in a cloud of diamond dust. I tell Wesley that what he saw was an impossibility. Marzipan is an unsuitable material for making spaceships out of, as the whole thing would catch fire or drop to bits as the vessel surged through the atmosphere, etc. Wesley gets upset and tells me not to insult his conviction that what he saw was true and that my denial of it is a matter of faith. He accuses me, quite rightly, of having no facts with which to refute his claim. Worse than that, no facts to that effect will ever be available to me. I can never demonstrate that he never saw what he said he saw, in other words. So let's introduce a neutral third party to the conversation. He hears us both out, and almost certainly comes to a decision that one of us of us is clearly deluded, insane even. Or maybe one over the eight, as we were in the boozer, after all. I'll give you one guess.

Yet the story has a number of advantages over the Godly assertion. Marzipan and icing certainly exist. Very tasty. Space travel is known to be feasible, and it isn't beyond the bounds that there could be three-headed aliens somewhere in the universe. But the story fails to stack up on several grounds unless we agree to suspend the laws of physics. No-one in their right mind would ever say that my taking against Wesley's yarn was a matter of faith. It is a matter of knowing the laws of nature, knowing what they do and don't permit and applying reason. That's the very opposite of faith, which is a position which requires no considered thought at all, just meek acceptance. My evidence against is the laws of nature. Wesley's evidence for is witness, which isn't actually evidence at all (unless he has photos which are a damn sight more convincing than Loch Ness Monster or flying saucer ones, of course). Ahah, say the faithful, but there may be laws of nature we haven't discovered yet. Sadly, the more science accumulates evidence, the less likely it is that a catastrophic overturning of the laws will happen. Not impossible, but let's say we've been waiting for an awful long time now for any law that would allow a supernatural being to exist. Which doesn't mean he doesn't, or that he can't make up his own laws. But we really are going way beyond even Wesley's marzipan fantasy now. No faith required to dismiss the notion, just reason. It's about time yer man showed his hand, I reckon. He could put this to bed once and for all, and I may have to eat my hat.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Dec 15 - 07:18 PM

I believe Steve can doubt a remarkable sighting. Even Westley can doubt what he saw and believed to be marzipan.

However a defender of the faith (Isis or Christis) will find it impossible to think see or feel outside their faith and will defend to the point of war to irrationally prove it.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Dec 15 - 07:30 PM

"...there have been studies done that indicate that even in cultures not amenable to divine creation and design that children still recognise it."

This is a pure manifestation of weasel words. What studies, please? How were they done? What "cultures"? What is "not amenable to divine creation" supposed to mean? Which children, of what ages, what sample sizes and in what proportions?

My view is that this alleged natural predisposition to superstition (for that's what we're talking about) has yet to be demonstrated. It sounds like an excuse to me, invented by people with ulterior motives to fool us into thinking that 'tis not they who inculcate pernicious ideas into children's minds but, instead, it's some kind of natural propensity we all have for suspending disbelief. Well I want to see the evidence for that. Being scared of the dark or being nervously vigilant when moving around an area with lots of hiding places have the evolutionary advantage of protecting us. Belief in supernatural beings, including gods, ghosts, goblins, angels, fairies and leprechauns must be implanted, and I can't think of any evolutionary advantage in it. When these notions are manipulated by a certain kind of person they become instruments of control. Fully fledged, they become religious belief, the most pernicious thing of all.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: olddude
Date: 08 Dec 15 - 07:39 PM

I am very sorry you guys feel that way, faith works fine with me. But free will is important. If not believing really make you feel that happy I am very pleased for you and really am. My faith no matter what you think does make me happy also so it's live and let live. No preaching from me. I have enough problem keeping myself on the right path in this life. Never confuse faith for religion, not the same thing

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Dec 15 - 07:49 PM

"I believe Steve can doubt a remarkable sighting. Even Westley can doubt what he saw and believed to be marzipan."

Well doubt is as much as I can do. I can't disprove the story, just doubt it, but doubt's a useless word unless qualified. So I doubt the story almost to the point of impossibility. Using evidence and reason, my assessment is that the likelihood of the story being true is vanishingly small. My whole point is that I have not arrived at that conclusion via faith.

A few years ago, I reported here that I once saw ball lightning moving over the houses in my street then disappearing into Epping Forest. There is no doubt in mind that any other explanation for what I saw was not feasible. The thing is, I have no evidence. Witness is not evidence unless corroborated, and even then convincing corroboration is quite difficult to achieve. There's no way I can persuade anyone that I saw ball lightning, or even that ball lightning exists at all. Yet the phenomenon has been reported many times, and many independent accounts (try YouTube) chime quite well with each other. There's a long way to go before the phenomenon becomes universally acknowledged as true. I suppose it would be superfluous to suggest that, even so, it has a lot more going for it than God has, the main difference being that it has yet to attract advocates who see it as a potential instrument of control. Just scientists, that's all. The world can seem upside down at times.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 08 Dec 15 - 08:30 PM

Well without sounding like I am preaching, I certainly am not ... The creator is all good, perfect light of all things that everyone born can see. The Lords is perfect truth. Now what better way to drive good people away from God and the truth than to infiltrate religion with evil. Catholic priest pedophiles, TV preachers calling for guns against Muslims etc. That is a perfect way to accomplish the task, to drive people away from the lord. I refuse to let them. I, like you and so many have run into evil religious leaders and very good religious leaders. However, no one can lead anyone to God, they must find God themselves.

Now does science contradict God. Not for me. You folks know my knowledge of mathematics and it is extensive. There is no random events in the universe from dark matter to sub atomic particles. To create such perfect order in such chaos only strengthens my belief.

There is no perfect proof of God, but from my observations, nothing else can explain it. More importantly I see God every time I look at my grand-baby. Anyway, that's my path. You guys find or found yours. Either way I call you friends even if I do rattle you up in jest at times. I am not really the redneck only guy who plays with guns and fishes.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Dec 15 - 08:39 PM

All that remains now for you, then, is to explain the thing that is the only thing you see as being able to explain everything. I'd far sooner keep looking than propose an inexplicable, unseen, rule-breaking being who never shows himself except in the more fanciful flights of imagination. Still, that's just me. It looks like your quest has ended, so you can stop thinking now.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: olddude
Date: 08 Dec 15 - 08:49 PM

Ah but the science fun is looking at the building blocks that put it all together. Amazing math that we are now seeing such small steps.

God does show himself, just look hard or not. You won't see a burning bush but you may see it in the laughing face of a child or the sound of a great song. If it was easy we would not have to be here. Anyway it's a personal path we follow. No leaders, they just tend to fuck it up anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: olddude
Date: 08 Dec 15 - 08:53 PM

Oh don't mention ball lightning to my wife, I blew up my microwave making it one night as an experiment. It worked but melted my microwave. The plasma ball was hot

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Dec 15 - 09:19 PM

I studied and practiced 7 different religions over 8 years to experience them from the inside out.

What I discovered was profound and enlightening.

----
Steve what the children 'experience' is a kind of hypnosis phenomena that is both mentally and somatically significant and real.
----

I will respond in PM to anyone actually interested in my unique journey beyond the Power of the Myth.

I believe the lengthy tale of my discovery is but a lost scroll in the wind of this thread except for very unique individuals and reasons previously stated.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: olddude
Date: 08 Dec 15 - 09:26 PM

Some time if you want, Iwwill tell you
About the time I technically died from a clot in my lung. Doc was blown awaywwhenI ttold him
About the events that occurred

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Joe Offer
Date: 08 Dec 15 - 10:04 PM

Here's an example of the religious voice in my community. You'll note that the majority of the pastors who signed this letter are women, and the principal signer (and probably the author) is a lesbian Unitarian minister, married to her co-pastor. Other faiths represented are Baha'i, Buddhism, and various "mainline" Christian denominations. I think this is what religious faith is supposed to be about. I think these pastors say it very well:

To the Editor, Auburn Journal:

This past week, like far too many weeks, has been discouraging and disheartening. Lives were lost, while others were violently and abruptly disrupted. As religious leaders and members of Clergy Voice of Placer People of Faith Together, we hold space for the anger, grief, worry, and heartbreak that these events create. But we can't do that alone. We, the People, in order to form a more perfect Union, need to come together.
There is a small, yet powerful percentage of people who choose violence to create fear and division. When we react in fear with labels, often delineating race or religion, making another human being the "other," when we lump any group of people together, creating false divisions of "them" and "us," then those who enact devastating violence achieve their goal.
Each of us, including our elected officials, have a moral obligation to choose thoughtfully, not rashly, how to lift up the values of the U.S. As communities and as a country, it is well past time to address the many underlying causes of shootings that occur in the U.S. and abroad, and to do so now.
Rather than beat the drums of war, let us turn our swords into plowshares in this season of peace. We need to create and support systems of immigration and sanctuary that require thorough background checks, and have space in our county, state, and country for those who, like so many of us and our families, choose to make a home here.
We need adequate services to provide mental health care, shelter, clean water, and a safer, saner, more responsible approach to the acquisition of firearms.
In this time of many different religious and social celebrations of darkness and light, of hope and possibility, may our commitment and courage outweigh our despair and our compassion outweigh our cynicism. May we reach out to one another with care rather than fear.

In faith, Rev. Lynn Gardner, Auburn (California)
Rev. Wendy Bartel, Rev. Daniel Spacek, Rev. Janice Steele, Rev. Judith Morgado, Rev. Carol Carter, Rev. Gerry Paulsen, the Very Reverend Cliff Haggenjos, Pastor Evyonne Simpkins, Rev. Linda Kelly, Pastor Charlane Lines, Rev. Dr. David Davidson-Methot, Gary McAnally.

I'm proud to a member of the board of directors of Placer People of Faith Together.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 08 Dec 15 - 10:13 PM

Well, when your heart stops and you see the docs working on you and you see the light and the tunnel and you hear the voices of angels and see your family and when the Lord tells you not yet my child, you still have work to do, but there are things you needed to learn. It changes you completely. I also described to the doc exactly what he did when working on me and exactly what tie he was wearing when he ran to the room and repeated his words exactly ... All while my heart was stopped. It changes you. Life does not end .. but like I said some religious leaders who are evil will do anything to drive people away from God. Jihad to destroy Islam, pedophiles to destroy Catholics, violence and intolerance to drive Jews away and it goes on, greed, murder.. God is God. I follow Jesus, but God is God ... evil will do anything to take people away from the creator. My thoughts anyway for what they are worth. Each finds their own path to follow, faith or no faith it is entirely up to the path one wishes to choose It doesn't mean those without faith are evil or those with faith are evil. It means the path is split and fee will determines it.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Bill D
Date: 08 Dec 15 - 10:25 PM

Ake said back up there ^

" I just don't understand why these things are linked to Evangelical Christianity."

Because at least 4 of the candidates, Cruz, Huckabee, Carson & Fiorina... as well as Rick Santorum, who has dropped out.... have said as much, and have actively courted Evangelical Christian votes by asserting their faith as their driving force.
Several others have reaffirmed 'almost' those views, but in less obvious ways.

*IF* someone bases their political decisions on their religious beliefs, they WILL inevitably try to repress the views of those who hold other religious views - or none at all.

John Kennedy was Catholic, but he managed to separate his religion from his office.... like the Constitution says. Obama is a Christian, but he does not insert his faith into decisions.

There are more examples on both sides

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: olddude
Date: 08 Dec 15 - 10:46 PM

Political religion is for power and corruption. One can only come to God on a personal level and worldly stuff is not appropriate or desired. How about that render to Cesar quote they forget. Faith is private and personal. Does not mean people can't go to a church but it is for personal inspiration not worldly power. It's all wrong to do so I think

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,Musket of the original variety
Date: 09 Dec 15 - 02:55 AM

Faith is your lapdog.

You stroke it, feed it and in return for nourishing it, it makes you feel good.

But it tends to bite other people and never leave it alone with children.

Dan has his creed. It's his, personal and it's very generous of him to share it. Others tell of how their creed is something relevant to others whether they want it or not.

I question Dan's love of firearms and I doubt that fish was quite as big as he said it was, but he is comfortable with his own take on metaphysical matters and distinguishes between personal faith and the cancer known as organised religion.

Top man.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,turnd
Date: 09 Dec 15 - 03:15 AM

Steve Shaw writes good, but how can we know if he is good? He comes across likely to do the right thing when called upon. You might say you could trust him by what he says, his word. That's faith.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Dec 15 - 03:24 AM

Good post, Musket. And, despite my fencing with him, I agree heartily with whatt you say about Dan. He's abysmally wrong about one thing, however:

"Each finds their own path to follow, faith or no faith it is entirely up to the path one wishes to choose."

Most people of faith haven't been allowed to find their own path but are welded to the rails of someone else's path. Their task is not to find faith for themselves, but it could well be to struggle to free themselves from someone else's faith.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 09 Dec 15 - 05:02 AM

I have to confess that I find religion - of any flavour - to be completely baffling. I didn't understand it as a child and I don't understand it now, as a 67 year old adult.

I was travelling on a bus the other day and it stopped outside an old church. The church was a substantial stone built structure - probably built around 150 years ago. It was all locked up - with steel grilles on all the windows - and I would guess that someone had turned the key, in the lock of the substantial wooden door, for the final time, a generation or two ago. Outside was a board - originally painted red with gold lettering - now weathered to a sort of reddish brown colour with the gold paint peeling off. The board gave the name of the church, the denomination (some sort of non-conformist outfit), times of various services and the name of the resident minister (the "Rev. Fred Smith" or something).

All I could think was: what a waste! What a waste of money, time, energy, land, stone and craftsmanship (I hope the masons got paid well). All that effort so that a handful of people could turn up once or twice on a Sunday to perform meaningless rituals and make obeisance to a (probably) non-existent deity. Humans are a peculiar species! It's time we locked up all of the churches for the final time, learn how to confront reality - with all its messiness and uncertainty - and start to learn how to live on this planet without destroying it!

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Dec 15 - 05:39 AM

Thanks for sharing your experience olddude.
Many have reported similar.
Good to see you posting again.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Dec 15 - 06:44 AM

You'll never know, turnd, without further evidence. I can tell you that I'm not a serial killer or a baby eater, but I wouldn't believe any of it without evidence. The only person in the whole Bible who got it right was doubting Thomas, and most of the buggers who wrote those gospels didn't even mention him and his deficit of blind faith. Awkward customers are not welcomed by Christianity!

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Dec 15 - 07:08 AM

Most people of faith haven't been allowed to find their own path but are welded to the rails of someone else's path.

From comments here, and those of my most outspokenly athiest friends, I think that should be 'Most practicing Roman Catholics haven't...". People brought up in other denominations and faiths seem to be able to drift off the rails without great feelings of resentment.

Those nuns and priests must be really cruel.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 09 Dec 15 - 07:57 AM

I have to admit these Christians have some good songs. I'm just listening to Marilyn Middleton Pollock singing Bringing In The Sheaves. Brilliant.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Dec 15 - 09:24 AM

Old Dude, it has always been evident to me even in various but brief posts of yours that the currents within you run deep.

You are indeed experienced in the true sense of the question we all heard in the sixties.

I see many here have come to similar conclusions in an overview of religion by corrupt self proclaimed leaders, but not al as Joe has documented.

The goals in war bear some resemblance to religion and vice versa.

In war the goal is treasure and real estate while using a religion as a justification for bloodshed and vengeance.

I am not saying war is all religious or religion is all war but that the goals in war and religion walk the same path in times of organized violence.

this is ture of Isis which uses a democratization of killing units justified by religion